Excuse for what exactly?
Cristiano Ronaldo
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That's the point, the original post I replied to asked which players could manage to both "dominate" games and "decide" them on "their own", my reply thus inferring that he doesn't belong in that category.
But not to the same extent as with Cristiano, which is the whole point. They're all extraordinary players among the best of all-time (broadly speaking) so the differences in dependence on others, however small they me be, will be significant in the rating of these players. That also ties into why Cristiano isn't considered near the highest tier of all-time greats; he is far more dependent on his teammates setting him up than many other all-time greats.
Yes he has, Robbens highest tally in 09/10 was 23 in 37 games according to wiki. You really are stretching if you're trying to suggest that Ronaldos astonishing numbers are more of a result of the team being built towards him (even if it was, it's because better footballing brains than ours decided he was good enough to merit that) than his actual ability. There's a reason why no ones ever built a team around Robben the way they have Ronaldo, because he isn't good enough.
He wouldn't score as much no, but he'd still score more than what those players did last year IMO. Why? Because he's a better player! And Munich would still have won as much.
I've said this many times, but if they had a half competent defense, they'd win a lot more. For one they would have at least made it to last years' Champions League final.
Robben scored 16 while starting 18 league games and 12 in 13 league starts in 09/10 and 10/11. Like I said, when fully fit and not struggling with injuries, he came close to 1 goal per game and that's what Ronaldo scored in 12/13 for Real in every competition. And Bayern back then was nowhere near as dominant in the league as Real is today.
Obviously I agree, Robben isn't worth it to have a team built around him like Real is built around Ronaldo. Neither was Gomez worth to keep in the team after scoring 26 in 30 league starts and 12 in 12 CL games. The question is, is Ronaldo worth it, when that team comes short against on paper inferior teams and the lack of team work is a huge problem? I actually believe that Ronaldo could be a better player if he did his fair share of defensive work and helped more in the build-up. He would score less, but still easily outscore almost anyone in the world, but it would be so much easier to build a well balanced strong team. That didn't happen though this year.
He wouldn't have to play like those players do though because he isn't that sort of player. You'd never dream of benching Ronaldo because he doesn't drop back. If you stuck him at the front of that Bayern team he'd score so many goals he'd far outweigh any defensive contribution he might not bring. If you offered them the chance to swap Ronaldo for fecking Mandzukic they'd bite your hand off.
I was looking for full games but thanks for the clips mate, im gonna try and found the full games of those clips. One of the games i've seen was the first leg of the Real Madrid tie you posted a clip of gonna search for the second game.Again thanks.
You were the one that mentioned that they ar different players, who play differently. All you've done is outline those differences. Perhaps Real Madrid would've been better served defending more and scoring less, but I think that a criticism to be levelled at the manager, just as the successful utilisation of Ribery should also be attributed to the Bayern manager. Personally I think it would've been better if the Mourinho had built a team that allowed Ronaldo a platform to attack and not defend so much without it costing them games, SAF managed it.
Edit: the Real Madrid match i was talking about was the semi final of the EC in 72/73 between Ajax and Real not the one in the clip.
It's actually astounding that you attribute the entire way RM were set up to Ronaldo, it's the manager that decides and perhaps he got it wrong seeing as they won nothing, but blaming Ronaldo personally when he generally plays out of skin, is a model professional and scores obscene amounts is completely off the mark.
SAF showed that you can build a team around Ronaldo to be free to attack and still win things, and he won the ballon dor to boot that year.
The Ballon d'or should go to the best individual player. And Ribery is not a better player than Ronaldo.
That's basically the "goal" of the game, to outscore the opponents and to win games. Ronaldo is the ultimate executer with this winning mentality second to none, sure all of his skill sets are developed in a way that lead to goals. What I mean is he is not only a goalscoring machine which rely heavily on others, he also consistently scored goals out of nothing, by constantly finding goal scoring opportunities, constantly create space by his own to shoot out of nowhere, actively seeking great runs into good position which kind of "force" his teammates to assist him accordingly (a commander role is fair description in this sense though), and initiate a counter attack move which lead into him scoring goals and win games. There's a big difference I see rather than merely a goal scoring machine in traditional sense.
He's got 20 odd assists this year hasn't he?
Also, you actually believe that Robben stuff? If he was in Madrid team instead if Ronaldo and was fit all season he would score 50/60 a season?
No fecking way mate.
Yes they would. He would score most of the chances Mandzukic misses.The whole team has to revolve around him to get the best out of him. Stick him upfront i guess he would still bang the gaols in. But Ronaldo scoring 30 goals a season is less impressive than this Ronaldo we have now.
But that still translates into Ronaldo's performances and his influence on Real performing below or above par and therefore should count against him in comparison to others for a single season. Of course, Ronaldo is in general the better player than Ribery. That doesn't mean Ribery can't have a better season than him and it really doesn't matter for this year if Ferguson managed him better 5 years ago.
Really? That's the impression you get? Well, then let's agree to disagree.
Real have smart people in management I would presume. And yet each offseason, it seems the management is more interested in signing a current/next superstar attacking player. If management would focus on solidifying the back four, the side could dominate. Look at United for example - SAF signed Evra and Vidic in the winter window, gave them a few months to settle in, and the following season both took off. Combine that with the great Rio at his peak form, and Gary on the right (along with Wes) and the results followed.
Yeah, I think we'd better.
You continue to make your case for Ribery to win the balon dor, obviously I disagree and think that not only is Ronaldo clearly the better player, he also played better throughout the season.
You continue to make your case for Ribery to win the balon dor, obviously I disagree and think that not only is Ronaldo clearly the better player, he also played better throughout the season.
Is there any evidence to suggest Real Madrids team is built around Ronaldo and he benefits for it?
I've never understood this - how exactly is it built around him? He joined, slotted in on the left wing in a standard formation that most team uses.
I've never understood this - how exactly is it built around him? He joined, slotted in on the left wing in a standard formation that most team uses.
Indeed, they've never built a team around him as good as the one SAF did, and part of what made the SAF team so great was the unbelievable defence. Doesn't seem to be registering with quite a few people though, they would sooner blame Ronaldo for the conceding of goals rather than a fairly dodgy defence and the manager who put the defence together.
I'm not usually one to blame the manager, and think that players should actual take more accountability, but when a player plays like Ronaldo and contributes as much as he does I think it's safe to assume that he's the least of thier problems.
Team setting up the best goal scorer in the world to score goals shocker.
Team allowing thier best attacking player and one of the best in the world to do the least defending shocker,
The problem is if he doesn't help winning the ball back, he won't get as many chances as the attackers get now at Bayern. We need every single player to work hard in pressing to allow us to control possession or get the ball back to counterattack. We can't play a high defensive line with one player not tracking his man, because then teams score against us. Dortmund outplayed us for 2 consecutive years with us having clearly superior players individually that didn't do enough defensively. And the difference in quality between Robben and Großkreutz is problably bigger than between Ronaldo and Reus now.
Of course Ronaldo would start, he's clearly the better player than anyone we have, he could even play in his favorite position, but he'd need to work as hard as anyone else in defense or his goals won't improve the team. Do you guys really don't understand why Dortmund is so fecking brilliant and why they beat Real twice last season? Klopp is always talking about how he tries to drag the superior opponent down a level to even the playing field and allow his players to compete and that's exactly what he's done to Real. There is no outweighing defensive contribution when you play Dortmund and they look again better this season.
I don't know, ideally we would like to have a team of 11 players who are equally good in attack and defending, kind of like total football. Ronaldo, in my opinion, should be the last player asked for the defensive role. I remember when Ronaldo left us some suggest we would play better football as we would no longer be a one man team and whole team would take up more responsibilities and gear up. I am not sure if that was right in the end though. Ronaldo is a very special player. But then Dortmund is a very special team too.
I don't know if you're agreeing with me that it isn't really set up around him, or saying it is :P
I think you're agreeing with me.. I think.
Do want to give the award to the best player in the world, or the player who has had the best calendar year?
FIFA who award the Ballon d'Or:
If we go by your criteria Messi might win it 10 years in a row, whether he has a great season or not .
With the current criteria at least the likes of Ribery and Ronaldo have a chance of winning it, in theory.
Well obviously, the best player in the world for that particular year.If that's Messi then so be it.
Agreeing with you!
The team is set up around him but no more so than any other top player who is so clearly the best player in thier team, IMO.
To be set up around him they'd have kept Ozil and not spent 100m on a player who plays the same position in Bale.
He doesn't have to do as much defensive work perhaps, but that's it.
Real lack any sort of defensive cohesion and work rate though. I'm sure you could suffer having one player not work quite so hard if that one player also pretty much guarantees a goal. You'll only get better under Pep too, I can't imagine how ridiculous you'd be if you had Ronaldo as an out and out striker sort of player, with the 9 (10) others behind him working as well as they do now. Dortmund could only do what they did to Real due to their afore mentioned lack of defensive tekkers. They didn't do it to you in the final, remember.
Of course you can't give it to the guy who is "generally considered the best player around" instead of the best performer of that year. It would sort of have no meaning as a lot of people would argue that the guy who has been the best performer over the year is infact the current best in the world. Basically it's too vague that way and the basis would be some artificial tag no one could concretely make any sense of.
I was responding to a poster who stated:
He has now clarified this and agrees with both you and me that it should be the 'best performer over the year'.
I am still baffled that after 100 odd pages, JaffyJoe is still arguing that he doesn't do much in the big games. His main job as a winger, an attacking player, is to provide goals for his team and contribute in build up play. He holds the record for the most consecutive goals in an El Classico, the biggest game Real play; does that not count for doing anything in a big game? He scored in 8 of the 11 Champions league games last season, not scoring against Dortmund twice and City once right? So basically because he didn't perform in a couple of games means he isn't a big game performer? Well that means Messi isn't either, because He failed to turn up in one of the Bayern games and one of the Milan games. You're talking shit, why won't you accept you're talking it because it simply is getting ridiculous now. I see you have failed to mention anything about his contribution in the Juve game, why is that? Was it too small a game for you?
Could you exactly tell us what you expect him to do more in the big games? You keep saying it but you never provide details of what he should do. I guess he should sacrifice those not-so-important goals he is providing for the team so he can give opportunities for the other players to do well. Please enlighten us.
Could you exactly tell us what you expect him to do more in the big games? You keep saying it but you never provide details of what he should do. I guess he should sacrifice those not-so-important goals he is providing for the team so he can give opportunities for the other players to do well. Please enlighten us.
Actually Dortmund did. They outplayed us for 30minutes and should have been 2-0 up despite all our players working hard. We found a way to play through their pressing and then started to dominate the game, but we could have easily lost the CL final for the same reasons Real lost 4-1 to them in the semi final. The difference is we tried to do something about it, all our players did and it worked out.
Honestly I really don't think you can allow to give one player freedom when you play a high defensive line against a top team. Look at Barca in the last 2 years, their defense became a running joke and it's certainly no coincidence that it happened when their pressing declined and Messi had more freedom to score and did far less defensively. If you want to give your attacking players freedom, you sit deep, invite pressure and defend around the box, because it's less likely that your defense makes mistakes if they don't have to cover so much space, when attackers don't run at them with the ball at their feet and they are constantly caught out of position. It's really a nightmare for defenders, doesn't matter how good you are. But the truely great European sides were always dominant ones, built arond hard work by all players including their superstars. Ajax in the 70's, Sacchi's Milan, Barca 08-11, none of those teams gave one of their players the freedom so many think Ronaldo is worth getting. I really don't understand that. Shouldn't that be the level teams like United and Real are trying to reach?
There's also another point, team chemistry. I really believe that it's not healthy, if one player gets a lot of freedom while the others are constantly blamed for mistakes. If Ronaldo doesn't track back and the defenders are in certain areas outnumbered, their job becomes significantly more difficult, so it's more likely they'll make a mistake. Even if it's true that Ronaldo makes up for it by scoring and it's better for the team that way, he still should be blamed for his lack of defensive contribution. If in the end Ronaldo is the hero for scoring and the defenders are at fault for conceding and quite a lot people on here seem to think it's that black and white, you won't ever build a mentality necessary for becoming a great team. You constantly treat some of your players unfair, that won't work, they won't gain confidence, they really will continue to struggle. Again, wouldn't be that big a problem in a counterattacking side (and United 06-09 for the most part in big games was a counterattacking side), but that's of course never going to happen at Real. They want to build a team that is respected for winning trophies by playing beautiful football and beautiful football in Spain means something different than in England and why shouldn't they want that, after all they spend more money than any other club in the world. Also the whole development towards pressing, defending as a team really amplifies these problems. 10 years ago most teams were built around specialists in certain areas, you had your defensive midfielders protecting the back four, your attacking midfielders with freedom, goal poachers were seen as brilliant forwards. Fullbacks and box to box midfielders were the few positions in which versatility was really important. The game changed a lot in the last 5 years and Guardiola's Barca was highly influential in what is now happening in football and it makes it way more difficult to allow freedom to players.
He has been truly sensational so far this season. Really consistent with his performances. Probably the strongest player from a psychological POV in the world.
He's just out of this world. It's like he was built in a lab somewhere, he's the perfect forward you would want.
I'd have to agree with that, it just seems you can throw as much shit at him as you can and he'll still go out there and do what he does week in week out. In fact if anything he'll probably play better just to spite you.
He should win the award this year. Increasingly hard to give it to anyone else this year.
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