Cycling 2015 thread.

darioterios said:
so definitely he should stay?
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He's 30, and maybe won't get to lead Sky in the other GT'S especially as he wasn't able to lead the team well enough in the Giro. Plus runoured to be coming in are Mikel Landa and Kwiakowski who are both incredible riders. As loyal as he has been to SKY, the team is going to be even stronger next year. He's supposedly going to BMC - He'll have more opportunity there and will do well I'm sure.
 
RedFish said:
He's 30, and maybe won't get to lead Sky in the other GT'S especially as he wasn't able to lead the team well enough in the Giro. Plus runoured to be coming in are Mikel Landa and Kwiakowski who are both incredible riders. As loyal as he has been to SKY, the team is going to be even stronger next year. He's supposedly going to BMC - He'll have more opportunity there and will do well I'm sure.
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I just don't think he'll be a real leading guy for any team
 
Classical Mechanic said:
So the 23rd fastest time ever. The really interesting thing is that the rest of the top 25 happened in the notorious doping year that was punctuated as being the era of Lance Armstrong.

Does improvement in technology with the bikes mean that you would expect gradual improvement over the years anyway?

Is his time that suspicious in isolation?
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The whole of Team Sky are extremely suspicious. Froome wasn't really looking like anything special before SKY came around and Wiggins wasn't even a climber, he was just a pure TT specialist! The thought of him ever winning the tour would have been completely laughed off a few years ago. In his defence he did massively change his body to gear up for climbing and he looked every bit the part of a climber afterwards. Cycling is probably the strictest sport around in regards to drug testing and monitoring too these days so whatever they are doing is probably on the cutting edge. Either that or they've put money in the right pockets.

Just had a browse at a few cycling forums and they are in complete meltdown over the "UK Postal" team.

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RedFish said:
Come again??? What are your sources - The Sunday Sport? Such bullshit that it hardly warrants a response.
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http://www.outsideonline.com/1920106/analysing-froomes-performance

There's the top 10. Armstrong and Ullrich have both admitted to doping. Vinokourov and Basso both served doping bans. Zubeldia rode for Armstrong at Astana and RadioShack and was a part of the Euskaltel team that had multiple doping offences. Euskaltel also had Laiseka on their books, but he's never been busted. The odds on him being clean are rather slim, however, considering he rode in the golden era of EPO use.

Play the ball not the man next time you try to dismiss arguments. Also, if you had any sort of cycling knowledge you'd know how ridiculous it is that Geraint Thomas can compete in both the cobbled classics and the mountains within the same year.
 
Red Stone said:
http://www.outsideonline.com/1920106/analysing-froomes-performance

There's the top 10. Armstrong and Ullrich have both admitted to doping. Vinokourov and Basso both served doping bans. Zubeldia rode for Armstrong at Astana and RadioShack and was a part of the Euskaltel team that had multiple doping offences. Euskaltel also had Laiseka on their books, but he's never been busted. The odds on him being clean are rather slim, however, considering he rode in the golden era of EPO use.

Play the ball not the man next time you try to dismiss arguments. Also, if you had any sort of cycling knowledge you'd know how ridiculous it is that Geraint Thomas can compete in both the cobbled classics and the mountains within the same year.
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Oh okey dokey. Geraint Thomas is officially on drugs. Next!
 
RedFish said:
Come again??? What are your sources - The Sunday Sport? Such bullshit that it hardly warrants a response.
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Right. I'm two names out then. Laiseka (fastest up AX3) and Zubeldia (fifth) haven't been caught doping. Though the man who heads up that mountain faster than Armstrong did in 2001 doesn't exactly fill one with clean optimism.

The rest of the riders on that top ten list have either admitted to or have been caught doping (or intending to in the case of Basso) and received punishment as a result.

Froome's 2013 time up that mountain is the only time outside of the doping era. All others were timed between 2001 and 2005. Take from that what you will.
 
Red Stone said:
http://www.outsideonline.com/1920106/analysing-froomes-performance

There's the top 10. Armstrong and Ullrich have both admitted to doping. Vinokourov and Basso both served doping bans. Zubeldia rode for Armstrong at Astana and RadioShack and was a part of the Euskaltel team that had multiple doping offences. Euskaltel also had Laiseka on their books, but he's never been busted. The odds on him being clean are rather slim, however, considering he rode in the golden era of EPO use.

Play the ball not the man next time you try to dismiss arguments. Also, if you had any sort of cycling knowledge you'd know how ridiculous it is that Geraint Thomas can compete in both the cobbled classics and the mountains within the same year.
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It's completely outrageous. Geraint might be the biggest red flag on the entire team. Just look at his build compared to the natural climbers he's mixing it up with. Not possible.
 
Kag said:
Right. I'm two names out then. Laiseka (fastest up AX3) and Zubeldia (fifth) haven't been caught doping. Though the man who heads up that mountain faster than Armstrong did in 2001 doesn't exactly fill one with clean optimism.

The rest of the riders on that top ten list have either admitted to or have been caught doping (or intending to in the case of Basso) and received punished as a result.

Froome's 2013 time up that mountain is the only time outside of the doping era. All other as we're timed between 2001 and 2005. Take from that what you will.
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I will apologise for the aggressive nature of my post. Coming on here after a fabulous display in the mountains by Froome and some homegrown talent in GT, to be faced with baseless accusations is hugely frustrating. Why watch the sport at all if you can't believe any 'outstanding' performances. Cycling in the GT's is all about the hurt, the heroics, the failures, the misery, the romance., the pure effort.......To succeed in a ultra competitive peleton- you will be special...
 
Stretch said:
I'm not accusing Sky and Froome of anything but that was so reminiscent of those Armstrong and US Postal attacks where he would obliterate the field. Is he really that much better than everyone else? I mean Sky's domestiques are keeping up if not beating the other team leaders. What are they doing different that everyone else is not?
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Just consider that before Froome joined SKY he was a youngish journeyman in the Continental tour (equivalent of the Championship) and then 2 years later out of nowhere he was dominating the climbs in the Tour. People can come to their own conclusions, but lets just say it's highly unusual.
 
justboy68 said:
Just consider that before Froome joined SKY he was a youngish journeyman in the Continental tour (equivalent of the Championship) and then 2 years later out of nowhere he was dominating the climbs in the Tour. People can come to their own conclusions, but lets just say it's highly unusual.
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They're buying the best riders available out there. With Landa and Kwiakowski rumoured to be coming in next year, they will only be stronger. Specifically regarding Froome, he is 'highly unusual' and therefore quite special. I guess if you can't enjoy it for what it is, then it's a shame. I don't think his performances are completely unbelievable though. I mean what about Quintana finishing 1 minute behind - was his ride not special? Why is he not being targeted? What about Aru or Tony Martin? How about Sagan - surely he's on drugs too..
 
Kag said:
Right. I'm two names out then. Laiseka (fastest up AX3) and Zubeldia (fifth) haven't been caught doping. Though the man who heads up that mountain faster than Armstrong did in 2001 doesn't exactly fill one with clean optimism.

The rest of the riders on that top ten list have either admitted to or have been caught doping (or intending to in the case of Basso) and received punishment as a result.

Froome's 2013 time up that mountain is the only time outside of the doping era. All others were timed between 2001 and 2005. Take from that what you will.
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That isn't true. I looked them up before and the times range from 94 to 09. Surely bike technology would see some increase anyway? Of course I am suspicious about the team performance, how can you not be all things considered.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
That isn't true. I looked them up before and the times range from 94 to 09. Surely bike technology would see some increase anyway? Of course I am suspicious about the team performance, how can you not be all things considered.
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Yes it is. I'm referring to the AX3. The link is above.
 
RedFish said:
I will apologise for the aggressive nature of my post. Coming on here after a fabulous display in the mountains by Froome and some homegrown talent in GT, to be faced with baseless accusations is hugely frustrating. Why watch the sport at all if you can't believe any 'outstanding' performances. Cycling in the GT's is all about the hurt, the heroics, the failures, the misery, the romance., the pure effort.......To succeed in a ultra competitive peleton- you will be special...
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It's fine. I'm no cycling enthusiast, I'll say that now. I watch parts of the GT's but that's about it. Therefore I won't be as frustrated with these accusations the way that you are.

Personally, I generally take an attitude to sport, rightly or wrongly, that the top guys will be the top guys irrespective. I'm a big tennis fan and people have been calling out the top guys for years. It would disappointing to know that any of them doped, however, it wouldn't diminish their status at the top of the game, for me at least. Talent is talent.

So whether or not I believe these performances or not, I suppose that, to a degree, I can still enjoy them in spite of scepticism. Usain Bolt could very well be a doper. The Jamaican doping system hasn't exactly been flawless in the past. His achievements are genuinely outrageous. So I meet his times with relative scepticism, but at the same time think watching him run is as exciting as anything you'll see in world sport. I enjoy that for what it is.
 
It's not just Froome doing the super transformations, though. Porte, Thomas and Kennaugh have all shown remarkable climbing prowess since joining Sky. Wiggins also went into warp drive compared to his previous level in 2009 while riding for Garmin.

Those sort of transformations don't just happen in pro cycling. If it's purely down to revolutionary sports science, Sky are doing things that are decades ahead of our time. It just seems incredibly unlikely.

Hate to sound like Benitez, but...
A. Froome was the worst rider in the Sky team before the autumn of 2011 - Fact.
Graph by Brailsford mapping the level of performance and age of every rider in the team You'll notice CF with the lowest level of performance score.

B. Froome only made the Vuelta squad that year because Lars Petter Nordhaug got sick - Fact.
"'Chris, you're going to the Vuelta. Lars Petter has gotten ill. They're not going to take a chance with him so they're taking you instead." - quote, p. 208 of Froome's own autobiography.

C. Froome's contract was expiring that year and Sky weren't willing to meet his wage demands and were offering a domestique salary - Fact.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/27563999 - ""I wanted a contract that reflected being a leader, rather than a domestique," said the Kenyan-born Brit."

D. Froome has delivered climbing times only bettered by doped riders from the EPO era on his three big mountain stage wins in the Tour - Fact.
1. Third all-time on Ax-3-Domaines, as already proven.
2. Ventoux times. Only Moncoutie without previous history, and he rode the stage fresh as an ITT, whereas Froome went through 220km of hard racing on the flats before the ascent.
1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan Vaughters 22.70 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
4. 2004: 56:54 Oscar Sevilla 22.67 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
5. 1999: 57:33 Alexander Vinokourov 22.42 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
6. 1994: 57:34 Marco Pantani 22.41 km/h - Proven doper
7. 1999: 57:34 Wladimir Belli 22.41 km/h - Rode for Festina in 1998, implicated in other cases, stage ridden as individual time trial
8. 2004: 57:39 Juan Miguel Mercado 22.38 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
9. 1999: 57:42 Joseba Beloki 22.36 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006
10. 2004: 57:49 Lance Armstrong 22.31 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
11. 1999: 57:52 Lance Armstrong 22.29 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
12. 2004: 58:14 Inigo Landaluze 22.15 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
13. 1999: 58:15 Kevin Livingston 22.15 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
14. 1999: 58:31 David Moncoutie 22.05 km/h - Stage ridden as individual time trial
15. 2004: 58:35 José Enrique Gutierrez 22.02 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006, ridden as individual time trial
16. 2009: 58:45 Andy Schleck 21.96 km/h - Suspected doper. Brother and training partner Frank Schleck is a proven doper
17. 2009: 58:45 Alberto Contador 21.96 km/h - Proven doper
18. 2009: 58:48 Lance Armstrong 21.94 km/h - Proven doper
19. 2009: 58:50 Fränk Schleck 21.93 km/h - Proven doper
20. 1999: 58:51 Unai Osa 21.92 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006
21. 2009: 58:53 Roman Kreuziger 21.91 km/h - Suspected doper, suspicious blood values case went to CAS recently
22. 2002: 59:00 Lance Armstrong 21.86 km/h - Proven doper
22. 2013: 59:00 Chris Froome 21.86 km/h
3. Pierre St. Martin Froome rode more than 1km more of the climb so the times are off, but his average speed creams every other rider on that list, most of whom are proven dopers.

E. Sky are associated with or have been associated with former dopers (Barry, Rogers, Knaven, Julich) and doping doctors (Geert Leinders).



None of this is proof, but I'm having a hard time trusting Sky with the way they're riding and with all th dirt you can dig up. I've followed cycling for 15 years and the history of the sport is bleak. Usually when a rider goes mercurial like Froome has, the explanation is painfully simple.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
That isn't true. I looked them up before and the times range from 94 to 09. Surely bike technology would see some increase anyway? Of course I am suspicious about the team performance, how can you not be all things considered.
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Bike technology will be a tiny factor on a climb, but almost negligible. Most of the technology is aerodynamics, which don't come into play at the relatively low speeds the riders climb at, and weight reduction, which isn't a factor since UCI have set a minimum weight for all bikes (6,8kgs if my memory serves me correctly) and bikes have been as close to the minimum since it came into play in 2000, which is before all the top 10 climbs on the link I provided earlier occurred.

Then there are differences to gearing and such, but the improvements will hardly make a difference to climbing times. Climbing is very simple mathematics. It's producing as much power per unit of mass as possible, so the biggest factor on the equipment side is the bike weight, which has stayed constant.
 
Froome and the rest of Sky are on dope, no question anymore. You can't perform in the Flemish races and make top 10 in a mountain stage in the TdF like Thomas did today. Kennaugh as well is very suspiscious. If they would get found out, cycling is dead or they should legalize some shit. I've been following all of this since I was a toddler and this is US Postal all over again. No way Froome does things like this legally, not in a million years.

On a totally different note, still hoping for Quintana, Contador or Nibali to get closer to Froome but it isn't going to happen. Froome doesn't need to attack anymore and will follow everyone if they do. TJ will have his bad day and lose 8' like he always does and the rest of the pack like Gallopin and Valverde aren't strong enough. With so less TT kilometers, they made this tour perfectlu for guys like Quintana but it wasn't meant to be. This tour is over. And it's only a matter of time before Sky gets found out.
 
RedFish said:
They're buying the best riders available out there. With Landa and Kwiakowski rumoured to be coming in next year, they will only be stronger. Specifically regarding Froome, he is 'highly unusual' and therefore quite special. I guess if you can't enjoy it for what it is, then it's a shame. I don't think his performances are completely unbelievable though. I mean what about Quintana finishing 1 minute behind - was his ride not special? Why is he not being targeted? What about Aru or Tony Martin? How about Sagan - surely he's on drugs too..
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That sounds awfully familiar. By the way a 1 minute difference up the climb is considerable, not to mention Quintana has always been a great climbing prospect whereas Froome was a complete nobody before magically becoming Pantani on crack (or ermm... just Pantani). Moreover Quintana and the Movistar guys are unlikely to be clean either, however not all marginal gains are created equal shall we say. I'm not sure guys like Tony Martin and Peter Sagan are exactly relevant to this debate but no one popping can surprise me anymore.

No offence but I get the impression you are someone who hasn't been through this whole ordeal before. I'd wager it to be nigh on impossible to come out unscathed if you followed the sport through the Armstrong years. Enjoy it while you can.
 
Putting a minute into Quintana in the 20 minutes after the attack requires a difference in power/mass that is astronomical when you consider the level these guys are riding at. Quintana is amongst the top two climbers in the world, alongside Froome. He was riding at the limit today, and Froome still managed to wring out more than 2,5% more power/mass over the duration of the climb. Seeing as they stuck together for the first half of the climb, the difference from the attack and onwards is even more significant. It might seem like very little, but it's a profound difference when it comes to the world elite in sports.

Numbers are plucked from cycling nerd @ammattipyoraily on Twitter, by the way.
 
Red Stone said:
It's not just Froome doing the super transformations, though. Porte, Thomas and Kennaugh have all shown remarkable climbing prowess since joining Sky. Wiggins also went into warp drive compared to his previous level in 2009 while riding for Garmin.

Those sort of transformations don't just happen in pro cycling. If it's purely down to revolutionary sports science, Sky are doing things that are decades ahead of our time. It just seems incredibly unlikely.

Hate to sound like Benitez, but...
A. Froome was the worst rider in the Sky team before the autumn of 2011 - Fact.
Graph by Brailsford mapping the level of performance and age of every rider in the team You'll notice CF with the lowest level of performance score.

B. Froome only made the Vuelta squad that year because Lars Petter Nordhaug got sick - Fact.
"'Chris, you're going to the Vuelta. Lars Petter has gotten ill. They're not going to take a chance with him so they're taking you instead." - quote, p. 208 of Froome's own autobiography.

C. Froome's contract was expiring that year and Sky weren't willing to meet his wage demands and were offering a domestique salary - Fact.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cycling/27563999 - ""I wanted a contract that reflected being a leader, rather than a domestique," said the Kenyan-born Brit."

D. Froome has delivered climbing times only bettered by doped riders from the EPO era on his three big mountain stage wins in the Tour - Fact.
1. Third all-time on Ax-3-Domaines, as already proven.
2. Ventoux times. Only Moncoutie without previous history, and he rode the stage fresh as an ITT, whereas Froome went through 220km of hard racing on the flats before the ascent.
1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan Vaughters 22.70 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
4. 2004: 56:54 Oscar Sevilla 22.67 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
5. 1999: 57:33 Alexander Vinokourov 22.42 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
6. 1994: 57:34 Marco Pantani 22.41 km/h - Proven doper
7. 1999: 57:34 Wladimir Belli 22.41 km/h - Rode for Festina in 1998, implicated in other cases, stage ridden as individual time trial
8. 2004: 57:39 Juan Miguel Mercado 22.38 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
9. 1999: 57:42 Joseba Beloki 22.36 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006
10. 2004: 57:49 Lance Armstrong 22.31 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
11. 1999: 57:52 Lance Armstrong 22.29 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
12. 2004: 58:14 Inigo Landaluze 22.15 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
13. 1999: 58:15 Kevin Livingston 22.15 km/h - Proven doper, stage ridden as individual time trial
14. 1999: 58:31 David Moncoutie 22.05 km/h - Stage ridden as individual time trial
15. 2004: 58:35 José Enrique Gutierrez 22.02 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006, ridden as individual time trial
16. 2009: 58:45 Andy Schleck 21.96 km/h - Suspected doper. Brother and training partner Frank Schleck is a proven doper
17. 2009: 58:45 Alberto Contador 21.96 km/h - Proven doper
18. 2009: 58:48 Lance Armstrong 21.94 km/h - Proven doper
19. 2009: 58:50 Fränk Schleck 21.93 km/h - Proven doper
20. 1999: 58:51 Unai Osa 21.92 km/h - Implicated in Operación Puerto in 2006
21. 2009: 58:53 Roman Kreuziger 21.91 km/h - Suspected doper, suspicious blood values case went to CAS recently
22. 2002: 59:00 Lance Armstrong 21.86 km/h - Proven doper
22. 2013: 59:00 Chris Froome 21.86 km/h
3. Pierre St. Martin Froome rode more than 1km more of the climb so the times are off, but his average speed creams every other rider on that list, most of whom are proven dopers.

E. Sky are associated with or have been associated with former dopers (Barry, Rogers, Knaven, Julich) and doping doctors (Geert Leinders).



None of this is proof, but I'm having a hard time trusting Sky with the way they're riding and with all th dirt you can dig up. I've followed cycling for 15 years and the history of the sport is bleak. Usually when a rider goes mercurial like Froome has, the explanation is painfully simple.
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Great post and pretty much sums all the stuff my local cycling community is alluding too, especially those themselves who use power meters for their amateur races. Also a lot pointing out the hypocrisy of Brits blindly celebrating the Sky "team effort" yesterday......also crushed and hounded Astana for similar efforts at the Vuelta.
 
Brilliant from GT. I wish there was a clinic subsection like in CN for the unbelievers. I can feel the backlash already, and the stage hasn't even finished.
 
So Geraint Thomas can chase down attacks from Nairo Quintana. I may just give up watching.
 
Yeah, there's just no way Thomas is riding on bread and water. It's absolutely unheard of (outside of Sky, anyways...) that a former track rider and classics/sprint specialist suddenly finds his climbing legs to the extent that he has at the tender age of 29. Stage race specialists don't suddenly pop out of the woodwork almost 10 years into their pro careers unless there's something seriously fishy going on.

History is repeating itself. This is Indurain/Riis/Armstrong all over again. Big fat powerful riders suddenly bouncing up the mountains with the skinny midgets. No-one who has followed cycling for more than five years is buying this?
 
Mark_GrumpyLion said:
He fecked up again I read? Missed the finale, but I saw an article where he stated that he went to early.
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Hmmm, I thought he timed it perfectly....Was in Van Avermaet's slipstream and went for the kill, but couldn't get past on the final metres and lunge to the line. Van Avarmaet was just too powerful and held him off....
 
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