[sullydnl]

Our PSxG. Gotta laugh.

Ha, yep.

 

[sullydnl]

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Good analysis. Data confirms what’s been obvious for a while. He’s not a good keeper any more. In fact, he’s a below average keeper. I have significant doubts about how Henderson compares with the top CL keepers but the bar has been set so low by De Gea he will probably improve us regardless.

 

[Nickelodeon]

You're totally overlooking the fact that alot of these 1 v 1 chances wouldn't even be 1 v 1's if De Gea had the ability to sense danger, be alert and sweep up/ get to the ball first. Watch a Man Utd match and you will see multiple occasions where a through pass that would be easily swept up by even bang average goalkeepers, ends up in a 1v1 against us because De Gea backtracks to his line. The problem is compounded by the fact that, in my opinion, he's not that great at 1v1s anyway compared to most keepers because he just doesn't have that intimidation factor compared to most keepers.

Last night was just another example of this, but it's happening every single game he plays and its a huge ongoing problem.

It also makes it pretty much impossible for us to play a high defensive line without running the risk of a simple ball in behind catching us out.

I agree that a lack of pace from Maguire and Lindelof makes this issue even worse and its laughable that our coaches aren't noticing this but surely it's not that much to ask that De Gea, as one of the more experienced players, could take the initiative himself and simply be more proactive and alert to balls in behind.

For a supposedly 'top' team to not be able to push up the pitch and play a higher defensive line is a serious disadvantage.

I’m sorry but this is based on a lot of ifs and buts. Give me concrete examples. That means a situation where he should’ve come and cleared but allowed the striker to go 1v1. I would agree to all your assertions had we been a team who tried to play a high line. Due to limitations in our coaching, midfield and defenders (primarily coaching), we have never even tried to play a high line. To randomly blame it on De Gea isn’t correct. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that he’s to blame for this. We can agree to disagree but it is hard for me to agree to something where there’s zero real time examples.

 

[Oranges038]

I’m sorry but this is based on a lot of ifs and buts. Give me concrete examples. That means a situation where he should’ve come and cleared but allowed the striker to go 1v1. I would agree to all your assertions had we been a team who tried to play a high line. Due to limitations in our coaching, midfield and defenders (primarily coaching), we have never even tried to play a high line. To randomly blame it on De Gea isn’t correct. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that he’s to blame for this. We can agree to disagree but it is hard for me to agree to something where there’s zero real time examples.

The second goal last night, last week against Liverpool when Rashford kicked the ball back 50 yards and he should claim it on the edge of the box but instead lets Salah come all the way in the 6 yard box.

The second bolded part. I gave you a video where the greatest keeper ever to play for Utd and one of the best ever explains how the problem of a deep line comes from the keeper. But you choose to ignore it and still continue with your nonsense.

Do you need much more evidence than that? Or is Peter Schmeichel totally wrong?


Like I said to you earlier, go play in goal for a few games. Stay stuck on your line and wait for saves, don't sweep, don't come for crosses or corners, don't organize or talk to your defense and see how badly it affects your defense and the rest of the team.

 

[Based Adnan]

DeGea often twists his body away in order to avoid contact

that's damning

 

[Nickelodeon]

The second goal last night, last week against Liverpool when Rashford kicked the ball back 50 yards and he should claim it on the edge of the box but instead lets Salah come all the way in the 6 yard box.

The second bolded part. I gave you a video where the greatest keeper ever to play for Utd and one of the best ever explains how the problem of a deep line comes from the keeper. But you choose to ignore it and still continue with your nonsense.

Do you need much more evidence than that? Or is Peter Schmeichel totally wrong?


Like I said to you earlier, go play in goal for a few games. Stay stuck on your line and wait for saves, don't sweep, don't come for crosses or corners, don't organize or talk to your defense and see how badly it affects your defense and the rest of the team.

What are you even saying? Even in the best of case, all De Gea could’ve done for both those goals was that he could’ve narrowed the distance which might have resulted in a better chance of saving.

There was never enough space for him to sweep the ball. By this logic, you can literally blame him for every goal. Using his own judgment, he’s saved us more than he’s made any mistakes. His shots stopping stats (xG vs actual goals conceded) is a testament to itself despite the horror show that out defense is. Bruno recently came out and pushed his case for our player of the month. But I see that now there's another agenda to blame the chances on De Gea himself.

I don’t agree with it at all. It’s a theoretical situation which is backed more by a bias than actual facts. I agree there are elements to his game that can be improved. But he’s far from the immediate problem for our team. If we want a higher line, the first step would be a change jn coach, then midfield and probably then we look at the GK. Under a better coach where we have more control of the game and require him sporadically as is the case with other top keepers, his quality will shine because he is an excellent shot stopper which is his primary job. His distribution is serviceable which would work in most setups. It is only his aerial ability where he needs to work and put more effort in.

 

[izec]

Time to upgrade him and Ole

 

[Oranges038]

What are you even saying? Even in the best of case, all De Gea could’ve done for both those goals was that he could’ve narrowed the distance which might have resulted in a better chance of saving.

There was never enough space for him to sweep the ball. By this logic, you can literally blame him for every goal. Using his own judgment, he’s saved us more than he’s made any mistakes. His shots stopping stats (xG vs actual goals conceded) is a testament to itself despite the horror show that out defense is. Bruno recently came out and pushed his case for our player of the month. But I see that now there's another agenda to blame the chances on De Gea himself.

I don’t agree with it at all. It’s a theoretical situation which is backed more by a bias than actual facts. I agree there are elements to his game that can be improved. But he’s far from the immediate problem for our team. If we want a higher line, the first step would be a change jn coach, then midfield and probably then we look at the GK. Under a better coach where we have more control of the game and require him sporadically as is the case with other top keepers, his quality will shine because he is an excellent shot stopper which is his primary job. His distribution is serviceable which would work in most setups. It is only his aerial ability where he needs to work and put more effort in.

Schemichel explains it perfectly in the video.

Go play a load of games in goal, stay stuck to your line waiting for saves, don't come for crosses, don't sweep and don't organise your defense.

Then come back and tell me if playing that way doesn't impact the how high your defence and the rest of your team can play. That it doesn't create chaos and confusion in defence on set pieces and balls into the box.

 

[BerryBerryShrew]

Is it possible that DDG doesn't sweep, claim crosses or close space in 1v1 situations because it affords him more opportunity to make a highlight reel save and reduces the likelihood of making a blooper reel blunder?

People seem to think that he doesn't do these things because he simply can't. The thing is if he comes for 10 crosses, claims 9 but messes up 1 it sticks out in people's minds. But if he stands impassively on his line nobody blames him (even though it is to the overall detriment of the team).

It's the reason why he has fooled fans into thinking that he is having a good season (because his shot stopping is marginally above average) when all of the stats point to the opposite overall.

It also should be noted that the only reason that scrutiny was placed on his passivity was because he started messing up his shot stopping with horrific blunders for the past 2-3 years which made fans question his overall contribution. If he hadn't been making these mistakes, fans would have continued to overlook his limitations and the "De God" hype would continue.

In hindsight, it is laughable that he was ever considered to be on the same level of Neuer or Schmeichel but that's what highlight reel saves while neglecting the fundamentals can do to your reputation.

 

[EtH]

Bit harsh putting this on Ole isn't it? I agree that DDG has clear limitations that has cost us, and will probably continue to do so, but Henderson is not exactly an upgrade and goalkeeper was definitely not a priority this summer.

Ole deserves a lot of criticism, but continuing to start DDG is the right choice in our current situation. This season he has done more good than bad.

Disagree. Henderson should be starting IMO. Just more of the same selection based on reputation rather than performances and non-existent youth promotion from Ole.

 

[TMDaines]

Disagree. Henderson should be starting IMO. Just more of the same selection based on reputation rather than performances and non-existent youth promotion from Ole.

The frustrating thing is that all the sounds coming out of Old Trafford during the summer was that Henderson was to be given the chance to make the #1 his own. He even dropped out of the Euros to have elective surgery, presumably to be completely ready for the new season.

Unfortunately Henderson then got COVID, De Gea made some nice saves and seemingly the management just moved on?

 

[EtH]

The frustrating thing is that all the sounds coming out of Old Trafford during the summer was that Henderson was to be given the chance to make the #1 his own. He even dropped out of the Euros to have elective surgery, presumably to be completely ready for the new season.

Unfortunately Henderson then got COVID, De Gea made some nice saves and seemingly the management just moved on?

Yeah seems to be the case. The timing was indeed awful. I think it’s a much easier decision to run DDG out which plays a part as well.

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

I’m sorry but this is based on a lot of ifs and buts. Give me concrete examples. That means a situation where he should’ve come and cleared but allowed the striker to go 1v1. I would agree to all your assertions had we been a team who tried to play a high line. Due to limitations in our coaching, midfield and defenders (primarily coaching), we have never even tried to play a high line. To randomly blame it on De Gea isn’t correct. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that he’s to blame for this. We can agree to disagree but it is hard for me to agree to something where there’s zero real time examples.

If you've watched any of our matches in full over the past ten years then you've already seen plenty of examples, if you haven't noticed any then you mustn't have watched many of our games. However if you're eyes aren't picking this up then fair enough, check out the following stats for high claims, punches and sweeping, and you will see that every season since De Gea has been here he has ranked in the bottom quarter for all 3 consistently:


https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_keeper_sweeper?po=GOALKEEPER

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_high_claim?po=GOALKEEPER

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/punches?po=GOALKEEPER


This doesn't even include low crosses and distribution, which he is equally horrendous at.

If goalkeeping was simply about shot-stopping, then yes, I could see how someone could defend De Gea, but it's not, fact.

 

[Raven]

To anyone trying to claim Henderson is better than De Gea, you're wrong.

 

[Oranges038]

To anyone trying to claim Henderson is better than De Gea, you're wrong.

It's not just about who's a better keeper, it's about who's a better fit for team as a whole. Goalkeeping is a lot more than making camera saves.

Just have a look at how the team performed overall with Henderson in goal last year.

Same amount of clean sheets in half the amount of games. Less goals conceded per game and more games won. Even when you watch games you can see the defence looks calmer, more organised and assured with Henderson in there. He's offers a lot more than DDG who just stays on his line waiting for saves.

Maybe also go and have a look at why Simon plays ahead of him for Spain.

 

[Pickle85]

Henderson gets better the longer he's out the team, doesn't he?!

 

[Nickelodeon]

If you've watched any of our matches in full over the past ten years then you've already seen plenty of examples, if you haven't noticed any then you mustn't have watched many of our games. However if you're eyes aren't picking this up then fair enough, check out the following stats for high claims, punches and sweeping, and you will see that every season since De Gea has been here he has ranked in the bottom quarter for all 3 consistently:


https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_keeper_sweeper?po=GOALKEEPER

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/total_high_claim?po=GOALKEEPER

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/punches?po=GOALKEEPER


This doesn't even include low crosses and distribution, which he is equally horrendous at.

If goalkeeping was simply about shot-stopping, then yes, I could see how someone could defend De Gea, but it's not, fact.

See one thing that you and the other guy are not understanding is that, I agree that we don’t play a high line so it isn’t surprising that sweeping percentages are low. The point I’m trying to make is that both of you are implying that De Gea is the only reason why we don’t play a high line without giving value to many more critical elements like a manager with a plan.

Going by the data for the season, David Raya has the most sweeper clearances, significantly more than Mendy and Ederson. Do you think it has more to do with keeper or the style of play? Maybe we get a manager who plays a high lime and De Gea really struggles, it would be clear then. But putting the failing of the coaching on De Gea is far fetched indeed.

 

[Name Changed]

So one mistake in the entire season and the talk again is to replace him? Who'd want to be our goalkeeper?!

Where are you getting one from? Two against Atalanta and one against Salah is three. Three bad mistakes.

I would have to rewatch the rest of the goals, but I am sure there'll be more of those that he should have stopped if he wasn't afraid to move off his line.

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

See one thing that you and the other guy are not understanding is that, I agree that we don’t play a high line so it isn’t surprising that sweeping percentages are low. The point I’m trying to make is that both of you are implying that De Gea is the only reason why we don’t play a high line without giving value to many more critical elements like a manager with a plan.

Going by the data for the season, David Raya has the most sweeper clearances, significantly more than Mendy and Ederson. Do you think it has more to do with keeper or the style of play? Maybe we get a manager who plays a high lime and De Gea really struggles, it would be clear then. But putting the failing of the coaching on De Gea is far fetched indeed.

It's more than me and 'another guy', it's a lot of people by the way.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, I agree with you that the coaching set up is shambolic also and that's part of the problem.

As I also said, you can look back over the past ten seasons, since De Gea has been here, and his stats for things like sweeping/coming for crosses are shockingly bad, this pre-dates Solskjaer, this doesn't even account for poor distribution and poor organisational skills.

Am I saying that our problems are all De Gea's fault? Absolutely not.

Am I saying that he has to be a major reason why our defence has been consistently bad since the day he signed (apart from maybe under park the bus Jose) and should be held as accountable as everyone else rather than getting a free pass because he makes the odd save? Absolutely yes.

 

[Oranges038]

See one thing that you and the other guy are not understanding is that, I agree that we don’t play a high line so it isn’t surprising that sweeping percentages are low. The point I’m trying to make is that both of you are implying that De Gea is the only reason why we don’t play a high line without giving value to many more critical elements like a manager with a plan.

Going by the data for the season, David Raya has the most sweeper clearances, significantly more than Mendy and Ederson. Do you think it has more to do with keeper or the style of play? Maybe we get a manager who plays a high lime and De Gea really struggles, it would be clear then. But putting the failing of the coaching on De Gea is far fetched indeed.

Not implying that he is the only reason, he is part of the reason and a massive part of it. Schmeichel explains it perfectly in the video, one of the greatest keepers ever and here you are still rattling on with this crap and saying it's not true, that it's a coaching issue that it's the fault of everyone else but the guy on the pitch who has a major impact on it.

Like I posted to you before - go play in goal - play just like De Gea - just stay in your 6 yard box on your line waiting for saves, don't sweep, don't come for crosses, don't claim corners, don't drop out as a passing option at the back and whatever you do don't talk to or organize your defense. Then come back and tell me this doesn't impact how high the whole team can play and that it doesn't cause chaos in defense and result in more chances and shots on goal and goals being conceded.

 

[Raven]

It's not just about who's a better keeper, it's about who's a better fit for team as a whole. Goalkeeping is a lot more than making camera saves.

Just have a look at how the team performed overall with Henderson in goal last year.

Same amount of clean sheets in half the amount of games. Less goals conceded per game and more games won. Even when you watch games you can see the defence looks calmer, more organised and assured with Henderson in there. He's offers a lot more than DDG who just stays on his line waiting for saves.

Maybe also go and have a look at why Simon plays ahead of him for Spain.

Our recent shit form has very little to do with De Gea and everything to do with Maguire.

Edit: even last season I didn't think much of Henderson when we were on a decent run.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Not implying that he is the only reason, he is part of the reason and a massive part of it. Schmeichel explains it perfectly in the video, one of the greatest keepers ever and here you are still rattling on with this crap and saying it's not true, that it's a coaching issue that it's the fault of everyone else but the guy on the pitch who has a major impact on it.

Like I posted to you before - go play in goal - play just like De Gea - just stay in your 6 yard box on your line waiting for saves, don't sweep, don't come for crosses, don't claim corners, don't drop out as a passing option at the back and whatever you do don't talk to or organize your defense. Then come back and tell me this doesn't impact how high the whole team can play and that it doesn't cause chaos in defense and result in more chances and shots on goal and goals being conceded.

I’ve deliberately chosen not to reply to you anymore because 1) You need to calm down with the language you’re using in your post 2) You’re repeating the same ridiculous arguments that Schmeichel has said a certain thing in a video without name checking De Gea or how I need to play in goal

Again, we are entitled to different opinions. I, personally think that our disastrous defending or lack of a playing a high line has got very little to do with De Gea. While you are implying the opposite.

We’ve reached a point where it’s best to agree to disagree. Same goes for @Kerry Donaghy

 

[Oranges038]

Our recent shit form has very little to do with De Gea and everything to do with Maguire.

Edit: even last season I didn't think much of Henderson when we were on a decent run.

De Gea's passive goalkeeping style does not help his defense out at all, these guys need an aggressive presence behind them that will control them and keep them in check and relieve pressure by sweeping and claiming high balls into the box.

So even though stats show more games won, less goals conceded and the same amount of clean sheets in less games - you still didn't think he was doing as good a job or a better one?

De Gea 20/21
Games - 36
Goals Against - 46
Clean Sheets - 12
Wins - 18
Shots on target against - 126
Saves - 88
Save % - 67.5

Henderson 20/21
Games - 26
Goals Against - 22
Clean Sheets - 12
Wins - 17
Shots on target against - 90
Saves - 68
Save % - 75.6

Less goals conceded per game
On average more games won - 1 games less won in almost half the amount of games
Same amount of clean sheets in almost half the amount of games
Higher save %
Less shots on target per game.

I’ve deliberately chosen not to reply to you anymore because 1) You need to calm down with the language you’re using in your post 2) You’re repeating the same ridiculous arguments that Schmeichel has said a certain thing in a video without name checking De Gea or how I need to play in goal

Again, we are entitled to different opinions. I, personally think that our disastrous defending or lack of a playing a high line has got very little to do with De Gea. While you are implying the opposite.

We’ve reached a point where it’s best to agree to disagree. Same goes for @Kerry Donaghy

Suit yourself. It just proves you do not understand the role of goalkeeper and are unwilling to even accept the views one of the greatest ever who explains the situation with De Gea quite perfectly while describing Ben Foster.

 

[Kerry Donaghy]

I’ve deliberately chosen not to reply to you anymore because 1) You need to calm down with the language you’re using in your post 2) You’re repeating the same ridiculous arguments that Schmeichel has said a certain thing in a video without name checking De Gea or how I need to play in goal

Again, we are entitled to different opinions. I, personally think that our disastrous defending or lack of a playing a high line has got very little to do with De Gea. While you are implying the opposite.

We’ve reached a point where it’s best to agree to disagree. Same goes for @Kerry Donaghy

Football is absolutely all about different opinions, that's what makes the game so great.

However, when it comes to whether or not De Gea's style of goal-keeping does more harm than good, then I'm sorry, the stats are there for all to see.

Goal-keeping is about more than just shot-stopping, that's not a personal opinion, it's just a fact.

 

[lex talionis]

De Gea performed poorly against Atalanta, but the suggestion that Henderson is superior to De Gea today and therefore De Gea must be dropped is absurd.

Someday, sure, and if now is the time to start the rebuild of the squad I’m ok with that as there’s no chance we’re winning a major trophy this season.

 

[devips]

Any re-shaping of our team will have to take care of the problem De Gea first. Dropping him NOW is crucial to the team's future success.

 

[Raven]

De Gea's passive goalkeeping style does not help his defense out at all, these guys need an aggressive presence behind them that will control them and keep them in check and relieve pressure by sweeping and claiming high balls into the box.

So even though stats show more games won, less goals conceded and the same amount of clean sheets in less games - you still didn't think he was doing as good a job or a better one?

De Gea 20/21
Games - 36
Goals Against - 46
Clean Sheets - 12
Wins - 18
Shots on target against - 126
Saves - 88
Save % - 67.5

Henderson 20/21
Games - 26
Goals Against - 22
Clean Sheets - 12
Wins - 17
Shots on target against - 90
Saves - 68
Save % - 75.6

Less goals conceded per game
On average more games won - 1 games less won in almost half the amount of games
Same amount of clean sheets in almost half the amount of games
Higher save %
Less shots on target per game.





Suit yourself. It just proves you do not understand the role of goalkeeper and are unwilling to even accept the views one of the greatest ever who explains the situation with De Gea quite perfectly while describing Ben Foster.

But Henderson was playing ahead of a top form Maguire, who started last season poorly as well (although not as poorly as this season).

 

[Oranges038]

But Henderson was playing ahead of a top form Maguire, who started last season poorly as well (although not as poorly as this season).

Come on, that is just ignoring all the evidence and saying it because Maguire was playing better.

Maybe having a more vocal and commanding presence helped Maguire play that little bit better, like it does with England when he's playing in front of Pickford.

 

[Raven]

Come on, that is just ignoring all the evidence and saying it because Maguire was playing better.

Maybe having a more vocal and commanding presence helped Maguire play that little bit better, like it does with England when he's playing in front of Pickford.

I'm ignoring all the evidence? I just said one of our CBs has been shite this season, as he was for the first few months of last season, if a CB is letting you down, the keepers job becomes extremely difficult.

There are areas of his game that simply aren't good enough, such as coming off his line but Henderson isn't much better at it, at all. Henderson is a bang average keeper at best, replacing De Gea with him would just be brainless.

 

[Oranges038]

I'm ignoring all the evidence? I just said one of our CBs has been shite this season, as he was for the first few months of last season, if a CB is letting you down, the keepers job becomes extremely difficult.

There are areas of his game that simply aren't good enough, such as coming off his line but Henderson isn't much better at it, at all. Henderson is a bang average keeper at best, replacing De Gea with him would just be brainless.

Yes, you are ignoring all the evidence and making out like the keeper has no bearing on the defense, that there's no correlation between Henderson playing last season and the team looking more assured and organised at the back and as a result conceding less goals and winning more games.

Why did Enrique make the brainless decision to replace him with Simon then? He's not any better than De Gea or Henderson.

 

[Siezard]

If De Gea had rushed out for the second goal, he might have caused a penalty and maybe get a yellow card.

Also, rushing out may not be the best option at times. Sometimes, the goalkeeper will leave the goal empty for tap-ins.

 

[Raven]

Yes, you are ignoring all the evidence and making out like the keeper has no bearing on the defense, that there's no correlation between Henderson playing last season and the team looking more assured and organised at the back and as a result conceding less goals and winning more games.

Why did Enrique make the brainless decision to replace him with Simon then? He's not any better than De Gea or Henderson.

I'm not ignoring a thing, Maguire's played well in front of De Gea as well, even when De Gea was in shite form.

 

[Lyng]

De Gea has deficiencies. And we do need to look to replace him. I am not sure Henderson is the answer though. He has looked bang average for us.
Also, any keeper will struggle with Maguire in front of them.

 

[Desert Eagle]

The new contract was a huge mistake. A lot of people said it at the time.

He's been good this season though. His kicking is better. But he still doesn't come out or claim crosses nearly enough. Not commanding and doesn't catch the ball enough.

A new manager might get rid and would be tough to blame him. The question is who would take him?

 

[sullydnl]

If De Gea had rushed out for the second goal, he might have caused a penalty and maybe get a yellow card.

Also, rushing out may not be the best option at times. Sometimes, the goalkeeper will leave the goal empty for tap-ins.

You're right, sometimes coming out isn't the best option depending on where the attacker is getting the ball and/or taking the shot from. For example De Gea is excellent at longer distance 1v1s, specifically because he stays patient, doesn't give the attacker an easy option and trusts his reflexes to make the save. Whereas we've regularly seen someone like Ederson rush out in those same situations and give the attacker an easy finish.

In this particular case though, De Gea needed to come out and smother the attacker. It's too easy for him to be beaten at that range if he doesn't.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Worth reading the whole thread there. I work it out that DDG’s lack of cross claiming and sweeping is responsible for 8 goals conceded a season from his numbers. That’s before you get into the structural issues that his stay on the line style causes.

The conclusion



It is interesting to look at Henderson’s numbers last season too. With him in goal we’d concede slightly less that one goal a game projected across the season which would be close to the elite defences. It will be interesting to see how the next manager views the goalkeeper situation.

Thats not to say that Dean is the answer but it perhaps suggests that a goalkeeper with a more modern style is of net benefit, if that was ever in doubt.

 

[Name Changed]

Played well but shocking for the second goal. Afraid of getting hurt by the post this time

 

[FahadiHossein]

Poor guy. He has to keep a clean sheet against KdB, Maguire, Gabriel Jesus, Foden, Bailly, Shaw, and Bernardo Silva.

 

[Based Adnan]

Not his biggest fan but he had a good game despite being piss poor for the second goal. Would have been 4 or 5.