Not like Oviedo, Recreativo Huelva, Racing de Santander or Rayo Vallecano are super teams.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Not like Oviedo, Recreativo Huelva, Racing de Santander or Rayo Vallecano are super teams.
This.
Started the move and finished it off brilliantly. The way he drew four Liverpool defenders to the ball and then attacked the space vacated was wonderful stuff.
I can see this.
I don't think it will be highly debated at all. Messi has that X factor. What separates great footballers and ones with God-given touch. I love Ronaldo and think all the talk about his arrogance or selfishness and how he attempts a lot of shots on target each game is rubbish. If a scientist designed a footballer, it wouldn't be too different to Ronaldo. However, Messi at his best was just as efficient but had that extra finess, beauty if you will. He could things on the ball that reminded you of when you were a kid on the playground. In short, Ronaldo is the most efficient and valuable player in the planet, maybe ever. Messi on the other hand is an artist who at his best was just as efficient.
Agree with all of this.
That finish yesterday was very difficult to execute.. for me it is already one of my favourite goals of his, just an understated but genuine world class moment.. and not a typical goal I associate with him. If he continues this level of form and Real win another CL, he is up there with the best of all time i.e. top ten.
So you mean he is currently not among top ten of all time?
Ignoring the over the top hyperbole there, it obviously will be highly debated- since it already is highly debated.
There was a debate between Platini and Maradona once upon a time too but that faded over time, and 2 years ago I would've thought Ronaldo and Messi would go the same way. Ronaldo's turning that around.
It's pretty much confined to Madrid and United fans though
Really? I know a lot of fans of other clubs who would say otherwise tbh. I hate these debates though so I'm not even going to bother looking at other club's forums to see what they're saying.
He might be already, it is a difficult discussion and will open a can of worms on a thread which is dedicated to Ronaldo. Put simply..
Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, L. Ronaldo, Platini, Garrincha, Romario, Van Basten, Zidane, Eusebio, Baresi
I'm sure I missed some names out here (ones in bold are definite top 10 material for me) but it isn't that easy to compile a top ten let alone put someone as the GOAT based on just 2 CL wins in which he didn't really star in both finals, but yes he scored mind you. There is also Messi to compete with too. I think both can cement their names in the top 10, they might already be in there but for me I'd rather wait until their careers are over.
I agree that compiling a list of top 10 of all time is difficult and there will be different opinions but just like you have put those names, I or someone else can easily claim CR to be better than many names there in that list.
Ugh. The same cliched arguments.
This makes for a much better debate. Where does Ronaldo rank amongst the following wide forwards/wingers...
Best
Garrincha
Cryuff
Jairzinho
Matthews
Figo
Gento
Stoichkov
Giggs
Ronaldinho
Can't think of any more... @Brwned can surely add more.
Personally, based on what I have seen, I'm loathe to place Ronaldo on the same level as Best, Garrincha and Cryuff. He easily beats the other candidates.
This makes for a much better debate. Where does Ronaldo rank amongst the following wide forwards/wingers...
Best
Garrincha
Cryuff
Jairzinho
Matthews
Figo
Gento
Stoichkov
Giggs
Ronaldinho
Can't think of any more... @Brwned can surely add more.
Personally, based on what I have seen, I'm loathe to place Ronaldo on the same level as Best, Garrincha and Cryuff. He easily beats the other candidates.
Maradona's 86 WC performance was the main reason it faded. Same reason someone like Di Stefano is not put in Pele, Maradona tier regardless of how many European cups he won.
Surely Ronaldo beats Best on longevity alone, Best had 4/5 great seasons in his entire career and for most of them United were a mid table team.
It is more for the sake of the drama it generates. Two great players in the same league at the same time. But when it comes down to it and when you look at what respected professionals have to say about them, it is quite one sided. The general opinion seems of admiration and respect for Ronaldo's records and achievement whereas Messi is treated like a God in the footballing world.
Exactly, they were born into the perfect generation of football broadcasting and social media as well, which does not let a single piece of brilliance go unnoticed. I honestly think they'll go down as the two best ever goal scorers (if not the two best ever players).
Platini was easily the better player from 82-85 for Juventus and he won 3 Balon D'ors on the run. Maradona was playing well but struggling with injuries and fell out with Lattek in his 2 year stay at Barca. Maradona was good at Napoli but by the time Maradona hit his genuine peak 86, Platini was struggling with injuries himself and was one season away from retirement.
It would have been great if both their peaks coincided at the same time but it didn't. What I'm saying is that it would be unfair to compare Messi-Ronaldo to Maradona-Platini as the former pair had a few competitive years when they were both at their peak(so far), something the the latter clearly did not have.
There can be valid arguments about players in history who could do something more magical with the ball than Ronaldo but that doesn't necessarily put them ahead of him. The old timers will not like to put Ronaldo at same level as Cruyff or Best but we are seeing a player who is in his 13th year of his career and probably at his best when we see others generally start tapering off at this stage for his position (with very few exceptions). He has scoring record which eclipses most, he has achievements which eclipses most and he is such a physical freak that a major injury aside, he can easily go on for 3-4 more years at very top level.Very very few on that list lasted that long at top level. As great as Best was, and I feel truly blessed having him played for United, his other issues stopped him realizing his ability further and to me it is a criteria: How long player stayed at top level. I don't buy into Ronaldinho being one of the very best of all time for that very reason. Great player? Sure. He was friggin awesome for 3-4 years and then slid down remarkably fast.Not good enough to be among best ever.
The fact that Ronaldo has elevated himself to a fitness level which can hardly be matched by any other footballer and on top of that he has kept on improving his game play and scoring rate is a fact which is not given much weightage but it should. It is not easy what he does, else we would have others doing it but throughout history we will not find many matching him at that level, for that long.
If you compare him stats wise with these 3 you mentioned, he is ahead. Though that is not only criteria, it is quite important one as it results in more chances of achievements for team and Ronaldo has been part of so many of them.
In the end, few more years/decades down the line, people will look back at mostly stats and videos they can find through archives. They will find Messi and Ronaldo being awesome with the ball, they might find someone else from earlier who could do more but then they will look at the freakish stats of these 2 and will find it tough to see how anyone else can be called better.
As far as that list goes, Ronaldo is the Best (no pun) for me
There'll be a lot of people outside of the two who'll side with Ronaldo. In general, I think it's quite heavily favoured in Messi's direction. But there's no doubt Ronaldo's pulling more in in recent years, or since Messi's injury problems began and Ronaldo, credit to him, just hasn't relented at all.
Too much has been made of Messi's injuries as an excuse, forgetting or ignoring that Ronaldo too is carrying an injury and carried one during world cup too. Ronaldo too has had injuries in the last 5 years, most notable during his first season at Real.
I think Messi still edges it comparing their respective peaks but a lot of that is around him being the more aesthetically pleasing to watch.
Messi carries the ball beating players as he goes, doesn't batter shots/FKs into the stand fairly regularly, CR7 scores a lot with headers (just a header....) FKs & penalties. Just a perception thing. Have you seen Ronaldo head the ball, bloody hell.... would be a more appropriate reaction.
Top 10 is too narrow a categorisation if your listing the GOATs - for me it is, anyway. There are too many different kinds of player.
Messi carries the ball beating players as he goes, doesn't batter shots/FKs into the stand fairly regularly, CR7 scores a lot with headers (just a header....) FKs & penalties. Just a perception thing. Have you seen Ronaldo head the ball, bloody hell.... would be a more appropriate reaction.
Top 10 is too narrow a categorisation if your listing the GOATs - for me it is, anyway. There are too many different kinds of player.
Nah. It's not just the aesthetic value. Messi is quite simply the better player. As someone said earlier in the thread put Messi anywhere in the attacking third and he's the best player in the world.
By the time Messi is finished he'll quite comfortably be regarded as the better player. Ronaldo will be in the 2nd group alongside Pele, Maradona etc..
You mustn't have seen the 1986 World Cup.
Did he have the same kind of length of lay off as Messi's had? The answer would be no, Messi came back and lasted a few games before being out again, and truth be told, he's never got back to the same extraordinary form since that game away to PSG.
It's quite clearly affected him, the regular discussion over the last year or so has been a notable loss of acceleration and pace. It's hardly an excuse.
The biggest 'excuse' I've heard in this whole debate was "but Messi has xavi and iniesta", all the while Ozil, Di Maria, Alonso, Benzema and others were laying them on a plate for Ronaldo countless times every week, now you throw, Bale, Modric and James into that mix too.
Someone further up said Madrid 'maybe' have the better squad now. I think that's a little unfair, Madrid blatantly have a far stronger squad.
The answer would be yes. Ronaldo played just 35 games in 2009-10 season and only 29 in league. In no season since Ronaldo's arrival has Messi played in less than 30 in league and least he played over the season is 46 last season.
Since Ronaldo joined Madrid, he has played 259 games, Messi 275. If you say, injury affected Messi's game for few games after returning, same is true for Ronaldo or any player for that matter. So, yeah, Messi's injury is a big excuse.
Also, Real don't have 'blatantly' better squad. At the moment better yeah but not great deal, especially not in forward area which concerns both players.
You sure about that? wasn't Messi out for a couple of months, only to end up out for another couple of months almost instantly? I know Ronaldo also missed 3 or 4 games through suspension in his first season too.
Same is true for Ronaldo? well clearly not because it hasn't affected his game one bit so I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion.
And it's blatantly better. They have an embarrassment or riches and a strong bench too. Barca are stuck with Pedro who couldn't hit a barn door, a couple of teenage kids with no experience, and out of form Iniesta, an aging Xavi and Rakitic. Take your Ronaldo spec off mate
What has form to do with how good the squad is? You're saying Iniesta counts against Barca's squad level? They have a veteran international home grown player in Pedro as backup. Their main strike force is Neymar-Messi-Suarez.
Barcelona's starting lineup is the best in the world. I have no doubt about that. Only Ronaldo and Modric would be sure to get into Barca's starting lineup. The rest are debatable.
I don't see how it's a bad thing either to have 18-22 year old home grown players playing and playing well at that. That's only good for the future. Not much like that going on with Real. Only Nacho and Jese getting and game time. They're sure to follow the rest of their players in doing their growing up somewhere else and then possibly returning via a buyback clause.
Barcelona's starting lineup is the best in the world. I have no doubt about that. Only Ronaldo and Modric would be sure to get into Barca's starting lineup. The rest are debatable.
I don't see how it's a bad thing either to have 18-22 year old home grown players playing and playing well at that. That's only good for the future. Not much like that going on with Real. Only Nacho and Jese getting and game time. They're sure to follow the rest of their players in doing their growing up somewhere else and then possibly returning via a buyback clause.
He played 46 games last season. I don't know how a player who is out for 4 months can end up playing 46 games. So it will be better if you look up things before talking random. Or I will help you. Here are the details of injury history for both:
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/verletzungen/spieler/8198
http://www.transfermarkt.com/lionel-messi/verletzungen/spieler/28003
Check under ->performance data ->injury reports
at your last para. Oh my god. This doesn't even warrant a response. What about Neymar and soon a certain Suarez? I loved how everyone at Barca is either out of form or ageing or kid or whatever but everything at Real is fine and then you tell me to specs off! Irony.Oh.The.Bollocks in my opinion.
Suarez? he hasn't played a game yet. Iniesta the only midfielder they have left who can really make things happen on a regular basis, he hasn't been doing it. And maybe the coach agrees and that's why Messi's been put in a withdrawn role to take some of the creative burden too?
You don't think Ramos or Pepe would walk straight into their team for their joke defence? Bale and James would are streets ahead of Pedro, Modric is lightyears ahead of Rakitic, Kroos is a better midfielder than Busquets (up for debate, but imo Busquets has regressed rapidly).
Take your Ronaldo spec off mate!
He played 46 games last season. I don't know how a player who is out for 4 months can end up playing 46 games. So it will be better if you look up things before talking random. Or I will help you. Here are the details of injury history for both:
http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cristiano-ronaldo/verletzungen/spieler/8198
http://www.transfermarkt.com/lionel-messi/verletzungen/spieler/28003
Check under ->performance data ->injury reports
I love how you've got the cheek to mention Suarez who hasn't played a single game. Neymar's been on good scoring form, his all round play leaves a lot to be desired.
It doesn't warrant a response because you don't have a response. And you could always just look at the way their respective teams are playing without bothering about analyzing individual performances. Madrid are better, faster, more incisive, and ruthless.
People will probably make some sort of case for Barca's defence being sound now, but they've kept clean sheets against shit teams, a few of which have let them off the hook big time. PSG showed that they're still painfully fragile, and I suspect Madrid will demonstrate that again at the weekend.
You know Barca sit top of the table, right? They have played Bilbao, Malaga and Villareal. The decent teams in La liga. Yes, it is obvious to everyone that their defense is not strongest but there is reason they have kept so many clean sheets and are winning and no Messi is not the only reason. I will leave you with your delusion now, you are not worth wasting more time on. Thanks for the laugh though.
Happy wanking over Ronaldo
You're obviously familiar with delusion anyway. And yeah I wouldn't claim Messi was the only reason anyway so you're alright there. Arsenal sat top of the PL for a good time last season by the way.
ps, if it helps stop the flow of tears. I think Ronaldo's out on his own at the moment, there's no question he's the form player in the world. His hunger for goals and unrelenting desire are something else.
Joke of defense? The defense that has conceded zero goals? No I don't think they would. They're both hot heads. Good enough but when things go against them they lose the plot. Can never count on them to save your ass.
Bale and James are starters. Pedro isn't. He's only starting because Suarez is suspended. Modric is better than Rakitic yes, I suggested as much. Busquets might have regressed but he's still the best DMC of the lot. Like I said, only Ronaldo and Modric would definitely make it into Barca's team. Kroos doesn't play Busquets role so he would be wasted. I'd have Ronaldo instead of Neymar and Modric in midfield with Iniesta and Busquets. Keep the defense the same. Perhaps Marcelo for Alba but not necessarily. Doesn't really matter much.
Too many variety of players there. Some are out-and-out wingers, some are like false winger cum playmaker.
I think probably only Stoichkov comes closet to the Ronaldo mould. Best and Cruyff are more similiar to Messi than Ronaldo.
I think Ronaldo is pretty unique in that I can't recall many players whose contribution has been so heavily focused on goalscoring. I think it makes more sense to compare him to strikers than winger or playmakers. I don't mean that as a criticism; pretty much the opposite, I just think he's a one off in how single-minded when it comes to scoring goals and little else especially when you compare him to his younger self.
Aye, better off comparing him with other heavy goalscorers - Eusebio, Muller - rather than out-and-out wingers.
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