Cristiano Ronaldo - Much Ado About Al Nassr

[Olril18]

Not really. He never used to refer to him as the “GOAT” in the manner he’s doing now. As someone else noted, it’s basically his backhanded way of saying he’s better than the other player whom HE brought up (yes that’s right, it was him who brought Messi’s name into it) but without actually saying it. That’s why it makes me chuckle, because even though he’s pretending to be ignorant we all know what he’s doing when he does this “the GOAT scores again” routine.

I merely said it makes me chuckle, then when he challenged me and a couple of others I elaborated on why it makes me chuckle. That’s all. And again, it makes sense that there’s some general animosity toward the player anyway because it’s a United forum and he treated the club and fans terribly before he departed. Anyway I apologise to everyone for even remarking on it, I’ve been reading the forum long enough so I should have known better

your post is quite tragic and pathetic. What’s wrong in a Ronaldo fan boy declaring him as ‘GOAT’ and why should you have problem with this?
I’m not a Ronaldo fan boy in any way but the hatred for this guy by Messi fans is something else and is often one sided. Most Ronaldo fans I have seen at least often have respect for Messi in this discussion,the otherwise are Messi fans who are often insecured and abusive towards Ronaldo.

 

[LM7]

The reason it makes no sense is it’s funny how a guy who won 5 Balon D Or (at one point tied with Messi) in what in your opinion is “Messi’s Era and who out performed Messi in multiple season and in multiple records is left being comparter
To guys ranked 5-10 (with all due respect to those guys) while Messi is top 3. The math in that logic is not mathing.

In fact a overwhelming majority would call the last 20 years of football the Messi/Ronaldo era. Similarly in 50 years or even now it is impossible to talk about Messi or Ronaldo’: career without mentioning the other on the same sentence. Something even Messi himself has said.

So the mental gymnastics done to try to make sense of how Two guys who were neck and neck a majority of their careers are now seamlessly so far apart in ranking according to messi fans.

In fact the answer is easy, they hate the fact that people consider Ronaldo to be better OR mention him in the same breath.

Yet it’s funny that it you use a beautiful little search engine named google or watch any video on YouTube a OVERWHELMING majority have Ronaldo Top4 all time (various videos and articles have him anywhere from 1-4 many have Messi #1 as well)

Go figure.

Like I said the math is not mathing with the logic

It’s like comparing two racers in F1 being side by side all 8 laps and then at the end comparing the second places racer to the guys who finished 5-10.

The logic makes no sense.

You do not seem to understand football and you think it's all about stats. There was once a time when people enjoyed watching a zico, a Jay-jay Okocha or a ronaldinho even though they didn't score as much, especially Okocha.

For midfielders-attackers, these are the main categories: Goal scoring, Assists, Playmakers, Dribbling. Can you objectively name the top 3 players in history in each of these categories?

 

[Matriac]

No. There are three. No player who has never scored a goal or registered an assist in the knockout rounds of the World Cup after playing in 5 tournaments can possibly be the greatest player of all time.

Not particularly a Ronaldo fan, especially due to the last few years actions. And not to drag Portugal as a team, they are decent. But it can hardly be fair to judge a players status based on the exploits of his international team?

Out of those 5 tournaments, in 1 they didn't make it out of the group stage, in 2 they exited Round of 16.
Plus something can be said for their ability to create chances for him.

If we stick to this criteria then in 10-15 years, even if Haaland scores double the goals Ronaldo has, then he has no chance since Norway hasn't qualified for a WC/EC for more than 20 years at this point. With this generation they'll hopefully be back in there, but hardly expect them to go deep in the tournaments.

 

[Olril18]

Let me tell you this, the great majority of the football world does not consider him a GOAT, it should be quite obvious after the WC but I still see desperate attempts to place him next to Pele, Maradona and Messi here. But, this is an improvement as we had Portuguese posters here in the past that would place him above Pele and Maradona..



sorry to tell you, most football fans (even many Portuguese) will call this BS. and no, you are not objective my friend, easy to see from your nickname..

You can only speak for yourself though

 

[red.knight]

Hypothetical question

Let say Ronaldo score 70 goals next season for Al Nassr and guide them to Saudi Pro League Championship, AFC Champions League, Kings Cup, Saudi Super Cup and Asia Super Cup and FIFA Club World Cup. Will he be considered for Ballon d'Or in 2024? Can you win Ballon d’Or outside of Europe?

 

[antk]

Hypothetical question

Let say Ronaldo score 70 goals next season for Al Nassr and guide them to Saudi Pro League Championship, AFC Champions League, Kings Cup, Saudi Super Cup and Asia Super Cup and FIFA Club World Cup. Will he be considered for Ballon d'Or in 2024? Can you win Ballon d’Or outside of Europe?

No.

 

[red.knight]

No.

Why not?

 

[FrankFoot]

Just out of interest, why does this debate always feel so much more impassioned than others?

If I was to say I thought Ferdinand was better than John Terry to someone who disagreed for example there would probably be a pretty calm discussion about it.

With Ronaldo and Messi it always feels really heightened and people make extremely bold claims and it often becomes a bit snippy.

Is it because they were both so good that people care about them more than others do about their favourite players?

Genuienly curious.

Basically manchildren, to me it's not different than k-pop fans on Twitter getting at each other in the name of their favorite singers. Maybe people will say Football it's more macho, so less ridiculous, but looks the same for me.
Being a grown man, and getting mad cause someone thinks another footballer it's better than your favorite it's very ridiculous too, no matter who you support.

I guess the anonymity of the internet make things less shameful, cause I can't imagine two 40 year old grown men screaming at each other in real life because of Cristiano and Messi.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

Why not?

Why not start giving it to players in Sunday League?

 

[antk]

Why not?

Because there isn't a single genuinely high-level competition in all of those you just listed?

 

[red.knight]

Because there isn't a single genuinely high-level competition in all of those you just listed?

I get your point but I want to know if footballers playing outside Europe are eligible for Ballon d'Or.

 

[Escobar]

Why not?

It is meaningless

 

[tomaldinho1]

I get your point but I want to know if footballers playing outside Europe are eligible for Ballon d'Or.

Yes they can. They won’t win but they can.

 

[red.knight]

Why not start giving it to players in Sunday League?

I want to know if players outside Europe will be considered for Ballon d'Or. Lets say a certain player in a Brazilian league smashed every record and won every domestic and continental trophy. Will he be eligible for Ballon d'Or consideration?

 

[red.knight]

Yes they can. They won’t win but they can.

Okay, thanks.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Just out of interest, why does this debate always feel so much more impassioned than others?

If I was to say I thought Ferdinand was better than John Terry to someone who disagreed for example there would probably be a pretty calm discussion about it.

With Ronaldo and Messi it always feels really heightened and people make extremely bold claims and it often becomes a bit snippy.

Is it because they were both so good that people care about them more than others do about their favourite players?

Genuienly curious.

I’ve always suspected it’s because there isn’t really a clear winner and therefore each side has bought an army of bots to fight each other on social media for eternity. People love to compare in football but it’s almost impossible given how many intangibles there are in every game and different teams, leagues etc. I refuse to believe anyone cares this much.

It’s not perfect but really the only time you can directly compare them is from when they were together in LL playing for the 2 dominant teams. They are basically inseparable, I think one has more CL and the other more LL and Ronaldo scored more but assisted less and Messi’s overall goal contributions is higher. And really if both sides of the tiresome debate are honest, they aren’t even similar players stylistically but that won’t stop the never ending back and forth, name calling and generally terrible chat because I’m convinced half of them are bots constantly stoking the embers of the dying careers of two globally famous athletes.

 

[red.knight]

It is meaningless

I don't disagree with that but if they keep on signing players at the current rate, i won't be surprised if the league is considered one of the top 5.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

I want to know if players outside Europe will be considered for Ballon d'Or. Lets say a certain player in a Brazilian league smashed every record and won every domestic and continental trophy. Will he be eligible for Ballon d'Or consideration?

Maybe, not familiar with the quality of the Brazillian leagues, but I'd be looking at The Championship for worthy winners before I'd consider the Saudi Retirement League.

 

[Lay]

Al Hilal, Al Ittihad (you can swap them with Al Hilal) Al Nassr and Al Ahli , in this order have the best teams in the league right now. Al Nassr desperately need a defender.

Al ahli just signed Kessie and zielisnki for the midfield to go with their star studded attack.

Going to be a really fun 4 horse race for the title.

Has Zielinski gone officially?

 

[RedRonaldo]

The last paragraph apart, I think this is a reasonable take. However, I don't think it is a matter of the sport, to me it is just clear from watching those four that one falls short a bit. Placing him there would be as placing another basketball player alongside James and Jordan because he's got more rings than them.

Sport just isn't as simple as 'most achievements = greatest', especially not in a team sport in which even individual awards are decided on titles won by teams.

Although I agree football isn’t just as simple as about achievements, but I honestly couldn’t think of any other competitive team sports which wouldn’t regard the one with greatest career stats/achievements as their GOAT.

For example, in NBA when they are doing GOAT debate they always measure in terms of numbers of MVPs, NBA titles, Final MVPs, all star selections, career points, career rebounds, career assists etc as you can see, these are all heavily stats-based, award-based and achievements-based. And NBA is probably the 2nd biggest team sports in the world.

And then we also have other team sports like American football, Rugby, Baseball, Crickets which are all the same when debating their GOATs:

Baseball GOAT - career home run stats, batting average stats, stolen bases stats, OPS stats, WAR stats, now of MVPs, Gold Golves, all-star appearance etc

NFL GOAT - career yards stats, receptions stats, touchdowns stats, no. of super Browns rings, MVPs etc

What I mean is, if we put Ronaldo under those GOAT criteria from other team sports above, he would undoubtedly be considered as main contender for GOAT too. It always seems to me ignoring those GOAT criteria in football is like breaking away from the norms of every other team sports out there, which is kind of strange.

 

[Kinsella]

He is arguably the greatest ever player in CL, and also arguably the greatest ever goalscorer the world had ever seen. I am sure he had at least 2 huge grounds to be called the greatest to ever do it.

Those are accolades, and arguable ones. But that’s besides the point. When I mentioned that he doesn’t have enough to his game I’m referring to what he can do with the ball at his feet, and he simply put he’s lacking in that department.

I’ve watched most of Ronaldo’s career, or at least the relevant parts; from his emergence at United through to the end of his time at Real Madrid. He’s undoubtedly a great of the game, but I never once thought when watching him that this guy’s the greatest player who ever lived. Relatively speaking - he’s just too talent deficient for that title.

 

[Gehrman]

Although I agree football isn’t just as simple as about achievements, but I honestly couldn’t think of any other competitive team sports which wouldn’t regard the one with greatest career stats/achievements as their GOAT.

For example, in NBA when they are doing GOAT debate they always measure in terms of numbers of MVPs, NBA titles, Final MVPs, all star selections, career points, career rebounds, career assists etc as you can see, these are all heavily stats-based, award-based and achievements-based. And NBA is probably the 2nd biggest team sports in the world.

And then we also have other team sports like American football, Rugby, Baseball, Crickets which are all the same when debating their GOATs:

Baseball GOAT - career home run stats, batting average stats, stolen bases stats, OPS stats, WAR stats, now of MVPs, Gold Golves, all-star appearance etc

NFL GOAT - career yards stats, receptions stats, touchdowns stats, no. of super Browns rings, MVPs etc

What I mean is, if we put Ronaldo under those GOAT criteria from other team sports above, he would undoubtedly be considered as main contender for GOAT too. It always seems to me ignoring those GOAT criteria in football is like breaking away from the norms of every other team sports out there, which is kind of strange.

People here use stats indefinitely in the great goat debate. But i think using stats intelligently is also looking at them in context. Position/role/team mates/manager/league/era etc. Its a bit like Maradona. Not up there with Pelé, Messi and Ronaldo or Romario in total goals scored but he was a high scoring nr. 10 playing in a brutal era in the best defensive league in the world.

I think Ronnie belongs up there in the top 4 or 5 and people can have their own preference whether he is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or what ever but a lot of stats are just pointless without context. You wouldnt find many who thought Romario was the 2nd best player in history because he has the 2nd hightest goals tally untill Ronaldo and Messi overtook him.

Its a bit like people on twitter saying Messi didnt win the WC in 2010 but won the Ballon D'Or and scored like 50+ goals so Haaland should win it because he scored 50+ goals, but Messi was just surreal to watch in that season. Beautiful legenday dribbling, scoring for fun and was still then a 10/10 passer. Haaland is a freak poacher that's it. And i wont complain if he wins it but he has nothing on a 23 year old Messi and you have to watch them to see that. G/A matters but so does just watching games.

 

[Andrade]

Not particularly a Ronaldo fan, especially due to the last few years actions. And not to drag Portugal as a team, they are decent. But it can hardly be fair to judge a players status based on the exploits of his international team?

Out of those 5 tournaments, in 1 they didn't make it out of the group stage, in 2 they exited Round of 16.
Plus something can be said for their ability to create chances for him.

If we stick to this criteria then in 10-15 years, even if Haaland scores double the goals Ronaldo has, then he has no chance since Norway hasn't qualified for a WC/EC for more than 20 years at this point. With this generation they'll hopefully be back in there, but hardly expect them to go deep in the tournaments.

I'm judging him on his own exploits, not the exploits of his country. And Portugal is nothing like Norway when it comes to football pedigree or even size.

 

[Andrade]

I have huge respect on players you’ve mentioned. But objectively speaking, he had the same amount of Ballon D’ors wins+runners up (12 times) as the other 3 added together (Cruyff 4 times, Beckenbauer 5 times, Di Stefano 3 times). Based on that alone, even though you may not think he should be regarded the same as Pele, Messi and Maradona, he should still be a tier above those others instead of competing against them.

And at any other competitive sports, based on what he has achieved individually and collectively, there’s no way he wouldn’t be regarded as GOAT (alongside with the other 3). He is just like a Lebron in basketball or a Nadal in Tennis. Of course people could still prefer Jordan/Kobe or Djokovic/Federer and rightly so, but they all are about the same level of greatness in objective sense.

Alfredo DiStefano and Cruyff have strong arguments to be ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo in any list. The Ballon D'Or is not a solid argument against that if you understand anything about how the Ballon D'Or is different now to what it was in the past (especially in DiStefano's time, when you were not allowed to win it 2 years in a row and he was not even eligible to win it until he was almost 30).

 

[Matriac]

I'm judging him on his own exploits, not the exploits of his country. And Portugal is nothing like Norway when it comes to football pedigree or even size.

He still depends on his national team to win matches to go far in the tournament so he has opportunities to score in the playoffs, and create chances for him to get on the end off.

You're right that Norway is nothing like Portugal. But Portugal is nothing like Argentina.

 

[Zehner]

Although I agree football isn’t just as simple as about achievements, but I honestly couldn’t think of any other competitive team sports which wouldn’t regard the one with greatest career stats/achievements as their GOAT.

For example, in NBA when they are doing GOAT debate they always measure in terms of numbers of MVPs, NBA titles, Final MVPs, all star selections, career points, career rebounds, career assists etc as you can see, these are all heavily stats-based, award-based and achievements-based. And NBA is probably the 2nd biggest team sports in the world.

And then we also have other team sports like American football, Rugby, Baseball, Crickets which are all the same when debating their GOATs:

Baseball GOAT - career home run stats, batting average stats, stolen bases stats, OPS stats, WAR stats, now of MVPs, Gold Golves, all-star appearance etc

NFL GOAT - career yards stats, receptions stats, touchdowns stats, no. of super Browns rings, MVPs etc

What I mean is, if we put Ronaldo under those GOAT criteria from other team sports above, he would undoubtedly be considered as main contender for GOAT too. It always seems to me ignoring those GOAT criteria in football is like breaking away from the norms of every other team sports out there, which is kind of strange.

The thing that you still don't really understand IMO is that the goal record is just a number and the context in which this number came to exist is extremely important. Of course your goals correlate with how well you perform but how much it does correlates from player to player. Messi for instance has much more great plays per goal than Cristiano and Iniesta probably has even more than Messi as rarely as he scored.

And honestly, what is the point of comparing the goal record of Cristiano with that of other greats when Cristiano obviously did everything he could to optimize it to the fullest when the players you compare him to had other priorities?

It is af is Cristiano at one point thought 'well, regardless of how well Messi and I are playing, the media always just compare our goal records and titles anyway, so I can as well just cut all the other stuff'.
For me, he's one of the best ever because of the period between 2008 and 2014. He could've stopped playing football then and he still would be.

 

[tenpoless]

They barley beat a club that have 0.001% of their budget with a dodgy penalty and he celebrates like he scored in a CL final.

Waiiitt the foreign players all have arabic names in the teamsheet?

 

[Rob]

Just out of interest, why does this debate always feel so much more impassioned than others?

If I was to say I thought Ferdinand was better than John Terry to someone who disagreed for example there would probably be a pretty calm discussion about it.

With Ronaldo and Messi it always feels really heightened and people make extremely bold claims and it often becomes a bit snippy.

Is it because they were both so good that people care about them more than others do about their favourite players?

Genuienly curious.

It's why it's basically it's own industry on social media. With a picture of either of them along with a caption explaining why he's better than the other - and along comes tens or even hundreds of thousands of likes and comments.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

It's why it's basically it's own industry on social media. With a picture of either of them along with a caption explaining why he's better than the other - and along comes tens or even hundreds of thousands of likes and comments.

I just would have thought it would of slowed down with them both basically riding off into the sunset now.

I think it was one of the most boring discussions of the last generation of football so maybe I was just being hopeful.

 

[RedRonaldo]

People here use stats indefinitely in the great goat debate. But i think using stats intelligently is also looking at them in context. Position/role/team mates/manager/league/era etc. Its a bit like Maradona. Not up there with Pelé, Messi and Ronaldo or Romario in total goals scored but he was a high scoring nr. 10 playing in a brutal era in the best defensive league in the world.

I think Ronnie belongs up there in the top 4 or 5 and people can have their own preference whether he is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or what ever but a lot of stats are just pointless without context. You wouldnt find many who thought Romario was the 2nd best player in history because he has the 2nd hightest goals tally untill Ronaldo and Messi overtook him.

Its a bit like people on twitter saying Messi didnt win the WC in 2010 but won the Ballon D'Or and scored like 50+ goals so Haaland should win it because he scored 50+ goals, but Messi was just surreal to watch in that season. Beautiful legenday dribbling, scoring for fun and was still then a 10/10 passer. Haaland is a freak poacher that's it. And i wont complain if he wins it but he has nothing on a 23 year old Messi and you have to watch them to see that. G/A matters but so does just watching games.

Sure. But what I mean, while I do agree is one simple stats without context usually doesn’t tell the whole picture. But multiple stats/records/awards/trophies/achievements across the highest level competitions usually does lead to GOAT debate on about every competitive sports out there.

And I do appreciate the beauty of the game alot too. For example, Cantona used to the player I admired most during my childhood. Watching him play was pure joy at times. But if he didn’t manage to win a single trophy with us all these time, would he be considered the same level of greatness to you, just by watching his games? Sure he is still a great player to watch on the field, but without achievement back it up, he wouldn’t be anywhere nearly as “great” IMO.

 

[golden_blunder]

This silly debate will still be ongoing when both players are long dead

 

[Rojow]

There is no really a debate, just a bunch of delusional fanboys who want their player to be recognized as the best. He couldn’t do it at the biggest stage which is the WC nor win a best player of any internacional tournament he played with Portugal. Basically his unique argument there is being the guy with most goals playing against amateur teams.

 

[Andrade]

He still depends on his national team to win matches to go far in the tournament so he has opportunities to score in the playoffs, and create chances for him to get on the end off.

You're right that Norway is nothing like Portugal. But Portugal is nothing like Argentina.

No one mentioned Argentina. Plenty of people who've played for countries half the size of Portugal and with much lesser football pedigrees have scored or assisted goals in the KO rounds of the World Cup. Eusebio has scored goals the KO rounds of the WC and he only played in one tournament FFS. There's no excuse for it if you're trying to say that CR is better than literally every other player in history. The actual truth is that he's not.

 

[Gehrman]

There is no really a debate, just a bunch of delusional fanboys who want their player to be recognized as the best. He couldn’t do it at the biggest stage which is the WC nor win a best player of any internacional tournament he played with Portugal. Basically his unique argument there is being the guy with most goals playing against amateur teams.

His uniqe argument is 5 cl's and being the all time cl topscorer.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Thing is, there's no way a sane person would ever choose to go for a pint with Messi over Ronaldo. Messi would be sat there looking all lost like a small lonely child, probably just nodding while you do all the talking. Ronaldo on the other hand would be all hugs and kisses from minute one. You'd probably have some great discussions with him about the state of the commonwealth and such whereas Messi would be like que, que? asking what countries exist outside of Spanish speaking ones.

Messi would also probably expect you to pay for your own drink and for me that's a dealbreaker.

 

[Gehrman]

Sure. But what I mean, while I do agree is one simple stats without context usually doesn’t tell the whole picture. But multiple stats/records/awards/trophies/achievements across the highest level competitions usually does lead to GOAT debate on about every competitive sports out there.

And I do appreciate the beauty of the game alot too. For example, Cantona used to the player I admired most during my childhood. Watching him play was pure joy at times. But if he didn’t manage to win a single trophy with us all these time, would he be considered the same level of greatness to you, just by watching his games? Sure he is still a great player to watch on the field, but without achievement back it up, he wouldn’t be anywhere nearly as “great” IMO.

No not to the same degree. Cantona's iconic trait was his influence and leadership. He was actually a true mentor to younger players apart from his rashness similar to Zidane. But he wouldnt be a worse player if he performed at the same lvl but the team won less because its a team game.

 

[Gehrman]

Thing is, there's no way a sane person would ever choose to go for a pint with Messi over Ronaldo. Messi would be sat there looking all lost like a small lonely child, probably just nodding while you do all the talking. Ronaldo on the other hand would be all hugs and kisses from minute one. You'd probably have some great discussions with him about the state of the commonwealth and such whereas Messi would be like que, que? asking what countries exist outside of Spanish speaking ones.

Messi would also probably expect you to pay for your own drink and for me that's a dealbreaker.

Ronaldo would just drink water and flex his six pack. Then he would seduce the waiter and spring on to the table and roar Siuuu!. More fun than Messi yes.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Ronaldo would just drink water and flex his six pack. Then he would seduce the waiter and spring on to the table and roar Siuuu!. More fun than Messi yes.

One day we'll experience it for real

 

[VivaObertan]

No. There are three. No player who has never scored a goal or registered an assist in the knockout rounds of the World Cup after playing in 5 tournaments can possibly be the greatest player of all time.

Yeah my mistake. What a strange criteria, given Messi hadn't until this year either. And if France had won WC, or Argentina went out in the groups, Messi would still be a GOAT.

 

[Joel Miller]

your post is quite tragic and pathetic. What’s wrong in a Ronaldo fan boy declaring him as ‘GOAT’ and why should you have problem with this?
I’m not a Ronaldo fan boy in any way but the hatred for this guy by Messi fans is something else and is often one sided. Most Ronaldo fans I have seen at least often have respect for Messi in this discussion,the otherwise are Messi fans who are often insecured and abusive towards Ronaldo.

Come on I don’t think that’s very fair at all. As I said, suddenly referring to him as “the GOAT” continuously is his cunning way of saying “he’s better than Messi” but without actually saying it, and that makes me laugh because I think it’s quite desperate and on obvious response to Qatar 2022. Surely disappearing for months after Argentina win the World Cup only to come back when the dust has settled and start referring to Ronaldo as the GOAT continuously, is more tragic?

And forget all this Messi - Ronaldo tribalism, from my own experience Ronaldo is heavily disliked by a lot of football fans who have no interest in this fanboy war. A lot of people disliked him from the get go for being a diver, many disliked him for his narcissism, and more recently even more have taken a dislike to him for how he treated United and the fact he gave an interview to a television personality who is rightly loathed throughout Britain (I don’t think disrupting the harmony in his national side’s World Cup squad did his overall popularity any favours either).

And I’m sorry friend, but the bolded part is pure fantasy. Any time I see the two discussed on any social media platform I’m mostly reading comments about “Pessi” or “rigged tournaments” or “growth hormones” or “dwarfism” etc etc. It is absolutely toxic, and it definitely goes both ways. But spare me any nonsense about Ronaldo fanatics affording Messi some respect. I quite a like a reasoned debate around these players and their standings in the game, but it often gets out of hand very fast.