What you can say though is both Bayern and Barca have multiple entries in the shortlist, showing the support Ribery and Messi have, Madrid only have Cristiano and it is obvious really that he really doesn't get the same support, so his achievement should ideally get more credit.
Cristiano Ronaldo
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Real's shortcomings didn't prevent them from staging a late comeback after getting thrashed 4-1 away to Dortmund; they finished the 2nd leg needing only 1 goal to go through to the final and Cristiano was nowhere to be seen; didn't contribute to either goal.
Real's shortcomings weren't the cause for Cristiano to miss a penalty in the shoot-out against Bayern after putting in two good/great performances against them.
Last season RM defeated both Barça and Atlético with Cristiano on the bench; since then they've lost 3 games against these two teams with him on the field.
It's a weak excuse, when suddenly everything that goes bad is the team's fault, but when they're playing well it's all down to one man.
Right, people here saying he is only a goal scoring machine apparently has not idea what the game is about. Other than him being the best goalscorer I've ever witnessed (alongside with Messi), he is also the most complete attacker I've ever seen (can score all types of goals with all sort of skills set - great finishing, great long range shot, great freekick goals, great penalty taker, great header in the air, right foot, left foot, backheel, scored with his penis, scored poacher goals with great composure, beat players and scored with skills/pace/strength/great athleticism/great off the ball movement etc). Apart from that, he also has the strongest determination and greatest consistency I've seen in a player, a player with strongest winning mentality and the best player ever in counterattack situation too. I rank him the best of all time in those aspects.
Saying that he may not dribble like Messi, pass like Xavi, or influence game like Zidane, or carrying game with godly skills like Maradona. But they may not match Ronaldo in those aspects either.
So Ronaldo helping out in defense and midfield would have been more helpful to his team then? That's what Ribery did, you know, ignoring what his individual stats will look like in the end, but doing what was necessary to have that balance Real is missing. Maybe that was actually more influential in winning important games than scoring one goal and watching his team get overrun like Ronaldo did in Dortmund? Ribery's CL final performance and Ronaldo's performance in the 4:1 loss are really perfect examples for what their season looked like. In both cases Dortmund outplayed the other team in the beginning. One waited for his teammates to do their job and hoped his goal will be enough, it wasn't. The other one defended, helped out in CM and worked his ass off until his team started dominating and then still was influential in 2 goals.
I really don't understand why someone would prefer Ronaldo scoring but loosing out on titles over someone making his team play dominant football and winning titles without scoring.
You could say that, but put it this way who's season would you rather have had Ribery's or Ronaldo's?
p.s Ronaldo plays with world class at Real. They are the reason he gets so many goals.
Completely agree.
Özil should still count as a Madrid player and I disagree.
I think if you look at Özil when he plays for the German nationalteam and now at Arsenal, it's pretty obvious that he really was used as a feeder for Ronaldo and wasn't allowed to play to his full strength. His movement was solely focused on getting Ronaldo through to goal. It's the same with Higuain, imo. Looks like a completely different player at Napoli where he's allowed to play to his strength instead of moving in a way that allows a wide forward to get in great goal scoring positions. You could argue that Ronaldo is that great that it's best for the team. But I don't think it's fair to say that he obviously had less support to achieve his individual stats, quite the opposite actually.
Real really weakend a lot of their players to get the best out of Ronaldo. Ribery is the exact opposite, he helped everyone around him to perform better.
Ribery plays in a much better team filled with world class, so why doesnt he score as many goals as Ronaldo if its so easy?
He doesn't have to do both all the time. But when his team is struggling to create he should look to take on more of the burden. He has a tendency to wait around for things to happen. In the bigger games it becomes harder to create, therefore less chances arise and his tendency to wait around becomes more obvious. I saw it against us and against Dortmund. The tie in between he was great against Galatsaaray.
Some games he is up for it and I know he has it in his locker that is the only reason I bring it up.
I was OTT saying Gerrard and Kaka were better bigger game players but their big game performances over the last decade are more memorable for me than Ronaldo's. In all honesty Gerrard's boils down to the 2005 final and his goals against West Ham and Olympiakos. Kaka Ballon d'or season was immense and 05-07.
Gerrard
Sorry, that was funny.Those players you've mentioned are all great players, they were the best of all time. But Ronaldo has that will to score, no matter how worse the situation is, what type of opponents he is facing against, whether his teammates are playing well or not, he will still find a way to score, all possible way. I find it very rare, in fact, I've never seen any player (other than Messi) have it in my whole life (I haven't witness the great Pele and Di Stefano mind, but they were in the era of free scoring which put less emphasis on the defending).
You make it sound like Ribery could match Ronaldos output if he weren't so unselfish, in reality he would do well to achieve half of it.
Most of the criticisms I'm seeing of Ronaldo boil down to his team winning nothing, as if somehow that's his fault - it really isn't. It's more the managers fault than his, SAF managed to utilise Ronaldo in a similar way and won a great deal, perhaps it was down to just being a better manager or having assembled a better team, but claiming that it's something inherently to do with Ronaldos style of play why Madrid were unsuccessful is way off the mark for me.
Are you a masochist? Why do you hurt yourself by posting so much in this thread?
Their team doesn't play solely for one player. Ronaldo is the alpha dog at Real, I understand why he is their best player. But Benzema, Higuain, Ozil, Di maria are/were so used to deferring to Ronaldo that in the bigger games where they need to put more of an individual stamp they couldn't. They look to Ronaldo and in those games it is harder for him to have that affect. I don't think he is a quiet big game player because he doesn't have the talent, my problem is that he should do more in those games. He let's these games pass him by. I honestly don't think he had a good game against us or Dortmund in those 4 matches. He scored 3 times though. Bayern play are more balanced game. Ribery, Robben or Muller could score the goal that kills you. They have a solid defence and everybody works hard for the team.
Also I don't think what he does is easy, but what is it worth if he wins no titles? Do you think he would half his goal tally to win the treble? I'm genuinely unsure (I think Messi is justa greedy so don't think it is a vendetta against Ronaldo).
I feel fine, if you don't want to debate/argue with people who disagree with you then you shouldn't be in a forum imo.
It's no use, all people want to see is goals. Just like the post above yours describing what a complete "attacker" he is by summing up all the attributes mainly linked to goalscoring and which can all be neatly filed under the category "finishing"...
The most recent game is a great example of why he would benefit from being more involved in aspects besides goalscoring; Juventus wouldn't have scored the equaliser in the fashion they did, with Cáceres delivering a great cross because Cristiano didn't track his man.
RM have already conceded far more goals than usual this season, but people don't stand still to think that it might have something to do with shoehorning both Cristiano and Bale into the side -- no, it's easier to just blame the defenders and defensive shortcomings. I'm not saying that it should be Cristiano's responsibility, but it's an obvious problem given his position on the pitch and it has cost RM on important ocassions. Fyi, this is more for the people who still like to peddle the myth that he's a winger, because there is no way you can reconcile both factors.
Better to let go than going around in circles, when all evidence points otherwise, to be fair.
You've just described his entire game and it all revolves around his goalscoring...?
I don't now if your giving up or telling me to??
I didn't say that, I don't think you saw what I replied too. My point was they ALL play with quality. Ronaldo is at one of the world's best teams too.
No I really don't. Individual awards are actually about performances and their influence on how their teams performed and not about what a player in theory could achieve, so I really don't care how many goals Ribery could score. For example, I think Robben could come close to Ronaldo's numbers if the team would focus as much on him and freed him from all defensive duties, but I don't give a flying feck about Robben's individual numbers, if he's not part of the team and does his share of work, he can sit on the bench.
Of course he would half his goal tally to win the treble, I think Riberys was one like one fifth of Ronaldos tally though. If you think otherwise then it really goes a long way to explaining some of your more odd posts in this thread.
Most people's arguments to try and reconcile the facts that (1) Cristiano scores a hell of a lot of goals and (2) his team is ultimately largely unsuccessful, seems to be to somehow separate Cristiano from the "team", while giving no thought whatsoever to the notion that it might just be because of his "team" that he manages to score so many goals in the first place.
This Bayern could potentially be the greatest team in past 30 years, seriously. I am not sure its mostly down to Ribery though. They have players of equal qualities everywhere, and they play great team football too. Its like back in 1999 when we won the treble, there's no single player standing out, as its more like the whole team are standing out as a unit.
Real and Barcelona will never match them with their Ronaldo or Messi.
You said the quality Ronaldo plays with is the reason he scores so much. If that was the case they'd all score so much. Real are arguably the worst footballing side out of the 3 (Barca, Real and Bayern). Ronaldo's scoring is clearly more down to his own ability and style. I'd dare say he'd be banging in the goals at any of the 3.
People are going on in this thread like goals are secondary in the match. The entire point of the game is to score goals. Ronaldo does exactly that. Maybe it's nicer to watch someone like Messi or Ronaldinho or Ribery but Ronaldo's efficiency and output is something any team would love to have. He doesn't control games the way the others do but that isn't his job or his game.
BTw this has nothing to do with this thread but since hes benn mentioned here more than a couple of times can anyone point me what were Johan Cruijjf's best games or best performances? i've only seen a couple of his games and hes been underwhelming, not saying he wasnt a great player cause if so many rate him that high its not all just a big coincidence, i just really want to see him at his best thats why i'm asking if someone can point me out games i can check out. Thanks.
Dominating games from a wide position or a striker position rarely pays off - Zidane was a central midfielder. You are comparing apples with oranges here, mate. Sure, Ronaldo disappears from time to time, but so does most players - indeed all players. He doesn't defend as well as Roy Keane - will you hold that against him too?
Ronaldo scores pretty much in every match I see Real Madrid play. Without him, they wouldn't be close to Barcelona and Bayern. He's pivotal to their success; the trait of any great player.
You honestly think Robben would be scoring 60 a season? That's laughable IMO.
Of course the results of the team matter more than anything else, but it's odd you (or maybe some of the others) seem to think that it's Ronaldo disagree with this, and somehow it's him dictating to managers like Mourinho and SAF to get the team to feed him chances and absolve him of his defensive duties because all he cares about is his personal tally, it isnt. Teams generally set up that way because they think it's the best way to achieve results, perhaps they were wrong (SAF wasn't when he did it) or perhaps there were simply better teams out there, either way, levelling the difference between Bayern etc and Madrid at Ronaldos door is silly, in reality he's he only thing that got them as close to them.
I don't understand why you compare their goal tally? If we compare the teams, then Robben is a poor Ronaldo and Ribery a brilliant mix between Özil and di Maria and I'm not exaggerating here, he brings as much defensive workrate as di Maria and as much creativity as Özil to the table. Even though it looks like they start in a comparable position on the formation sheet, they play completely different roles in their teams and influence the team in completely different areas.
Wait you have taken it to an all time perspective? Why? No one considers Cristiano to be in the bracket of the names you just mentioned. I'd happily have him in the bracket of the likes of Ronaldo (Brazilian), Van Basten, Puskas, etc.
I only mentioned him because that's the comparison I thought the poster was getting at. He does get mentioned an awful lot in this thread though as if he overll brings more to the table than Ronaldo, he doesnt IMO. De Stefano, Pele etc did, but there's no shame in that.
You can argue with this with every great players past and present (bar Maradona).
He doesn't need to dominate, he needs to contribute more in those bigger games. So in your opinion he did well against Dortmund and if not what went wrong?? I don't think Ronaldo has put in a big game performance in the last 4 years as good as Reus' (who plays out wide) in the first leg against Real and he didn't even score!!!
Ronaldo is above 'most players' his competition are all time greats. When I look at what they did and what Ronaldo is doing he is lacking. I'm not here for excuses or to ignore his goal record, which has been amazing. But to look at what he doesn't do. Those here who are against him as you see it have not forgotten all the things he brings to the table.
The support doesn't end with the attacking play though. People talk how Ronaldo keeps on waiting for the ball to arrive when Madrid is being dominated, how is that his fault? It's the fault of the defense and midfield who cannot keep it well enough or win it back quickly enough. Ronaldo is a forward, he needs service. While players like Ozil and Higuain have done a lot to provide him service, in big games generally the Madrid backbone hasn't been as strong as Bayern's or Barca's. I think we can say that if Ronaldo was in Barca under Pep or Bayern last season he would have definitely performed better as they have a much better platform which functions great as a team.
Has Ronaldo scored 60 a season? In 12/13 he scored 34 in 34 league games, 12 in 12 in the CL, 7 in 7 in the copa and 4 in 8 in the world cup qualifiers for Portugal.
I didn't say he'd match Ronaldo's stats, I said coming close and I think Robben could score close to 1 goal per game on average, if Bayern supported him in the same way Real supports Ronaldo, yes. I don't think that's far off, especially if he's not hampered with injuries. He came close to that when he was fully fit in 09/10-10/11 while playing in a clearly inferior team compared to Real now. The problem is, we would be back to Ribery and Robben hating each other, you know all the fighting in the team, Müller being pissed off, Robben choking him, Ribery punching Robben. It's not worth it.
I don't even understand what you guys are arguing about. The best post in the last 20 pages belongs to Brophs and that should end all arguments.
He scores so much because like Messi his team is built around getting the most out of him. Bayern is the most balanced and is reaping the rewards. He would not score as many at Bayern if he had to play how Ribery, Muller, Robben or even Mandzuic do. There is a reason Bayern are so dominant and it is that team balance and hardwork, to go along with their balance. Robben was on the bench until he learnt how to drop back and work hard.
Sounds like more than one cheap excuse in there. Hey don't hate me, that was one of your posts in this thread.
But Bayern faced the exact same problems in the CL final against Dortmund when they were outplayed for 30minutes? The fact that Ribery was part of the solution to overcome that pressure while Ronaldo continued being part of the problem in the games against Dortmund surely has to mean something, if we talk about how much support the players have?
Because Ribery is a midfielder and Ronaldo is a forward. We can't have the same yardstick for them. There are things one does and other doesn't and vice versa. Ribery's job is to provide support in creative terms and he gets a lot of support from midfield in terms of providing a good platform. Madrid's defensive work overall as a team is nowhere near from what we saw from Bayern and Barca and that is what wins you titles.
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