Cant believe this thread survived the weekend i must apologise to the previous posters who have donated their precious time to dedicate these 5000 word dissertations on Welbeck. Maybe when the rain is pouring down hard and my xbox live account has ran its course i will come back and read through this thread and possibly learn something i never knew about Arsenals newest addition. But honestly how many more over complicated glaring misses will our boy Danny have to make before people realise this was the right move for everyone involved. Whether he somehow becomes prolific (hits high double figures) or not, i somehow never see myself feeling angry and confused about his (self engineered) move to arsenal.
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal player
- Thread starter KiD MoYeS
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Of course he's not solely responsible, if Arse scored at that point with all the momentum it would have made a hell of a lot of difference and the game would most likely gone in their favour. You can't downplay the importance of an early goal in such a game.
@JSMHE
Louis van Gaal's sports scientists will have gone into much more depth with their analysis than you have. This is obvious, Louis van Gaal has spoken of the in depth analysis he carries out on each player, it is not an assumption when he states it as fact in an interview.
Your analysis does not even control for variables, in sports science this is incredibly important otherwise the data can be rendered unreliable.
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Once more you provide statistics without controlling for other variables. Why not stop using statistics when you don't know how?
Also, how do I know you are not making these numbers up? I have asked for sources to verify those statistics yet you refuse to provide them.
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HAHAHA, you are the one who made a statement and so I asked you to provide sources and you return by saying 'no you find the source'. If you make the statement it is on you to prove it, this is your most amateurish mistake yet.
This is what basically just happened:
(you) 'Off the top of my head these are the stats.'
(me) 'please provide sources so I can verify these'
(you) 'no, you find the sources'.
If you provide those stats to prove a point then it is on you to provide the sources, 'off the top of my head' is not a source and open to immense errors.
Furthermore you need to go more indepth with your analysis, look at Welbeck's total game. Louis van Gaal does not only value poachers as strikers, you might need to educate yourself on his system a little more, his strikers tend to be involved in link up play.
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You say it is another assumption by me yet I asked you a question. At least you admit Welbeck is poor in his assists, now understand Louis van Gaal does not value only goals from his striker.
It is possible Louis van Gaal looked at this in his analysis.
This further shows he has not done enough previously to justify more time to show what he can do.
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Louis van Gaal does not care whether RVP is only famous for goals, he cares about what RVP can do and he determined both Rooney and RVP do things better than Welbeck. You see, he said 'record' and not 'stats of goals', a record can also look at other characteristics such as assists, you have now learned when I said 'Record could mean anything' I was not assuming but you were the one assuming, no? I think yes, too many assumptions are not good for your arguments.
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So stop using other people's statistics, people can get things wrong too....
Louis van Gaal was not harsh in thinking Welbeck is not as good as Rooney, RVP, Falcao or Wilson (potential).
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Louis van Gaal did not sell Welbeck based only on his goal scoring record, look into the philosophy, he does not use only poachers. He sold Welbeck because he was not good enough to be his striker and his strikers often do more than just score goals.
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So it's ok for Rafael to start and not play 90 mins but not for RVP? Biased point once more, if RVP is fit enough to play 60 minutes then he should play 60 minutes, you here are suggesting Welbeck should start and go off after 30 minutes because otherwise RVP would not get his 60 minutes.
Louis van Gaal concluded RVP could play about an hour, like Rafael, and he let them both play for an hour.
RVP was fit enough to be selected, Louis van Gaal evidently disagrees with your suggestion he wasn't.
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You seem to keep ignoring the David Moyes point. The reality is Louis van Gaal was decisive in the transfer window and his assessment of the squad, you are suggesting more time like Moyes gave the players should have been afforded to Welbeck.
Louis van Gaal has shown he is an excellent judge, why should he give a player one season when pre-season is enough to show he is not on the level of Rooney or RVP?
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You miss the mid-table club point. The point was that at a mid-table club with less ambition giving a player one season is easier, Louis van Gaal must get top four therefore he has less time to assess the squad, if Welbeck is not good enough but Falcao is, then things must happen.
Pay attention to these points.
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Once more, he has all of pre-season and also training. Louis van Gaal cannot give his players premier league matches just to show what they can do, this is not how you get champions league football.
Louis van Gaal's sports scientists will have gone into much more depth with their analysis than you have. This is obvious, Louis van Gaal has spoken of the in depth analysis he carries out on each player, it is not an assumption when he states it as fact in an interview.
Your analysis does not even control for variables, in sports science this is incredibly important otherwise the data can be rendered unreliable.
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Once more you provide statistics without controlling for other variables. Why not stop using statistics when you don't know how?
Also, how do I know you are not making these numbers up? I have asked for sources to verify those statistics yet you refuse to provide them.
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HAHAHA, you are the one who made a statement and so I asked you to provide sources and you return by saying 'no you find the source'. If you make the statement it is on you to prove it, this is your most amateurish mistake yet.
This is what basically just happened:
(you) 'Off the top of my head these are the stats.'
(me) 'please provide sources so I can verify these'
(you) 'no, you find the sources'.
If you provide those stats to prove a point then it is on you to provide the sources, 'off the top of my head' is not a source and open to immense errors.
Furthermore you need to go more indepth with your analysis, look at Welbeck's total game. Louis van Gaal does not only value poachers as strikers, you might need to educate yourself on his system a little more, his strikers tend to be involved in link up play.
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You say it is another assumption by me yet I asked you a question. At least you admit Welbeck is poor in his assists, now understand Louis van Gaal does not value only goals from his striker.
It is possible Louis van Gaal looked at this in his analysis.
This further shows he has not done enough previously to justify more time to show what he can do.
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Louis van Gaal does not care whether RVP is only famous for goals, he cares about what RVP can do and he determined both Rooney and RVP do things better than Welbeck. You see, he said 'record' and not 'stats of goals', a record can also look at other characteristics such as assists, you have now learned when I said 'Record could mean anything' I was not assuming but you were the one assuming, no? I think yes, too many assumptions are not good for your arguments.
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So stop using other people's statistics, people can get things wrong too....
Louis van Gaal was not harsh in thinking Welbeck is not as good as Rooney, RVP, Falcao or Wilson (potential).
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Louis van Gaal did not sell Welbeck based only on his goal scoring record, look into the philosophy, he does not use only poachers. He sold Welbeck because he was not good enough to be his striker and his strikers often do more than just score goals.
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So it's ok for Rafael to start and not play 90 mins but not for RVP? Biased point once more, if RVP is fit enough to play 60 minutes then he should play 60 minutes, you here are suggesting Welbeck should start and go off after 30 minutes because otherwise RVP would not get his 60 minutes.
Louis van Gaal concluded RVP could play about an hour, like Rafael, and he let them both play for an hour.
RVP was fit enough to be selected, Louis van Gaal evidently disagrees with your suggestion he wasn't.
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You seem to keep ignoring the David Moyes point. The reality is Louis van Gaal was decisive in the transfer window and his assessment of the squad, you are suggesting more time like Moyes gave the players should have been afforded to Welbeck.
Louis van Gaal has shown he is an excellent judge, why should he give a player one season when pre-season is enough to show he is not on the level of Rooney or RVP?
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You miss the mid-table club point. The point was that at a mid-table club with less ambition giving a player one season is easier, Louis van Gaal must get top four therefore he has less time to assess the squad, if Welbeck is not good enough but Falcao is, then things must happen.
Pay attention to these points.
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Once more, he has all of pre-season and also training. Louis van Gaal cannot give his players premier league matches just to show what they can do, this is not how you get champions league football.
The length of some of these posts is astonishing 
JSMHE is of the opinion Welbeck should have been afforded more time to show what he can do as a striker.
I am of the opinion Louis van Gaal had to be decisive if he wants top four, he must assemble a squad that can get top four and if he determined Welbeck was not at the level of RVP or Rooney then he must take action, such as bringing Falcao in.
There is simply a difference of opinion.
@Empire Sigh.
There is no proof that he used his sport scientist or whatever it is to see a report and stats of Danny Welbeck. So it is just your assumption
Look punk. Why don't you just waste your time to search the website to prove that my stats is wrong instead of complaining with me. Oh by the way my bad I forgot one more game. And It was against City when we lost 4-1. So it was 9 goals in a 15 league matches as a starter and 2 came on from the bench above 20 mins which was Norwich and WBA. I challenged you to prove it wrong. I doubt you can do it because it is correct
Apart from his goal scoring record, Falcao is very poor in his assists record. Falcao is more as a poacher than Welbeck. And Welbeck isn't a poacher type.
It's not ok to start Rafael. I never said it's ok the idea of starting him. It was a risk LVG took. But since Rafael did well, then okay the risk was paid off to give him game time before starting a full 90 mins game. It's not a biased thing. RVP was unfit, and LVG took a risk to play him twice and in the end he didn't play well and worse than Welbeck against Burnley and Sunderland.
May be if you are talking about Young, Valencia, Nani, Anderson then I must say they are indeed already had their chances way too much before Moyes took in charge. And Cleverley isn't showing any quality. But Welbeck showed that he got the potential and ability to play for this club. He looks so potential in 2011/2012. He played wide in 2012/2013 and people called him shit based on his goals. But in 2013/2014 he improved so much and showed what he was capable of.
I doubt I missed it. You are the one who missed mine. So pay attention on these two sentences:
What I meant was if a quality player like Welbeck (who is a big club quality) mid table doesn't need to give him a chance because he will be the key player. If it is a quality of the current Cleverley then just like you said a mid table club with less ambition giving Cleverley one season is easier.[/user]
There is no proof that he used his sport scientist or whatever it is to see a report and stats of Danny Welbeck. So it is just your assumption
Look punk. Why don't you just waste your time to search the website to prove that my stats is wrong instead of complaining with me. Oh by the way my bad I forgot one more game. And It was against City when we lost 4-1. So it was 9 goals in a 15 league matches as a starter and 2 came on from the bench above 20 mins which was Norwich and WBA. I challenged you to prove it wrong. I doubt you can do it because it is correct
Apart from his goal scoring record, Falcao is very poor in his assists record. Falcao is more as a poacher than Welbeck. And Welbeck isn't a poacher type.
It's not ok to start Rafael. I never said it's ok the idea of starting him. It was a risk LVG took. But since Rafael did well, then okay the risk was paid off to give him game time before starting a full 90 mins game. It's not a biased thing. RVP was unfit, and LVG took a risk to play him twice and in the end he didn't play well and worse than Welbeck against Burnley and Sunderland.
May be if you are talking about Young, Valencia, Nani, Anderson then I must say they are indeed already had their chances way too much before Moyes took in charge. And Cleverley isn't showing any quality. But Welbeck showed that he got the potential and ability to play for this club. He looks so potential in 2011/2012. He played wide in 2012/2013 and people called him shit based on his goals. But in 2013/2014 he improved so much and showed what he was capable of.
I doubt I missed it. You are the one who missed mine. So pay attention on these two sentences:
What I meant was if a quality player like Welbeck (who is a big club quality) mid table doesn't need to give him a chance because he will be the key player. If it is a quality of the current Cleverley then just like you said a mid table club with less ambition giving Cleverley one season is easier.[/user]
Pretty sure it was Rooney who scored in that 4-1 loss to City, cracking free kick too.
What I meant is.. I forgot that Welbeck was a starter against City 4-1 loss. So I add one from 14 starter into 15 starter. I already double check it again. So I don't think I missed his league starter anymore.
OK sure my bad, thought you were talking about goals.
no worries.
To me, it feels like the English fans are Rooney's harshest critics.
I don't know about the English fans. But I think people who critics him are based on the wage and his performance isn't equally.
Still like this guy though but I wish he is just the same old Rooney.. He used to work hard, run a lot, energetic, got pace and skill and consistent.
Rooneys a terrific player, but he's just not a very good player in the hole. When you compare performances and statistics with Mata for example then you see how poor Rooney actually is in that position. It's the same scenario with Danny, he's terrible as a wide forward, his goal scoring, assists, win rate is shocking not to mention his all round game. If you look at his stats as a CF though his stats look very good, one of the best conversion rates in the league last season.
This is why using statistics can be misleading. As you really have to take into consideration a players position.
I think the old Rooney can play in that role really well. However the Rooney now is a different player with the old one. He is more as a poacher or number 9 now.
Never like using stats to judge player. Stats is only used to judge the number goals record. And yet some people forgot where Welbeck spent a lot of his time as a wide player.
Rooney was never able to pass the ball accurately enough to play as a #10. Mata is able to play all kinds of balls and yet keeps his passing accuracy very high. Rooneys a very good goal scorer his best position has always been up top for me.
As for statistics, I think it's fine as long as you understand how to use them and ensuring you have comparisons. I always get a Per Game stat as that tells you more than a season total. It's a far better way of comparing players attributes.
I'm a Danny Wellbeck fan and I was sad to see him go. Playing for Arsenal will make or break him but I think it will be the former especially with Arsene Wenger's guidance. Danny couldn't be playing under a better manager for his particular development.
But Louis Van Gaal was clear, concise and fair when he said that Danny was allowed to leave because the standard at United was Wayne Rooney and Robin Van Persie. A fit Danny Wellbeck is not on the same level as a fit Robin Van Persie or fit Wayne Rooney. LVG had to call it as he saw it as of the present.
But Louis Van Gaal was clear, concise and fair when he said that Danny was allowed to leave because the standard at United was Wayne Rooney and Robin Van Persie. A fit Danny Wellbeck is not on the same level as a fit Robin Van Persie or fit Wayne Rooney. LVG had to call it as he saw it as of the present.
Currently, yes. He may be in the future. He may not be. I think that we would have afforded him a decent chance to prove himself if Fergie was still here.
But right now all conjecture is pointless, and results will indicate who is right on this issue.
This thread. 
Rooney's scoring rate is impressive in light of him so often playing positions other than lead striker.
Even when Tevez and Ronaldo were here, and Rooney was ostensibly a striker, he often dropped deep, sacrificing goals to set up those two.
I completely agree he's two different players in those two positions.
I rate Welbeck, and his conversion rate when playing up front is no fluke. He really did improve last season.
But for the sake of his own career I've been thinking he should move on for a season now.
He deserves first team football in his favored position. He sacrificed for two seasons playing out wide and playing smothering defense for the team.
I feel he earned either a shot with us or the privilege to go to the team best for him, even if it's Arsenal.
@JSMHE dont see why you keep responding to Empire's post. He has no interest in refuting anything you state with facts. Notice how in all his posts he didn't even bother looking up the stats himself but keeps going on about how he can't be too sure about your stats since he has no way of verifying them when there's a number of websites which provides stats. He talks about assumptions yet all he practically assumes in every single point he made
@dirkey is another one who suffers from confirmation bias. just look at his posts before welbeck's position was ever in question. How can someone use stats to make a player look prolific? that dont even make sense since they are facts no?
@dirkey is another one who suffers from confirmation bias. just look at his posts before welbeck's position was ever in question. How can someone use stats to make a player look prolific?
that dont even make sense since they are facts no?What on Earth is going on in here?
Let it go, just let it go.
Let it go, just let it go.
[/QUOTE]Nah, future results will not indicate who is right or wrong as pretty much everyone has ended up right here. Danny wanted to play every game here, this season. That was not going to happen under any manager really.
Nah, future results will not indicate who is right or wrong as pretty much everyone has ended up right here. Danny wanted to play every game here, this season. That was not going to happen under any manager really.[/QUOTE]
If he has an excellent season with the Arse while our strikers flounder, questions will be asked, and rightly so. That's just one of many permutations of events that could occur.
If he has an excellent season with the Arse while our strikers flounder, questions will be asked, and rightly so. That's just one of many permutations of events that could occur.
@JSMHE dont see why you keep responding to Empire's post. He has no interest in refuting anything you state with facts. Notice how in all his posts he didn't even bother looking up the stats himself but keeps going on about how he can't be too sure about your stats since he has no way of verifying them when there's a number of websites which provides stats. He talks about assumptions yet all he practically assumes in every single point he made
@dirkey is another one who suffers from confirmation bias. just look at his posts before welbeck's position was ever in question. How can someone use stats to make a player look prolific?
He got so many assumptions which none can keep up.
I doubt it is even stats anyway. Stats should provide graphic and more detail. It was just "a fact" of Welbeck total goals, number of times he plays as a starter, and number of time he plays above 20 mins came on from the bench + the position he usually spent. I prefer to watch games to judge players. I never like use stats. That's why I don't like use a website of statistic. He seems call mine as a stats, so I just follow what he thinks. I'm sure there are a lot of websites out there which I could use as a proof, but as I said before I never like use stats. And you see, he is just here to cringe me so I will just follow his game.
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Hmm, could you clarify which posts you mean, and what exactly you're talking about?@JSMHE dont see why you keep responding to Empire's post. He has no interest in refuting anything you state with facts. Notice how in all his posts he didn't even bother looking up the stats himself but keeps going on about how he can't be too sure about your stats since he has no way of verifying them when there's a number of websites which provides stats. He talks about assumptions yet all he practically assumes in every single point he made
@dirkey is another one who suffers from confirmation bias. just look at his posts before welbeck's position was ever in question. How can someone use stats to make a player look prolific?
@JSMHE
You say there is no proof he even used sports scientists to assess Welbeck.
So what do you think he used? Wikipedia?
He has stated numerous times his use of sports science. From what he has said this is very important to him, I do not think he is a liar and I think he uses sports science to analyse his players and much more.
You say:
Look punk. Why don't you just waste your time to search the website to prove that my stats is wrong instead of complaining with me. Oh by the way my bad I forgot one more game. And It was against City when we lost 4-1. So it was 9 goals in a 15 league matches as a starter and 2 came on from the bench above 20 mins which was Norwich and WBA. I challenged you to prove it wrong. I doubt you can do it because it is correct
You provided statistics without any sources, I asked for sources so I could verify these were accurate and not made up and then you told me to find the sources myself. I replied merely pointing out those statistics cannot be used to support your argument if you do not allow somebody to verify them.
Also the stats you provided were very basic, I said if you want to do a comparison between Welbeck's scoring record and RVP then we must also control for things like minutes played etc. The season of RVP you used had Adebayor playing 44 games and Henry at the club!! So who knows when RVP was playing his games.
Either don't use statistics in your argument or use them, verify them and also control for variables otherwise your comparison is unreliable.
Furthermore, Louis van Gaal has a profile he wants for each player and that must be met. This profile tends to go beyond goal scoring rate, clearly Welbeck did not impress him.
Apart from his goal scoring record, Falcao is very poor in his assists record. Falcao is more as a poacher than Welbeck. And Welbeck isn't a poacher type.
Perhaps in a two up top Louis van Gaal wanted one involved in link up play and the other trying to make runs in behind.
Welbeck is not at the standard of Rooney or RVP, this is a fair point by Louis van Gaal.
Perhaps Falcao is to replace Hernandez and Rooney / RVP are used instead of Welbeck.
The bottom line is that Falcao, Rooney and RVP met the standard but Hernandez and Welbeck did not.
You say once more Louis van Gaal should not have selected RVP because he was unfit
But Louis van Gaal will only select a player who is fit enough to complete a specific amount of minutes and he and his fitness experts deemed RVP fit enough to be selected.
Why is your opinion superior to that of Louis van Gaal and his fitness expert?
And once more you miss the point I made, I told you to pay attention originally so instead of you then telling me to pay attention you should probably do it first. You are turning it into another point, my point was at a club going for top four a manager does not have one entire season to assess his squad but at a mid-table club he does. If you want to make a separate point that also is fine but you should not change the point you are addressing to suit your argument.
You say there is no proof he even used sports scientists to assess Welbeck.
So what do you think he used? Wikipedia?
He has stated numerous times his use of sports science. From what he has said this is very important to him, I do not think he is a liar and I think he uses sports science to analyse his players and much more.
You say:
Look punk. Why don't you just waste your time to search the website to prove that my stats is wrong instead of complaining with me. Oh by the way my bad I forgot one more game. And It was against City when we lost 4-1. So it was 9 goals in a 15 league matches as a starter and 2 came on from the bench above 20 mins which was Norwich and WBA. I challenged you to prove it wrong. I doubt you can do it because it is correct
You provided statistics without any sources, I asked for sources so I could verify these were accurate and not made up and then you told me to find the sources myself. I replied merely pointing out those statistics cannot be used to support your argument if you do not allow somebody to verify them.
Also the stats you provided were very basic, I said if you want to do a comparison between Welbeck's scoring record and RVP then we must also control for things like minutes played etc. The season of RVP you used had Adebayor playing 44 games and Henry at the club!! So who knows when RVP was playing his games.
Either don't use statistics in your argument or use them, verify them and also control for variables otherwise your comparison is unreliable.
Furthermore, Louis van Gaal has a profile he wants for each player and that must be met. This profile tends to go beyond goal scoring rate, clearly Welbeck did not impress him.
Apart from his goal scoring record, Falcao is very poor in his assists record. Falcao is more as a poacher than Welbeck. And Welbeck isn't a poacher type.
Perhaps in a two up top Louis van Gaal wanted one involved in link up play and the other trying to make runs in behind.
Welbeck is not at the standard of Rooney or RVP, this is a fair point by Louis van Gaal.
Perhaps Falcao is to replace Hernandez and Rooney / RVP are used instead of Welbeck.
The bottom line is that Falcao, Rooney and RVP met the standard but Hernandez and Welbeck did not.
You say once more Louis van Gaal should not have selected RVP because he was unfit
But Louis van Gaal will only select a player who is fit enough to complete a specific amount of minutes and he and his fitness experts deemed RVP fit enough to be selected.
Why is your opinion superior to that of Louis van Gaal and his fitness expert?
And once more you miss the point I made, I told you to pay attention originally so instead of you then telling me to pay attention you should probably do it first. You are turning it into another point, my point was at a club going for top four a manager does not have one entire season to assess his squad but at a mid-table club he does. If you want to make a separate point that also is fine but you should not change the point you are addressing to suit your argument.
I wonder how much LVG has watched us over the years? He must have watched a fair bit of us to see how RVP was doing in the build up to the world cup? What else would he being doing in the months between international games? Maybe he even took a keener interest when he seen Moyes under pressure and knew the biggest job in England was coming up.
@JSMHE dont see why you keep responding to Empire's post. He has no interest in refuting anything you state with facts. Notice how in all his posts he didn't even bother looking up the stats himself but keeps going on about how he can't be too sure about your stats since he has no way of verifying them when there's a number of websites which provides stats. He talks about assumptions yet all he practically assumes in every single point he made
@dirkey is another one who suffers from confirmation bias. just look at his posts before welbeck's position was ever in question. How can someone use stats to make a player look prolific?
JSMHE made a point of comparing Welbeck to RVP at the same age, I merely asked him to provide a list of RVP's games and times he came on etc. Because that season Adebayor played 44 games and Henry was still at the club therefore it might not be a fair comparison.
I then told him to not use statistics if he can't control for variables because an unfair comparison will yield unreliable results.
And regarding assumption point this was specifically to Louis van Gaal's use of the term 'record', I said 'record' could mean anything and we are assuming it is only 'stats of goals', he could mean Welbeck didn't fit the profile for his striker position but Rooney and RVP did.
I would argue saying 'record' could mean anything is not an assumption.
And also when Moyes got sacked and he knew he would be the next manager. He might have got tapes on the club, he probably lives and breathes the sport.
I find it hard to believe he was unaware Welbeck was played on the flanks by Ferguson and he did not analyse Welbeck in depth.
Even if he didn't know he had Giggs advising him who has known Welbeck since he was a little kid, i'm pretty sure the research was done.
I wouldn't bother Empire. I realised after I replied that this is the same poster who rather maturely (I could practically hear the aher-aher-aher guffaw laughter to himself as he typed it) called me Dickey in one of his earlier replies. He's one of those people to whom you cannot criticise Welbeck.
Incidentally, stating Welbeck was a decent squad member, but not a starter, was the kind of horrific and vile attack that I used subject Welbeck to, that this gentleman objected to.
WTF??
what are you talking about? I've already said that i agree with LVG's decision to sell welbeck. Of course my reason for thinking so differs from yours. You think welbeck is not good enough for United, I think RVP and Rooney are just better(so is Falcao).
What a waste of my time to be honest.
I guess this is indeed try to fuse a water with oil. I'm stick with mine and you stick with yours. It's not like everyone will always have the same thought anyway.
What is going on here??
not you JSMHE, muffpiffgawd.
I never said he's not good enough for United. I said he wasn't good enough to be a starter, that he was a pretty good squad player.
What I am talking about, is I recalled your username. I wondered why, so I looked back. And yup, in a previous Welbeck thread, you disagreed with something I stated and were very clever in calling me "dickey" in your reply. I was impressed at the wit and intelligence.
Course, I'm sure you'll claim it was a typo.
No what I mean is how could you practically hear the aher-aher-aher guffaw laughter to himself as he typed it. Or called you Dickey. It's like you are trying to take a guess.
Oh well,
After I think about it. May be I shouldn't interrupt since I didn't know what kind of conversation you had been through
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