Day 10 | Scotland v Hungary | Switzerland v Germany

[hasanejaz88]

Regardless of the late goal, the Swiss exposed the issue in the German team when playing Musiala, Wirtz and Gundogan. The play is just too central with the only width being provided by the wing backs. The Swiss were pretty comfortable the whole game I felt and Germany didn't create many clear cut chances from open play.

With that formation, the simple way to defend is just clog the center with a 5-3-2 with only the full backs needed to mark the German wing backs, play zonal in the center to not get pulled away by the movement of German attackers.

Would really prefer for us to play Sane or Fuhrich instead of Wirtz or Gundogan and move Musiala to LW.

 

[Utd heap]

Absolute stonewall penalty. Scandalous decision.

And this bollocks that "Armstrong initiated contact". Forwards are told to get their bodies between the ball and the defender. If the defender is too clumsy to avoid clattering into the forward, he deserves to be penalised. Everyone knows this.

I'd be fuming if it was my side and it wasn't given - but I don't mind VAR not getting involved. Harsh, not a howler.

 

[miked99]

Did Scotland really beat Spain 2-0 only a few months ago? Feels like I had some sort of weird fever dream

 

[TheGodsInRed]

Nah. If England win their group they wouldn't have played Germany since Italy would have kicked them out in R16. Now if England fail to win the group they might have to beat Germany eventually

If England can't be Slovenia they are dead anyway. England have to win the group to get the easier side of the draw.

 

[utdalltheway]

Not a penalty on Armstrong. He moves toward the defender and it looks unnatural, like he's trying to initiate or force contact.

Scotland had an opportunity to progress, and are better than what they have shown; but even though one or two things have not gone their way, they have not been good enough performance-wise.

Against Switzerland they gifted the opposition a goal having opened the scoring. Even though the Swiss were wasteful and the better side, Scotland could have won that game 2-0 with the rub of the green (they had an effort that came off the post).

The opening game against Germany and how deflating that was probably had a sizeable knock-on effect.

What minute of the game was the incident? I was watching the Swiss/german game so now want to go the recording of the sco/hun game.

 

[utdalltheway]

On the German game; watching naglesmann persist with havertz was frustrating. Fullkrug had to come on late to show him how to head a ball on goal.

 

[Rex Banner]

I think it's a penalty. Armstrong is well within his rights to put himself between the ball and the opposition player. Its good play. Clear penalty.

 

[Kirk lazarus]

I don't know what the stats are for penalties , I know that United had around 5 or 6 over 38 games . I think there has been around 26 games so far. How many pens have been awarded ? It seems like there's hardly been any .

 

[croadyman]

If England can't be Slovenia they are dead anyway. England have to win the group to get the easier side of the draw.

Will never talk about an easier side of the draw after what happened in 2016, how do we know who the winner of our group faces as it says 3rd place in Group D/E/F if all progress through

 

[MrWilliams]

Fullkrug has 13 goals in 19 games for Germany but Nagelsmann insists on starting Don Kai..

 

[MrWilliams]

Should be a 16 team tournament

While I think 24 is far too many, there is more quality football around Europe that you could probably have a 20 team tournament with no passenger nations.

Obviously 20 teams makes organizing the group wonky

 

[ManUtd1999]

While I think 24 is far too many, there is more quality football around Europe that you could probably have a 20 team tournament with no passenger nations.

Obviously 20 teams makes organizing the group wonky

20 teams with 16 going to the KOs? I’m not sure about that, and how to organize the groups.

16 is too few, 32 is too many. 24 is a good compromise. Let’s keep it that way.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Hungary vs Scotland was a really weird game from Hungary tactically speaking. A must win game, yet they played like they were already qualified and everyone was conserving energy; they've been disappointing in general for a team that has been tough to beat and played some solid football in recent years. After the bad injury at Leipzig and the one earlier this season Szslowboszlai already looks like he's in his early 30s physically and has lost a few seconds of acceleration. Could just be fatigue making things look worse, but I suspect he won't make it at Liverpool unless they can find a way to play him as more of a 10, or at least with less defensive/box to box responsibilities.

Scotland seemed like they didn't know what to do with having to make the play, had set up to be cautious/counter attack, and now didn't really have the quality to adapt quickly under pressure of having to win. Or maybe the manager just didn't have the nerve or faith in his players to risk an aggressive game earlier, especially after they got lucky twice with marginal offside decisions playing a more open style against Switzerland. Whatever, they left it far too late. After the potentially morale crushing disaster in the opening game I thought they did well to recover against a solid Swiss team, but neither the players or manager looked like they believed they could push on from that here.

On the penalty, I think with the contact being so heavy and from behind you have give it, but i do think the Scottish player was very clumsy himself with his footwork and attempt at shielding the ball, possibly trying to draw the foul instead of doing his best to stay on his feet and shoot. There's no need for that sideways both feet well off the ground move when he was already the slightly better positioned of the two.

 

[didz]

I don't know what the stats are for penalties , I know that United had around 5 or 6 over 38 games . I think there has been around 26 games so far. How many pens have been awarded ? It seems like there's hardly been any .

There have been two I think. Meanwhile there have been six own goals already - almost 10% of the total goal share.

There have been a lot of long range strikes too, with 15 goals from outside the box - just under a quarter of the goal share. Those three stats could all be linked in some way.

 

[TheGame]

 

[utdalltheway]

I finally saw that non penalty where Armstrong went down in the box; weird that VAR didn’t look at it. Hard to say for me if it was a peno or not but worth a 2nd look for sure.

 

[Real Name]

If teams are going through with 2 points then you know it’s a broken format.

Euro with 16 teams was the perfect Euro.

 

[Real Name]

Tbh it was a penalty.

 

[stefan92]

Fullkrug has 13 goals in 19 games for Germany but Nagelsmann insists on starting Don Kai..

He often doesn't start, so it's a goal every 58 minutes he played. That's absolutely world class territory

 

[do.ob]

He often doesn't start, so it's a goal every 58 minutes he played. That's absolutely world class territory

Positively generational.

 

[SATA]

Whatever happened to Scotland losing all three games? I recalled they had a pretty impressive qualifying campaign and thought they would actually get far here in the euros

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Whatever happened to Scotland losing all three games? I recalled they had a pretty impressive qualifying campaign and thought they would actually get far here in the euros

I think they started the qualification strongly but that was a while ago. Since September last year, the only team they've beaten is Gibraltar.

 

[Dan_F]

Should be a 16 team tournament

Which 8 teams would you want to lose? The teams sitting on one or two points have been competitive and have generally been one goal away from qualifying for the next round in games. It’s exactly what you’d want from the group stages.

 

[stefan92]

Which 8 teams would you want to lose? The teams sitting on one or two points have been competitive and have generally been one goal away from qualifying for the next round in games. It’s exactly what you’d want from the group stages.

Scotland. Really just Scotland.

 

[Dan_F]

Scotland. Really just Scotland.

Again, they should have had a pen with a few minutes left and gone through. Tight games show it’s the right number of teams.

 

[Siorac]

Hungary vs Scotland was a really weird game from Hungary tactically speaking. A must win game, yet they played like they were already qualified and everyone was conserving energy; they've been disappointing in general for a team that has been tough to beat and played some solid football in recent years. After the bad injury at Leipzig and the one earlier this season Szslowboszlai already looks like he's in his early 30s physically and has lost a few seconds of acceleration. Could just be fatigue making things look worse, but I suspect he won't make it at Liverpool unless they can find a way to play him as more of a 10, or at least with less defensive/box to box responsibilities.

Szoboszlai aside - he's clearly not at his best, I agree -, it's really weird to read opinions like this. We had 14 shots compared to Scotland's 4 (5 vs 0 on target), we had an xG of 1.57 compared to Scotland's 0.22, we hit the post/bar twice... this Hungary team is never going to play glamorous, exciting, front foot football because the players are far too limited for that but there's no question which team created more and did more for the win last night.

 

[LA BOMBA]

It makes no sense why they don't just expand the Euro to 32 teams and we avoid this 3rd place speculation nonsense.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Was a stonewall penalty. Robbed is the word I’d use and while Clarke probably could have worded his response better, the main story is the awful decision.

 

[Grinner]

For balance. I absolutely pissed myself when that Hungarian goal went in. Hope your flights get cancelled.

Same here....loudest cheer of the tourney from me so far.

 

[stefan92]

Again, they should have had a pen with a few minutes left and gone through. Tight games show it’s the right number of teams.

True. But the way they played is just terrible. On par with England, who are still individually better and might still be able to fix that. But while I enjoyed watching most of the underdogs play, I didn't enjoy watching Scotland. So that's not so much based on a lack of competitiveness (which they as you say don't have) but on a lack of entertainment value (which is my subjective opinion).

 

[Fortitude]

Home nations showing too much cowardice. At least when Wales go, they give everything they’ve got.

 

[Zehner]

I think Germany - Swiss was the typical game in which the underdog scored from the first chance in the game and went on to park the bus. I think the criticism now going Germany's way is a bit too much. It's always difficult when a team sits so deep and has zero motivation to risk anything. If anything can be taken from that draw, it is that we have to avoid individual mistakes like Musiala's right before the 0:1 and Schlotterbeck's before the 0:2. I still think Henrichs for Kimmich would make sense, though, since Kimmich lacks the athleticism to work a wing on his own while Musiala and Wirtz both gravitate towards the left wing. Schlotterbeck for Tah is a big drop in quality but a left footed CB on the pitch could reignite the left wing. Right now, since Kroos is so dominant in the build up and usually switches the play from left to right, the right wing is much more active, at least in my impression.

Musiala unfortunately hasn't kept up the level he displayed in the first game. Hungary was already a much more quiet game and this one was rather bad. First the mistake for Swiss' goal, then a bunch of bad decisions in key moments. Wirtz on the other side has constantly improved and IMO had his best game of the tournament yesterday, creating the best chance in the game and played that phenomenal through ball to Musiala. Still think he is a bit too shy right now and should take more risks but it was a step into the right direction and he really should have stayed on the pitch ahead of Gündogan and Musiala, IMO.

The referees were pretty bad, IMO. Not giving the potential penalties for Havertz and especially Beier is one thing but Musiala's "foul" on Aebischer was as "hard" as Schär's bodycheck against Havertz.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Euro with 16 teams was the perfect Euro.

I prefer a knockout round of 16, not jumping from the Group stage to the QF. 24 remains better.

 

[stefan92]

I think Germany - Swiss was the typical game in which the underdog scored from the first chance in the game and went on to park the bus. I think the criticism now going Germany's way is a bit too much. It's always difficult when a team sits so deep and has zero motivation to risk anything. If anything can be taken from that draw, it is that we have to avoid individual mistakes like Musiala's right before the 0:1 and Schlotterbeck's before the 0:2. I still think Henrichs for Kimmich would make sense, though, since Kimmich lacks the athleticism to work a wing on his own while Musiala and Wirtz both gravitate towards the left wing. Schlotterbeck for Tah is a big drop in quality but a left footed CB on the pitch could reignite the left wing. Right now, since Kroos is so dominant in the build up and usually switches the play from left to right, the right wing is much more active, at least in my impression.

Musiala unfortunately hasn't kept up the level he displayed in the first game. Hungary was already a much more quiet game and this one was rather bad. First the mistake for Swiss' goal, then a bunch of bad decisions in key moments. Wirtz on the other side has constantly improved and IMO had his best game of the tournament yesterday, creating the best chance in the game and played that phenomenal through ball to Musiala. Still think he is a bit too shy right now and should take more risks but it was a step into the right direction and he really should have stayed on the pitch ahead of Gündogan and Musiala, IMO.

The referees were pretty bad, IMO. Not giving the potential penalties for Havertz and especially Beier is one thing but Musiala's "foul" on Aebischer was as "hard" as Schär's bodycheck against Havertz.

I mostly agree with this take. Still wasn't a good game from Germany, some players just had a bad day. Even Kroos misplaced passes under no pressure. No better timing for such an off day than the final group match when you already qualified for the next stage.

But one thing has to be factored in (and in my opinion makes a huge difference compared to previous tournaments that ended badly for Germany): This team is able to change it's approach The preferred option clearly is a highly technical attacking play in narrow spaces, but opening it up and going brute force obviously works as well, with more direct players like Raum or Füllkrug. When I think back to the world cup I remember the team mostly trying the same thing all the time without varying much (and to be fair they were just bad at finishing in some games then). This time there seems to be much more willingness to tactically adapt.

Which is funny because Nagelsmann (rightfully) stated how much he dumbed down his approach to deal with the limited training time he has with the national team.

 

[FootballHQ]

It makes no sense why they don't just expand the Euro to 32 teams and we avoid this 3rd place speculation nonsense.

I think that makes sense. However that won't happen as qualification would then have to be ditched. There's no point playing the same format (and the Nations league) just to see 20 teams drop out. Given half of them are San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Faeroes, Liechtenstein it would just be playing games for the sake of it e.g. 5 team group and top 3 go through automatic with 4th getting a play off.

 

[Alex99]

I think that makes sense. However that won't happen as qualification would then have to be ditched. There's no point playing the same format (and the Nations league) just to see 20 teams drop out. Given half of them are San Marino, Andorra, Malta, Faeroes, Liechtenstein it would just be playing games for the sake of it e.g. 5 team group and top 3 go through automatic with 4th getting a play off.

Short of going back to the 16 team format, I'd rather they just reduced the knockout stages. Make it so the first knockout round is the quarter final (as it was in the 16 team format), and have it so only the group winners and the two best runners up get through. Makes it so 16 of 24 drop out of the group stages, and should actually encourage teams to go for the win as you'll no longer be able to progress without winning a game (as Portugal did in 2016).

In the last Euros, that would have meant the first knockout round was between Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, England, Sweden, Spain and France. In Euro 2016 it would have been between France, Wales, Germany, Poland, Croatia, Spain, Italy and Hungary.

 

[Real Name]

Scotland needs ome kind of revolution in youth sections all across their football system. Not many quality players are produced and even those who are decent are techically limited.

 

[djembatheking]

Can`t see what all the fuss is about the penalty, Scotland would have missed even if it was given.

 

[FootballHQ]

Short of going back to the 16 team format, I'd rather they just reduced the knockout stages. Make it so the first knockout round is the quarter final (as it was in the 16 team format), and have it so only the group winners and the two best runners up get through. Makes it so 16 of 24 drop out of the group stages, and should actually encourage teams to go for the win as you'll no longer be able to progress without winning a game (as Portugal did in 2016).

In the last Euros, that would have meant the first knockout round was between Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, England, Sweden, Spain and France. In Euro 2016 it would have been between France, Wales, Germany, Poland, Croatia, Spain, Italy and Hungary.

Nice in theory but too much money in the broadcasting rights for that to ever happen as half of the most marketable teams would just then go out in the group stages.

 

[Alex99]

Nice in theory but too much money in the broadcasting rights for that to ever happen as half of the most marketable teams would just then go out in the group stages.

Oh yeah, it'll never happen because there's no money in it.

We're far more likely to see them further expand it to 32 teams, with the qualifiers being an almost pointless procession for most teams.

Based on how they currently sort the play off slots using the Nations League, you'd have looking at them scrapping the semi-final thing and then seeing something like:

Poland vs Estonia
Wales vs Sweden
Israel vs Montenegro
Bosnia and Herzegovina vs Republic of Ireland
Finland vs Norway
Ukraine vs Iceland
Georgia vs Luxembourg
Greece vs Kazakhstan