Day 14: Netherlands vs USA | Argentina vs Australia (Last 16 1&2)

Redfrog said:
I am French mate and I don’t have the same memory of that 4-3.

Never said it won’t be close, I just said I believe Netherlands are better to me. And I am not saying much, because Netherlands are unimpressive as well.

I just watched the Argentinians players after the final whistle, and they were so relieved. It was fecking Australia…

You can go all the way for sure, but I won’t bet on it. They are much better teams left.
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I don't think any team proved to be really "better" than anyone so far. And well you can watch the game again vs your country, we were leading 2-1 until Pavard scored a beauty. In fact, Rojo made the most stupid penalty ever to Mbappe for the lead. That defense was 10 levels below the one we have now. And at the very final game we had a clear chance to tie. Don't say France isn't a great team or anything, we were horrible, but even so we were dangerous. So imagine nowadays. All of the teams parked the bus against us so far, it won't be the same against the Netherlands, I want to see what happens then.

I'm not saying we are the champions or anything, but I have faith in this team and they have room for improvement. I think they can beat anyone and won't lose easily.
 
IFC 1905 said:
I don't think any team proved to be really "better" than anyone so far. And well you can watch the game again vs your country, we were leading 2-1 until Pavard scored a beauty. In fact, Rojo made the most stupid penalty ever to Mbappe for the lead. That defense was 10 levels below the one we have now. And at the very final game we had a clear chance to tie. Don't say France isn't a great team or anything, we were horrible, but even so we were dangerous. So imagine nowadays. All of the teams parked the bus against us so far, it won't be the same against the Netherlands, I want to see what happens then.

I'm not saying we are the champions or anything, but I have faith in this team and they have room for improvement. I think they can beat anyone and won't lose easily.
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In all fairness, it'll all rest on Messi and potentially Di Maria. Both of them can either have a great night and cause a lot of trouble to any team, or be far more discrete and Argentina won't be able to do much. If Messi is able to navigate between the lines and get rid of the player(s) marking him, he'll drive the Oranje team nuts. It all depends on how much gas he has left in the tank after a pretty exhausting game tonight. You could have really used Lo Celso.
 
Oly Francis said:
In all fairness, it'll all rest on Messi and potentially Di Maria. Both of them can either have a great night and cause a lot of trouble to any team, or be far more discrete and Argentina won't be able to do much. If Messi is able to navigate between the lines and get rid of the player(s) marking him, he'll drive the Oranje team nuts. It all depends on how much gas he has left in the tank after a pretty exhausting game tonight.
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They have 6 days to rest, that's pretty important. But people here are underestimating players like Lautaro, he can create goals out of nowhere. He's currently cursed when it comes to finishing but if you watch his game closely he made good plays today to mantain posession. Julian Alvarez is also someone capable of doing great things. In fact, this team didn't depend that much on Messi prior to this WC, Messi was like an addition to this team. I don't know what happened, if it's the nerves or what it is, but once we get to play like they did before, things could be very different. And who knows if it's next game for us to wake up..

I wish we could play Paredes and set Enzo to a more attacking role.
 
MrMarcello said:
As well as where one lined up in positions. SAF and CQ changed tactics in 2006-07 which is when Ronaldo took off in scoring and play-making by moving closer to goal and given more free reign in attack, more 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 wide forward. Those career numbers are skewed through his first three years at United.

Ronaldo played as a traditional 4-4-2 winger his first three seasons with United. He was a pacy, hug the line, go around/past the opposition, and dribble into the box or cross/pass into the box winger in those tactics. That's 137 appearances with 27 goals over 9484 minutes, about 105 matches over full 90. His goal return was every 351 minutes these years. He certainly was not clinical in these early years, and frustrated fans with his moon shots, whereas Messi always was the more clinical finisher from the get. Though Ronaldo could beat the defender or keeper with either foot.

Minus these United winger stats he's on 83312 minutes with 792 goals, a goal every 105 minutes in roughly 15 more averaged full 90 games. Who knows how his numbers might have looked if United were playing a more advanced system and closer to goal when he first arrived; he'd certainly have scored more but probably not massively. I don't know how he was positioned for Portugal and Sporting in these years.

Not saying it makes him the better player - he's not - but Ronaldo's tactical positioning made a huge mark in his early statistics. For United, the goals mostly went through the two forwards (Rooney and van Nistelrooy) with the mids and wingers chipping in a handful each per season.

As far as I know, Messi has always played closer to goal his entire first team career and never as a traditional 4-4-2 winger.
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Yeah! This is a fair statement. Counting goal/ratio from Ronaldos early years is not fair to Ronaldo. Goalwise I think you almost can say that they are equals which is still an amazing achievement by Messi considering the advantage Ronaldo has in the air. But what separates them in the GOAT debate is Messis playmaking abilities.
Messi made 303 assists for Barcelona in 778 games. To put a perspective on that it is just 20 assists less than Iniesta/Xavi had combined while playing 663 games more than Messi.
 
Ockham said:
Yeah! This is a fair statement. Counting goal/ratio from Ronaldos early years is not fair to Ronaldo. Goalwise I think you almost can say that they are equals which is still an amazing achievement by Messi considering the advantage Ronaldo has in the air. But what separates them in the GOAT debate is Messis playmaking abilities.
Messi made 303 assists for Barcelona in 778 games. To put a perspective on that it is just 20 assists less than Iniesta/Xavi had combined while playing 663 games more than Messi.
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A lot of that is probably Messi receiving the pass from those two and then making the final pass that led to the goal. Be curious how many "secondary" assists Iniesta and Xavi accrued if there is such a stat tracked. I know the MLS tracks it, it's a US thing that carried to the MLS from the NHL. NBA tracks it now but unsure if it's considered official.
 
IFC 1905 said:
this team beat Brazil in a final last year. I will always have hope in them.
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You'll be fine. People don't seem to adjust for it being an international tournament. They expect CL late stage performances for some bizarre reason.
 
MrMarcello said:
A lot of that is probably Messi receiving the pass from those two and then making the final pass that led to the goal. Be curious how many "secondary" assists Iniesta and Xavi accrued if there is such a stat tracked. I know the MLS tracks it, it's a US thing that carried to the MLS from the NHL. NBA tracks it now but unsure if it's considered official.
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Not that many probably since Messi had as high assistratio after Xavi and Iniesta left with his record year for assists being 2019/20 (22 assists). Furthermore Messi is by far the player that has scored most goals unassisted so it is fair to assume that he is also the player that has assisted most assists without having received a "meaningful" secondary assist.

There are an in-depth analysis from 2014 that is absolutely stunning and I'm sure most stats has been app. the same (or slightly below) since 2014.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/



"By now I’ve studied nearly every aspect of Messi’s game, down to a touch-by-touch level: his shooting and scoring production; where he shoots from; how often he sets up his own shots; what kind of kicks he uses to make those shots; his ability to take on defenders; how accurate his passes are; the kind of passes he makes; how often he creates scoring chances; how often those chances lead to goals; even how his defensive playmaking compares to other high-volume shooters.

And that’s just the stuff that made it into this article. I arrived at a conclusion that I wasn’t really expecting or prepared for: Lionel Messi is impossible.

It’s not possible to shoot more efficiently from outside the penalty area than many players shoot inside it. It’s not possible to lead the world in weak-kick goals and long-range goals. It’s not possible to score on unassisted plays as well as the best players in the world score on assisted ones. It’s not possible to lead the world’s forwards both in taking on defenders and in dishing the ball to others. And it’s certainly not possible to do most of these things by insanely wide margins."
 
Redfrog said:
The goals they scored today were much better then anything Argentina produced. It was team goals from a solid unit, not impressive but solid. And I also think that USA are a better team then Aussies.

Argentina were better then Aussies, well, that’s not hard but they needed a gift from the goalie and made it nervous at the end.

I really don’t know why people are so offended when we doubt of the quality of that team.
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I'm not offended if that's what you mean. It's just they certainly not as bad as portrayed by some here.
 
Oly Francis said:
In all fairness, it'll all rest on Messi and potentially Di Maria. Both of them can either have a great night and cause a lot of trouble to any team, or be far more discrete and Argentina won't be able to do much. If Messi is able to navigate between the lines and get rid of the player(s) marking him, he'll drive the Oranje team nuts. It all depends on how much gas he has left in the tank after a pretty exhausting game tonight. You could have really used Lo Celso.
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Thought Holland would beat USA comfortably and my prediction is Argentina breeze past Holland. I just dont see Holland causing Argentina any problems at the back, Argentina control the game and though they dotn score many, they control the game regardless of which Messi/DiMaria show up.

Thinnk they have had a relatively easy ride to the semis and may really grow into the tournament. For me Holland have some good but over rated players and a couple of really good plaeyrs not in the best of form, actually think Dumfries offers the biggest threat against Argentina
 
jesperjaap said:
Thought Holland would beat USA comfortably and my prediction is Argentina breeze past Holland. I just dont see Holland causing Argentina any problems at the back, Argentina control the game and though they dotn score many, they control the game regardless of which Messi/DiMaria show up.

Thinnk they have had a relatively easy ride to the semis and may really grow into the tournament. For me Holland have some good but over rated players and a couple of really good plaeyrs not in the best of form, actually think Dumfries offers the biggest threat against Argentina
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Depends on the state of their midfield to be honest. If De Paul shows up as he did in the group stage for exemple, they'll control nothing.
 
Oly Francis said:
In all fairness, it'll all rest on Messi and potentially Di Maria. Both of them can either have a great night and cause a lot of trouble to any team, or be far more discrete and Argentina won't be able to do much. If Messi is able to navigate between the lines and get rid of the player(s) marking him, he'll drive the Oranje team nuts. It all depends on how much gas he has left in the tank after a pretty exhausting game tonight. You could have really used Lo Celso.
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I don’t see this from Di Maria, don’t think he’s a miss. Looks well past his best and one-paced. Messi is far better with runners around him.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
I don’t see this from Di Maria, don’t think he’s a miss. Looks well past his best and one-paced. Messi is far better with runners around him.
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If he's fit, I higly doubt Di Maria wil be on the bench, Scaloni had him in the starting XI at almost every game.
 
The boys fought hard and played well but Argentina were better in the end.

But has been Australia's best world cup performance, no golden generation, hard has hell qualifying, managed to win 2 games and gave their all. I am proud of the team.
 
IFC 1905 said:
They have 6 days to rest, that's pretty important. But people here are underestimating players like Lautaro, he can create goals out of nowhere. He's currently cursed when it comes to finishing but if you watch his game closely he made good plays today to mantain posession. Julian Alvarez is also someone capable of doing great things. In fact, this team didn't depend that much on Messi prior to this WC, Messi was like an addition to this team. I don't know what happened, if it's the nerves or what it is, but once we get to play like they did before, things could be very different. And who knows if it's next game for us to wake up..

I wish we could play Paredes and set Enzo to a more attacking role.
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I think Licha's coming in next game and Scaloni will try to use 3 at the back. I feel like the team is much more confident with that game style, Molina and Acuña are higher in the pitch and that also allows De Paul to be an attacking midfielder, he had a great second half today. Best moments of the team came with that formation.

People are not considering that Argentina played four games in eleven days, all with the starters. Also nobody mentions that until Australia's first goal today, which was pure bad luck, this team was rock solid at the back, in fact Dibu's save is his first since the free kick he saved against Mexico.


I don't think the image was so bad, especially considering the accumulated fatigue, but the quarterfinals will give us a good idea of how we are.
 
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Jim Beam said:
This is a good Argentinian team, not sure what everyone is talking about. Practically 3rd elimination game in the row that they are playing with by far the biggest pressure of any national team on their sholders (always the case with Argentina). Enzo Fernandez and Julian Alvarez added much needed quality to their first 11 and they also have an excellent keeper.

They can beat anyone.
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I jusr don't see it. There's a complete lack of quality in that team which is why spend out of the game showcasing their mastery over back passes. All they did until Messi's goal and that's a good 35 minutes, was around Australia recycling it over the same space again and again. It's easy for opponents to crowd the middle as there aren't enough players who can open things up in that area and more importantly they're comfortable to leave the fullbacks in space as they're the most basic fullbacks you'll see with no threat or athleticism. Nearly the entire team is a group of one paced CMs really.

And even against Australia they nearly conceded two and I fancy Otamendi to get found out either in the next round or the semis like he did before Martinez saved them last night.

Overall this is a team that's doing just about enough and for me it's only a matter of time before they get found out. They have no athleticism nor the technical quality to make up for it so I can't see how they are contenders. Nl should fancy their chances.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
To be honest, I find "games" played a misleading statistic that can either flatter or downplay someone's achievements. Any sort of minutes in a game can count as a "game", and so, it makes it problematic comparing that way. The only good way it can be done is through minutes played:

Minutes played
Messi - 81,995 minutes played with 789 goals
Ronaldo - 92,796 minutes played with 819 goals

So, Ronaldo has played rougly the equivalent of 120 more full 90 minute games and only 30 more goals to show for it.

The goals per minute ratio puts Messi at 104 mins per goal and 72 mins per goal contribution.
The goals per minute ration puts Ronaldo at 113 mins per goal and 88 mins per goal contribution.

It's an open/shut case, tbh.
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It doesn't change anything in this case. Either Ronaldo has 30 more goals in 145 more games or 30 goals in 120 full 90's. Both show the same point.
 
Jim Beam said:
This is a good Argentinian team, not sure what everyone is talking about. Practically 3rd elimination game in the row that they are playing with by far the biggest pressure of any national team on their sholders (always the case with Argentina). Enzo Fernandez and Julian Alvarez added much needed quality to their first 11 and they also have an excellent keeper.

They can beat anyone.
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A team that looks like they're playing with that much pressure, against Saudi, mexico, Poland and Australia is the sign of a not very good team. They should be confident and comfortable. They are panicking against very bad sides.
 
bosnian_red said:
A team that looks like they're playing with that much pressure, against Saudi, mexico, Poland and Australia is the sign of a not very good team. They should be confident and comfortable. They are panicking against very bad sides.
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Certainly, Argentina is not the best side as they struggle a lot.

But if even the reserves team of Brazil, France and Portugal are losing, it means that the competition is very close and that any team must fight till the end.
 
WhoAreYou? said:
Wait, are people not seeing that this “unimpressive” style of play is a deliberate style of play? They play a very risk-free, possession based pragmatic game - that defense is solid and they can handle some pressure. They played against park the bus tactics this WC and when games open up, like these last 30 min, lots of spaces will appear for Messi and Di Maria and you know how that will end. If those 3 clear cut chances created by Messi get top binned we would have a very different discussion. No way Brazil, Holland or France is going to park the bus. They will challenge Argentina and space will appear. This team is going far into the tournament!
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I am a little surprised how others haven’t really shared this POV. Look at who they have played so far, and you clearly see Argentina would do and look much better against the “fancied” sides. I understand how people might be slightly underwhelmed with what they have seen so far, but there is some serious under-rating happening. Lautaro probably has been the worst attacker in the WC, and you could add 4 goals easily to their overall tally. The last 2 games could easily have been 4-0 and 4-1. Other than France, which other team has looked all conquering? These are not club football matches.

I have seen quite a few mention in each match day thread how Argentina have got no chance and Poland/Mexico/Australia would show them the door. The list keeps growing and people keep waiting. I wonder how many of them watched the last Copa campaign.

Anyway, I feel the QF would be close either way with Arg coming out on top.
 
Ockham said:
Yeah! This is a fair statement. Counting goal/ratio from Ronaldos early years is not fair to Ronaldo. Goalwise I think you almost can say that they are equals which is still an amazing achievement by Messi considering the advantage Ronaldo has in the air. But what separates them in the GOAT debate is Messis playmaking abilities.
Messi made 303 assists for Barcelona in 778 games. To put a perspective on that it is just 20 assists less than Iniesta/Xavi had combined while playing 663 games more than Messi.
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For me, while messi is an elite tier playmaker (near GOAT level) and a GOAT level goal scorer, his number 1 attribute has always been his dribbling (also GOAT level).
In his earliest years and during his prime, its his dribbling which created so much chaos in the opponents’ defence which led to assists and goals. Because of his dribbling, minimally that led to teams either having to put a marker or 2 on him, or draw several players to his proximity leaving his teammates open to create dangerous attacks. And that is minimally. More generally he shredded the defences into ribbons with his dribbling
 
Oly Francis said:
Depends on the state of their midfield to be honest. If De Paul shows up as he did in the group stage for exemple, they'll control nothing.
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True but I think they look a lot more balanced and DePaul has looked better in midfield too now Enzo Fernandez is playing
 
Swoobs said:
For me, while messi is an elite tier playmaker (near GOAT level) and a GOAT level goal scorer, his number 1 attribute has always been his dribbling (also GOAT level).
In his earliest years and during his prime, its his dribbling which created so much chaos in the opponents’ defence which led to assists and goals. Because of his dribbling, minimally that led to teams either having to put a marker or 2 on him, or draw several players to his proximity leaving his teammates open to create dangerous attacks. And that is minimally. More generally he shredded the defences into ribbons with his dribbling
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I think its both but the play making didnt stand out as much as the quality of players around him in the Barcelona squad, he didnt really have to use them as much as for Argentina, it was his dribbling utilised more by Barcelona.

What puts both in contention for the best ever I think though mainly is the number of years they have consistently done it, that is really amazing and stands out over other players.....as abilty and performance level, Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona for me anyway are without a doubt ahead of them both
 
The Australian kid who missed the chance at the end has only had about 16 senior games. Must be a talent if he’s already in the national squad. Joining Newcastle in January too.
 
Argentina vs Netherlands should be interesting one. Could go all the way to the penalties like in 2014.
 
BorisManUtd said:
:lol: I don't even remember the game, just penalties and Argentina going through. But won't be surprised if it's another tight game with few chances in it.
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The entire game had 1 chance I think and Mascherano tore his arse (literally) to deny Robben's shot.
 
Nothing against Australia, but why have domestic broadcasters in the UK treated them like they're 'our' team?
I get why they're partial in commentating on UK nations (and understand how annoying this must be for non-fans of those countries after sitting through the Wales montages on the BBC) but it was weird to see commentators acting like this with Australia (it went beyond the normal admiration for an underdog).
There's plenty of Australians in the UK of course, but the same applies to Poland or Ghana. It'd be weird if it's an Anglo thing, but if it is that then why didn't they treat Canada similarly, particularly given their English coach?
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I jusr don't see it. There's a complete lack of quality in that team which is why spend out of the game showcasing their mastery over back passes. All they did until Messi's goal and that's a good 35 minutes, was around Australia recycling it over the same space again and again. It's easy for opponents to crowd the middle as there aren't enough players who can open things up in that area and more importantly they're comfortable to leave the fullbacks in space as they're the most basic fullbacks you'll see with no threat or athleticism. Nearly the entire team is a group of one paced CMs really.

And even against Australia they nearly conceded two and I fancy Otamendi to get found out either in the next round or the semis like he did before Martinez saved them last night.

Overall this is a team that's doing just about enough and for me it's only a matter of time before they get found out. They have no athleticism nor the technical quality to make up for it so I can't see how they are contenders. Nl should fancy their chances.
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bosnian_red said:
A team that looks like they're playing with that much pressure, against Saudi, mexico, Poland and Australia is the sign of a not very good team. They should be confident and comfortable. They are panicking against very bad sides.
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Can't say I disagree with both of you, but it is the case of different perspective. Once they lost to SA I fully expected for them to fall apart and I didn't even think that they are one of the favorites before the start. The reasons for that are mostly what you say above. Not being fully convinced with their playing style (first 11 quality) which combined with immense pressure under which some players crumble leads to massive underperforming.

However, the big things in tournaments like this are also: defensive solidity, goalkeeping performance, unexpected individual performances from bench players, team spirit, mentality and momentum.. They managed to turn these last 3 things around after the 1st game. Now, am not saying they are favorites atm and would still give advantage to France and Brazil against them while games against Netherlands (or England for example) are/would be 50/50 to me. However, they have quality and they are starting to have marks of a team that can go deep in the tournament like this. They also definitely can beat anyone in a one-off.
 
RopersReturn said:
Nothing against Australia, but why have domestic broadcasters in the UK treated them like they're 'our' team?
I get why they're partial in commentating on UK nations (and understand how annoying this must be for non-fans of those countries after sitting through the Wales montages on the BBC) but it was weird to see commentators acting like this with Australia (it went beyond the normal admiration for an underdog).
There's plenty of Australians in the UK of course, but the same applies to Poland or Ghana. It'd be weird if it's an Anglo thing, but if it is that then why didn't they treat Canada similarly, particularly given their English coach?
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Canada got lots of love. It’s just getting behind the underdog
 
jesperjaap said:
I think its both but the play making didnt stand out as much as the quality of players around him in the Barcelona squad, he didnt really have to use them as much as for Argentina, it was his dribbling utilised more by Barcelona.

What puts both in contention for the best ever I think though mainly is the number of years they have consistently done it, that is really amazing and stands out over other players.....as abilty and performance level, Brazilian Ronaldo and Maradona for me anyway are without a doubt ahead of them both
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While I'm a huge fan of both the Real Ronaldo and Maradona it is just baffling that anyone puts them ahead of Messi if we are talking about a defined absolute level of performance/skills. Messi is/was a better goalscorer, a better assistprovider, a better through ball provider, and a better dribbler than Ronaldo and Maradona was and he was it in an environment that is far more competitive.

One can argue that Ronaldo was plagued with injuries and could have been as good or better goalscorer than Messi and one can argue that Maradona during his best years was more superior relative to his peers in the eighties than Messi was in the 2010's. On the other hand Maradona at his peak would have struggled to take a place in the starting eleven in most 2022 top european teams which also is the reason for why it is almost impossible to compare players from different eras. Who knows what Maradona could have accomplished in todays football with todays proffessional training methods? But you just have to take one look at Youtube to see the difference in skill level /tempo between Messi and Maradona and I absolutely adore/adored Maradona.

CR7 is nowhere near Messi in any other department than goalscoring.
 
2mufc0 said:
We haven't really seen a team go at them, well Saudi Arabia tried and did some damage.

There's definetly some mistakes in that Romero-Otamendi partnership.

It's clear Lisandro should be playing but it's also clear the manager won't pick him and Argentina will find out the hard way.
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a team going at them would be great For Argentina. They’ve been going up against parked buses Virtually every match.

If Argentina can get some space I think they can do a lot of damage. Don’t fancy them to win it all but still feel they are a bit underrated.
 
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