Danny Welbeck to Sunderland (Loan Watch)

Fiskey said:
Just don't agree, from memory of watching the matches he's always been wide left with license and the heat maps would back it up. It is also possible to have a look at Henry's maps and they don't look like that.
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Okay then, I've posted up my recollection how about you post up every sunderland match's heatmap.

It'll also be helpful if you can post up the heat maps of Zenden and Reid when they've been on the pitch at the same time as Welbeck as (more-so) Zenden and sometimes Reid comes to the left hand side to play.

His first matches were definitely in the middle, as I've re-read my posts in this thread after watching the matches.
 
Fiskey said:
Just for illustration, difference between Henry and Welbeck

Henry (tried to pick random game) Arsenal v Everton (28.10.2006) : Chalkboards | Published chalkboard Chalkboards saved - 5072X7xa3xDI6t494sl7 | Football | guardian.co.uk

Welbeck (game where you said he played up front) Sunderland v Arsenal (18.09.2010) : Chalkboards | Published chalkboard Chalkboards saved - 7Z110X1q4d203HDPIcqV | Football | guardian.co.uk

You can see a lot of Henry's passes are more central, and when he goes wide left its in a much more advanced position than where Welbeck is.
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That isnt a heat map. Thats where he passed the ball. Thats where he concentrated his distribution, nothing at all to do with heat.

These are heatmaps :

Steed Malbranque (started wide left, was replaced by a sub)

jjshmc.jpg


Al Muhammady (started wide right, played full 90)

214yr8o.jpg


Danny Welbeck (started up front with Bent, moved to the left after 64 mins when Gyan was subbed on)

w6txs4.jpg


Darren Bent (striker, played all match)

i519iv.jpg
 
One thing that has definitely improved is his strength on the ball, it was a minefield today but he withstood it well and drew a foul and won a corner with his runs in the 1st half.
 
Ekeke said:
Well because Bent will score them lots of goals in the premier league. Welbeck is yet to show he can do that on a regular basis. He's simply not going to compete with a proven goalscorer like Bent even if he was Sunderland's player. And he has played some of his matches up front with Bent.

On the wing, hard work, good running, good linkup play but no real goal threat could still amount to a good performance.

When he's played like that through the middle for Sunderland its not that good of a performance. And thats likely to be a factor as to why its Welbeck being moved onto the wing.
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Bent will score more then Welbeck but the point is bent is a striker and will play striker because that's his best position. Welbeck is still a striker at the end of the day. He's not the sort of player to run the byline and cross so if they play 4-4-2 I don't think it will get the best out of him. It's different to United playing him there

Sunderland could persist but Welbecks been moved in addition because they bought that Asamoah Gyan, have bent fit and don't need him up top and he needs games and I imagine Sir Alex would also give bruce a bollocking if he wasn't played :)

I can understand Sunderland fans moaning but when it comes to us lot, I don't see it. It's 'easier' when you play with better players, for a better team (especially the team you support). I think we can only take positives from it. Welbeck will still come back a better player at the end of it all.
 
Ekeke said:
That isnt a heat map. Thats where he passed the ball. Thats where he concentrated his distribution, nothing at all to do with heat.

These are heatmaps :

Steed Malbranque (started wide left, was replaced by a sub)

jjshmc.jpg


Al Muhammady (started wide right, played full 90)

214yr8o.jpg


Danny Welbeck (started up front with Bent, moved to the left after 64 mins when Gyan was subbed on)

w6txs4.jpg


Darren Bent (striker, played all match)

i519iv.jpg
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I think they prove my point, he's playing on the left wing with licence to roam. Where did you get those pictures, would be interested to see them although I don't think they really show much different to what the Guardian one's show. Compare Welbeck to Bent, you can't say he's playing up front.
 
Striker10 said:
Bent will score more then Welbeck but the point is bent is a striker and will play striker because that's his best position. Welbeck is still a striker at the end of the day. He's not the sort of player to run the byline and cross so if they play 4-4-2 I don't think it will get the best out of him. It's different to United playing him there

Sunderland could persist but Welbecks been moved in addition because they bought that Asamoah Gyan, have bent fit and don't need him up top and he needs games and I imagine Sir Alex would also give bruce a bollocking if he wasn't played :)

I can understand sunderland fans moaning but when it comes to us lot, I don't see it. It's 'easier' when you play with better players, for a better team (especially the team you support). I think we can only take positives from it.
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Well Gyan has hardly done anything more than Welbeck, so its not an issue yet. He's got less game time up front too.

Welbeck might be given an extended run up front when he's scoring goals. Why on earth would Sunderland play him there at the expense of Bent when he hasnt got a goal yet?

Most of his earlier matches were up front. Had he have scored playing there he might have continued to play there. Its not like he hasnt been given the oppertunity to get a goal or two by now, it just hasnt happened for him.
 
Fiskey said:
I think they prove my point, he's playing on the left wing with licence to roam. Where did you get those pictures, would be interested to see them although I don't think they really show much different to what the Guardian one's show. Compare Welbeck to Bent, you can't say he's playing up front.
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They dont prove your point, because Richardson's map is like Evra's going right up and down the wing and Malbranque is the one playing left wing.

Obviously as a right footer he comes inside as well, and Welbeck's pulling wide which he always does, also works well with Malbranque out there.

But here's the key point. The final third, not the buildup phase where Welbeck pulls wide to get on the ball and run the channel.

In the final third Malbranque is the one getting wide and crossing the ball in. Welbeck is in the box. Because Malbranque is not the striker, Welbeck is.

Also after 64 minutes Gyan comes on and if I recall, and keep mentioning, thats when Welbeck had to go wide. Gyan's heatmap indicates he's definitely in the middle as with Bent.
 
Ekeke said:
Well Gyan has hardly done anything more than Welbeck, so its not an issue yet. He's got less game time up front too.

Welbeck might be given an extended run up front when he's scoring goals. Why on earth would Sunderland play him there at the expense of Bent when he hasnt got a goal yet?

Most of his earlier matches were up front. Had he have scored playing there he might have continued to play there. Its not like he hasnt been given the oppertunity to get a goal or two by now, it just hasnt happened for him.
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You just provided evidence that shows he hasn't been playing up front?

Edit: Didn't see post above
 
Fiskey said:
You just provided evidence that shows he hasn't been playing up front?

Edit: Didn't see post above
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It shows he did work down the left, but almost all of it on the half way line when Sunderland were in their buildup phase. If he was left wing he'd be delivering from the left in the final third, even if like Nani he was coming inside onto his right foot it'd show an inside left crossing position. But it doesnt because he's in the box as all good strikers are. Except for 25 minutes or so when Gyan came on.

by the way you asked where I got the maps, soccernet has them
 
Ekeke said:
They dont prove your point, because Richardson's map is like Evra's going right up and down the wing and Malbranque is the one playing left wing.

Obviously as a right footer he comes inside as well, and Welbeck's pulling wide which he always does, also works well with Malbranque out there.

But here's the key point. The final third, not the buildup phase where Welbeck pulls wide to get on the ball and run the channel.

In the final third Malbranque is the one getting wide and crossing the ball in. Welbeck is in the box. Because Malbranque is not the striker, Welbeck is.

Also after 64 minutes Gyan comes on and if I recall, and keep mentioning, thats when Welbeck had to go wide. Gyan's heatmap indicates he's definitely in the middle as with Bent.
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Part of his job is to get in the box and try and use his height, doesn't mean he's playing up front. Fletcher does the same thing for us, doesn't mean he's playing up front. Wingers don't have to be the one's crossing the ball in, the maps show Malbranque is playing on the left side of a midfield 3 and therefore will occasionally be involved in final third build up on the left and provide some crosses.

Would it be possible for you to post some other matches Welbeck has played in that heatmap format and we can see if his position is any different in this match to what it usually is.
 
Nope but I'm sure you'll want to post them as heatmaps were your argument. Mine was my provided recollection of the matches he's played so far for Sunderland. There's nothing wrong with it.
 
SittingBull said:
Based on that logic, is Liverpool the 12th best team in England?
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Oh, I'm sorry. Guess I was thrown by the sheer meaninglessness of the term 'top 10 team'. Go on then....list the teams you so categorically predict he'll never be good enough for.
 
Very ordinary yesterday. But at least he's playing, I am worried about his productivity though, he doesn't seem to have much end product.
 
What we are all forgetting here. Is that Welbeck is from Manchester, one of our own players and the last time I checked he is English.

This ticks zero boxes as to what you need to be to keep muppets on here happy.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He actually gave the ball away?

Disgraceful. Not necessarily a misplaced pass, of course, but disgraceful all the same.
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Your telling me.... I couldn't believe man!!

Nearly spat out my cornflakes. He's lucking cause man are broke right now aswell so would have had to have charged him for that bhoy.
 
KM said:
So he played for Sunderland upfront against Stoke 2-0 and actually had his best match(according to some there)

Danny Welbeck - RTG Sunderland Message Boards
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But wait. You mean he's been mainly playing wide up until now? And Ekeke was actually wrong, despite posting essay after essay to grind Fiskey into submission?

Surely not? That would be very out of character.

Glad to hear Danny had a good game. Hope he gets a few more chances in his preferred position.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But wait. You mean he's been mainly playing wide up until now? And Ekeke was actually wrong, despite posting essay after essay to grind Fiskey into submission?

Surely not? That would be very out of character.

Glad to hear Danny had a good game. Hope he gets a few more chances in his preferred position.
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:lol:
 
Only caught the last 5 minutes + stoppage time of today's match against Spurs, but in that time Welbeck was causing all sorts of problems for Spurs. Which is promising. Did anyone see how he did tonight?
 
Ekeke said:
Only caught the last 5 minutes + stoppage time of today's match against Spurs, but in that time Welbeck was causing all sorts of problems for Spurs. Which is promising. Did anyone see how he did tonight?
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Came on in the second half. Was very involved in the game. Showed great holding strength at times. Some good touches. Had a decent game in my opinion.
 
He's been credited with the assist for the Sunderland goal I believe. Although a post on the Sunderland forum makes me think it might not have been brilliant.
 
Ekeke said:
Only caught the last 5 minutes + stoppage time of today's match against Spurs, but in that time Welbeck was causing all sorts of problems for Spurs. Which is promising. Did anyone see how he did tonight?
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He came on as a sub. Did very well I thought. Looked their best player. Refreshing after having to have the displeasure of witnessing Richardson try and play football. But welbeck really does need to find some end product. He's good at dropping deep and contributing to the buildup. But his end product is poor.
 
Ubik said:
He's been credited with the assist for the Sunderland goal I believe. Although a post on the Sunderland forum makes me think it might not have been brilliant.
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It was a mistake by the two Spurs central defenders who both went for the same ball and missed it completely allowing Gyan to score.
 
Good dribble for his assist. He does seem to run himself into corners a lot though, and needs to be a bit calmer around the edge of the box when trying to pick out a pass or a shot.

Did well today for the most part, really confident in his dribbling.
 
His assist was a lucky assist, but until he came into the match at HT Sunderland offered NIL going forward.

With him on, Gyan found a bit more space, and they looked lively. Welbeck was more good than bad, he is a bit erratic, looking to pass when he should go for goal, and going for goal, when he should pass...but that's all down to youth and experience. The more he plays, the more he'll figure this stuff out.

I think his introduction was a big factor in how Sunderland played while on the counter in the 2nd half.
 
Regular football is turning him into a cracking player. To paraphrase Hansen, pace, power, technique...
 
That's probably the best I've seen Danny play. Great first half.
 
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