Yes, and Pele & Maradona were known for their Maldini-like defensive skills.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Yes, and Pele & Maradona were known for their Maldini-like defensive skills.
The game is on easy mode for Cristiano
Just too good. Best player in the world, mate.
Just too good. Best player in the world, mate.
How was his overall play yesterday?
Average to poor.
Absolutely horrible. Wouldn't trust himself in possession at any point. He got it and passed it right back. Managed to stay focused till the 80th minute where he set up a decent goal for his first and was clinical as usual for his second.
Almeira? Just watched highlights. Yeah he was shit but still nicked two late on. Sweet move for the third tho and decent peno save from Iker.
Dumbstar is a scouser too, you nutter.Pelé was known for being a very complete player and did contribute a hell of a lot more defensively than these two, as did the likes of Cruyff and Di Stéfano. I do agree with your point in general though, that wasn't Maradona's game and the fact he's considered the greatest by many shows that it's not particularly important for an attacking player in the grand scheme of things. Plus Eusébio was a world beater...
Did someone just say Eusebio wasn't a world-beater? FFS What's wrong with football fans these days.
What's wrong with football fans these days.There is no point getting involved in the Ronaldo defensive debate. Whether or not he "can" defend is kind of a moot point as the team is set up so he doesn't "have to" defend.
Real don't want him wasting his energy on the defensive side of the game as he is so potent in attack. Im actually staggered by those who use this as a stick to beat him with. He has scored 25 la liga goals in 14 games!! We should be admiring the amazing number of positives in his game.
What's next? "De Gea is good but he won't be great until he starts scoring......"
Real don't want him wasting his energy on the defensive side of the game as he is so potent in attack. Im actually staggered by those who use this as a stick to beat him with. He has scored 25 la liga goals in 14 games!! We should be admiring the amazing number of positives in his game.
What's next? "De Gea is good but he won't be great until he starts scoring......"
Jealousy makes people talk nonsense
But but but, half of his goals are penalties, so it isn't that impressive!
It's not necessary for him to defend at all. But being on the periphery of games and often his contribution being summed up by his name on the scoresheet (or an assist), does say something about him as a player. I'm not sure why anyone would deny this. The only reason it's repeated many times is because it's a facet that is constantly denied or defended. I'm not sure why though. He can be and is brilliant inspite of that weakness.
Half a players' goals being penalties would definitely make a players goal tally less impressive. Thankfully, it's not the case in Ronaldo's case and he's definitely an incredible goalscorer.
I don't like him centrally, it seems they've converted from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2.
I was messing, yes he is an incredible goalscorer regardless of the penalty stats.
Of course
It's what gave the team the necessary balance to actually beat the best teams in the world. Ronaldo on the wing in Mourinho's Real side was always a bit of a flaw that caused problems in defense, against the top teams in the world arguably caused more problems than his goals could make up for. The free roaming central role Ronaldo is playing at the moment is way easier to cover for defensively and it makes the team look almost unstoppable. They already defended in a 442 last season with Di Maria taking over the defensive duties on the left wing. Ronaldo is more involved in the overall play (I'm not surprised that he gets more assists now than he did before) and even more difficult to defend in that central role. Both Ancelotti and Ronaldo deserve a lot of credit for this development, it's highly impressive in a tactical sense and in my opinion Ronaldo also individually made another step forward, as crazy as it sounds.
That’s interesting view. It really worked for them when I think about it, especially considering how Isco developed defensive side of his game in recent months. I always took him as a final third player, but there’s so much more in him.
Ronaldo looked much better in overall contribution on the left side but you make a valid point about covering for him. For me he looks clumsy at times in the middle but he does score a lot so fair play to him.
He's currently on course to 67-68 goals in the league alone. I think that he will probably slow down a bit and suffer injuries as well. Stll, 50-55 goals seems to be a realistic target. IF he manages to beat Messi's record in the league AND IF he helps Madrid to retain the CL title, the notion that Messi is a superior footballer will be seriously questioned. Messi's Barca could not win back to back CL titles, even though it was one of the best teams ever, if not the best. Two big IFs though. It's gonna be fun to watch him chasing Messi's records.
Contributing defensively in the eras of Pele/Di Stefano is very different than modern day football. Teams are far better organised these days, players are fitter and the game is much faster. Ronaldo is capable of putting in a defensive role wide right in a 4-4-2. He did it many times at United. But, any coach who has the current version of Messi or Ronaldo and puts them in a role that has any significant level of defensive focus is an idiot.
It's possible that one day the notion that Messi is superior will have to be questioned but it won't be because of those records being broken. The difference between them isn't just about goals...
They at least were dominant in Europe and in their own league at the same time. In all four of Real's CL wins they did feck all in the league (finishing 4th, 5th, 3rd and 3rd). Obviously becoming the first team to retain the CL title would be a brilliant achievement, but as long as they can't dominate their own league at the same time, it's somewhat tainted. If they do the double this season, no one will care. But winning two CL titles in a row without a league title before or during those wins would at least in my book make it a questionable achievement.
The second goal yesterday showed his quality as a finisher. Lethal.
By the way, criticizing Ronaldo for the "lack of defensive skills" is silly imo. He's an attacker, I don't need a player with good defensive skills playing at his position, I need a player who can score goals, and I think Ronaldo is doing ok at that.
By the way, criticizing Ronaldo for the "lack of defensive skills" is silly imo. He's an attacker, I don't need a player with good defensive skills playing at his position, I need a player who can score goals, and I think Ronaldo is doing ok at that.
I'm not really sure what the "modern game" argument has to do with it. Methods of defending has changed but the core concept is still the same - regaining possession from the opposition by putting pressure on the man on the ball and covering the team-mates he could pass to. Pele did a lot more of that than these two. Cruyff and Di Stefano did far more of that than these two. Perhaps if they were given no defensive responsibilities whatsoever they would have scored more goals, set more individual records and won more individual awards (but not necessarily to the benefit of their team...).
By the way the "only an idiot would make him defend" argument was put forward for Robben just under 10 years ago, and it turns out that's not remotely true. He played a pivotal role in what I believe is the best team in the last two decades by being more selfless and contributing an awful lot defensively, and as a result he had perhaps the best season of his career (personally and professionally). Without everyone contributing in all facets of play that Bayern team couldn't have been as dominant in all competitions and couldn't have destroyed Barcelona in that fashion. There simply wasn't any room for people going for individual glory. So if Ronaldo and Messi are unable to play in that way then it's a deficiency on their part that Cruyff, Di Stefano and co didn't have. That said I don't think it's true of Messi given his role in 08/09.
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I reckon it should be questioned if he outperforms Messi not if he scores around the same amount of goals or something like that.
Strongly disagree that Bayern were the best team of the last two decades.
Messi used to chase and harry like crazy earlier. Either way it is a deficiency if a player can't offer anything defensively. But I don't think it necessarily means you're worse. Same should hold for Ronaldo. He shouldnt be automatically lesser than other greats because he's pointless defensively, not if his attacking contributions make up for it.
Couldn't agree more. To some, goals = performances now though, unfortunately.
The "modern game" argument is this. Any time I see games from that era the main thing that strikes me is that when a team lost the ball 3 or 4 attacking players would stay upfield or trot back slowly. In modern football it's seen as an aggressive move to play 2 up front and most teams will have 2 banks of 4 (or whatever their defensive shape is) in place within seconds of losing the ball. Obviously different teams have different defensive styles, some will press high up the pitch but most will drop deep into a structure and deny the opposition space.
Ronaldo usually played wide right in a 4-4-2 at United which meant he needed to drop back into that defensive shape. Modern full backs get forward so often it generally forces wingers into very deep defensive positions. At the level he is currently at, there is no benefit having him so deep on the pitch. He will be the best attacking player in any team he plays in so let someone else do it.
I actually don't even know if we are talking about the same thing. If you just mean the players should try to pressurise and win the ball back from a player that's near them then yes I agree with you but being given a clear defensive role in a system? Absolutely not. When the opposition has the ball Ronaldo/Messi should be looking to find the best position to receive the ball when one of their teammates wins it back. They are elite attackers and rubbish defenders so let them do what they're best at.
The notion that Ronaldo is just a goalscorer doesn't hold water. He's much more that that even though he isn't a playmaker. It's not a coincidence that he tops the assists table in La Liga. Every one who watches him enough knows that to present him as a modern version of Gerd Müller would be silly.
That's a fair point. However, if I'm not mistaken, Barca didn't have much competition back then, for Madrid, let alone Atletico, weren't particularly good.
It's not only about the goals, see above. Besides, I stated a second condition, namely retaining the CL. Barca failed to do it with their best ever team. In terms of winning mentality, leadership and mental toughness, Ronaldo may be ahead of Messi. However, that's quite speculative right now.
I wasn't trying to say he was just a goalscorer. He still has his poor games that he covers up with goals (see last night), but compared with last season and further back he's a much better overall player who adds more to the team than just goals now.
My point was that equalling/bettering Messi's best total for a season doesn't mean he had a better season and doesn't mean he's a better player. You'd have to look at their overall performances, not just goals. Again, not saying he can't hit the level of a peak Messi (though I do heavily doubt it, I admit), just saying it takes more than goals. I don't think the CL point is too relevant either, I'd be focusing more on his performances than what his team wins if I was comparing him with anyone.
How did he only manage 31 league goals last season? To have 25 by December is astonishing.
I agree with that point. When we were debating Ronaldo and Messi 2-3 yars ago, I was saying similar things. Unlike Ronaldo, Messi is one of the best playmakers around. But you cannot use a player both as a playmaker and as a striker. Messi is more versatile but this does not make him intrinsically better than Ronaldo. For instance, Rooney is more versatile than Aguero but this does not make him a better player than Aguero. Rooney is a better playmaker than virtually any striker out there. But he isn't one of the top 5 or even 10 forwards in the world.
In short, there are other important qualities, such as movement, pace, heading, winning mentality, toughness, etc. etc in which Ronaldo may compensate for Messi's superior skills on the ball. Generally, I still think that Messi at his best is better than Ronaldo at his best. But I think that Ronaldo has improved this season once again and Messi's superiority is not as clear cut as it was earlier.
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The funny thing is that Gerd Müller was much more than a poacher as well and the idea that it's an insult on Ronaldo's overall game to compare him with Gerd Müller is much more disrespectful to Müller than the comparison is to Ronaldo.
Fair enough. I think we were actually on the same page all along, I just focused too much on what you said about the goal record I guess. I agree with all of that - I've said similar in the past, maybe not about versatility as such but about how being a "more complete" player doesn't mean you're a better player.
Real set a club record of points in the league in 09/10 and were an even better side in 10/11. It's somewhat true for the 08/09 season, when there wasn't much competition in the league, it's definitely not true for Barca's 2nd and 3rd title win.
I like G. Müller and do not regard him as a pure poacher. Still, Ronaldo's game is very different, IMO. Müller was an out and out striker, Ronaldo isn't.
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