Daily Mail

But the kind of people who would happily vote for Sarah Palin as President aren't getting their news from informed sources. If they're not getting it from Fox, they're getting it from a trickle down effect of it's rhetoric and agenda. Things like Fox & The Mail aren't creating these mind sets admittedly, but they're entrenching them. Which is just as bad IMO.

Yeah, they're getting their news mostly from people they know. But that's the same for most people, left or right.

I think it's uncontroversial that the personality trait of authoritarianism is stronger on the right. So it may be that lefties are more likely to think critically and not just believe things just cos their uncle Chet told them and he served in Nam. On the other hand, I'm left-wing, and I generally just wait for MikeUpNorth to post and then adopt that as my opinion.
 
Yeah, they're getting their news mostly from people they know. But that's the same for most people, left or right.

I think it's uncontroversial that the personality trait of authoritarianism is stronger on the right. So it may be that lefties are more likely to think critically and not just believe things just cos their uncle Chet told them and he served in Nam. On the other hand, I'm left-wing, and I generally just wait for MikeUpNorth to post and then adopt that as my opinion.

I can't quite see that left-wingers would necessarily be more robust in their critical analyses and thought processes, just because they are left-wing. Some will be, whereas some will just vote for parties on the left because their parents did, or even because the left-wing candidate has hair and the right-wing one is bald. Although that makes you baldist rather than left- or right-wing.
 
I'm pretty sure you're still worried the Republicans have a strong chance at the next election? Or were until very recently. After the year they've had, the fact they have any chance at all has to surely, at least in part, be down to the kind of mindset promoted by Fox, and eaten up all over the shop.

I think Fox and their wingnuts audience feed off each other. Fox didn't invent the tea party, but it took them under its mantle, and went a long way towards legitimating them and giving them a voice. So yeah, I think it has an effect that's somewhat disproportionate to its actual viewing figures.

That said, I think talk radio has a bigger effect. Taken together, they probably do reach quite a lot of people.

But what do you want to do about it? People like sensationalist shit. If it was up to me I'd legislate some sort of journalistic standard and have anyone who fell short of it shot in the face, unless Mike told me that was wrong.

I can't quite see that left-wingers would necessarily be more robust in their critical analyses and thought processes, just because they are left-wing. Some will be, whereas some will just vote for parties on the left because their parents did, or even because the left-wing candidate has hair and the right-wing one is bald. Although that makes you baldist rather than left- or right-wing.

If you follow my link you'll find a short online book explaining why that's the correlation, based on years of experiments by psychologists.

And it's not because they're left-wing. It's that the same personality traits that tend people towards blind acceptance of authority also tend them towards conservative ideology.

Sure, many left-leaning people are also drones. But not nearly as many, probably.
 
But what do you want to do about it? People like sensationalist shit. If it was up to me I'd legislate some sort of journalistic standard and have anyone who fell short of it shot in the face, unless Mike told me that was wrong.

Well, that's the thing. I'm not sure what to do about it - bar railing against it in deeply appropriate places like the Current Events section of a niche football forum - but I don't think it "shouldn't be taken seriously" or brushed away (not that you are, but it's a standard riposte - "oh yeah, well that's just Fox/the Mail etc") They reach people, and have an effect, and I think misinformation should be challenged, so that the next generation of Uncle Chet's aren't spouting the same bullshit. Or at least are doing it with some evidence to back it up. There's no excuse anymore for not being informed. Or at least being misinformed to a lesser standard.
 
Here's a good one.

A high-flying businessman was hauled before the court for a tirade of religious abuse at a Muslim immigration official waiting to check his passport.

Anthony Holt, 65, had become wound up after reading an article in the Daily Mail about the ‘victimisation of Christianity’ on a flight into Manchester.

When he landed, the retired consultant refused to go through a desk where Sayima Mohammed was on duty.

He astonished witnesses by pointing at her and saying: “I don’t want to be seen by that. I don’t want to be seen by any Muslim in a position of authority. I want to be seen by someone who’s English. This is England. This is my country. I’m not into all this Islam.”

...He had been reading an article in the Mail in which the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey spoke of the ‘victimisation of Christians and Christianity’.

A couple of weeks later, the Mail published another article about the so-called 'victimisation of Christianity'.

It involves the case of Dr Richard Scott, who has been given a written warning by the General Medical Council.....

...The Mail's James Tozer writes:

A Christian doctor yesterday claimed he was a victim of religious discrimination after being disciplined for discussing his faith with a suicidal patient.

Richard Scott, 51, a former medical missionary, was reprimanded despite the 24-year-old complainant not even having to turn up to give evidence.


Lord Carey pops up in the Mail's article to say:

'I’m extremely saddened by this ruling. Many Christians will be asking whether they any longer have the freedom to express their faith.'

It seems clear - as with his comments on the BBC BC/AD case - that he has not made himself aware of all the evidence before issuing his ready-made comment.

Scott was accused of telling Patient A that he was:

not going to offer him any medical help or tests or advice

And:

you had something to offer Patient A which would cure him for good and that this was his one and only hope in recovery

And:

if Patient A did not turn towards Jesus and hand Jesus his suffering, then Patient A would suffer for the rest of his life

And:

his own religion could not offer him any protection and that no other religion in the world could offer Patient A what Jesus could offer him

And:

the devil haunts people who do not turn to Jesus and hand him their suffering

And Scott was:

told by Patient A that he had not come to a doctor to talk about religion and that he had come to the Practice because he was unwell and desperately needed help, or words to that effect.

The Committee ruled it was proved - or, in one case, proved in part - that these these statements had indeed been said...

...After quoting Dr Scott, the Christian Legal Centre, Lord Carey and the Christian Medical Fellowship, the Mail publishes a two-sentence quote from a GMC spokesman right at the end of the article.

http://tabloid-watch.blogspot.co.uk/


I think that's right. You can only try to put the other side out there. Plus, you can take the piss out of the Daily Mail or a thinly-disguised version of it.

Also with Murdoch now humbled, or pretending to be humbled, Dacre & Desmond are now the most evil men in the Universe, and need to be stopped.
 
If you follow my link you'll find a short online book explaining why that's the correlation, based on years of experiments by psychologists.

And it's not because they're left-wing. It's that the same personality traits that tend people towards blind acceptance of authority also tend them towards conservative ideology.

Sure, many left-leaning people are also drones. But not nearly as many, probably.

Sure, I wasn't dismissing the research about right-wing people - just questioning the possible non sequitur in relation to other people. :)
 
:confused: But if right-wingers are more prone to a lack of critical analysis of their own positions, it surely means that left-wingers are less so, by definition?

Only if it says that explicitly, based on research carried out on left-wing subjects. I haven't read your link yet, but I am basing my response on your explanation of its findings. I'm not trying to be provocative, but you can't just say that the opposite follows for people who aren't right-wing, surely?

There must be so many confounding variables ....
 
Am surprised people haven't noticed their latest bout of barely disguised casual racism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...arolina-governor-faces-ethics-probe-heat.html

Not sure why her ethnicity is the lead angle- wouldn't be if she was white am sure.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahom...2/Lone-Indian-face-saver-500-eatery-list.html

Why the feck are they so smug that Indian restaurants didn't fare so well?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-blamed-meltdown-froze-millions-accounts.html

They re-edited that and toned it down- it was originally screaming that an Indian had caused the outtage.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-2164784/RBS-says-outsourcing-IT-work-India-chaos.html

So it wasn't an Indian but this story obviously got far less prominence.

It is a pretty sustained, deliberate and unpleasant agenda but nothing we don't know I guess. But as Mockney says, this shit does influence some people...
 
Whether they understand it is another matter altogether, at least our cretins can grasp the material in the Mail! Your lot probably read the "I" anyway, as I said there isn't really a lefty version of the Mail (between broadsheet and tabloid). On reflection, for me to compare it to the Mirror is just as silly as you comparing it to the Guardian.

I don't care. Any excuse to slag off The Daily Mail works for me.
 
None of this is unique to the Daily Mail, it's just that the Mail exemplifies the issue with what people typically call the 'news'. Every single paper has some horse it likes to beat to death (which reminds me, I need to re-read Crime & Punishment) for whatever reason, and every paper has it's own caricature level biases.

This isn't the 19th century where papers like the Manchester Guardian were just purveyors of information because it was far too expensive to do anything else, now newspapers might as well be opinion pieces where the respective 'journalists' put some ideological spin to whatever is the 'trending' issue. Not to mention we are pretty much all hypocrites when it comes to which we think is the best paper because we let ourselves fall for the conformation bias - we love every paper/columnist who says what we agree with and hate any that says otherwise.

If you want information, not opinion, find something like www.newsnow.co.uk which gives you all sorts of sources so that you don't become some kind of ideological demagogue.
 
:confused: But if right-wingers are more prone to a lack of critical analysis of their own positions, it surely means that left-wingers are less so, by definition?

You are logically correct. Not that such things work on The Dail Mail's readership.
 
None of this is unique to the Daily Mail, it's just that the Mail exemplifies the issue with what people typically call the 'news'. Every single paper has some horse it likes to beat to death (which reminds me, I need to re-read Crime & Punishment) for whatever reason, and every paper has it's own caricature level biases.

This isn't the 19th century where papers like the Manchester Guardian were just purveyors of information because it was far too expensive to do anything else, now newspapers might as well be opinion pieces where the respective 'journalists' put some ideological spin to whatever is the 'trending' issue. Not to mention we are pretty much all hypocrites when it comes to which we think is the best paper because we let ourselves fall for the conformation bias - we love every paper/columnist who says what we agree with and hate any that says otherwise.

If you want information, not opinion, find something like www.newsnow.co.uk which gives you all sorts of sources so that you don't become some kind of ideological demagogue.

But the Daily Mail and it's ilk are far worse than say The Guardian or The Independent. Their biases are slight enough that you can filter out the real information most of the time. That isn't possible with The Daily Mail where it is safe to assume that it is all bullshit. Occasionally truth will slip through by mistake of course.
 
News sources mostly all have biases, but that doesn't mean all operate on the same level. Some might chose news stories that fit their agenda, but are truthful, whilst some twist or make up ones instead. Some promote agendas and nonsense far, far more than others.

As weird as it sounds, it's one of the most annoying modern phenomena to try and be too fair to everyone. Or more succinctly, give everything equal legitimacy when there's a debate. To borrow from Sorkin's latest Newsroom episode (which incidentally I don't think is nearly as good as his other stuff) "If a Republican tried to propose to congress that the Earth was flat, some outlets would run with 'Democrats and Republicans fail to agree on shape of Earth'".

There aren't always two sides to every story. Sometimes there's just truth & bullshit. And if someone, or something makes up or twists something into clearly erroneous and potentially influencing bullshit, it isn't excused just because it's possible some other equatable body might do a similar thing on a smaller scale. The Mail's readership is huge, and far more reaching than any comparable left wing paper/website. Trying to down play it's bollocks with "oh well everyone does it" is naive at best, and apologist at worst.

In the 19th Century people had valid reasons to not be well informed. Now, in the age of the internet, they don't.
 
I only buy one newspaper, The Observer on Sundays. Has a magazine that comes with it that usually has interesting pieces in it. Browse The Guardian website sometimes.

Most of the time I find out all the breaking news first on Redcafe as it's my home page. I then read through thread, see what side MJS is on and automatically support the other. It's a system that works well.
 
I find my news from Google news mainly. I get some stuff from The Guardian even though I only go there for the football news with the odd story from the Current Events forum here.
 
You have to either try really hard, or be really insular not to get news from everywhere. Opinion on news is different though. If you get both from the same place then you're probably quite open for manipulation.
 
I think it is fairly impossible to get an unbiased news coverage these days from any media outlook. All newspapers are either left or right. The Guardian is in my opinion the worst with the others very closely behind. The BBC is way to the left and all media coverage biased. So, how does one get the news? feck knows and quite honestly I don't give a shit.
 
The Guardian is the worst at what? Biased media coverage? That's surely bollocks bob. How can you possibly say it's worse than the Mail or Sun, or indeed, any tabloid? At least it covers news, rather than primarily human interest stories intended to rile it's demographics.

The top 5 stories in the Guardian this morning.

- Diamond cuts up rough as he quits Barclays
- Pakistan ends supply route dispute
- Cameron: Stringent border controls if Greece is forced to leave euro
- French police raid Sarkozy home
- Assad regrets downing of Turkish jet

The top 5 stories in the Sun this morning.

- A toddler sat on a balcony was filmed by a neighbour...inches from a 100ft drop to certain death.
- Katie Holmes says Tom Cruise was closer to Scientology leader than her
- Lanky footie star Peter Crouch is stretching out his talents — with a sideline as a chat show host.
- Daniel Sturridge is undergoing emergency treatment for suspected viral meningitis.
- Jodie Marsh says she would go gay again if she could find love.

The top 5 stories in the Daily Mail this morning.

- Sniper nests, razor wire and a punishment block called 'The Hole': Inside Scientology's strict Sea Org that made Kate fear for Suri
- Ousted Barclays boss makes damning claims that Bank of England and Labour ministers were involved in rigging interest rates
- Bob Diamond is a flawed genius who will have ministers quaking today
- The picture Ed Balls may want to forget: Shadow Chancellor under fresh scrutiny as snap emerges of him opening Barclays bank
- Katy Perry dazzles young fan in ballerina style dress


Yeah, the Guardian's the problem
 
The Guardian is the worst at what? Biased media coverage? That's surely bollocks bob. How can you possibly say it's worse than the Mail or Sun, or indeed, any tabloid? At least it covers news, rather than primarily human interest stories intended to rile it's demographics.

As your statistics on the readerships of various papers has already proven...old people are generally a bit thick.
 
The Guardian is the worst at what? Biased media coverage? That's surely bollocks bob. How can you possibly say it's worse than the Mail or Sun, or indeed, any tabloid? At least it covers news, rather than primarily human interest stories intended to rile it's demographics.

I think that ukbob is somewhat correct, The Guardian and The Telegraph are so ridiculously biased that you can more or less predict their stance on any given issue without even opening the paper. The Mail and Sun can't really called 'biased' because they don't necessarily have an ideological stance or particular worldview, they'll just mirror whatever prejudices middle England has at that time. Case in point the fact that The Sun will switch allegiances every single election. They are more ignorant than anything else.
 
You're making the same argument you made 12 posts ago that I didn't agree with. Blaming the low circulated broadsheets for being biased in their factual news reporting, but excusing the high selling tabloids for their endless bullshit agenda distorting nonsense is part of the problem. I do of course agree that people will favour their own political bent in reporting, naturally, but I'd be far less concerned about it if everyone on the right read the Telegraph rather than the Mail & Express.

Anyone claiming the Guardian or the Telegraph are the worst at anything is talking absolute bollocks.
 
Fwiw, the top 5 stories in the Telegraph this morning.

- The Bank of England told us to do it, claims ousted Barclays boss.
- Property developer arrested over shooting of solicitor
- David Cameron: I'll protect UK from Greek influx
- Moors murderer Ian Brady in hospital after seizure
- 'The Higgs boson has been found – probably/ Two pilots missing after RAF Tornados crash in fog

Personally I think this is less diverse and worldly than the Guardian's, and overwhelmingly aimed at the well off and British, but at least it's actually news.

The Guardian gets targeted for this kind of "it's as bad as" rhetoric because it's the easiest target for both right wingers trying to hit back at Mail/Express/Sun/Telegraph jibes, and people trying to be "fair" because it's the most prominent left leaning outlet. The fact of the matter is it's circulation is 100k lower than that of the Financial Times, and even if doubled wouldn't match that of the Daily Star. So equating it's bias as of equal importance, influence or damage as ANY of the aforementioned outlets is complete and utter rubbish.

I don't read the Guardian fwiw. But I'd be happier to be assumed or labelled a Guardian reader than I would almost any other newspaper on the market in Britain today.
 
You're making the same argument you made 12 posts ago that I didn't agree with. Blaming the low circulated broadsheets for being biased in their factual news reporting, but excusing the high selling tabloids for their endless bullshit agenda distorting nonsense is part of the problem. I do of course agree that people will favour their own political bent in reporting, naturally, but I'd be far less concerned about it if everyone on the right read the Torygraph rather than the Mail & Express.

Anyone claiming the Guardian or the Telegraph are the worst at anything is talking absolute bollocks.

I wasn't excusing them. I guess I was playing semantics a little by saying that the tabloids were more ignorant than biased. You said it above, The Guardian/Telegraph are biased, but at least they attempt to report the news; whereas tabloids are 'primarily [full of] human interest stories intended to rile it's demographics.' That's no different to what was in the post above yours.

There is a very good reason why tabloids sell more than the broadsheets: they generally give people what they want. Sure, the Mail and the Express are racist, homophobic scaremongering machines, but a substantial section of the British population is sympathetic to those views, both left and right; hence the high sales figures.
 
I think it is fairly impossible to get an unbiased news coverage these days from any media outlook. All newspapers are either left or right. The Guardian is in my opinion the worst with the others very closely behind. The BBC is way to the left and all media coverage biased. So, how does one get the news? feck knows and quite honestly I don't give a shit.

The Guardian is only very mildly to the left of center just as the modern day Labor party is only very mildly left wing. The Daily Mail is very right wing in a middle class suburban way (Blacks are OK as long as they are medical specialists and their sons don't date your daughter) but they will happily bandwagon anything if there is a headline in it irrespective of politics. The BBC is again very middle of the road barring issues to do with the existence and functioning of the BBC where self interest and continued public funding go hand in hand.

Of course in US terms they are all to the left of Lenin. But US politics are mental even compared to the insanity that is UK (or Australian) politics.
 
Mockney. read what I am saying. I don't give a shit at the content of a medias coverage. They are ALL biased towards their beliefs one way or the other. What you read is mostly about your own political views. its the same as voting. I mean how many people will vote for what is best for the country. not many. Most votes will come from their political upbringings. not many people will ever change their political views and vote for a party that will benefit the country.
 
Mockney. read what I am saying. I don't give a shit at the content of a medias coverage. They are ALL biased towards their beliefs one way or the other. What you read is mostly about your own political views. its the same as voting. I mean how many people will vote for what is best for the country. not many. Most votes will come from their political upbringings. not many people will ever change their political views and vote for a party that will benefit the country.

Surely people have different views about what is best for the country. I thought that was the whole point.
 
Surely people have different views about what is best for the country. I thought that was the whole point.

Yes that's true. I assume though that in this context, ukbob was suggesting that people don't often vote for something which they know will have a detrimental effect on their own personal circumstances, such as voting for high taxes for high earners when you are a high earner yourself. But then again, it's back to what you say - 'the good of the country' is not an absolute concept and people see it differently. Committed voters from any party will be able to convince themselves that their party is for the common good and other parties are not.
 
Mockney. read what I am saying. I don't give a shit at the content of a medias coverage. They are ALL biased towards their beliefs one way or the other. What you read is mostly about your own political views. its the same as voting. I mean how many people will vote for what is best for the country. not many. Most votes will come from their political upbringings. not many people will ever change their political views and vote for a party that will benefit the country.

I still don't see what the Guardian is the worst at though bob? Which is what you said. I agree that a lot of people vote in their self interest, but if that was overwhelmingly the case then voting patterns would never change. People vote on a number of issues, what will benefit them being only one, even if a biggie. I'm sure the BNP's manifesto would benefit a large number of white British people, but they're not voted for for a mich wider range of issues. Namely their entire ideology.

Moreover the press, and news reporting in general play a huge role in highlighting what policies from which parties will be detrimental or beneficial to whom, since most people don't read government legislation, party manifestos or the ilk direct from the source. Due to this, papers with the highest circulation have the greatest influence on the public voting.

The tabloids are by far the worst at cherry picking what it's readership will be disposed to, and ignoring everything else. Whereas the broadsheets report the news primarily, and their own ideological bent in a far less intrusive way.

Not to mention that people with a greater knowledge and interest of the World at large are less likely to vote exclusively for their own benefit than people who read nothing but domestic or parochial news.

Again, to this end, I cannot possibly see how the Guardian can be the worst at anything. If your political bent is to the right, then you're obviously going to see any left wing bent as more bias than yours (and vice versa) and since the Guardian is the most famous example of a left leaning newspaper, it becomes short hand for that belief. But then that completely ignores that it's virtually the only prominent left leaning paper sold to a respectable level in Britain (in a sea of right leaning, or reactionary ones) it's incredibly low circulation in comparison to the right leaning brand leaders (and thus it's potentially damaging sphere of influence) and it's merit as a much better news source (regardless of bias) compared to them.

At least those who read it might accidentally get a greater sense of perspective of their problems in the grand scheme of world affairs, as opposed to people fed nothing but a drip drip of immigration scare stories and pictures of women with celulite.

Fwiw, I've probably spent the bulk of my paper reading life reading The Times. I'm not amazingly sure why though.


I wasn't excusing them. I guess I was playing semantics a little by saying that the tabloids were more ignorant than biased. You said it above, The Guardian/Telegraph are biased, but at least they attempt to report the news; whereas tabloids are 'primarily [full of] human interest stories intended to rile it's demographics.' That's no different to what was in the post above yours.

There is a very good reason why tabloids sell more than the broadsheets: they generally give people what they want. Sure, the Mail and the Express are racist, homophobic scaremongering machines, but a substantial section of the British population is sympathetic to those views, both left and right; hence the high sales figures.

Ok. But I don't subscribe to the idea that they're just giving people what they want. There's certainly a degree of it (especially in the gossip bits) but there's also a large chicken and egg situation where they're giving the people what they're telling the people they want. No one wants everything they eat to give them cancer, or to fear for their jobs, but after years of priming them with scare stories, they help to create a prejudice, which they then feed.

There's a responsibility IMO for people with the ear of the populace to use it responsibly. With great power etc etc.
 
There was an article in the Daily Mail today about how hair dye's changed women's lives more than feminism.

That pretty much sums the Mail up.
 
I'd just like to add that this is a great debate and I'm enjoying the last few pages immensely.

Now, this is what it is all about, expressing your views and having them sensibly debated. Unfortunately I cannot defend either media coverage as I only read the newspapers now and again so do not have a lengthy opinion as to who is the better.
Again I am neither left or right but base my judgement and political views on what I consider best.
I have to say that when I was younger my views were very left wing, this probably came about by working a lot in communist run countries.