Cristiano Ronaldo

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Raoul said:
By that logic, Muller could be used as a convenient straw man to denigrate just about every great player. Example - Muller scored about 500 more goals than Maradona, averaged nearly a goal a game over his career, won the WC just as Maradona did, but also won three Champions Leagues, four Bundesliga titles and actually spent most of his career at a big club rather than bouncing around various leagues. In what way then is Maradona a greater player than Muller ? Sounds a bit ridiculous doesn't it.
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That logic is an extrapolation of your argument, is it not? You're the one talking about goals records as being a key factor which puts Ronaldo up there alongside Maradona and Pelé. I don't think goals records count for much without context - the quality of opposition (e.g. van Basten scored a lot less at Milan than Ronaldo at Madrid, but if you adjust for the relative defensive strength of the leagues it comes out pretty even), the trophies it contributed to, the consistency of scoring across multiple platforms (national, intercontinental, international) etc. Goal records on their own are a small part of it. Maradona, Cruyff, Pelé and the rest did this.

The Muller-Ronaldo comparison works because his contribution in big games is the same as Muller's - goals, and the odd "key pass". He doesn't control games, he doesn't change the flow of the game single-handedly when his team is up against it. Quite simply he doesn't elevate the performance of his team-mates and you can count the number of big games he has won on his own. I doubt you can find one big game of Ronaldo's that compares to Best in the '68 final. Even with us, his own attempt to be the hero in '09 just led to him being selfish and wasteful while Messi still managed to influence the game more despite hardly making a selfish move all game.
 
Brwned said:
That logic is an extrapolation of your argument, is it not? You're the one talking about goals records as being a key factor which puts Ronaldo up there alongside Maradona and Pelé. I don't think goals records count for much without context - the quality of opposition (e.g. van Basten scored a lot less at Milan than Ronaldo at Madrid, but if you adjust for the relative defensive strength of the leagues it comes out pretty even), the trophies it contributed to, the consistency of scoring across multiple platforms (national, intercontinental, international) etc. Goal records on their own are a small part of it.

The Muller-Ronaldo comparison works because his contribution in big games is the same as Muller's - goals, and the odd "key pass". He doesn't control games, he doesn't change the flow of the game single-handedly when his team is up against it, quite simply he doesn't elevate the performance of his team-mates.
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It was originally until I realized its easy to poke holes in just about any great player's accomplishments by comparing them to another good player who isn't necessarily held in the GOAT pantheon - Muller being the example in that one can selectively, yet reasonably compare his career to the likes of Maradona and Pele and not be able to differentiate them by a great deal other than by the usual subjective standards. At the end of the day, everything in these arguments is subjective.
 
Well of course the bulk of it is subjective, but even at that I don't see what argument you can provide for Ronaldo besides his completeness? With Maradona you can say he single-handedly won big games on his own, he dictated the play, he was an inspirational leader, he showed the capacity to win a title against the odds with a reasonably small club and knit together an unfashionable national team to take them to heights they would never have reached otherwise...what is there you can replace there for Ronaldo to suggest - in your subjective opinion - that he's on the same level? It's just goals and consistency, and even then his record for Portugal muddies the waters there a bit.
 
Raoul said:
:lol: Sizeable decline ? He's putting up better stats and has won everything except the CL (so far). You're not doing your argument any favors by making these ridiculous exaggerations.
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:lol: I have already provided stats against his argument but he thought posting smirk comment in reply without countering on stats is a better way to argue. Or continue offering even more bizzare opinions. '...Would not have won Ballon D'Or without Messi in any of those years'. That had me in splits. :lol:
 
The Man Himself said:
:lol: I have already provided stats against his argument but he thought posting smirk comment in reply without countering on stats is a better way to argue. Or continue offering even more bizzare opinions. '...Would not have won Ballon D'Or without Messi in any of those years'. That had me in splits. :lol:
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I've never even heard of you much less read one of your posts. What stats are you talking about ?
 
Balu said:
He's not the first superstar at Madrid and Madrid is also not the only Hollywood club out there. In 10/11 Ribery and Robben fought over who should take a freekick and then punched each other during the halftime break, the whole club was in meltdown, president vs manager was a public fight. The drama at the club was even worse than anything at Real Madrid since Ronaldo joined them.

All those excuses for him being let down by the club are just stupid, he's playing in the most expensive team of all time with managers in charge who have won countless trophies before. He also loves to be the superstar who expects the rest of the team to do the dirty work for him, so his attitude isn't really helping, just like Robben's attitude was a massive problem at Bayern (and he wasn't worth the trouble so he was benched). If he's worth his superstar status, then his goals need to carry the team to titles. Individual stats don't mean that much when they're not helping to overcome the problems. And yes, all these prima-donnas deserve part of Ronaldo's attention, because they allow him to improve his individual record with a freedom that no one else has in the game today. There really aren't any excuses for GOATs and if he stays at Real for 7-8 years and fails to win the CL and end Barca's dominance (for more than just a single season) while other teams in Europe continue to beat both teams, then it's not that special in comparison to the GOAT contenders.

Let's not forget there's not a single superhuman boogie team, that denies Ronaldo his success. Real was also beaten by Lyon, Bayern, Dortmund and should have been beaten by United and Barca lost to Inter, Chelsea and Bayern since Ronaldo joined.
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No, it is not those players who 'allow' him to improve his record. Quite the opposite. He does it inspite of the factions in that team. You want to see a player who is 'allowed' to improve his indivdual record by teammates? That's Messi. It is stupid and incredibly biased thing to say that Ronaldo is 'allowed' by Real Madrid players to achieve individual records.

You gave example of bayern in 2010-11. Well, what did they win? feck all. Ronaldo, while dealing with similar things in background produces superlative performances on pitch and record which only Messi has bettered.

Real were going out ar round of 16 stage for what 5-6 consecutive years till Ronaldo came? They have reached semis 3 consecutive times since then and it is because of Ronaldo mainly.

With no disrespect to players of yesteryears, that Eurpean cup format was easier compared to current one where teams often reached semis or finals by playing random teams on the way.
 
Raoul said:
I've never even heard of you much less read one of your posts. What stats are you talking about ?
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Regarding Ronaldo's contributions in big games. Somewhere on last page I think. In response to Fortitude, not you.
 
The Man Himself said:
No, it is not those players who 'allow' him to improve his record. Quite the opposite. He does it inspite of the factions in that team. You want to see a player who is 'allowed' to improve his indivdual record by teammates? That's Messi. It is stupid and incredibly biased thing to say that Ronaldo is 'allowed' by Real Madrid players to achieve individual records.

You gave example of bayern in 2010-11. Well, what did they win? feck all. Ronaldo, while dealing with similar things in background produces superlative performances on pitch and record which only Messi has bettered.

Real were going out ar round of 16 stage for what 5-6 consecutive years till Ronaldo came? They have reached semis 3 consecutive times since then and it is because of Ronaldo mainly.

With no disrespect to players of yesteryears, that Eurpean cup format was easier compared to current one where teams often reached semis or finals by playing random teams on the way.
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No, they also went out with Ronaldo in the round of 16 stage, it changed when Mourinho, Özil and Khedira arrived, one player for the lacking creativity and one for the dirtywork. Maybe it was easier before to win the European Cup, but the only top team Real beat in the CL knockout stages since Ronaldo joined was United and that was questionable at least.

09/10 they lost against Lyon
10/11 they beat Lyon and Tottenham before loosing to Barca
11/12 they beat CSKA and Nikosia before loosing to Bayern
12/13 they beat United and Galatasaray before loosing to Dortmund

Hardly impressive stuff, so I don't really get why it was such a difficult task to make the semifinals in comparison to the European Cup in the 70's and 80's.

The first part of your post is really strange, because it's so obvious that Ronaldo creates way less chances for himself in comparison to Messi, so how is he less dependent on his team mates? Also from 08-11 during Barca's peak Messi really was part of Guardiola's defensive concept and he did his fair share of pressing and tracking back, way more than Ronaldo at Real. The goals Ronaldo scored in the games against top teams were rarely brilliant ones, a lot of tap ins, headers and 1on1s with the keeper after great passes from his teammates. How is being allowed to wait upfront and score these type of goals comparable to Messi dropping deep and starting attacks that he finishes off himself? That doesn't make sense?

And the Bayern example was about a team overcoming problems with changes in the attitude of crucial players for the benefit of the team, not about what they achieved while they were fighting.
 
If Real had more competent defenders they would have won a CL by now. I've said this before, but you don't blame the bloke bagging you 50 goals a season when the rest of the team (strikers, defenders) is underperforming.

He's done enough to be labeled as the best player of his generation, bar Messi. Somehow this has become debatable because goals are overrated.
 
Balu said:
No, they also went out with Ronaldo in the round of 16 stage, it changed when Mourinho, Özil and Khedira arrived, one player for the lacking creativity and one for the dirtywork. Maybe it was easier before to win the European Cup, but the only top team Real beat in the CL knockout stages since Ronaldo joined was United and that was questionable at least.

09/10 they lost against Lyon
10/11 they beat Lyon and Tottenham before loosing to Barca
11/12 they beat CSKA and Nikosia before loosing to Bayern
12/13 they beat United and Galatasaray before loosing to Dortmund
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Who were the top teams Barcelona toppled during this period when Real had "easy" paths to the semifinals? Bayer Leverkusen? A depleted Bayern they thrashed 5-0 in 2008/09? Milan? If we're going to be picky, it can be argued that Barcelona have come up short 3 times against 2 organized teams in Inter and Chelsea, and got obliterated by Bayern last year.
 
adexkola said:
Who were the top teams Barcelona toppled during this period when Real had "easy" paths to the semifinals? Bayer Leverkusen? A depleted Bayern they thrashed 5-0 in 2008/09? Milan? If we're going to be picky, it can be argued that Barcelona have come up short 3 times against 2 organized teams in Inter and Chelsea, and got obliterated by Bayern last year.
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I don't know what the actual debate is here so I don't want to weigh in too heavily, but this is a very good point.
 
Balu said:
No, they also went out with Ronaldo in the round of 16 stage, it changed when Mourinho, Özil and Khedira arrived, one player for the lacking creativity and one for the dirtywork. Maybe it was easier before to win the European Cup, but the only top team Real beat in the CL knockout stages since Ronaldo joined was United and that was questionable at least.

09/10 they lost against Lyon
10/11 they beat Lyon and Tottenham before loosing to Barca
11/12 they beat CSKA and Nikosia before loosing to Bayern
12/13 they beat United and Galatasaray before loosing to Dortmund

Hardly impressive stuff, so I don't really get why it was such a difficult task to make the semifinals in comparison to the European Cup in the 70's and 80's.

The first part of your post is really strange, because it's so obvious that Ronaldo creates way less chances for himself in comparison to Messi, so how is he less dependent on his team mates? Also from 08-11 during Barca's peak Messi really was part of Guardiola's defensive concept and he did his fair share of pressing and tracking back, way more than Ronaldo at Real. The goals Ronaldo scored in the games against top teams were rarely brilliant ones, a lot of tap ins, headers and 1on1s with the keeper after great passes from his teammates. How is being allowed to wait upfront and score these type of goals comparable to Messi dropping deep and starting attacks that he finishes off himself? That doesn't make sense?

And the Bayern example was about a team overcoming problems with changes in the attitude of crucial players for the benefit of the team, not about what they achieved while they were fighting.
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You are forgetting that they had a tough group last year and Ronaldo did well in those games. Ronaldo scores many great goals in each season, not just tap ins and headers. You need to visit the compilation of his goals in each season for that.From 2010-2012, I have put on last page his goal scoring record which I have details about. 0.74 goal every big game. (not counting his assists). It will be better if 12-13 season is counted. Still, if one is hell bent on discrediting everything a player does, not much someone else can do. While we are on headers, get me better headed goals than his vs. United in Madrid. Messi scores a lot of tap ins and easy goals after team walks the ball into his path as well. I don't see that coming up anywhere. As far as defensive work, he does well while defending corners and set pieces.
wait upfront and score? :lol: This is funny. You really need to watch his goal compilations. Guess you mistakenly watched Inzaghi instead :p
 
adexkola said:
If Real had more competent defenders they would have won a CL by now. I've said this before, but you don't blame the bloke bagging you 50 goals a season when the rest of the team (strikers, defenders) is underperforming.

He's done enough to be labeled as the best player of his generation, bar Messi. Somehow this has become debatable because goals are overrated.
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Is it that strange that some people believe Xavi to be best player of his generation, bar Messi? He was Spain's best player in '08-'10 and he was arguably Barca's best player in their treble winning season. Without Messi Spain won 3 tournaments back-to-back so is it so out there to think that if there was no Messi Barcelona would still have been very successful between '08-'12 (i.e. before Xavi's decline) and Xavi would get more recognition as their best player?
 
adexkola said:
If Real had more competent defenders they would have won a CL by now. I've said this before, but you don't blame the bloke bagging you 50 goals a season when the rest of the team (strikers, defenders) is underperforming.

He's done enough to be labeled as the best player of his generation, bar Messi. Somehow this has become debatable because goals are overrated.
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This. It is mind boggling to see the length people go to discredit Ronaldo. Hypothetically, if we swap Messi and Ronaldo in teams keeping everything else same, I struggle to see how Real would have done any better. That's why to me, GOAT is dependent on many factors not just some perceptions which people try to hammer down others throats. Mind, I am not saying all Messi's success is because of Barca, in fact it is opposite majorly, but teamwork and common philosophy which is cultivated through academy helps him unlike Ronaldo at Madrid where he pretty much has to rely on himself only. For me, both are the GOATs from this generation.
 
adexkola said:
Who were the top teams Barcelona toppled during this period when Real had "easy" paths to the semifinals? Bayer Leverkusen? A depleted Bayern they thrashed 5-0 in 2008/09? Milan? If we're going to be picky, it can be argued that Barcelona have come up short 3 times against 2 organized teams in Inter and Chelsea, and got obliterated by Bayern last year.
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Strange post. I'm not the one saying it's much more difficult now to win the competition in comparison to the former decades and Barca won the trophy twice, beat United twice in finals, Real in a semi final and a PSG team that was still stronger than Lyon, Tottenham, CSKA, Nikosia or Galatasaray.
 
Brwned said:
Is it that strange that some people believe Xavi to be best player of his generation, bar Messi? He was Spain's best player in '08-'10 and he was arguably Barca's best player in their treble winning season. Without Messi Spain won 3 tournaments back-to-back so is it so out there to think that if there was no Messi Barcelona would still have been very successful between '08-'12 (i.e. before Xavi's decline) and Xavi would get more recognition as their best player?
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That's very debatable. Without Messi Barca wouldn't have been half as successful.

And yes, I do think it's strange that people hold Xavi at a higher level than Ronaldo.
 
Balu said:
Strange post. I'm not the one saying it's much more difficult now to win the competition in comparison to the former decades and Barca won the trophy twice, beat United twice in finals, Real in a semi final and a PSG team that was still stronger than Lyon, Tottenham, CSKA, Nikosia or Galatasaray.
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If we're going to discount 3 semifinal appearances in a row... what does that say about other teams?
 
adexkola said:
If we're going to discount 3 semifinal appearances in a row... what does that say about other teams?
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I'm not discounting anything. I was making the point that Real didn't face better teams than the great teams in the past on their way to those semi finals.
Here's the quote if you didn't read it.
The Man Himself said:
With no disrespect to players of yesteryears, that Eurpean cup format was easier compared to current one where teams often reached semis or finals by playing random teams on the way.
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How are Lyon, Tottenham, CSKA, Nikosia and Galatastary not random teams?
 
The Man Himself said:
You are forgetting that they had a tough group last year and Ronaldo did well in those games. Ronaldo scores many great goals in each season, not just tap ins and headers. You need to visit the compilation of his goals in each season for that.From 2010-2012, I have put on last page his goal scoring record which I have details about. 0.74 goal every big game. (not counting his assists). It will be better if 12-13 season is counted. Still, if one is hell bent on discrediting everything a player does, not much someone else can do. While we are on headers, get me better headed goals than his vs. United in Madrid. Messi scores a lot of tap ins and easy goals after team walks the ball into his path as well. I don't see that coming up anywhere. As far as defensive work, he does well while defending corners and set pieces.
wait upfront and score? :lol: This is funny. You really need to watch his goal compilations. Guess you mistakenly watched Inzaghi instead :p
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Did you read what I wrote? Show me his goals against top teams in the CL, in which he wasn't dependent on someone creating for him? You said he's less dependent on his team mates than Messi. Of course, his headers are great, but he still needs someone providing a cross for it, that's the whole point. I haven't said he doesn't score in big games.

The Man Himself said:
This. It is mind boggling to see the length people go to discredit Ronaldo. Hypothetically, if we swap Messi and Ronaldo in teams keeping everything else same, I struggle to see how Real would have done any better. That's why to me, GOAT is dependent on many factors not just some perceptions which people try to hammer down others throats. Mind, I am not saying all Messi's success is because of Barca, in fact it is opposite majorly, but teamwork and common philosophy which is cultivated through academy helps him unlike Ronaldo at Madrid where he pretty much has to rely on himself only. For me, both are the GOATs from this generation.
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Can you honestly see Ronaldo being part of a team like Barca 08-11? A team heavily relying on team work and high work rate in which no one was allowed to get the freedom Ronaldo has now (and Messi had in 11/12 and 12/13, which was also part of their problems and Martino is trying to change again this season). And no it's not only because of a deep lying philosophy cultivated through the academy, that can't be if Robben starts working incredibly hard in defense all of a sudden.
 
Balu said:
How are Lyon, Tottenham, CSKA, Nikosia and Galatastary not random teams?
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Real have faced Dortmund(4 times), Bayern, City, Juventus this year, Man United, Barcelona, Milan to name some in last 3 or so years. Please tell me now that all these are random teams. Along with Ajax(4 times or 6), Gala, Lyon and Spurs who were decent oppositions.
Compared with teams which Bayern faced on their way to 3 European Cups, tell me how the level of competition is same?
 
Balu said:
Can you honestly see Ronaldo being part of a team like Barca 08-11? A team heavily relying on team work and high work rate in which no one was allowed to get the freedom Ronaldo has now (and Messi had in 11/12 and 12/13, which was also part of their problems and Martino is trying to change again this season). And no it's not only because of a deep lying philosophy cultivated through the academy, that can't be if Robben starts working incredibly hard in defense all of a sudden.
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Yes, Ronaldo can easily be part of any team in the history of game who were greatly successful and they can still achieve the same if best player from that team is replaced by Ronaldo. (Obviously if that best player is attacking player, otherwise the most crucial forward player)
 
The Man Himself said:
Real have faced Dortmund(4 times), Bayern, City, Juventus this year, Man United, Barcelona, Milan to name some in last 3 or so years. Please tell me now that all these are random teams. Along with Ajax(4 times or 6), Gala, Lyon and Spurs who were decent oppositions.
Compared with teams which Bayern faced on their way to 3 European Cups, tell me how the level of competition is same?
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Have you seen the teams Bayern faced back then? Do you know how good the domestic champion in smaller leagues was in the 70's, before all the crazy money created an incredible huge gap between the leagues? Are you honestly comparing a CL group today with knockout stages? What do you know about the quality of the teammates of the great players of yesteryear in comparison to Ronaldo's today when Real is paying insane money for squad players, so that players can be rotated a lot?

You talked about reaching semi finals, so let's discount the teams Real faced in the semis, oh and Real hasn't even played Juventus yet :lol:.
 
The Man Himself said:
Yes, Ronaldo can easily be part of any team in the history of game who were greatly successful and they can still achieve the same if best player from that team is replaced by Ronaldo. (Obviously if that best player is attacking player, otherwise the most crucial forward player)
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Right now, I'd say replacing Ribery with Ronaldo at Bayern would weaken the team by completely destroying the balance in defense, midfield and attack, let alone if we're talking about truely great players of the past. That doesn't make Ribery a better player btw, just the way better fit for Bayern.
 
Balu said:
Have you seen the teams Bayern faced back then? Do you know how good the domestic champion in smaller leagues was in the 70's, before all the crazy money created an incredible huge gap between the leagues? Are you honestly comparing a CL group today with knockout stages? What do you know about the quality of the teammates of the great players of yesteryear in comparison to Ronaldo's today when Real is paying insane money for squad players, so that players can be rotated a lot?

You talked about reaching semi finals, so let's discount the teams Real faced in the semis, oh and Real hasn't even played Juventus yet :lol:.
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It is very convenient to brush aside saying, "because you didn't watch teams back then, I can talk whatever I want".... I will rest on facts and records of those teams. If you are going to hide behind argument of some random names were good teams back then, then you should stop short of calling Spurs, Lyon etc random teams. very funny that these are random teams but those whom Bayern defeated but aren't known to have been greatly successful were a great competition.
Group stage + knockout against big teams (so many of them due to money) >>>> knockouts with random teams till semis or sometimes till final.
 
Balu said:
Right now, I'd say replacing Ribery with Ronaldo at Bayern would weaken the team by completely destroying the balance in defense, midfield and attack, let alone if we're talking about truely great players of the past. That doesn't make Ribery a better player btw, just the way better fit for Bayern.
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Haha. OK. Your opinion, you obviously have right to have it your way. I obviously don't agree ;)
 
Bayern's system wouldn't allow for the free role Ronaldo has at Real. I've not watched many games under Guardiola, but the team was very disciplined going forward, never committing too much to the attack, midfielders covering for full backs out of position, etc. If Ronaldo went to Bayern, he wouldn't fit unless he adapted his game to fit into the system. The system is more important than any individual player, as Barcelona and Bayern have shown us.

Ronaldo's not stupid though, he would adapt to whatever was thrown at him.
 
Brwned said:
Is it that strange that some people believe Xavi to be best player of his generation, bar Messi? He was Spain's best player in '08-'10 and he was arguably Barca's best player in their treble winning season. Without Messi Spain won 3 tournaments back-to-back so is it so out there to think that if there was no Messi Barcelona would still have been very successful between '08-'12 (i.e. before Xavi's decline) and Xavi would get more recognition as their best player?
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Hmm, not sure about that. Xavi has provided the base on which Barcelona and Spain operate for the past 5-6 years, but other players (Messi, Villa for Spain) have provided the cutting edge. Barcelona would probably still break the possession records, but I don't think they would have won as many La Liga's and Champions Leagues. Chelsea, Inter and Bayern have demonstrated what Barcelona without a cutting edge is: incapable of scoring.
 
The Man Himself said:
It is very convenient to brush aside saying, "because you didn't watch teams back then, I can talk whatever I want".... I will rest on facts and records of those teams. If you are going to hide behind argument of some random names were good teams back then, then you should stop short of calling Spurs, Lyon etc random teams. very funny that these are random teams but those whom Bayern defeated but aren't known to have been greatly successful were a great competition.
Group stage + knockout against big teams (so many of them due to money) >>>> knockouts with random teams till semis or sometimes till final.
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I'm not brushing anything aside. It's just weird that you think you know how strong teams were back then, if you haven't watched them. I didn't know if you did, so I asked.
 
"He's a fantastic boy" :lol: feck me how time flies. The other day Ronaldo was the fantastic "boy", now he's in the prime, more of a "senior" figure in the dressing room etc.
 
Ronaldo's comments on Sepp Blatter's latest brainfart:

"This video shows clearly the respect and consideration that FIFA has for me, for my club and my country. Much is explained now. I wish Mr. Blatter health and a long life, with the certainty that he will continue to witness, as he deserves, the successes of his favourite teams and players."



Clearly.. much is explained how voting for awards is done.
 
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