Are we winning one with Henderson or a different keeper?
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Are we winning one with Henderson or a different keeper?
Not convinced Henderson is the answer, but as has been mentioned above he is a better fit and possibly deserves a proper go at it. He looked decent in his run at the back end of last season and potentially could be very good for us.
Personally though I think we should go for Sanchez from Brighton, looks like he ticks all the boxes.
I have question marks over whether Henderson is the correct long term option. However, I am certain De Gea is not the correct option in either the short or the long term and as such I would play Henderson if the question was put to me today (or 6 months ago or 12 months ago for that matter). I think the data backs that view up as well. The sample of games last season with Henderson in goal saw the teams best form over the past few years and saw us generally speaking defend well much better as the team were more comfortable playing higher up the pitch and compressing the game. He made mistakes as with any young goalkeeper and I'm certainly not saying he's exceptional in any area but that's been my point throughout; in a number of different critical areas of goalkeeping you only have to be very average to be considerably better than De Gea and due to those limitations I don't see us being a successful team with him in goal unless we were to return to the Mourinho approach of defending deep and compressing the space between goalkeeper/centre back/holding midfield.
In terms of the next transfer window, I agree with most views that we have a number of players who need to be replaced. I made a post a few days ago showing a number of goalkeepers who had changed clubs for £20m or less over the past couple of seasons to show that replacing De Gea doesn't have to be a ridiculous expense. As we need to make so many changes to the team over the summer I would be relatively comfortable with going into next season with Henderson in goal, much more so than I would with De Gea, but whether or not I have the confidence he would nail down the position to a point where I wouldn't be looking to replace him for 23/24 I don't know. It's very difficult to say as in fairness to Henderson his progression when playing regular football for Shrewsbury, Sheffield United in both the Championship and Premier League was exceptional and for a young goalkeeper he did very well overall last season once he integrated into our team given we had very different expectations for a goalkeeper to Sheffield United (for example almost every ball went long there whereas we look to pass out from the back, despite that they were very comfortable passing back to him, much more so than we currently are to De Gea). I know it's easy to remember the mistakes against AC Milan and Liverpool but they were no worse than things De Gea has done this season but people want him to be our player of the season, so I think there is a relative double standard emerging and I'm not sure why.
So to answer your question, I think replacing De Gea has to be a priority at the soonest possible point and if we don't have the funds to stretch this summer then we have an in house option who both in terms of the eye test and statistically is a much better fit for the team.
Henderson's strengths are De Gea's weaknesses and De Gea's Strengths are Hendersons weaknesses.
We need a new goalkeeper. I'm not sure about Henderson - he seems like a goalkeeper that may let in more goals directly compared to De Gea but at the same time help the defenders in front of him get better.
If We get a new one to be more sure - they could literally be Barthez rather than a Van der Sar, which leaves us sticking to De Gea anyway.
Our goalkeeper is a very tough important position to sort out.
If it’s Newcastle, I expect £40m-£50m ‘’minimum’’.
The Alisson/Ederson comparisons are pretty irrelevant, to be fair. They are not part of the solution space. Henderson does some things better than DDG and other things worse. I don't think you can quantify with any kind of certainty, which of these two goalkeepers would be best for us going forward. Henderson has also only played 13 league games for us so far - quite a small number of games to judge him on.
Also, it is Henderson that another club is supposedly interested in, so we need to consider the pros and cons of selling him - not De Gea. If the situation was that there was a generous offer for DDG, I would quite be open to that if the price was right.
Bang on
Using the sample size of his full season at Sheffield United in the Premier League and the 26 games played for us last season it isn't that difficult to conclude upon which goalkeeper is the best option for us at all really. I gave the stats relative to ball retention, crosses and sweeping in my previous post but even if we were to use De Gea's favourite statistic of % of shots saved, Henderson takes it as he was at 76% in 20/21 and 75.2% in 19/20, whereas De Gea is at 72.5% this season, 67.1% in 20/21, 73.6% in 19/20 and 71.8% in 18/19.
There is no doubt De Gea is more likely to pull off a wonder save but the reality is that so many of those wonder saves are born out of incredibly poor goalkeeping the first instance, be it not collecting a ball coming into the area, not claiming a cross or simply giving the ball away poorly (Brighton at home for example, brilliant save but also completely unnecessary if he doesn't panic in the first instance and give the ball away).
So if Henderson is sold for £30/40m and we are going to use that money to sign a goalkeeper then fine, but if we're going to sell him and promote Heaton or sign Johnstone to be number 2 to De Gea then it's pointless. There aren't really any pro's to selling him if we don't use that money to replace De Gea.
He might get a chance if ETH comes here.
The man likes ball playing GK's that can support a highline and that are good sweepers. David isn't any of this. Hendo is more adventurous.
He might yet stay here
The man likes ball playing GK's that can support a highline and that are good sweepers. David isn't any of this. Hendo is more adventurous.
He might yet stay here
His role was probably very different in Sheffield United, I would guess. Can't imagine he was asked to play out from the back a lot, although I could be wrong. The 'shots saved' statistics really just show the value of these kind of stats - no way is Henderson a better shot stopper than De Gea.
As for the transfer options, I don't agree that it only makes sense to sell if we buy another keeper. In the scenario you mention, where we sell Henderson and use Heaton as our no. 2 we would have those £30/40m to invest in areas of the team, where they can make a real impact, without selling anyone from our starting 11. That would be my preferred scenario. Improving our goalkeeper doesn't crack the top 5 our of current squad issues, in my opinion.
Don't think we will see eye to eye on this, which is fine of course
Will be interesting to see what happens.
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In theory it might show that Henderson tends to face lower quality shots, as the opposition aren't creating as many good chances as what they do when De Gea is in goal.
It should be. Its been mentioned before, but you look at the top managers like Pep and Klopp, and the one thing they wanted to sort out was the spine of their team and it started with their goalkeeper.
They both got it wrong initially (With Bravo and Karius). they rectified it by not going 'cheap'. If you want to play a certain way, the goalkeeper is a big part of it. Because it means your defence is not twisting and turning to try to avoid using the goalkeeper.
Weve seen Ederson and Allison, make mistakes or have runs of mistakes, but overall, theyre tenure has been a huge success at their clubs and was an extra push to getting trophies (the major ones). Neither at their peak are better than DDG at shot stopping. However what they give you is more of a command of the box and better communication with the defence when compared to DDG (so thats one con but two major pros)
And then both are miles better at distribution (heck you see Ederson getting assists). You even see Allison scoring...
But DDG has been a good servant for us. But we need to move on. Whether Henderson is the answer we wont know, cos he hasnt had a run. Maybe hes more Lindegaard than anything. We really should be playing him with the season 'done'. We havent seen him enough to know. If we dont think hes better than DDG, we ought to sell him. (If thats the case, we should be selling both somehow).
Apparently he was wanted on Loan by Ajax in the past?
Was this whilst Ten Hag was manager?
Whilst I don't know if Henderson is good enough & wouldn't mind a new GK signing - Ten Hag wanting Henderson gives me hope that De Gea maybe dropped next season for his lack of proactive action as a goalkeeper.
Was this whilst Ten Hag was manager?
Whilst I don't know if Henderson is good enough & wouldn't mind a new GK signing - Ten Hag wanting Henderson gives me hope that De Gea maybe dropped next season for his lack of proactive action as a goalkeeper.
So it is Dave's fault why our defence play badly and allow chances? With Henderson they all raise their game? How exactly that works?
It was - but that may have been more of the case that he was the best available option at that time.
I do think DDG will need to step his kicking up though to survive under ETH. No way will he be happy with these long straight downfield kicks right to the opposition.
The GK is the least of our problems IMO
Do you think that’s possible? Surely if he could use the ball any better he’d be doing it already?
Our number 2 GK really has to be a ball playing keeper. The new manager should have the option to use that option even if its not someone top class. You can't not have a single keeper capable to playing out from the back. Under Ole and his random style of football it didn't matter but ETH will need a new keeper even if it's a young talent or someone of a slightly lower level.
DDG actually need to grow a pair and be brave all other things like kicking and being better on the ball can still be worked upon but I think it might be too late for DeGea to change now it most probably would be his last season with us.
Depends really, are our current management actually bothered about it? have they told him he needs to work on it?
Under LVG I remember him being fairly comfortable on the ball, I never used to think he was 'bad' at kicking. Since Mourinho though he was clearly told to just hoof it and he seems to have lost it.
As you say maybe he's a bit too long in the tooth now to get it back. It'll be interesting to see, you'd think if we have more possession+control over games then having a better shot stopper will be less important.
I wouldn't be surprised if Henderson does get the nod eventually, or even both of them leave and he gets a new keeper all together.
Possibly. I don't think his bravery will ever improve as he's just not an aggressive person, but his kicking can definitely be worked on.
It isn't even his technique that is the problem, i'd say it's more our team just don't have any automation in terms of building from the back.
Our centre backs aren't dropping quickly and splitting, we don't have a designated midfielder to drop in and receive it, our fullbacks are often not in the right position or ready to make a good angle.
All things that can be coached to improve. Most importantly though it's the speed we get the ball from defence to midfield that needs to improve.
We are SO hesitant that we end up getting boxed in then either lose it or lump it. We get counter pressed very easily.
One of the [many] positions that Pep tinkered around with a few times before settling was GK. Same with Klopp, actually. We've got a lot of issues but it'll be interesting to see how Ten Hag deals with De Gea/Henderson/new keeper.
DDG is not very vocal and his lack of organisation and command of his defence is obvious.
A goalkeeper who is better at organisation and positioning himself is going to make chances faced appear easier. This is exactly where VDS excelled. This is one of the areas where Henderson is also better than DDG, he's more vocal and commanding, his organisation is better and it leads to less clear cut chances faced.
And the defenders can play further up the pitch almost in the position of our midfielders do right now.
It becomes much more of a problem with ETH's appointment. As with a side like City, his goalkeeper being good on the ball is crucial to the way Ajax have played under him.
Oh god, are people still going on about fecking Dean Henderson
He was poor when he played, lost his place, but apparantly he's the glue that holds everything together
He was poor when he played, lost his place, but apparantly he's the glue that holds everything together
Gk, defensive coach and playmaker. Henderson is the name. Dean Henderson.Oh god, are people still going on about fecking Dean Henderson
He was poor when he played, lost his place, but apparantly he's the glue that holds everything together
Whether or not DDG is good enough is doesn't mean the answer should be Henderson in goal. Should have flogged him for £30m when his stock was high last season.
My guess is it'll be a summer 2023 problem to solve. Henderson isn't all that good to give enough push for a new manager to drop De Gea over his ball playing ability, while we have more pressing issues (CF, DM, RW). Can't all be done in 1 window and I think the logical thing is delaying GK til 2023.
There's a slight difference here, just a tiny one, which happens to be that City and Liverpool both had fecking awful goalkeepers. Joe Hart was an absolute disaster, the only reason he wasn't battered in the press was because at the time he was the england goalkeeper and not Jose Hart. The press somehow didn't understand the reasons behind needing a new goalkeeper, but apart from looking solid early on he never looked good enough, and his fortunes after leaving City should be more than sufficient proof of that.
We, on the other hand, have a goalkeeper with limitations, which are obvious but still blown out of proportion on this forum, but he's still overall solid. There's no immediate need to spend big money on replacing either him or Henderson. not entirely sure how anyone can look at our squad and then go "yup, we certainly need to prioritize bringing in a goalkeeper". It is going to be rather expensive to overhaul, and there's far more important areas to focus on: Central midfielder, striker, fullback.
Quite easily.
DDG is poor at communicating, leading to the defence being more disorganised ahead of him. He's terrible at coming for crosses and otherwise dominating his box, leading to more chances created in that area that a more pro-active keeper would have shut down before the ball even got to the opposition player. He also sits very deep, which means that a) there's more room for opposition players to run into, and b) the defence themselves having to sit deeper meaning it's easier for opposition players to get on the ball closer to the goal. Overall, De Gea definitely plays a part in why we concede so many good chances.
He was poor? He had about three poor games, but overall he was miles better than De Gea was last season (or that De Gea was the previous two seasons before that as well). With more game-time there's no reason to think Henderson wouldn't have improved further.Oh god, are people still going on about fecking Dean Henderson
He was poor when he played, lost his place, but apparantly he's the glue that holds everything together
Chances are that he wouldn't have been the long-term answer, but once he recovered from Covid he should have been given the chance to show whether the team as a whole would have been better with him in goal rather than De Gea (as it definitely was last season).
Overall solid is basically the exact opposite of how I would describe De Gea. He is world class at one thing (in fact he was one of the best of all time at his peak), but otherwise he is one of the worst in the league in almost every other important aspect of being a goalkeeper. That's not blowing his limitations out of proportion, it's something that is very obvious to see both with our eyes and in the stats.
Myths about Henderson are something else.
He is also (like DDG) more or less stuck on goal line on crosses. I don't know how thing that he is vocal even started. He is average in ball distribution (better than Dave though).
Now other part of medal; his positioning is abysmal. And his shot stopping is average at best.
Wan Bissaka is world class at one thing aswell.
The difference between the support of De Gea and Wan Bissaka is stunning.
Wan Bissaka's slide tackle is the same as De Gea's reactive reflex saves.
I love how a player stuck on bench is somehow the answer to all problems. Same was with VdB.
I can slightly understand the need (although not a pressing one) to replace De Gea. But Henderson is not the answer.
I can slightly understand the need (although not a pressing one) to replace De Gea. But Henderson is not the answer.
Yes, he was very poor.
Which is a shame considering the hopes we all had of Henderson being a success at United, would’ve been mint on pretty much every level there is.
And no, he wasn’t overall better. He was a disaster on corners, he insisted on coming a meter off his line and then backtracking afterwards. This notion that he’s supposedly so much better than De Gea at every other aspect than reflex saves is absurd on every level. His positioning was dodgy as feck.
Sadly, a part of the problem here is that people are stupid. They learn about statistics, but they fail to understand the concept behind it, which is why stats in general should be locked behind iq test
Fact is that Henderson didn’t look ready, in any way, which was my concern when he insisted on fighting for the number one spot rather than taking another season out on loan, it was too much of a gamble when there wasn’t any need for it.
It’s a bit like considering if you should take up a loan to redo your kitchen because you fancy a bit of an upgrade, a kitchen island and a fancy stove, when the roof of your house is leaking, none of the toilets are working and you can’t plug in your iphone while you’re watching tv because it’ll overload the fuse.
Henderson isn't great at dominating his box and ball distribution, but he's still better than DDG. For instance, DDG caught 3% of the crosses into his box this season and 4.6% last season in the league (which is right down the very bottom of the rankings). Henderson caught 8.6% during his run last season which is slightly above average. In terms of coming out of their box to deal with something, DDG has done it 0.35 and 0.2 times per game over the last two seasons. Henderson was at 1.12. The communication thing is fairly obvious with De Gea being one of the quietest keepers around while Henderson was at least trying to control his defence. There's literally no way for anybody who isn't in the team or training ground to know whether he's actually good at it or is talking a load of shit, but he's certainly trying to do it more. The fact him being in the team coincided directly with our defence looking the most organised it has done in the last couple of seasons seems to indicate that it was an improvement at least.
As for Henderson's positioning and shot-stopping, he certainly did have a couple of moments where both badly let him down. However it's not like it was happening constantly. There were other times that he was quite good at both. Once he gets a true starting spot to settle into he very well might reduce those mistakes. Or he may not. It's impossible to tell until it happens.
If you don't think Henderson was better than De Gea was the last three seasons, there's no point even debating with you. This season sure there's reason to debate, but De Gea was an absolute disaster the previous three. Single-handedly cost us a top four spot in 18/19, at fault in numerous of the semi's that we lost, knocked us out of the CL last season when he chickened out of a challenge that he was the favourite to win. And just in general being absolutely terrible. Henderson certainly wasn't great in his run, but he was comfortably better that that.
No, he didn’t single-handedly cost us the top four spot in 18/19. He was in great form until he completely collapsed towards the end, shit happens, top 4 was always a stretch that season considering how we performed towards christmas. Plenty of players had a horrible end to the season, not just him. Nor did he get us knocked out of the champions league either
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