Cristiano Ronaldo

[Fortitude]

I just find it ridiculous we're castigating a wide forward/winger for not being a midfielder, or playmaker.

Is anyone doing that? George Best wasn't a midfielder or a playmaker but he was renowned for having his very best games and performances against the very best teams and opponents and on the biggest stage available to him (being from a minnow nation) in the European Cup. His legacy is built off the back of the performances against the very best of the time catapulting him to international stardom and that is the running theme amongst the very best - in the biggest games against the best opposition, they delivered their best, most memorable performances. You can run through the list of names and see a thread that bonds them all together in that they made key games about them and their performance from their position. Ronaldo has very little on his CV that comes close to any of them in this regard and it is rightfully used against him in debates such as these because he shouldn't be absolved just because he is a United great who did things for us that would lead to objectivity in these debates being put to one side for him.

His inability to perform with Portugal (to date) is a black stain on his record,

It's a massive mark against him and Messi in these discussions. One that shouldn't be brushed under the carpet so readily.

however with club he's been extraordinary. I can't think of any player apart from Messi in recent years that has so consistent, as Ronaldo has been for Manchester United and Real Madrid.

He has scored lots of goals at a sensational rate, undoubtedly. But extraordinary, in this company would be leading his side to trophies with match defining performances first and foremost and goals second - nobody with any sense would look at Ronaldo in a lesser light for not scoring in, say, a CL final against the current Bayern Munich whilst being a constant thorn in their side and providing a performance for the ages that helps his side win the CL.

And I keep seeing this thing about consistency being thrown out, but does it ring true? Ronaldo always goes down with the ship as far as Real Madrid have been concerned in the CL - he never looks like the player they can turn to when the shit hits the fan and they're under the cosh against the best sides. Does that mean his standard drops or does it mean he is being consistent in falling away if those who are supposed to supply him are being outplayed? If it's the former, he is falling short of the standards of the greats and if it's the latter, he is not there to be counted when the chips are down in the way the greats tended to be. Either way, there's a gap to be bridged that will leave many who do value the players mentioned as the very best for what they have done and how they did it, underwhelmed, no matter how many more goals he wracks up between now and the end of his career.

I think it's fair to say if Ronaldo doesn't have many big games where he has performed under an intense level of pressure, then only Pele and Maradona eclipse this stringent criteria. I'd go listing all the games where he grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and put the result beyond doubt but it's just a waste of time.

You should be extensive and thorough in providing this list. Ronaldo's catalogue of key games and performances is really poor in the company of these all-time greats and most of them actually came when he was with us, which is going back a few years now.

 

[Raees]

I'd love to know how a 23 year old can no so much about players who retired long before they were born.

Its quite easy, go watch full length matches on the internet .. pretty easy to find, unless the fact I'm watching them now is 'cheating'. Whats more remarkable is that only recently one of the world's most unathletic footballers was also the greatest, Zinedine Zidane is the prime example that the so-called athleticism/superiority as a consquence of that, of modern football is very overrated. His class shone through despite not being able to run very fast, jump extremely high.. he was just a damn good footballer.

 

[Raees]

To broaden the discussion, basically no traditional no.9 is in the conversation for greatest ever??

Not really, you have to be an original Ronaldo/Pele type to merit inclusion. At the end of the day we've all played football here and the player who you usually look to in the side to provide structure within the game for your side and produce moments of magic when the chips are down is usually the playmaker, the unwritten leader of the side. Sometimes that player is the goalscorer too, but it is easy to sense who that player is.

C. Ronaldo does have that sense to him I feel, he has that gravitas which makes him a go to player.. the only issue is whether he is effective at being the fulcrum of the side as much as the other greats of the past, for me he falls a level below due to the quality of his decision making, but he's going the right way about it.. he's getting better at it but there's some brilliant players on the list he's going to have to do alot to displace.

 

[Brwned]

I agree that Müller, Yashin and Ronaldo are part of the Greatest of all time tier in their respective position. I'd still rate someone who does more than that a tier above if we compare players in general. Put Müller in Pele's shoes, he maybe could have matched his goalscoring rate (which is still a big maybe, imo), but he never could have played Pele's role in 1970, but that's what the team needed him to do to become the best international side of all time. The striker Pele wouldn't have been enough. With Müller instead of Pele, that side wouldn't have existed and that would be really sad. Why would you ignore that? That's what makes international football still so incredibly important. For a club side, you just buy the players you need to get the best out of your players. For the nationalteam the best players often don't play in their best position but in a position where it's best for their team and if they master that challenge, then they become contenders for that GOAT tier, that tier that isn't about position anymore.

Essentially this. As of yet Ronaldo's not shown that capacity to be the player Portugal needs him to be. The fact he's scored 2 goals in 10 knockout games in International tournaments (1 in Euro '04 and 1 in Euro '12) tells you he hasn't shown the ability to score when the team needs it, and he's certainly not been their go-to creative outlet at any point, so it seems pretty clear he's let his team down on the big stage there. That's what sets Garrincha apart from Ronaldo I guess.

People play down Pelé's "3 World Cups" achievement because they went on to win the World Cup in '62 with him barely making an impact which shows that it was just down to Brazil being stacked full of top players, but that's not entirely true. That win wouldn't have happened without Garrincha stepping up and winning key games on his own. Garrincha is known for being an old-fashioned out-and-out right winger, but when Pelé was kicked out of the tournament he changed his game to be the creative fulcrum of the side. Along with that he stepped up to score crucial goals when they needed him. He scored 5 World Cup goals in his career and 4 of them came in '62. The first two came in the quarter-final v England, the first and last in a 3-1 win. The second two game in the semi-final to put Brazil 2-0 up in a game they ultimately won 4-2.

The only players in the top two tiers that haven't shown this level of influence at international level are those who didn't have the opportunity to (e.g. Best because he played for a small national team or Di Stéfano because he was barred from the national team for moving to Europe)

Good point. Perhaps he should be, especially as he's also a WC winner.

I think if goalscoring records were as important as has been suggested then you'd have to have Muller in a tier above Ronaldo really. Scored in consecutive International tournament finals (Euro '72, WC '74), scored in consecutive European Cup finals ('73 & '74), scored over a goal a game at international level, scored a goal a game at European Cup level...

Best isnt on the list either, would you put Ronaldo is the same class as Georgie?

I wouldn't really know how to class Best to be honest. I personally think he's much like José Moreno in the sense that only people who saw him live can tell you of his stature in the game. It's often said that the only reason Di Stéfano is ranked above Moreno is because he's the one who dominated Europe and got that level of exposure. United obviously had that period of '66-'69 where they reached the European Cup semi-finals twice and won in '68 with plenty of starring performances from Best so it's not like he's lacking exposure in general. Those performances at that level do make him part of the discussion, it's just that he only played ~20 European Cup games in his entire career and never played in a major international tournament ad because of that there are some questions that I think only someone who is extremely familiar with football at that time can really know where he stands in these lists/tiers.

 

[The Man Himself]

Is anyone doing that? George Best wasn't a midfielder or a playmaker but he was renowned for having his very best games and performances against the very best teams and opponents and on the biggest stage available to him (being from a minnow nation) in the European Cup. His legacy is built off the back of the performances against the very best of the time catapulting him to international stardom and that is the running theme amongst the very best - in the biggest games against the best opposition, they delivered their best, most memorable performances. You can run through the list of names and see a thread that bonds them all together in that they made key games about them and their performance from their position. Ronaldo has very little on his CV that comes close to any of them in this regard and it is rightfully used against him in debates such as these because he shouldn't be absolved just because he is a United great who did things for us that would lead to objectivity in these debates being put to one side for him.

Wow. There is so much wrong with your posts! Ronaldo has never done it against big teams? He carried United to titles and consistently performed well in big matches. He scored in CL final. He holds the record for scoring in most consecutive number of El Clasicos and consecutive games at Camp Nou in Clasicos. He has won teams matches countless number of times in tricky situations.
From 2010-2012, for club and country, he has played 43 "big games", scoring 22 goals when his team/s scored 32 in those games. That is 74% of team goals. I am not counting his assists in here and yes he does provide assists in double digits every season, something which is easily overlooked.

You should be extensive and thorough in providing this list. Ronaldo's catalogue of key games and performances is really poor in the company of these all-time greats and most of them actually came when he was with us, which is going back a few years now.

See the stat above. He scored key goals vs us last season. Definitely big games. There are many more. You just need to keep your eyes open.

Ronaldo's trophy haul is absolutely nothing to write home about in such esteemed company. To date, he's behind the curve despite being in sides that should have done better. It's not the biggest stick he gets beaten with in debates such as these, but it is still a consideration.

Trophy haul is nothing to write home about? Comfortably more than Maradona and some other greats and he is far from done.

You call for objectivity? Instead of being so blind towards his achievements it will be better if you adopt a bit of 'objective' approach.

 

[Fortitude]

Well that's me told!

Thanks for your insightful post!

 

[Raoul]

I think if goalscoring records were as important as has been suggested then you'd have to have Muller in a tier above Ronaldo really. Scored in consecutive International tournament finals (Euro '72, WC '74), scored in consecutive European Cup finals ('73 & '74), scored over a goal a game at international level, scored a goal a game at European Cup level...

Scoring a lot of goals is a significant factor alongside winning major trophies. But its probably only half of the equation. The other half is completely subjective (how "dominant" was a player, the extent to which they could "influence" a given big match, their consistency playing at a top level relative to the quality of opposition etc).

 

[Raoul]

I don't know what bearing or value this is supposed to have in a discussion about him belonging in the most elite tiers football can provide?

It speaks to his quality. Perhaps comparing his "completeness" to that of other elite "GOAT" contenders would be helpful in providing a degree of contrast between them.

 

[Balu]

It speaks to his quality. Perhaps comparing his "completeness" to that of other elite "GOAT" contenders would be helpful in providing a degree of contrast between them.

What does completeness mean when we compare footballers? Is Ronaldo more complete than Maradona because he's a better athlete? Or is Maradona more complete because his vision, passing range and workrate are on a completely different level to Ronaldo? Is being better at heading the ball really of any importance in that comparison?

 

[Raoul]

What does completeness mean when we compare footballers? Is Ronaldo more complete than Maradona because he's a better athlete? Or is Maradona more complete because his vision, passing range and workrate are on a completely different level to Ronaldo? Is being better at heading the ball really of any importance in that comparison?

Its all completely subjective. Ronaldo isn't a good defender, nor is his particularly good at tracking back, but in terms of the attack, he's collectively the best in the world (spare Messi) both inside and outside the box and along both wings. Comparing him to players in past generations is tricky because the game was so different then. But for this generation, he's been utterly dominant, and deserves the credit for how he has played over the past 6-7 years and is likely to play for another 3-4. If he continues at this pace for a few more years, being consistently world class for a decade will be quite remarkable and yet more worthy of a legitimate discussion with the all time greats of the past.

 

[Balu]

Its all completely subjective. Ronaldo isn't a good defender, nor is his particularly good at tracking back, but in terms of the attack, he's collectively the best in the world (spare Messi) both inside and outside the box and along both wings. Comparing him to players in past generations is tricky because the game was so different then. But for this generation, he's been utterly dominant, and deserves the credit for how he has played over the past 6-7 years and is likely to play for another 3-4. If he continues at this pace for a few more years, being consistently world class for a decade will be quite remarkable and yet more worthy of a legitimate discussion with the all time greats of the past.

Well, you said you want to compare his completeness to the other GOAT contenders and called him arguably the most complete player ever before, so you need to have an idea what completeness means, what abilities are included and how important they are?

 

[Raoul]

Well, you said you want to compare his completeness to the other GOAT contenders and called him arguably the most complete player ever before, so you need to have an idea what completeness means, what abilities are included and how important they are?

Did I say ever ? If I did, I meant of his generation.

 

[Balu]

Maybe I'm wrong and misread it, then my bad.

 

[Fortitude]

Its all completely subjective. Ronaldo isn't a good defender, nor is his particularly good at tracking back, but in terms of the attack, he's collectively the best in the world (spare Messi) both inside and outside the box and along both wings. Comparing him to players in past generations is tricky because the game was so different then. But for this generation, he's been utterly dominant, and deserves the credit for how he has played over the past 6-7 years and is likely to play for another 3-4. If he continues at this pace for a few more years, being consistently world class for a decade will be quite remarkable and yet more worthy of a legitimate discussion with the all time greats of the past.

If Real Madrid continue to do nothing in the CL and Ronaldo's Portugal (and Ronaldo) continu(ing)e to be absolutely anonymous, whilst we assume that Ronaldo maintains his admittedly superb GPG ratio, will that be used for or against him in future discussions? i.e. if we simply extrapolate along the same lines for the next 3-5yrs, does that go for or against the player.

Consistency in all areas is not necessarily a good thing if it amounts to more of the status quo and nothing of 'value' when compared and contrasted with true greats, don't you think?

For me personally, and I'm sure some others, the devastating and dynamic Ronaldo of '06-'07 with 20 something goals and 20 something assists who was massively difficult to contain irrespective of whether he scored or not was the type of player who would be associated with the names mentioned by default and certainly a shoo-in any greatest winger of all-time discussion, at the very least. I believe Ronaldo's pursuit of - and tunnel vision for - goals has left him with an overall game that is underdeveloped compared to what it was in the aforementioned season and that has cost him when it comes to the biggest games where if he doesn't score, he also doesn't leave much of a mark on the game. It's almost the polar opposite of what you want from an all-time great where first and foremost, you expect a stellar performance where if they so happen to score as well, it's more of a bonus than the crux of what they're about.

 

[The Man Himself]

Ronaldo's goals and assists in 2010-11, 11-12 and 12-13 for both club and country (number of games, sub appearances included, in bracket): 56-16(65), 67-16(64), 62-14(73). In 2013-14: 18-2(16) already.
Ronaldo's goals and assists in 06-07, 07-08, 08-09: 26-20(63), 43-8(51), 35-9(73).

It is plain and clear to see the Ronaldo of 2010 onwards is head and shoulders above the one of 2006-07. He has more than doubled his tally of goals while maintaining same level of assists. I don't know how can someone say that he has let go other aspects of his game go for goals. Those who have kept their eyes open, it is clear as daylight to see that he is involved in almost every attack of Madrid and goals. What he does at Real Madrid is inspite of the politics and soap opera that is Madrid and not because it is Madrid and because of players. At United he was held in same regard like Messi at Barca and players were happy to let him be the focus of attention and do their own things without fuss. At Madrid, it is full of prima-donnas who all want the attention which Ronaldo gets. At least some part of it. I think if he would have stayed here, we would have won another CL and he another Ballon D'Or. Still, definitely a GOAT when he is done. In fact, he is already.

 

[Balu]

He's not the first superstar at Madrid and Madrid is also not the only Hollywood club out there. In 10/11 Ribery and Robben fought over who should take a freekick and then punched each other during the halftime break, the whole club was in meltdown, president vs manager was a public fight. The drama at the club was even worse than anything at Real Madrid since Ronaldo joined them.

All those excuses for him being let down by the club are just stupid, he's playing in the most expensive team of all time with managers in charge who have won countless trophies before. He also loves to be the superstar who expects the rest of the team to do the dirty work for him, so his attitude isn't really helping, just like Robben's attitude was a massive problem at Bayern (and he wasn't worth the trouble so he was benched). If he's worth his superstar status, then his goals need to carry the team to titles. Individual stats don't mean that much when they're not helping to overcome the problems. And yes, all these prima-donnas deserve part of Ronaldo's attention, because they allow him to improve his individual record with a freedom that no one else has in the game today. There really aren't any excuses for GOATs and if he stays at Real for 7-8 years and fails to win the CL and end Barca's dominance (for more than just a single season) while other teams in Europe continue to beat both teams, then it's not that special in comparison to the GOAT contenders.

Let's not forget there's not a single superhuman boogie team, that denies Ronaldo his success. Real was also beaten by Lyon, Bayern, Dortmund and should have been beaten by United and Barca lost to Inter, Chelsea and Bayern since Ronaldo joined.

 

[Balu]

By the way I believe, Real signing Bale is a great chance for Ronaldo to get closer to that GOAT tier, as strange as it sounds. If Ronaldo changes his game in a way that helps Bale and Isco to become an important part of the team, even if it means that he scores way less than before, maybe even less than Bale, he's making a huge step towards those all time greats. If Ronaldo continues to play like he did in the last years and Bale becomes the biggest flop of all time while Real are still not getting closer to winning the CL or the league, he's not getting closer. Isco and Bale are both more direct players than Özil and di Maria, they need to get closer to the goal and be more often in goal scoring positions than the other two. Ronaldo has a great chance here to make up for Real's questionable transfers by doing what for example Garrincha did in 62, what all the GOATs did at one point in their career.

 

[Brwned]

Scoring a lot of goals is a significant factor alongside winning major trophies. But its probably only half of the equation. The other half is completely subjective (how "dominant" was a player, the extent to which they could "influence" a given big match, their consistency playing at a top level relative to the quality of opposition etc).

That's the thing though, in what area can Ronaldo claim to be better than Muller besides being a more "complete" player? Less titles, less big-game goals, if you look at club and international level combined he's less consistent...what else is there? That completeness doesn't seem to help him influence big games to a greater degree, it doesn't help him score more goals, it doesn't help his team win more titles, it doesn't make him a player that dominates teams...

 

[Raoul]

That's the thing though, in what area can Ronaldo claim to be better than Muller besides being a more "complete" player? Less titles, less big-game goals, if you look at club and international level combined he's less consistent...what else is there? That completeness doesn't seem to help him influence big games to a greater degree, it doesn't help him score more goals, it doesn't help his team win more titles, it doesn't make him a player that dominates teams...

By that logic, Muller could be used as a convenient straw man to denigrate just about every great player. Example - Muller scored about 500 more goals than Maradona, averaged nearly a goal a game over his career, won the WC just as Maradona did, but also won three Champions Leagues, four Bundesliga titles and actually spent most of his career at a big club rather than bouncing around various leagues. In what way then is Maradona a greater player than Muller ? Sounds a bit ridiculous doesn't it.

 

[Fortitude]

It's ironic up to this point in time that moving away from United (and a potential team for the ages) is harming Ronaldo's legacy rather than aiding it.

It's not an exaggeration to say United were on the precipice of turning themselves into a wonder team at the time, and if that side had stayed together, we would've surely contested more CL's with Barcelona and possibly even on to Bayern Munich given the ages of Ronaldo and Rooney, which in turn would have given Ronaldo the biggest club stage to perform upon on a yearly basis (I see no reason why we wouldn't have gone on a run of CL finals akin to Juventus of the 90's) and more chances to stake his claim amongst the elite than he's had at RM, who, with him, have been pitiful in the very same competition since he got there, and furthermore, his performances at the business end of that competition are nowhere near what they were for us, so isn't just about them here as he's taken a dip as well.

 

[Raoul]

It's ironic up to this point in time that moving away from United (and a potential team for the ages) is harming Ronaldo's legacy rather than aiding it.

It's not an exaggeration to say United were on the precipice of turning themselves into a wonder team at the time, and if that side had stayed together, we would've surely contested more CL's with Barcelona and possibly even on to Bayern Munich given the ages of Ronaldo and Rooney, which in turn would have given Ronaldo the biggest club stage to perform upon on a yearly basis (I see no reason why we wouldn't have gone on a run of CL finals akin to Juventus of the 90's) and more chances to stake his claim amongst the elite than he's had at RM, who, with him, have been pitiful in the very same competition since he got there, and furthermore, his performances at the business end of that competition are nowhere near what they were for us, so isn't just about them here as he's taken a dip as well.

Sounds a bit rose tinted to me. Almost like saying Zidane's move from Juventus to Madrid harmed his legacy. I'd imagine most fans without a dog in the fight would say his legacy will be more affixed to Madrid than United by the time he retires, just likes Zidane's is now.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Just counting how many assists he has a lazy way of saying he is creative. He plays with good players they will score as a result of his passes but Ronaldo is not particularly creative neither does he have great vision. The reason Muller can be used to beat Ronaldo with a stick but not Maradone, is because Maradona CARRIED teams to big trophies with his goals, creativity and his big game nous. Ronaldo is predominantly a goalscorer who is better compared to other goalscorers like Muller. Ronaldo does not have many CLASSIC big games I can remember. He will always get his goals but what are his best big game performances??? He was poor last season in big games in Europe DESPITE scoring in them. Take his performances against Dortmund or even us as an example of a typical Ronaldo big game in my memory. He is found wanting a lot.

 

[Fortitude]

Sounds a bit rose tinted to me. Almost like saying Zidane's move from Juventus to Madrid harmed his legacy. I'd imagine most fans without a dog in the fight would say his legacy will be more affixed to Madrid than United by the time he retires, just likes Zidane's is now.

Why rose-tinted? We'd built a great team revolving around he and Rooney that had gotten to back-to-back CL finals, winning one and losing the other with Ronaldo having a key role in both and both players still developing their games. A lot of things were in place for us to continue the trend especially as a host of other teams were declining during the rise of Barcelona.

As for Zidane, you're seemingly missing my point, as Zidane had success at Real Madrid and some of his performances for them, and especially the goal he scored in the final of the CL against Leverkusen actually propelled him and his legacy forward, not backward.

In terms of career definition, it is a no-brainer to say his time here is more legacy-defining than his time at RM has been irrespective of the goals there: He won WPOTY here for a reason, and should have won it the season before he did, too.

 

[Raoul]

Why rose-tinted? We'd built a great team revolving around he and Rooney that had gotten to back-to-back CL finals, winning one and losing the other with Ronaldo having a key role in both and both players still developing their games. A lot of things were in place for us to continue the trend especially as a host of other teams were declining during the rise of Barcelona.

As for Zidane, you're seemingly missing my point, as Zidane had success at Real Madrid and some of his performances for them, and especially the goal he scored in the final of the CL against Leverkusen actually propelled him and his legacy forward, not backward.

In terms of career definition, it is a no-brainer to say his time here is more legacy-defining than his time at RM has been irrespective of the goals there: He won WPOTY here for a reason, and should have won it the season before he did, too.

Why is it necessarily a no brainer ? The World Player award he won came before Messi's full ascent to the top and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest Ronaldo would have won World Player in every year he has played for Madrid if not for Messi. And as for the Zidane comparison; much like Ronaldo, he won the bulk of his career honors before arriving at Madrid and yet is more closely affiliated with Madrid for a variety of reasons. Ronaldo, by the time he retires, is likely to have spent about a decade at Madrid and will almost certainly be more closely affiliated with Madrid than United.

 

[Fortitude]

Why is it necessarily a no brainer ? The World Player award he won came before Messi's full ascent to the top and it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest Ronaldo would have won World Player in every year he has played for Madrid if not for Messi. And as for the Zidane comparison; must like Ronaldo, he won the bulk of his career honors before arriving at Madrid and yet is more closely affiliated with Madrid for a variety of reasons. Ronaldo, by the time he retires, is likely to have spent about a decade at Madrid and will almost certainly be more closely affiliated with Madrid than United.

Ronaldo has done nothing in a RM shirt that would warrant WPOTY status, so I very much doubt if Messi wasn't around it would be Ronaldo's title as opposed to the player who helped his side to glory on the biggest stages in the club game with defining performances, as he had on our CL runs. He has nothing of the kind for RM, which rules him out by default.

If Ronaldo continues to win nothing of note and do little in the CL when the big games begin, I very much doubt he'll be remembered as a RM player over a United one when he calls it a day because all his glory will be affixed to where he attained it, which would be his old club. Zidane wouldn't be remembered as he is without his performances in the CL for RM and that's the difference between the two and that volley caps it all off.

 

[Raoul]

Ronaldo has done nothing in a RM shirt that would warrant WPOTY status, so I very much doubt if Messi wasn't around it would be Ronaldo's title as opposed to the player who helped his side to glory on the biggest stages in the club game with defining performances, as he had on our CL runs. He has nothing of the kind for RM, which rules him out by default.

If Ronaldo continues to win nothing of note and do little in the CL when the big games begin, I very much doubt he'll be remembered as a RM player over a United one when he calls it a day because all his glory will be affixed to where he attained it, which would be his old club. Zidane wouldn't be remembered as he is without his performances in the CL for RM and that's the difference between the two and that volley caps it all off.

Saying he's done nothing is a bit ridiculous. Its widely acknowledged he's been a couple of paces behind Messi as the best footballer in the world and he would have won the award most years since he left United if not for Messi. As for your 2nd paragraph, irrespective of the volley in the CL finals, the fact remains that a majority of Zidane's career accolades happened during his time at Juventus (including two WPOTY awards, the World and Euro cups), and yet most don't remember him as a Juve player as much as associate him with Madrid. My original point was that Ronaldo is likely to end up being perceived similarly - even if he doesn't win as many trophies with Madrid.

 

[Fortitude]

Saying he's done nothing is a bit ridiculous. Its widely acknowledged he's been a couple of paces behind Messi as the best footballer in the world and he would have won the award most years since he left United if not for Messi. As for your 2nd paragraph, irrespective of the volley in the CL finals, the fact remains that a majority of Zidane's career accolades happened during his time at Juventus (including two WPOTY awards, the World and Euro cups), and yet most don't remember him as a Juve player as much as associate him with Madrid. My original point was that Ronaldo is likely to end up being perceived similarly - even if he doesn't win as many trophies with Madrid.

Scoring lots and lots of goals in La Liga against sides with tiny percentage of your budget isn't that noteworthy in the grand scheme of things, and if you consider how great the achievement of having a near 1:1 scoring ratio is, don't you find it odd how little the feat is revered in footballing circles or amongst the media? Compared to how they rave about performances in the CL, where all the big guns play, it's certainly doesn't seem to be particularly valued at any rate.

I don't know what leads you to believe Ronaldo would win the award if not for Messi, based on what? Messi's accolades come more from his performances in the CL than La Liga, and that's where the two have very disparate paths these days and why nobody doubts Messi in club games even if he does get stick for his country.

I don't see a single year since he left where he'd be my number one pick for WPOTY with Messi removed from the equation. There has been a big dip in his performances at the K.O stages of the CL since he left here, which goes against him, for me.

Regarding Zidane, even if we remove his performances on the pitch, he still went up a level in relation to world attention and was promoted as such when he moved from Juventus to Real Madrid. There isn't the same leap in attention or status going from United to Madrid. Effectively, they took our shining light and just put a different shirt on a ready-made and promoted brand, so that plays a part as well.

 

[Red For Ever]

I wouldn't really know how to class Best to be honest. I personally think he's much like José Moreno in the sense that only people who saw him live can tell you of his stature in the game. It's often said that the only reason Di Stéfano is ranked above Moreno is because he's the one who dominated Europe and got that level of exposure. United obviously had that period of '66-'69 where they reached the European Cup semi-finals twice and won in '68 with plenty of starring performances from Best so it's not like he's lacking exposure in general. Those performances at that level do make him part of the discussion, it's just that he only played ~20 European Cup games in his entire career and never played in a major international tournament ad because of that there are some questions that I think only someone who is extremely familiar with football at that time can really know where he stands in these lists/tiers.[/quote]

I was lucky enough to see Best and Ronaldo play live many times, at United Best had great players around him, but for his country that was not the case, despite that a team with Best in always had a chance, even in his later days, and when he had the ball at his feet, you stopped breathing as you waited for something special, even when his fitness was questionable, he could always create a bit of magic. Ronaldo is currently one of the worlds great players, and has probably already achieved more than Best did in terms of money, trophies etc, and is certainly more professional in his approach to his game, but for that spell when Best was not influenced by drink and women, he was better than Ronaldo will ever be, however by the time he is 35 Ronaldo will certainly be able to look back and point to lots of reasons why his overall career was much better than Best's. in the end Best let himself and United down, but as he told me to my face years later, it was something in him he could not control, he wished he could change things, It demonstrated to me unless you have been an alcoholic or drug addict it is difficult to comprehend, i certainly couldn't at the time.

Watching Ronaldo play for United was a fantastic time, but it does not match watching Best play for United.

When you think of the lifestyle of drink, clubs and women that effected best, you can only wonder what might have been.

Maybe its romanticism and old age on my part, I loved watching Ronaldo in a United shirt ( diving aside ) but I will remember Best with more affection, and as the better player, albeit for only a short spell.

If I had to choose between Ronaldo or Best in the prime of their careers, it is no contest, if only .....

 

[Balu]

Scoring lots and lots of goals in La Liga against sides with tiny percentage of your budget isn't that noteworthy in the grand scheme of things, and if you consider how great the achievement of having a near 1:1 scoring ratio is, don't you find it odd how little the feat is revered in footballing circles or amongst the media? Compared to how they rave about performances in the CL, where all the big guns play, it's certainly doesn't seem to be particularly valued at any rate.

I don't know what leads you to believe Ronaldo would win the award if not for Messi, based on what? Messi's accolades come more from his performances in the CL than La Liga, and that's where the two have very disparate paths these days and why nobody doubts Messi in club games even if he does get stick for his country.

I don't see a single year since he left where he'd be my number one pick for WPOTY with Messi removed from the equation. There has been a big dip in his performances at the K.O stages of the CL since he left here, which goes against him, for me.

Regarding Zidane, even if we remove his performances on the pitch, he still went up a level in relation to world attention and was promoted as such when he moved from Juventus to Real Madrid. There isn't the same leap in attention or status going from United to Madrid. Effectively, they took our shining light and just put a different shirt on a ready-made and promoted brand, so that plays a part as well.

10/11 and 11/12. He was brilliant in Real's title winning season and only Iniesta for his Euro performance could be considered a second possible option in 2012. In 10/11 Real were imo easily the second best team in the world, they just faced a basically flawless Barca at their peak in the league and the CL, but still managed to deny them a treble by beating them in the cup final with a Ronaldo goal in extra time.

 

[Fortitude]

10/11 and 11/12. He was brilliant in Real's title winning season and only Iniesta for his Euro performance could be considered a second possible option in 2012. In 10/11 Real were imo easily the second best team in the world, they just faced a basically flawless Barca at their peak in the league and the CL, but still managed to deny them a treble by beating them in the cup final with a Ronaldo goal in extra time.

Xavi and Iniesta would go before him, for me. They were key components in what made Barca, flawless, as you put it.

 

[Raoul]

Scoring lots and lots of goals in La Liga against sides with tiny percentage of your budget isn't that noteworthy in the grand scheme of things, and if you consider how great the achievement of having a near 1:1 scoring ratio is, don't you find it odd how little the feat is revered in footballing circles or amongst the media? Compared to how they rave about performances in the CL, where all the big guns play, it's certainly doesn't seem to be particularly valued at any rate.

I don't know what leads you to believe Ronaldo would win the award if not for Messi, based on what? Messi's accolades come more from his performances in the CL than La Liga, and that's where the two have very disparate paths these days and why nobody doubts Messi in club games even if he does get stick for his country.

I don't see a single year since he left where he'd be my number one pick for WPOTY with Messi removed from the equation. There has been a big dip in his performances at the K.O stages of the CL since he left here, which goes against him, for me.

Regarding Zidane, even if we remove his performances on the pitch, he still went up a level in relation to world attention and was promoted as such when he moved from Juventus to Real Madrid. There isn't the same leap in attention or status going from United to Madrid. Effectively, they took our shining light and just put a different shirt on a ready-made and promoted brand, so that plays a part as well.

Scoring a lot of goals or winning a big trophy are obviously all factors, as are perceptions of how good someone is at football, irrespective of their team accolades. Are you contesting that Ronaldo hasn't been the 2nd best footballer in the world over the past 4-5 years ? If so, that would put you at odds with most fans, who in case you've missed it, have been ensconced in endless Ronaldo v Messi debates in recent years. Removing Messi from the discussion, if you don't see a single year when Ronaldo would have been the World Player of the Year then that would put you in the extreme minority of people who think that, including those who vote on the award, where excepting Spain's 2010 win where Xavi and Iniesta placed, have had Ronaldo come in 2nd each year.

Back to your original argument - If you would have said Ronaldo was more creative and more entertaining at United, and simply left it at that - then you would have had a bit more solid ground to stand on rather than trying to suggest he couldn't possibly be as good at Madrid as he was at United. The facts are that his chapter at Madrid is far from finished and if he continues at this pace, the bulk of his career would have been spent as a Real Madrid player, and he will be appropriately remembered as such.

 

[Nighteyes]

Nah, not really. Messi's brilliance makes Xavi and Iniesta look better than they actually are. Ronaldo is better than both of them and would have deservedly won the WPOTY awards.

 

[Balu]

@Fortitude
I don't know, that Barca team in 10/11 was really built around Messi, different to the 08/09 team. Of course both were still brilliant, but I thought Ronaldo's season in 10/11 was really special. It's all speculation anyway, because as great as Xavi and Iniesta were during Barca's peak, if we take Messi out of the team, it would have been a completely different team, maybe Ibrahimovic would have won a Ballon d'Or .

@Red For Ever
Great post, it's always brilliant to read about, how someone who actually saw those former greats play live, sees them in comparison to player's today. It's amazing that you met him and talked with him.

 

[Fortitude]

Scoring a lot of goals or winning a big trophy are obviously all factors, as are perceptions of how good someone is at football, irrespective of their team accolades. Are you contesting that Ronaldo hasn't been the 2nd best footballer in the world over the past 4-5 years ? If so, that would put you at odds with most fans, who in case you've missed it, have been ensconced in endless Ronaldo v Messi debates in recent years. Removing Messi from the discussion, if you don't see a single year when Ronaldo would have been the World Player of the Year then that would put you in the extreme minority of people who think that, including those who vote on the award, where excepting Spain's 2010 win where Xavi and Iniesta placed, have had Ronaldo come in 2nd each year.

Xavi has been made a footnote even though he should have won at least one WPOTY title, but that's the tilt, isn't it? As time goes by and revisionism is ramped up, only Messi and Ronaldo will have existed as far as that five-year stretch goes.

Back to your original argument - If you would have said Ronaldo was more creative and more entertaining at United, and simply left it at that - then you would have had a bit more solid ground to stand on rather than trying to suggest he couldn't possibly be as good at Madrid as he was at United.

I've asked you a lot of questions in my posts, which you've declined to answer, which is fair enough, but I have given reasons for everything I have said and you seem to selectively disregard them as you see fit - I mean, you haven't addressed the CL issue once, do you not see this as sizeable decline in performance and achievement for Ronaldo since he got to RM? If not, then why not?

Ronaldo is not going to win WPOTY accolades off the back of scoring a gazillion goals in La Liga, whilst doing nothing of note on the bigger stages presented to him, do you believe this to be an incorrect statement?

The facts are that his chapter at Madrid is far from finished and if he continues at this pace, the bulk of his career would have been spent as a Real Madrid player, and he will be appropriately remembered as such.

As someone who spent the bulk of their career at Madrid? Or someone who was at his best and most successful at Manchester United?

 

[Raoul]

Xavi has been made a footnote even though he should have won at least one WPOTY title, but that's the tilt, isn't it? As time goes by and revisionism is ramped up, only Messi and Ronaldo will have existed as far as that five-year stretch goes.


I've asked you a lot of questions in my posts, which you've declined to answer, which is fair enough, but I have given reasons for everything I have said and you seem to selectively disregard them as you see fit - I mean, you haven't addressed the CL issue once, do you not see this as sizeable decline in performance and achievement for Ronaldo since he got to RM? If not, then why not?

Ronaldo is not going to win WPOTY accolades off the back of scoring a gazillion goals in La Liga, whilst doing nothing of note on the bigger stages presented to him, do you believe this to be an incorrect statement?



As someone who spent the bulk of their career at Madrid? Or someone who was at his best and most successful at Manchester United?

Sizeable decline ? He's putting up better stats and has won everything except the CL (so far). You're not doing your argument any favors by making these ridiculous exaggerations.

 

[Fortitude]

@Fortitude
I don't know, that Barca team in 10/11 was really built around Messi, different to the 08/09 team. Of course both were still brilliant, but I thought Ronaldo's season in 10/11 was really special. It's all speculation anyway, because as great as Xavi and Iniesta were during Barca's peak, if we take Messi out of the team, it would have been a completely different team, maybe Ibrahimovic would have won a Ballon d'Or .

For me, Xavi does not get anywhere near his due for being the chieftain of that side. It was his brilliance and ability to control and dictate games that enabled the others to play and to do it so well for so long is an incredible feat.

As soon as WPOTY-level discussion is brought into the mix, I think performances across the board have to be considered and the league is the smallest of those lights. Ronaldo would have had to do a lot more in the CL and internationally for me to put him above the other two I mentioned. I do agree with you in respect to him having done very well in 10/11, but very well is the bare minimum at such a level, is it not?

 

[Fortitude]

Sizeable decline ? He's putting up better stats and has won everything except the CL (so far). You're not doing your argument any favors by making these ridiculous exaggerations.

You're not answering my questions. And now you're resorting to laughing smilies?

Better stats, eh?

In the CL QF's, SF's and finals? I think not...

And let's put what you're saying into context; he's won one La Liga title in four years and... a Copa Del Ray, whilst doing nothing on the international scene.

What am I making ridiculous exaggerations about?

 

[Gio]

Nah, not really. Messi's brilliance makes Xavi and Iniesta look better than they actually are. Ronaldo is better than both of them and would have deservedly won the WPOTY awards.

I'm not sure about that. Xavi and Iniesta have been just as influential in international football over the last 5 years as they have for Barcelona. Yes Spain don't have an attacker of Messi's calibre but their midfield dominance has been as pronounced if not more so in 2008, 2010 and 2012. In fact Xavi's best season, and probably the best season of any midfielder in the last generation or so, was in 2008/09 when Messi was playing primarily off the right wing and others were sharing the attacking duties.

 

[Nighteyes]

I'm not sure about that. Xavi and Iniesta have been just as influential in international football over the last 5 years as they have for Barcelona. Yes Spain don't have an attacker of Messi's calibre but their midfield dominance has been as pronounced if not more so in 2008, 2010 and 2012. In fact Xavi's best season, and probably the best season of any midfielder in the last generation or so, was in 2008/09 when Messi was playing primarily off the right wing and others were sharing the attacking duties.

Midfield dominance has been pronounced but a lot of that has become more defensive in nature especially with the decline of both Torres and Villa. Not denying their quality but imo it's inarguable that Messi's presence rather elevates their status. Ronaldo is definitely ahead of both them

 

[Balu]

In 08/09 Barca played way more direct, I don't think possession was that much about defense back then, same in 08 with Spain, when they were far more entertaining than in 2010, when Villa was still at his peak. I agree with Gio, Xavi in 08/09 had the best season any midfielder had in a long time, his range of passing and the way he dictated the tempo of Barca's game was incredible. The number of assists he provided from central midfield was insane.