The players had no respect for him from day 1, so he was never going to make it here.Like I said I am not defending his role here, we were totally justified sacking him but it's just a feeling I had over the years. That doesn't mean I think could have won trophies here but that we would have had a more directed rebuild and probably got more value.
He did a lot of stupid things here but I don't think that fifth would have remained his ceiling here, given the license that LVG had. The players themselves had lots to answer for, be it attitude or natural decline amongst a host of factors. It wasn't completely his fault but as the leader the buck stops with him.
Bit of a ridiculous comment. He turned Everton from team which battled relegation into a team regularly competing in the top 6 and on the cusp of CL football. He's invested smartly at West Ham and got them being consistent. You can have all the wages in the world but it's not a case that it's reflected back on the field without effective management. Whilst CL football may be a step too far, they have been playing really well this season. 1,000 games as a manager under his belt.
Whilst it didn't go well for him at United in the first season I admit, he's bounced back well and not led it define him.
He turned Everton from team which battled relegation into a team regularly competing in the top 6 and on the cusp of CL football
Evra said the other week when he first came in he said to the players you lot win everything so you need to teach me. You can't take someone seriously after that.The players had no respect for him from day 1, so he was never going to make it here.
Ridiculous how?
Everton consistently had the 6th-8th highest wage bill in the league during his time there and that's round about where he always finished. It's been well established for many years that a team's wage bill and their league finish are intrinsically linked.
Yeah they had a few bad years before he took over and he did a great job in establishing them as a solid mid-table outfit. But let's not pretend he turned a small club into into a big one. Everton are and were one one of the biggest clubs in England.
It's been well established for many years that a team's wage bill and their league finish are intrinsically linked.
They may well have been a big club in name, some big clubs in name are languishing in lower leagues but he turned them round and made them solid and playing up to their name. That is a great achievement in itself. The club could therefore invest as they became successful. You still have to manage the players to get the best out of them.
If it was that simple, we should have won at least 5 titles in the last decade...
It is though and there's been a lot of research done that backs it up. Most teams, most years consistently finish in or around where their wage bill lies in terms of size.
E.g. if you have the 4th biggest wage bill in the league then 9 times out of 10 you'll most likely finish a few places above or below that.
Off course there's a correlation, but there's many more factors at play. You're really arguing in favour of Moyes>Ole here by the way.
United have had the highest wage bill for 5 years in a row, yet in that time, they've finished 6th on two occasions and have never really come close to a title.
Pretty sure you are incorrect on that one mate. Uniteds wage bill has decreased over the last 3-4 years.
Also don't remember even mentioning Solskjaer so not sure why you are.
Wages PL
No, but you were downplaying Moyes' achievements. He clearly overachieved last season, by all metrics, including your own. That was all I was pointing out, really.
No, but you were downplaying Moyes' achievements.
I’d argue that despite an FA cup win, Lvg set us back further.Moyes is great as an underdog, getting a team to punch above their weight but no pressure if they drop off and revert to type.
The idiotic things he did at United still irk me, because he set the club back years. However, it's a nice football story for the guy who was a down and out loser to make a comeback and enjoy some relative success.
Said it all along that he's a good manager. He made way too many mistakes at united in a short period of general turmoil. In hindsight if he had just been a little more patient in stuff like getting his own staff in it might have turned out different
Ridiculous how?
Everton consistently had the 6th-8th highest wage bill in the league during his time there and that's round about where he always finished. It's been well established for many years that a team's wage bill and their league finish are intrinsically linked.
That's not true mate, I remember compiling this ages ago as I too am aware of the clubs performing around their wage bill thing and I like to use it gauge manager performance:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dav...-gone-pedantic-sod-sarni.433696/post-21704487
He punched above his weight there and they only just scraped a top 8 wage bill once.
Edit: If using this guy's set of figures they had the 8th highest twice:
Unfortunately he too uses the same Telegraph link I did for a lot of it, which is now behind a paywall. Either way "consistently 6th-8th highest wage bill in the league" isn't right.
So was it 8th highest once or twice?
Did they have the 6th highest at some points like I've read in the past? Who knows.
Is United's wage bill almost twice City's or is it 3rd-4th behind City and Liverpool? Again who knows.
All these articles are most likely guesses or complete bullshit. So fair enough if they might not have had the 6th highest wage bill mate, my point was they had a mid table wage bill and finished mid table. He wasn't performing miracles.
I believe they had the 8th highest once. The 9 seasons of data that we both used from The Telegraph were sourced by that publication from the Deloitte Money League, which is something of an industry leader when it comes to reporting on football finances.
For some reason despite the 09/10 season featuring on that infographic the reddit poster has chosen to go with a list from Talksport instead where they had Everton in joint 8th alongside Sunderland and West Ham on £54m. Deloite had them 10th that season.We both used the same Guardian sources for the final 2 season that Moyes was there who I'd have more faith in than Talksport personally speaking.
Did they have the 6th highest at some points? I strongly don't believe they did as like I said, Deloitte are reputable data collectors and their info covers 9 of the 11 seasons.
I've no idea about United's wage bill. Not sure how that's relevant seeing as I'm not even talking about that.
I know someone with a Telegraph log in, can check that last one if you want? Genuinely happy to but if you don't trust the data then I'd be wasting both of our time.
Edit: An afterthought. if these articles are likely guesses or bullshit then why did they only become guesses and bullshit when I posted something contrary to what you believed to be the case? Why weren't they bullshit when you read somewhere that they had the 6th highest wage bill and why did you say had they consistently had the 6th-8th highest wage bill when you actually think there's no way to reliably know this information?
Moyes would have been suggested for the Manchester United job if he hadn't already been here, no question about it.
Yeah - he booted Haller and Anderson out of the club due to their egos and lack of effort!Did he manage any superstar since?
Exactly. He was the one who took a massive wrecking ball to the squad, which had been left untouched by Moyes. In fact he would have followed a gradual path to improving what we had, instead of Louie's madcap full-on revolution.I’d argue that despite an FA cup win, Lvg set us back further.
This. I’m glad he’s found his groove again. He did a great job at Everton and it was a shame just how quickly those achievements were undermined and written off due to lasting bitterness at his departure. He could’ve been a success here and at the time I believed he would be, but it turned out to be a catalogue of errors largely of his own making.
Fair enough not sure what to believe personally. What I do believe though is even if they only had the 8th highest once. Their wage bill wouldn't have been that far off the other 6th-12th wage bills so I stand by my point. He did a good job but wasn't performing miracles.
Yes he was. His record at penny transfers was also incredible.
Nah.
Shows what you're arguing based on. Actually, you're basing it on memes and buzzwords rather than facts as most others here are. You've been hating on moyes for years and now you can't digest the facts.
This is from 2011, but:No it shows how ridiculous some on here are that you say Moyes wasn't performing miracles, which he obviously wasn't and people ludicrously try to argue that he was.
Give me one 'fact' that proves Moyes was performing miracles?
You can't.
This is from 2011, but:
"The latest figures have shown that Everton manager David Moyes is the best value-for-money football boss.
"The figures also showed that Everton has the lowest "price-per-point" ratio among the top ten Premier League teams.
"Everson won 415 points, each costing 48,192 pounds, between Chairman Bill Kenwright's 2004 takeover and the end of the last season."
Now, he did this over long period in charge, so it was not just a freak season. This is no doubt why Sir Alex saw himself in Moyes' approach, as he was never the biggest spender, at least usually. So he was able to get regular top eight finishes with a small squad, a low transfer budget and using the loan market.
I think you are splitting hairs now. It is clear that he was pound-for-pound the best manager in the league, and that was down to his meticulous approach to the job. This is something that clearly impressed Sir Alex, and made him see Moyes as a modern version of himself.Yeah he did a great job at Everton, made them a solid and consistent mid-table side but he wasn't performing miracles.