David Moyes Unemployed | European Champion

[FrankDrebin]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

 

[stevoc]

And they were unlucky against us as well. Man City could have even been a draw had they got the rub of the green.

Us?

 

[stevoc]

Ah if I could be petty enough to find all who ridiculed me for defending moyes.

This manager got 7 months when Ole got 3 years. Football I tell ya.

Was he appointed on the 22nd of September?

 

[Barthez]

I’ld actually take him back and give him another crack at it if it came to it

 

[R'hllor]

So much trolling going around.

 

[el3mel]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

Moyes is an experienced PL manager, he managed Everton for 11 years. Ole's experience before United was relegating Cardiff and managing at Norway.

 

[MoskvaRed]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

I don’t think many people would describe Moyes as a “nothing manager”. Not good enough for United and looked past his sell by date before his West Ham renaissance but still with a decent body of work to his credit at Preston and Everton.

Ole on the other hand….Let’s just say that I doubt Real Sociedad or an equivalent of West Ham will be on the phone. Sunderland maybe.

 

[Member 101269]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

They're both good in there way; they struggle to reach the higher levels.

 

[Moriarty]

I’ld actually take him back and give him another crack at it if it came to it

Nah. Once was enough.

 

[FahadiHossein]

I think the number 1 issue was probably Sir Alex should have told Moyes in the first place to not bring in his coaching team that quickly. The players just could not adapt to the different approach.
At both Everton and West Ham, he had one or two seasons to bring in players to suit his style and implement his style before achieving good results, but you can't do that with United. You can't afford one or two seasons of failures for success three seasons later.
I still think that he is a capable coach.

 

[AneRu]

The guy is a very good manager. He just came at United at the wrong time. The mission was impossible back then imo.

Yes, I hated him and wanted him sacked back then, but the more time passes, the more I think he didn't get half the chance and time other managers after him got. The squad he inherited were champions alright, but anyone who thinks it didn't need a lot of work for the future after SAF retired are kidding themselves, and following a legendary manager as SAF was an impossible mission.

Part of me is glad he has made a great comeback to his career and is now getting praised everywhere. He deserves it. He's a very good manager and also comes around as a decent person.

He did a lot wrong here but in hindsight, when you consider all that occurred under Woodward you start to wonder how much of it was his fault and whether we should have stuck with him then. The fatal mistake was to waste the summer of 2013 but like I said, how much of it was really his fault and what part of the blame belongs with Woodward and his d**k swinging antics?

One thing for sure, he would never have the extra step to take on Klopp and Pep over multiple seasons but for what the Glazers want he'd have been perfect because he is a very good team builder and with resources at United you will never know what he could achieve if he could get his hands on a top talent like Haaland backed up by a solid team behind him.

 

[Sylar]

Like solskjaer, if he was tasked with top 4 every year at United he'd probably do it but he wasn't capable of upping his game to be number 1.

Tbf just getting top4 in season 1 and he gets season 2
He let everton finish above us

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

A combination of Moyes simply being out of his depth, taking the job at the worst time directly succeeding SAF, and making some poor decisions, meant that it didn’t work out for him at Man Utd. I think he achieved more points per game during his final season at Everton than he did during his season at Man Utd, which was telling.

But he was clearly a very good manager as proven by his work at Preston and Everton. I did think that the game had passed him by though, so this resurgence has been a pleasant surprise, though I don’t particularly like West Ham.

 

[SER19]

Tbf just getting top4 in season 1 and he gets season 2
He let everton finish above us

My point is that he wasn't able to coach a team to win a league. Setting a team up to win a league requires far more abs a different approach than just to come top 4 and trying to do it means guys like moyes and solskjaer failed

 

[Suedesi]

In terms of tactical awareness and football knowledge, he is.

Where Moyes falls short is his celebrity status and coolness factor. He can't convince a dressing room full of massive egos and prima donnas who used to be the most popular kids in school that he's the main man they should be looking up to.

Football management isn't like in the video games. It's not simply about having the right brain. It's mostly about projecting the right image. The rest comes down to competent spending and clever coaching - though the big names aren't exactly unique in having that. But even those same big names fail eventually when their squads get tired of old coaching methods and the original charm of the manager's charisma fades (which is exactly what happened to Klopp and Tuchel at Dortmund, Pochettino at Spurs and Mourinho everywhere).

Moyes can go toe to toe with any of them on purely football terms. It's his lack of a 'baller' reputation that precedes him. That's why it's so difficult for a managers to make make it in England unless they've previously made it in another country. It's too competitive in the PL for anybody to build a reputation at the top... without already proving themselves at the top. They're stuck in a catch 22.

If Moyes had done his current job with a German, Dutch, French or Italian team, he would have probably won a few cups or maybe even leagues there. And then if he'd moved to United afterwards, he'd have been much more accepted by the players and fans. Kind of like what happening right now with Ralf Ragnick.

I disagree - Moyes is a decent coach for smaller teams. His first concern is to nullify the opponents' weapons, "place a player where the opponent star player tends to pick up the ball", "organize the team on corners", "make it difficult for them" if you will. All sensible stuff for a team like West Ham or Everton, but never enough for a club like United where he's expected to play an expansive football, take-it-to-the-opponent approach and outplay the opposition 95% of the time. Also, his approach while being sensible (and nothing wrong with that) is hardly earth shattering or innovative to inspire United, Milan, PSG, Bayern etc to take a chance on him, there's a dime a dozen coaches like him on the continent at the moment.

 

[izec]

I disagree - Moyes is a decent coach for smaller teams. His first concern is to nullify the opponents' weapons, "place a player where the opponent star player tends to pick up the ball", "organize the team on corners", "make it difficult for them" if you will. All sensible stuff for a team like West Ham or Everton, but never enough for a club like United where he's expected to play an expansive football, take-it-to-the-opponent approach and outplay the opposition 95% of the time. Also, his approach while being sensible (and nothing wrong with that) is hardly earth shattering or innovative to inspire United, Milan, PSG, Bayern etc to take a chance on him, there's a dime a dozen coaches like him on the continent at the moment.

Pretty much. Moyes is just not good enough to consistently challenge for the title at any club or league. He takes over a midtable club with potential and mixes around European places. You described perfectly the way he achieves it, which is not good enough for top clubs and doesnt work. It is an Underdog tactic and solidifes the clubs, even overachieves, but he cant kick on. He is also simply not a winner and doesnt behave like it.

 

[LochGormanAbú]

I wonder if a bigger club will ever take a ping on him again

Probably not but he’s done a fantastic job at west ham

Celtic, nailed on some day

 

[roonster09]

The job he has done at West Ham is fantastic, they play some good football too. Glad he is back after few very poor years, he has created one more team that has potential to challenge for CL places, taking the club from midtable or even lower.

 

[tentan]

Great win today. Hope they keep it up.

 

[Tap]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

Moyes has proven that he can do well with mid table clubs. Solskjaer has not proven anything yet

 

[shamans]

Was he appointed on the 22nd of September?

Aren't you the person who said he achieved nothing with Everton

 

[shamans]

People who claim Moyes is a nothing manager are the same who think Ole's a nothing manager.

Both good manager to varying degree's who've found out that United's ambitions are just too big for them.

What a ridiculous statement.

In the grand scheme of things, even with his man united failure Moyes is one of the very few elite managers in the world.

Heck Steve Bruce, Tony Pulis, mark Hughes and Sam Allardyce are few elite managers who have had long successful stints at premier league clubs.

Ole Gunnar sokjaer is probably never gonna get a premier league job again. He'd be lucky to stay in a championship role

 

[nuanced]

The guy is a very good manager. He just came at United at the wrong time. The mission was impossible back then imo.

Yes, I hated him and wanted him sacked back then, but the more time passes, the more I think he didn't get half the chance and time other managers after him got. The squad he inherited were champions alright, but anyone who thinks it didn't need a lot of work for the future after SAF retired are kidding themselves, and following a legendary manager as SAF was an impossible mission.

Part of me is glad he has made a great comeback to his career and is now getting praised everywhere. He deserves it. He's a very good manager and also comes around as a decent person.

I remember you being a big supporter of JoMo at the start of his tenure. A lot of people put down Moyes to big up Mou's work. Kudos to you for changing your opinion since then. Lot's of folks here flake out when their opinions turn out to be wrong in the long run.

The post Gill administration has been learning through trial and error with each manager. Mou had more resources than LVG and LVG had it better than Moyes. They let him down the most in the transfer market. SAF was working his magic on a squad with a poor midfield, and held together by the ageing legs of RVP and Ferdinand. The management was wrongly confident that them not bowing to the manager's transfer demands, like they did previously with SAF, would just force the manager to get the best out of players like Cleverly.

Buying Fellaini for more than his release clause is prime Woody incompetence. Every person on the Caf knew about the urgent need for midfield signings that summer, and the best Woody could get was 1 midfielder on the last day of the window. I don't buy that Moyes stopped the Thiago transfer. Thiago was moving out of his boyhood club and he would always feel more secure about his future working under a Barsa legend like Pep (who always gave him his debut), over any other manager.

Coming after SAF was always going to be a challenge for any manager. It was just doubly hard for Moyes coming from Everton.

 

[Jackal981]

What a ridiculous statement.

In the grand scheme of things, even with his man united failure Moyes is one of the very few elite managers in the world.

Heck Steve Bruce, Tony Pulis, mark Hughes and Sam Allardyce are few elite managers who have had long successful stints at premier league clubs.

Ole Gunnar sokjaer is probably never gonna get a premier league job again. He'd be lucky to stay in a championship role

Based on their managerial skill Ole does not fit to lace Moyes's shoes. Thats' how big the gap of their skill. It's like comparing Declan Rice to a random championship midfielder.

 

[roonster09]

I don't know why people want to rewrite history and his time with ManUtd. He was shit for us and got sacked, which he deserved. He is very good manager for Everton and West Ham. Maybe that's what he is comfortable with, clubs at that level. That doesn't mean he was good for us or will be good for us.

 

[TheArse]

He's got them playing some really good football. Will be interesting to see how West Ham cope with rotation with EL but what an effort to the season so far. Some huge results this season already and if he can galvanise them through the Chrissy period they might actually be hard to exclude from the top 4.

The Man United job was too big for him as most will agree I'm assuming. But what a turn-a-round for his career and I couldn't be happier for him. Like any shift in job/company in life it can take time to find the right fit for yourself. He may have just found his new calling at West ham. His run with the punches and has kept going. Massive credit there.

The season is long though, so I'll reserve judgement till the end. We've all seen teams get off to a flyer and then capitulate. But for now he's doing an incredible job there and I wish him the best.

 

[shamans]

I don't know why people want to rewrite history and his time with ManUtd. He was shit for us and got sacked, which he deserved. He is very good manager for Everton and West Ham. Maybe that's what he is comfortable with, clubs at that level. That doesn't mean he was good for us or will be good for us.

I think problem for some like myself is he was considered a complete joke of a manager. What you said is correct that he failed at Man United.

I think conclusions such as he may not be a big team manager are arguable though I don't believe them. Just wish fans didn't gave him the amount of shit they did and accepted it's not working out..

 

[stevoc]

Aren't you the person who said he achieved nothing with Everton

Is that a question? If so not that I can remember no but I suppose it depends on context, he never won anything there if that's what you mean by not achieving anything.

Just checked United hired Moyes on the 9th of May 2013 and sacked him on the 22nd of April 2014. So almost a year.

 

[stevoc]

I remember you being a big supporter of JoMo at the start of his tenure. A lot of people put down Moyes to big up Mou's work. Kudos to you for changing your opinion since then. Lot's of folks here flake out when their opinions turn out to be wrong in the long run.

The post Gill administration has been learning through trial and error with each manager. Mou had more resources than LVG and LVG had it better than Moyes. They let him down the most in the transfer market. SAF was working his magic on a squad with a poor midfield, and held together by the ageing legs of RVP and Ferdinand. The management was wrongly confident that them not bowing to the manager's transfer demands, like they did previously with SAF, would just force the manager to get the best out of players like Cleverly.

Buying Fellaini for more than his release clause is prime Woody incompetence. Every person on the Caf knew about the urgent need for midfield signings that summer, and the best Woody could get was 1 midfielder on the last day of the window. I don't buy that Moyes stopped the Thiago transfer. Thiago was moving out of his boyhood club and he would always feel more secure about his future working under a Barsa legend like Pep (who always gave him his debut), over any other manager.

Coming after SAF was always going to be a challenge for any manager. It was just doubly hard for Moyes coming from Everton.

That one was apparently down to Moyes not wanting Fellaini to be his first signing because he thought it would put too much pressure on him, which he was probably right about.

 

[nuanced]

That one was apparently down to Moyes not wanting Fellaini to be his first signing because he thought it would put too much pressure on him, which he was probably right about.

That's fair, but it seems like he was forced to go for Fellaini in the end, because Woodward failed getting the other midfield targets like Strootman.

 

[UncleBob]

That's fair, but it seems like he was forced to go for Fellaini in the end, because Woodward failed getting the other midfield targets like Strootman.

Forced

 

[nuanced]

Forced

Are you implying that Fellaini was Moyes' top target, and Moyes found the last day of the transfer window the most opportune time to sign Fellaini, a few months after his release clause expired?

 

[UncleBob]

Are you implying that Fellaini was Moyes' top target, and Moyes found the last day of the transfer window the most opportune time to sign Fellaini, a few months after his release clause expired?

I'm saying that you seemingly have a big need to re-write history.

 

[nuanced]

I'm saying that you seemingly have a big need to re-write history.

My point is that a lot of things were/are broken at United, to simplify Moyes' failure here as him being just not good enough. Managers with better pedigree than him have failed since, spending significantly more. I'm of the opinion that Moyes might've had a different impact if he came in 2018, and got to spend 450 million pounds on top of the squad which Mou left. Let's agree to disagree if you think that is re-writing the history.

 

[UncleBob]

My point is that a lot of things were/are broken at United, to simplify Moyes' failure here as him being just not good enough. Managers with better pedigree than him have failed since, spending significantly more. I'm of the opinion that Moyes might've had a different impact if he came in 2018, and got to spend 450 million pounds on top of the squad which Mou left. Let's agree to disagree if you think that is re-writing the history.

You can't even get the basics right

 

[UncleBob]

I still have no idea how/why people convince themselves that Moyes was let down by the club, and that money wasn’t available for him to sign players.

In terms of Thiago, Fergie wanted him badly and we tried, but failed, to snatch him up before he signed his first contract with Barcelona. There’s nothing to suggest the reports aren’t true and that Moyes didn’t give the go ahead to sign him.

The well known summer of “urgent transfer business” is to a large extent down to Moyes.
He’s quoted, several times, about how he didn’t want Fellaini to be his first big signing at United because he felt it would send the wrong signals. He was the manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world and that was his concern, bizarre. He‘s also quoted, again and again, on the Importance of signing quality players, why it was right to continue to push for Fabregas. What was Woodward supposed to do? Force Moyes to abandon the idea of signing Fabregas, when Moyes insisted on the importance of doing everything to sign him? The hindsight here is amazing, because it sure as shit wouldn’t have been taken lightly if that had been leaked. We signed Fellaini, last minute, because that was the only player Moyes wanted that was actually available. The price was no concern, and could have easily been spent any time during the transfer window if only Moyes had given his approval. If Moyes came up with names of players that were actually interested in leaving their current club, odds are we would’ve signed them.

Moyes never should have accepted the job. He came in after his holidays, never really seemed to grasp the size of the job and club. He didn’t have a clear plan for anything, which resulted in essentially trying everything to see if something would work. Our 81 crosses against Fulham is still one of the worst things I’ve ever seen. One day he’s going for as many crosses as possible, the next day he’s trying possession football, then off to something else again.

 

[stevoc]

That's fair, but it seems like he was forced to go for Fellaini in the end, because Woodward failed getting the other midfield targets like Strootman.

I mean forced is a strange phrase, he definitely wanted Fellaini from the get go so he wasn't forced into signing him. He had the club putting in bids for Fellaini and Baines so they were both in his plans.

He just wanted to sign Ronaldo/Bale and/or Fabregas etc. first.

 

[nuanced]

The well known summer of “urgent transfer business” is to a large extent down to Moyes.
He’s quoted, several times, about how he didn’t want Fellaini to be his first big signing at United because he felt it would send the wrong signals. He was the manager of one of the biggest clubs in the world and that was his concern, bizarre. He‘s also quoted, again and again, on the Importance of signing quality players, why it was right to continue to push for Fabregas. What was Woodward supposed to do? Force Moyes to abandon the idea of signing Fabregas, when Moyes insisted on the importance of doing everything to sign him? The hindsight here is amazing, because it sure as shit wouldn’t have been taken lightly if that had been leaked. We signed Fellaini, last minute, because that was the only player Moyes wanted that was actually available. The price was no concern, and could have easily been spent any time during the transfer window if only Moyes had given his approval. If Moyes came up with names of players that were actually interested in leaving their current club, odds are we would’ve signed them.

Hard disagree. United management was accustomed to being successful while under-investing in the squad under SAF. Any summer with big incoming transfers was always to be offset by outgoings to balance the books. This continued to be a case until LVG's last season. You can look at the net spend from 2004-2015 and compare it with the title rivals like Chelsea or City. LVG has spoken about struggling to sign his top target and having to settle with third/fourth choices. It wasn't until Mou, that United 'started doing things other clubs can only dream about'.

Moyes never should have accepted the job. He came in after his holidays, never really seemed to grasp the size of the job and club. He didn’t have a clear plan for anything, which resulted in essentially trying everything to see if something would work. Our 81 crosses against Fulham is still one of the worst things I’ve ever seen. One day he’s going for as many crosses as possible, the next day he’s trying possession football, then off to something else again.

Not sure about the specifics, but can't argue that Moyes contributed to his failures as well. IMO the big failure for Moyes was him coming from Everton and not having the winning pedigree which the United squad had. The players were always going to compare him to Fergie. With his background, him coming in and introducing wholesale changes moving away from Fergie's setup just made matters worse for him.

 

[UncleBob]

Hard disagree. United management was accustomed to being successful while under-investing in the squad under SAF. Any summer with big incoming transfers was always to be offset by outgoings to balance the books. This continued to be a case until LVG's last season. You can look at the net spend from 2004-2015 and compare it with the title rivals like Chelsea or City. LVG has spoken about struggling to sign his top target and having to settle with third/fourth choices. It wasn't until Mou, that United 'started doing things other clubs can only dream about'.

You can do a hard disagree as much as you want, doesn't really change the reality here. Fact is we spent the entire summer chasing after players Moyes wanted, problem was that they weren't interested but Moyes still wanted us to push for them.

“I wanted Gareth Bale to be my first signing at Manchester United. But it was already down the road a bit with Real Madrid. I tried to hijack it. I tried to get him. Manchester United offered more money than Real Madrid. They offered more money to the player. “We did everything we could to try and get the player. We even had a helicopter at the training ground to take him and bring him back. We thought we had a chance. But he chose real Madrid and he made a brilliant decision because he went on to win four Champions Leagues. He’s had a brilliant career.”

He also insisted on waiting as long as possible with Fabregas, as he might decide to join us.

"The other one was Cesc Fabregas, who we thought we would get right up until the last minute," Moyes said.

So we were trying to sign Baines, Fellaini, Fabregas and Bale, offering significant fees for the last two, we signed Fellaini and then Mata for a record fee. The following summer under LVG we spent the odd £180mill, but apparantly you reckon we couldn't have forked out the fee for Fellaini at any time during that summer That's some hard fecking fantastic imagination that.

Continuing to be the case during Van Gaals time, christ. We spent fecking £320mill over two seasons bringing in the players that Van Gaal wanted. His imaginary list of players he wanted is a fantastic hindsight list, but if you spend 5 minutes looking at the players he mentions and what their situation was at the time, it's fairly easy to see he's full of shit. People just tend to gobble it up, like you do.

Not sure about the specifics, but can't argue that Moyes contributed to his failures as well. IMO the big failure for Moyes was him coming from Everton and not having the winning pedigree which the United squad had. The players were always going to compare him to Fergie. With his background, him coming in and introducing wholesale changes moving away from Fergie's setup just made matters worse for him.

The big failure was that he he didn't have a fecking clue. It has nothing to do with winning pedigree. Moyes didn't know what to do with the squad, how we should play, and as soon we started struggling he became desperate and pretty much tried every change he could make in order to improve the situation, no confidence whatsoever. He lost the dressing room because it became obvious to the players that Moyes was way out of his depth.

 

[nuanced]

You can do a hard disagree as much as you want, doesn't really change the reality here. Fact is we spent the entire summer chasing after players Moyes wanted, problem was that they weren't interested but Moyes still wanted us to push for them.

“I wanted Gareth Bale to be my first signing at Manchester United. But it was already down the road a bit with Real Madrid. I tried to hijack it. I tried to get him. Manchester United offered more money than Real Madrid. They offered more money to the player. “We did everything we could to try and get the player. We even had a helicopter at the training ground to take him and bring him back. We thought we had a chance. But he chose real Madrid and he made a brilliant decision because he went on to win four Champions Leagues. He’s had a brilliant career.”

He also insisted on waiting as long as possible with Fabregas, as he might decide to join us.

"The other one was Cesc Fabregas, who we thought we would get right up until the last minute," Moyes said.

So we were trying to sign Baines, Fellaini, Fabregas and Bale, offering significant fees for the last two, we signed Fellaini and then Mata for a record fee. The following summer under LVG we spent the odd £180mill, but apparantly you reckon we couldn't have forked out the fee for Fellaini at any time during that summer That's some hard fecking fantastic imagination that.

Never said there wasn't enough money to buy Fellaini - United did buy him eventually, didn't they. Chasing Bale and Cesc is fine, but I doubt Moyes didn't have any backup targets. Splurging on Fellaini on the last day suggests to me they were trying to sign some other midfielder throughout the summer.

I wouldn't focus too much on the big names being bandied about, if the management isn't willing to pay the market rate for the players. The summers prior to that United were interested in signing players like Hazard and Silva. It was Fergie chasing them, so there isn't the excuse of players not wanting to play for the manager. The reason why the midfield was in such a poor shape, despite the need for proper midfield signings for multiple summers prior to that was due to the sustained under-investment.

Continuing to be the case during Van Gaals time, christ. We spent fecking £320mill over two seasons bringing in the players that Van Gaal wanted.

Yeah, let's not ignore the 132mil pounds of outgoings: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

His imaginary list of players he wanted is a fantastic hindsight list, but if you spend 5 minutes looking at the players he mentions and what their situation was at the time, it's fairly easy to see he's full of shit. People just tend to gobble it up, like you do.

I'd expect the world's biggest club™ being able to attract top talent like Ramos, and Muller. But signing players of this ilk from other top clubs is never easy, so I'd agree that they were mostly pipe-dreams.

I see no reason why LVG wanting to sign players like Lewa (while at Dortmund), Hummels, Mane, Kante should be *imaginary*. I unfortunately don't happen to work in the United transfer department like you, so I just have to gobble up whatever explanations managers give for their failures, and connect the dots based on the way the management has conducted itself over the years.