When you signed him though, it didn't feel like a bargain did it ?
Cristiano Ronaldo
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When you signed him though, it didn't feel like a bargain did it ?
It certainly was a hell of a lot of money but I wasn't opposed to him joining us, that's for sure
A United supporting collegue I used to work with called it very early in his career that one day, he'd probably want to join Madrid. Since then I started watching United games regularly. He was such a beast with you guys aswell.
In a few years time we'll play eachother in his testimonial game. One half with us, one half with you, just like Ruud.
Absolutely, no one can argue they didn't play a key part in what was most likely the most entertaining, attractive attacking football we've played in over a decade that season. I don't think they were peripheral in the following seasons either.
Every thread is depressing here these days.
2008: best team in the world with the best player in the world and the best manager ever
2013: 7th in the PL with brightest star an 18yo and an incompetent manager
2008: best team in the world with the best player in the world and the best manager ever
2013: 7th in the PL with brightest star an 18yo and an incompetent manager
Every thread is depressing when you post in it banging on the same drum for sure.Every thread is depressing here these days.
2008: best team in the world with the best player in the world and the best manager ever
2013: 7th in the PL with brightest star an 18yo and an incompetent manager
You really think so? I'd say that Di Stéfano is steadily and surely getting out of his reach for that to be true (unless he can start something this season and build on that for the next few years)... Individually, in my own opinion, and certainly in terms of trophies/achievements Cristiano is nowhere near him. And then there's the case of players like Raúl, whom I'd consider inferior to Cristiano individually, but whose impact in winning trophies cannot be denied, also holding several all-time scoring records. And if Puskás had joined RM straightaway in 1956 instead of being banned by UEFA from playing for 2 years we probably wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
Hard to define the best player in the history of a club. Look at us, you have someone like Best. Then Giggs who has won the most and Rooney could possibly become our greatest ever goal scorer. So many different ways to look at it and it's all down to personal opinion.
He is going to end his Madrid career with more goals than games played, which sounds impressive anyway, even more so when you consider he'd of played at least 350-400 games for them.
They must still be laughing. 221 games played, 230 goals scored all competitions.
They must still be laughing. 221 games played, 230 goals scored all competitions.
I still remember saying with no doubt in my mind when we sold him that he would never have a season like he did in 2007/08. I couldn't have been more wrong.
I remember saying he will score 50 goals a season and got laughed at. He'll probably manage 70 at some point.
They're impressive numbers, but that's the problem in judging him on an all-time scale. You have to seriously question why it hasn't all led to more trophies, or even individual achievements, than it has. And it wouldn't have been that noteworthy, if it weren't Real Madrid he was playing for.
Yeah I never get involved in the all-time scale because I've seen so pathetically little of about 90% of the footballers he'd be compared against, it's pointless for me to even try. Completely disagree with the rest of your post though, you can't just dismiss his phenomenal goal scoring record at the highest level.
I genuinely think you can put that down to the rest of the team. Unless you're saying that his play is somehow so anti-team that he is actively stopping anybody else from scoring, and causing them to concede goals.
One word - Messi. There's no doubt that in almost any other era from the last 30 or 40 years he'd have won multiple POTY titles.
What, scoring 230 goals in 221 games? That's just bollocks. If somebody scored 230 goals in 221 games for Bolton the world would be watching.
In reality, this wouldn't happen because a bigger clubs would buy him before he played that many - and if he scored 230 goals in 221 games for United, Liverpool, Juventus, Bayern or Milan we'd be having all the same conversations as we are now.
I was referring to the relative lack of silverware, to be clear. Of course that goalscoring record is ridiculous, regardless of what team he were playing for (although the worse the team the more impressive it'd be of course, but that's unrealistic for any player).
However, I don't subscribe to this whole "him doing all that in spite of his team mates" theory. You can't simultaneously praise him alone for that goalscoring record and then put the lack of silverware on the others, that makes no sense. Both bear some responsibility, surely. Balu has made some insightful points on that matter too (don't know if it was in this thread though), and I tend to agree that in the big games his impact on the game is often nullified by the very same dynamics that make him do so well (ie. score goals) the rest of the time.
Re: individual achievements, true, Messi has been the biggest deterrent to that, but I don't think it's that black and white. Xavi, Iniesta, Forlán, Sneijder, Ribéry... all of these might've been in the running as well as they have been even with both Messi and Cristiano present.
For me it goes like this for the BdO,
2008- Cristiano, deserved
2009- Messi, deserved, but Xavi would've IMO been an equally worthy winner.. arguably the best year/season any CM has had in the past decade.
2010- Messi, "controversial" but also deserved IMO because this is the season that public perception started to look at him as a possible all-timer and his performances were out of this world at times; Forlán and Sneijder would've been worthy winners for me as well, and possibly even Milito (his club season was incredible, although unfortunately absent at the WC).
2011- Messi, deserved
2012- Messi, undeserved; for me it should've gone to Cristiano or maybe Pirlo... only then Messi and maybe Iniesta
2013- ???, looking like Cristiano, which would be undeserved IMO... Ribéry has been playing out of his skin all year for club ánd country and won a friggin' treble so it's got to be him for me. Messi was far superior to Cristiano in the league (2nd half of 2012-13), equal in the CL (both halves), and currently inferior in the league (1st half of 2013-14), due to injury though, so I'd even have Messi before Cristiano for 2013. The only noteworthy performances he's had that year were the play-offs v Sweden and the games v Utd maybe? His only chance of silverware was squandered when he got himself sent off in the cup final v Atlético. He's in "the form of his life", yet they're 5 points behind both Barça and Atlético... both of whom he failed to score against.
Oh, well I guess it evens out for 2012 when I think Cristiano was comfortably more deserving than Messi (considering his impact in the title win, the CL and EURO 2012). Too bad for Ribéry though, maybe 2014 will be his year, who knows.
Skorenzy is talking crap. There are plenty of greats who did not win that much despite stellar records. At club level Ronaldo has already won more than someone like Platini did with Juventus.
How so? My initial reply was to Vato who was talking about Cristiano potentially being the best ever RM player... it's in that context that I'm looking at the silverware angle. Every other RM legend has substantially more silverware to their name during their RM career. Di Stéfano, Puskás, Gento, Raúl, Hugo Sánchez, etc. Hence my comment that it's a "noteworthy" (relative) lack of silverware for him. Do you still disagree?
So what?
David May has more silverware against his name than Robson. Does not make him better in anyway. Or do you mean only for Madrid winning silverware matters?
Raul was proper WC at his best but he does not belong in the same bracket as Ronaldo. It is irrelevant how many titles he may have won for Madrid. Right now both Puskas and Stefano are higher than Ron on any list but there is no reason why Ronaldo can not go on to be counted as better than them without winning even a single CL.
Such weird opinions, to be honest. 2010 is the one year where you might say that Messi did not deserve it. 2012? You're having a laugh. Messi scored 73 goals in 60 games in 11/12. 73 goals. He was utterly fantastic all season long.
His impact in big games is often nullified? He scored in like six consecutive Clásicós in a row at some point. It's been a myth for a long time that Ronaldo doesn't make enough of an impact on big games. He finds it tougher than against the lesser sides - like 100% of footballers do.
Irrelevant? Obviously it isn't so black-and-white that more titles means someone's a better player (which isn't what I was saying but what you seem to want to make this into), because there are other factors to consider, but to say they're irrelevant is the other extreme. A player's standing is commonly determined by his performances relative to others (incl. stats) and the impact of those performances on his team and himself (ie. silverware); there are plenty more factors involved but these two are the most important IMO. Among all-time greats it's natural for them to be stacked in both categories, so why isn't this the case for him (yet), especially given the record-breaking nature of his RM career?
I honestly do believe so. If he keeps breaking his own records in the years to come I'd be surprised if most fans wouldn't regard him as one of the best players ever to play for Madrid. Granted, I've never seen Di Steffano or Puskas play but I've seen other all time greats like Redondo, Raul, (fat) Ronaldo, Zidane, etc but I can't help but feel like Ronaldo has that something extra special, keep in mind that my memory's got more holes than a Swiss cheese though.
He's just been delivering week in, week out since he arrived here, his stats don't lie. Only one that comes close to that productivity is Puskas, so if he's considered an all time great I don't know why Ronaldo wouldn't. He's just unlucky he's peaked in the same era as Messi, else he would have had a lot more individual prizes and maybe even a few more trophies with us.
In 2010 I'd argue he deserves, along with several others... the World Cup complicates that particular year IMO, as I didn't think Sneijder was all that impressive in Serie A (even less the following season), excellent in the CL and impactful, free-scoring but again not all that in the WC; Milito had a fabulous club season, key to the entire treble (literally scoring the decisive winning goals in each of the 3 competitions), but did not feature at all in the WC and had a crappy start to the next season; and eventually Forlán performed excellent in almost every competition he played in, but then again his team did next to nothing in the league and it was "only" the Europa League that he won, it's mainly his WC performance that puts him up there. All that just to highlight that I didn't think there was one single stand-out candidate that year, but rather several.
Messi wins the stats contest for 2012, no problem. He was outstanding for Argentina throughout that year as well, far less so for Barça. In short, he was a bully at home, came up empty in the away games (which is what cost them the title) and was nullified in the season-deciding games (the 2nd league clásico which basically sealed the title for RM and in which Cristiano scored the winner, and the Chelsea SF, losing the ball that led to Chelsea's goal in the 1st leg and missing a penalty in the 2nd game that could've sealed it for them). So, no I don't think that his record-breaking goalscoring form should grant him a free-pass for that particular BdO.
The reason why I personally feel this way is that in 2010 he was playing at a far higher level and a far more all-round game, while in 2012 he had basically become a "glorified poacher" to use some hyperbole. I do see why the reverse is more universally accepted of course, but that's a sentiment I just don't share.
Re: Cristiano, I did not say he doesn't perform in the big games, rather I said that the impact he does definitely have is sometimes nullified by the system which allows him to have that impact in the first place (ie. him not having to track back has cost them goals which originated from the space left by him on his flank; I'm thinking of the SFs v Bayern and Dortmund). In this I'm actually talking about his performances in relation to the team, which so many people seem adamant to understate. He too, as any other player, lives and dies by the team. People seem afraid to criticize a Messi or a Cristiano Ronaldo, when in fact they have had their fair share of failures.
I meant for Rual-Ronaldo comparison. The gulf between the two is wide enough that Raul's honours do not come into the picture.
Well, that is your prerogative. I admit he is relentless, physically there aren't many that will have come close in the history of football and he is incredibly driven. But for me he just lacks that something extra special that would put him beyond doubt in a top10 of all-time (and hence together with the likes of Di Stéfano and Puskás). He's close though, maybe La Décima and a great WC with Portugal could do the trick and catapult him in there. That 10th Champions pot would likely make him an instant #1 as far as RM fans are concerned, I'd bet.
Well, I did say in an earlier post to Vato:
And then there's the case of players like Raúl, whom I'd consider inferior to Cristiano individually, but whose impact in winning trophies cannot be denied, also holding several all-time scoring records.
That is the difficulty in such an excercise IMO, to compare two players like Raúl and Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of who the greater Real Madrid legend is. Cristiano is superior individually, but when are Raúl's longevity, records and impact on the club no longer enough to outweigh that fact? For Vato, it isn't very long anymore or has already happened even. You are equally convinced I gather. That's all that I was questioning originally.
And had Ronaldo played during Raul's time I'm sure the same trophies and impact would have been achieved, if not more. It seems a pointless thing to bring up because Ronaldo is far superior to Raul in basically every way, especially as a goal scorer, so that he was able to play during a time where he could win more trophies is a bit irrelevant. If Raul was playing over the past few years do you think he would have had a greater impact than Ronaldo?
I doubt it, but I don't know. It's impossible to reach a consensus because there are too many factors that need to be agreed upon first (such as style, team mates, quality and competitiveness of opposition, etc.), but I don't think it's pointless to at least question it. I also don't think Cristiano is superior in every way to Raúl: their games are completely different from each other, so that too would play a role in the hypothetical scenario you posited. What I do think would've been likely, considering RM back then was far more proactive than the current one, is that a Cristiano in the late 90s/early 00s wouldn't have been such a goal machine necessarilly, but perhaps closer to the version at Utd in 06/07, more of a winger than a striker playing on the wings so to speak. Raúl in the current RM wouldn't really thrive as much, I don't think. If the system were tailored for him, then maybe but still questionable as he would certainly improve the creativity in the side, but on the whole probably diminish the goalscoring efficiency just by losing Cristiano alone.
Messi was incredible that year. Better than 11/12 for me, which actually was around about the point whereby his impact on games was beginning to lessen quite a bit. Was still the best around (Ronaldo's Euros were really not that good) but I'm not sure when we'll see a player like that again. During that Arsenal match period in particular he was crazily good.
I think due to the amount of success Raul and Di Stefano were involved with Ronaldo can't catch them. Though individually you can't really ask much more from him. Unfortunately he is playing in the era of this amazing Barca side. Vato can shed more light.
Raul lacks a lot more in his game than Ronaldo. Aside from not being Messi, I don't think an attacker can be as complete as Ronaldo. Sometimes you can overanalyse little things here and there, but at the end of the day Ronaldo and Raul are on different levels.
Raul in the modern context would be like a Ibra, Cavani, RvP level player at best.
Well, it's extremely unlikely. Raul has never managed a season as productive as Ronaldo's worst one, which also was his first season. Ronaldo each season has provided near enough double Raul's goal tally both in league and overall, so it's unlikely Raul would have near the impact Ronaldo has had. Ronaldo is clearly a much better player.
See, I respect your opinion, but that's why I said it's impossible to reach a consensus. My opinion on this matter is that you cannot compare their stats like-for-like or in absolute terms as the era Raúl was playing in was far less open as the current one, the level of defending was better, competitiveness in most leagues was better (La Liga anyway), games produced less goals generally, etc. Nowadays you have several players scoring 30+ goals each season, that just didn't happen a decade ago. The 20-goal/season strikers of back then are the 30-goal/season strikers of today. Unless you would rate a Cavani or Falcao as equals of a Henry or a Schevchenko?
That's the way I see it for the most part re: Messi in 2010. But he was just not up to the same level as before or even after for Barça in 2012, despite scoring more goals than ever. I think Cristiano was pretty good at the Euro's, to emerge from a group of death and then score the decisive goals in the QF was good enough, although he was very poor v Denmark, he was deadly v the Dutch and the Czechs. Really, the only point of criticism you could even level at him that year (2012) was that he missed his pen. in the shoot-out with Bayern, because his impact in both games was excellent (involved in all 3 goals).
Possibly yes, but that's not what I was judging anyway. I pointed out that Raúl does hold some qualities in which he's superior to Cristiano which considering their different playing styles isn't that bizarre to suggest IMO. For example I'd say that Raúl generally had a bigger creative impact in the build-up than Cristiano, who functions most of the time as the end point of attacks.
It's not because a player is superior as a whole to another, that the latter cannot be superior in certain specific areas of the game. Of course Cristiano is far more effective at his speciality than Raúl was at his, hence why he's rightly seen as the better player.
To be honest I haven't seen enough of them to compare, but I get your point. I think the issue for me is I see Ronaldo on another level to Raul entirely, I can dismiss the other factors that obviously can make a big difference, just in this case I don't think they really apply. I think it's not just the goals he is able to score in a single season, as many have reached 30+, but the insane consistency with which he is doing so that really takes him into that special category. I'm not sure Raul has ever looked as prolific as Ronaldo has for Madrid or that the other qualities you can argue he had over him, would have made a difference because of that.
It's hard to expect Messi fanbois to give Ronaldo too much props.
Cristiano's consistency is indeed one of his strongest aspects, in his goalscoring, in his fitness and lack of injuries, in his tendency to come up with the goods in almost every game and, as Brwned pointed out recently, even in his technique he is remarkably more consistent than the majority of his contemporaries and plenty of others too. Raúl had an excellent consistency in his goalscoring as well, certainly in the context of his era; between 1995 and 2004 he scored at least 20 goals in all competitions in all but 1 season. Looking at it from another angle, individual achievements, the gap isn't so huge. Raúl has 2 league scoring titles, Cristiano has 2 as well in his career (1 at RM); 2-2 in CL scoring titles as well; 0-1 in BdO's (although none so far at RM, probably in a few days time though), but then competition for this award was also greater in Raúl's era than it is now... now it seems to go to one of two players by default (which I disagree with, as outlined before in my BdO overview, well the "by default" part anyway). On the other hand, Raúl's career is over and Cristiano has just reached his peak.
So, the overriding conclusion would be that Cristiano has time on his side and by that alone is guaranteed to overtake Raúl (in status at RM) if he hasn't already. But I don't get the haste people have in deciding that. Same applies to Messi; I don't get all these people who want to already put him as the best ever, or even in the top3 of all-time, when for me personally he's only just begun to hang around the top10. I think people easily forget about all the previous players and their achievements or just refuse to acknowledge them because football was so different back then (this works both ways of course, plenty of old-timers who love to paint with a revisionist brush). It's natural to get caught up in the constant, non-stop bombardment of media attention lavished on these two and be amazed by all the records these two players are breaking, but it's not something that's exclusive to them, as the likes of Pelé, Di Stéfano, Puskás, Maradona, Cruyff, Gerd Müller, etc. broke plenty of records or achieved equally immense and even superior feats as well.
No doubt, I reckon a lot of that stems from most of us being too young to remember most of the past greats, as well as being in the moment and watching these two players right now who are clearly better than anything we've seen in our life-times so far. It might be a bit easier to hold off from judging if you've either watched a lot of those past greats or grew up with them, whereas for a lot of us it's hard to gain that perspective on what we don't know. That's why I personally shy away from comparing these two against all of those you mentioned there as I didn't see any of them play to the extent I have Messi or Ronaldo, so wouldn't really have enough of an idea. I could look at their successes and what not, but that only paints half a picture.
The Messi of 2010 wasn't as great as the Messi of 11/12. In 09/10, he had to deal with Ibrahimovic who wanted to be something else, rather than the wall he was intended to be. Trophy wise, 11/12 was pretty disappointing, but Messi's individual performances were top notch - he was more explosive and more of a better overall player, whereas 09/10 was the start of the Messi who started to realise that he can play great passes. Anyway I believe Xavi deserved the award in 2009. He was unreal in 08/09, but I wouldn't use the word "undeserved", unless the margin was big between Messi and said player(s). Good posts @Skorenzy
That's an extremely respectable position to take and I commend you for it! I couldn't do that, I'd always want to form an opinion, as I'm curious about history in itself and so too in that of my favourite sport. I enjoy debating the all-time standing of players, but as you touch on there are lots of problems with that (not being immortal and omniscient being one of them).
I don't see it. Maybe it's romanticism, but the 2010 version was just far more impressive in everything. I would completely reverse what you wrote about individuality and his explosiveness and all-round game!! That was the 2010 one IMO, in 2012 he strolled around the park so much, he looked lethargic and one-dimensional, waiting for his team mates to provide for him as I'd never seen before from him... he just didn't look at all creative and certainly not from deep, half the time he was stood in the box waiting for a tap-in. He scored an obscene amount of goals which was basically his only claim to the BdO that year and it stuck (unfortunately in my eyes), but he hardly created anything as impressive as in 2010 or other years, basically he turned into a glorified poacher on the back of his best season yet (2010-11, IMO) just to compete in a goal race with Cristiano and it cost them the title IMO because he no longer provided that extra edge that Barcelona needed to constantly win games. It's especially clear in the away games where they lost most of their points and where his impact had greatly diminished compared to other seasons. And as I mentioned in a previous post, also in the big games that year.
To back up my point about the away games with some stats:
2008/09: Messi scored 15 of his 23 league goals in away games / no Cristiano to compare
2009/10: Messi scored 18 of his 34 league goals in away games / Cristiano scored 13 of his 26 league goals in away games
2010/11: Messi scored 16 of his 31 league goals in away games / Cristiano scored 14 of his 40 league goals in away games
2011/12: Messi scored 15 of his 50 league goals in away games / Cristiano scored 23 of his 46 league goals in away games
2012/13: Messi scored 24 of his 46 league goals in away games / Cristiano scored 13 of his 34 league goals in away games
2013/14*: Messi scored 4 of his 8 league goals in away games / Cristiano scored 8 of his 20 league goals in away games
*on-going
It's certainly an interesting correlation and I'm sure it shows to an extent that away goals in this current era of La Liga are in fact winning titles.
Over-reliance on Messi cost Barca a potential European Cup in 2011/12 and similarly for Madrid is why they've been beaten by better team units like Bayern and Dortmund.
With Neymar and Bale providing them with a better supporting act this time round, will be interesting to see if either side at least gets into the final this year.
With Neymar and Bale providing them with a better supporting act this time round, will be interesting to see if either side at least gets into the final this year.
To add on to what Hectic was saying, it is very difficult to judge these 2 against the greats from previous years. The reason I say this is partly because of their unique situations at their respective clubs. Madrid and Barcelona have been operating in another league compared to their La Liga counter parts, especially over the past 5-7 years. Messi is playing in an almost 'once-in-a-generation" side who destroyed all pretenders and Ronaldo is playing for a team (squad) who probably cost more to assemble then the rest of the "other" 18 teams in La Liga combined*.
There's no doubt that Messi and Ronaldo are head & shoulders above their current peers. No doubt. But I think a ton of people are waiting for them to turn it on for their NT's etc, out of their comfort zone. In fairness, they've both had decent years in 2013 for the NT's, iirc. But their records are nothing compared to their club records.
I don't mean to turn this into a La Liga is shit thread etc...because it clearly isn't and they've both torn it up in the UCL as well - for the record but when they are faced with teams of a similar standing in world football, the differences isn't as remarkable as it is when they're tearing every team in La liga apart, week in, week out because that's how far ahead of the competition their respective teams/squads are.
* might be a slight exaggeration
There's no doubt that Messi and Ronaldo are head & shoulders above their current peers. No doubt. But I think a ton of people are waiting for them to turn it on for their NT's etc, out of their comfort zone. In fairness, they've both had decent years in 2013 for the NT's, iirc. But their records are nothing compared to their club records.
I don't mean to turn this into a La Liga is shit thread etc...because it clearly isn't and they've both torn it up in the UCL as well - for the record but when they are faced with teams of a similar standing in world football, the differences isn't as remarkable as it is when they're tearing every team in La liga apart, week in, week out because that's how far ahead of the competition their respective teams/squads are.
* might be a slight exaggeration
Unreal.
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