Day 14: Netherlands vs USA | Argentina vs Australia (Last 16 1&2)

Zen said:
He's not worked as hard as he did in this game in years.... and it looked at the full time whistle. He was fecked. Fair fecks to him. Massive panic after the Aussie goal and he didn't shy away from fighting to keep them going up top, which is one of the prime arguments against him.

One of the best games I think I've watched from him in years in a complete sense.
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That's the in game management and intelligence all top players have and its only until your body doesn't allow you to do it are you totally finished.

Messi moves so well around the pitch and positons himself extremely well, but his teammates know where he is too.

Closing down and chasing for a few seconds then rest/walk but still knowing where to be and where to go is simple, but hard to effectively repeat.
 
Oly Francis said:
We're getting to the point when games become more and more irrationnal though, analysis doesn't really matter when you reach the final stage. It's often about one bad mistake or one player having the night of his life. It's obviously not 50/50 at each game but the margins are getting far, far narrower because of the immense pressure.
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That’s not true. Big teams win it at the end. If what you are saying was true, we will see much more often an outsider in finals and semis. But that never happen in finals.
And don’t use Croatia as an exemple please, they had a hell of a team 4 years ago.
 
Rordrigo de Paul finally had a good game. He will be a nightmare For that Dutch midfield to play against.
 
Deserved by Argentina.

To those who are saying they're not playing good, who exactly is?

I expect them to beat the Dutch too.
 
IFC 1905 said:
this team beat Brazil in a final last year. I will always have hope in them.
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Hardly in a World Cup mate. Brazil are very solid. I can’t see this team beat them.
That’s just my humble opinion.

Anyway, I think that anyone from the other side of the table are favorites. France. But if England beat them, I can see them go all the way. The other side is much stronger to me. But I won’t write off Brazil.
 
Redfrog said:
That’s not true. Big teams win it at the end. If what you are saying was true, we will see much more often an outsider in finals and semis. But that never happen in finals.
And don’t use Croatia as an exemple please, they had a hell of a team 4 years ago.
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Please try to explain to me how France won the last world cup based on an analysis of what they displayed in the group stage. I'll be waiting (good luck).
 
That was a weird game. Argentina deserve to go through but failed to impress -- they should have scored a few more from all the clear-cut chances they created all game, however. Australia, on the other hand, were invisible throughout and got lucky with their goal, but are now kicking themselves for not converting those two chances in their final push.

One thing I know for certain on Argentina's end is that they're going to need a lot more than Messi and inshallah against Holland. And Lisandro HAS to start.
 
Redfrog said:
Well, Argentina is not favorite against Netherlands. They are in for a reality check.
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If any bookie in the world have The Netherlands as a favorite I would be stunned. Argentina has lost one of their 40 last games and in that game they had 15-3 in goal attempts and 70-30 in possession. And they don't play shit teams regularly in the WC-qualification like in Europe.
Argentina had total control of the game today also until Australia scored with that deflected shot. In fact the chance Martinez saved in the last minute was Australias first shot at goal.

Brazils style of play is more likeable but Argentinas is as effective. They didn't have any better team in 2018 when they went out against WC-winners France 3-4 after having 60-40 in possession, more goal attempts, and after a match with a dreadful goalkeeping performance from Armani.

Alvarez > Pavon
Romero>Rojo
Acuna>Tagliafico
Martinez>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Armani

Messi is surely not the same player as in 2018 but he has performed as well here as in Russia. But overall the team is better now.

Any team can beat anyone in a single game. We have seen that in this tournament. But Argentina will be very very clear favorites going into this game.
 
Commentary was odd. It's was as if Argentina were the lovable, plucky underdogs
 
Redfrog said:
France is. Don’t count Tunisia please, it wasn’t the same team.
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France is and that's about it. There's no team for which you can say they had a blast up until now. Also its strange people are considering Netherlands as favorites. They've been average.
 
This is a good Argentinian team, not sure what everyone is talking about. Practically 3rd elimination game in the row that they are playing with by far the biggest pressure of any national team on their sholders (always the case with Argentina). Enzo Fernandez and Julian Alvarez added much needed quality to their first 11 and they also have an excellent keeper.

They can beat anyone.
 
stw2022 said:
Commentary was odd. It's was as if Argentina were the lovable, plucky underdogs
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I was almost close to rooting for them then they started to play act and roll around like they do. The Messi 'punch' one was particularly annoying.
 
Ockham said:
If any bookie in the world have The Netherlands as a favorite I would be stunned. Argentina has lost one of their 40 last games and in that game they had 15-3 in goal attempts and 70-30 in possession. And they don't play shit teams regularly in the WC-qualification like in Europe.
Argentina had total control of the game today also until Australia scored with that deflected shot. In fact the chance Martinez saved in the last minute was Australias first shot at goal.

Brazils style of play is more likeable but Argentinas is as effective. They didn't have any better team in 2018 when they went out against WC-winners France 3-4 after having 60-40 in possession, more goal attempts, and after a match with a dreadful goalkeeping performance from Armani.

Alvarez > Pavon
Romero>Rojo
Acuna>Tagliafico
Martinez>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Armani

Messi is surely not the same player as in 2018 but he has performed as well here as in Russia. But overall the team is better now.

Any team can beat anyone in a single game. We have seen that in this tournament. But Argentina will be very very clear favorites going into this game.
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France deserved their victory that night. No possession stats won’t say otherwise, I watched the game and France don’t rely on possession anyway.

Argentina just don’t look a well oiled machine. Netherlands are not brillant but they look more like a team to me.
 
Acuna and Laukaku is so bad, and the defenders were not sharp with their passing until Licha was subbed in. They have to improve defensively, hope for messi to continue clutching and Alvarez to stay injury free because Laukaku is an even worse version of Higuain
 
Jim Beam said:
This is a good Argentinian team, not sure what everyone is talking about. Practically 3rd elimination game in the row that they are playing with by far the biggest pressure of any national team on their sholders (always the case with Argentina). Enzo Fernandez and Julian Alvarez added much needed quality to their first 11 and they also have an excellent keeper.

They can beat anyone.
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Unfortunately we'll have to beat them in the semis. :(
 
Redfrog said:
Hardly in a World Cup mate. Brazil are very solid. I can’t see this team beat them.
That’s just my humble opinion.

Anyway, I think that anyone from the other side of the table are favorites. France. But if England beat them, I can see them go all the way. The other side is much stronger to me. But I won’t write off Brazil.
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This is a WC mate, watch Argentina vs Brazil in 1990. Or watch Argentina vs France in 2018 where he had a far more horrible team and we still lost 4-3 and almost tied it in the last play.
The Netherlands will respect Argentina, it will be a close game for sure.
 
Wait, are people not seeing that this “unimpressive” style of play is a deliberate style of play? They play a very risk-free, possession based pragmatic game - that defense is solid and they can handle some pressure. They played against park the bus tactics this WC and when games open up, like these last 30 min, lots of spaces will appear for Messi and Di Maria and you know how that will end. If those 3 clear cut chances created by Messi get top binned we would have a very different discussion. No way Brazil, Holland or France is going to park the bus. They will challenge Argentina and space will appear. This team is going far into the tournament!
 
Oly Francis said:
Please try to explain to me how France won the last world cup based on an analysis of what they displayed in the group stage. I'll be waiting (good luck).
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So France are not a big team to you ? They don’t have some of the best players in the world ?

You said that in knockouts anything can happen. I said that I don’t believe it because smaller football nations have very little chance to win the World Cup.

Can you read what I said before please ?

I didn’t say that knockouts are the reflect of group stage. It’s like another competition. But a big team will win it at the end.
 
IFC 1905 said:
This is a WC mate, watch Argentina vs Brazil in 1990. Or watch Argentina vs France in 2018 where he had a far more horrible team and we still lost 4-3 and almost tied it in the last play.
The Netherlands will respect Argentina, it will be a close game for sure.
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I am French mate and I don’t have the same memory of that 4-3.

Never said it won’t be close, I just said I believe Netherlands are better to me. And I am not saying much, because Netherlands are unimpressive as well.

I just watched the Argentinians players after the final whistle, and they were so relieved. It was fecking Australia…

You can go all the way for sure, but I won’t bet on it. They are much better teams left.
 
This is definitely the booze talking, but I don't see how Argentina will beat us. We defend too well for them to create anything and they looked suspect on the break against Australia and even KSA.
 
Real Name said:
France is and that's about it. There's no team for which you can say they had a blast up until now. Also its strange people are considering Netherlands as favorites. They've been average.
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The goals they scored today were much better then anything Argentina produced. It was team goals from a solid unit, not impressive but solid. And I also think that USA are a better team then Aussies.

Argentina were better then Aussies, well, that’s not hard but they needed a gift from the goalie and made it nervous at the end.

I really don’t know why people are so offended when we doubt of the quality of that team.
 
KirkDuyt said:
This is definitely the booze talking, but I don't see how Argentina will beat us. We defend too well for them to create anything and they looked suspect on the break against Australia and even KSA.
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Netherlands are a dark horse in the tournament that could go far
 
Redfrog said:
So France are not a big team to you ? They don’t have some of the best players in the world ?

You said that in knockouts anything can happen. I said that I don’t believe it because smaller football nations have very little chance to win the World Cup.

Can you read what I said before please ?

I didn’t say that knockouts are the reflect of group stage. It’s like another competition. But a big team will win it at the end.
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You interfered in a conversion when the OP was talking about the group stage. And yes, the margins ARE getting smaller, you see surprising results at every WC. But there's still margins so yeah, after 4 KO games you're obviously more likely to have big teams.

And France was a pretty average big name in 2018. Deschamps invented the team and the gameplan in the middle of the competition with Pavard, Hernandez as a left back and Matuidi as a left winger. Most people didn't even know who Mbappé was.
 
Argentina are this tournament’s Real Madrid. They live in the chaos, they look like they’ll perform in the moments. Doesn’t matter if they’re shite for 30 minutes. You have to watch out for a team like that as much as a well coached and structured team that falls apart at adversity (could see this being Spain).
 
Oly Francis said:
. Most people didn't even know who Mbappé was.
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That's not true, he had already won the league with Monaco and had good seasons in the CL, one of the most sought after young players, everyone knew of him.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
To be honest, I find "games" played a misleading statistic that can either flatter or downplay someone's achievements. Any sort of minutes in a game can count as a "game", and so, it makes it problematic comparing that way. The only good way it can be done is through minutes played:

Minutes played
Messi - 81,995 minutes played with 789 goals
Ronaldo - 92,796 minutes played with 819 goals

So, Ronaldo has played rougly the equivalent of 120 more full 90 minute games and only 30 more goals to show for it.

The goals per minute ratio puts Messi at 104 mins per goal and 72 mins per goal contribution.
The goals per minute ration puts Ronaldo at 113 mins per goal and 88 mins per goal contribution.

It's an open/shut case, tbh.
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As well as where one lined up in positions. SAF and CQ changed tactics in 2006-07 which is when Ronaldo took off in scoring and play-making by moving closer to goal and given more free reign in attack, more 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 wide forward. Those career numbers are skewed through his first three years at United.

Ronaldo played as a traditional 4-4-2 winger his first three seasons with United. He was a pacy, hug the line, go around/past the opposition, and dribble into the box or cross/pass into the box winger in those tactics. That's 137 appearances with 27 goals over 9484 minutes, about 105 matches over full 90. His goal return was every 351 minutes these years. He certainly was not clinical in these early years, and frustrated fans with his moon shots, whereas Messi always was the more clinical finisher from the get. Though Ronaldo could beat the defender or keeper with either foot.

Minus these United winger stats he's on 83312 minutes with 792 goals, a goal every 105 minutes in roughly 15 more averaged full 90 games. Who knows how his numbers might have looked if United were playing a more advanced system and closer to goal when he first arrived; he'd certainly have scored more but probably not massively. I don't know how he was positioned for Portugal and Sporting in these years.

Not saying it makes him the better player - he's not - but Ronaldo's tactical positioning made a huge mark in his early statistics. For United, the goals mostly went through the two forwards (Rooney and van Nistelrooy) with the mids and wingers chipping in a handful each per season.

As far as I know, Messi has always played closer to goal his entire first team career and never as a traditional 4-4-2 winger.
 
Massive Spanner said:
What? That’s nonsense.
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That was obviously an exageration. What I meant is that he went from "a great talent" to "the superstar that destroyed Argentina and scored in the final", and all that happened in during these KO games. Before the WC, people still had debates like "is Mbappé better than Asensio, Rashford or whoever". He exploded at that time.
 
whar a performance by the australia. Were talking about a team whos best players are on the bench for celtic, In the championship, or playing Bundesliga 2 and in the aleague. this is the equivalent of Barcelona vs Blackpool kinda stuff.
Huge to not only hang in there but still oush Argentina till the dying seconds.
 
DeeDee7 said:
whar a performance by the australia. Were talking about a team whos best players are on the bench for celtic, In the championship, or playing Bundesliga 2 and in the aleague. this is the equivalent of Barcelona vs Blackpool kinda stuff.
Huge to not only hang in there but still oush Argentina till the dying seconds.
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Yeah they tried their best with the limited talent they had, fair play to them. That's why it ws infuriating watching Poland who had a much better set of players play like complete cowards.
 
Redfrog said:
So France are not a big team to you ? They don’t have some of the best players in the world ?

You said that in knockouts anything can happen. I said that I don’t believe it because smaller football nations have very little chance to win the World Cup.

Can you read what I said before please ?

I didn’t say that knockouts are the reflect of group stage. It’s like another competition. But a big team will win it at the end.
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Redfrog said:
I am French mate and I don’t have the same memory of that 4-3.

Never said it won’t be close, I just said I believe Netherlands are better to me. And I am not saying much, because Netherlands are unimpressive as well.

I just watched the Argentinians players after the final whistle, and they were so relieved. It was fecking Australia…

You can go all the way for sure, but I won’t bet on it. They are much better teams left.
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France and Brazil have by far the most depth in their squads and together with Spain the best individual starting eleven. I would still say Argentina is as good of a team as them. Argentina are a much tougher and physical team, havs a bigger winning mentality and a cynical approach which counterfeits the other teams slightly higher skill level. And let's not forget that they have won 2 and drawn 1 the three last games against Brazil who is clear favorite to a WC-win with the bookies.

About the 2018 4-3 game Argentina had more possesion and goal attempts so I have no clue why you think France was the better team. I think it was a very tight game that could have gone either way and that Argentina side was worse on paper than this side. And with it being an even match overall, MBappé made all the difference so you could say that France without Mbappé had been the inferior team. I suspect that Mbappé could be the difference again. Messi nowadays can't take on a whole defence by himself and that could be the crucial advantage for France.
 
Oly Francis said:
That was obviously an exageration. What I meant is that he went from "a great talent" to "the superstar that destroyed Argentina and scored in the final", and all that happened in during these KO games. Before the WC, people still had debates like "is Mbappé better than Asensio, Rashford or whoever". He exploded at that time.
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Asensio... what happened to that guy? I thought he was gonna be a superstar after his early performances.
 
Oly Francis said:
You interfered in a conversion when the OP was talking about the group stage. And yes, the margins ARE getting smaller, you see surprising results at every WC. But there's still margins so yeah, after 4 KO games you're obviously more likely to have big teams.

And France was a pretty average big name in 2018. Deschamps invented the team and the gameplan in the middle of the competition with Pavard, Hernandez as a left back and Matuidi as a left winger. Most people didn't even know who Mbappé was.
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I checked an Espn preview from 2018 and there’s some truth to that as they predicted semi finals. But the preview said that France had one of the best squads in the tournament and that Mbappé was one of their top 3 players along with Pogba and Griezmann.
 
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