Could they void the PL due to the Coronavirus? | No | Resuming June 17th

Redcy said:
the trouble with bcd seems to be that inGermany they reckons they need around 200 people to put on a game.
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Not just Germany, but have seen that as an estimate for PL teams as well. That number goes down as you go lower through the leagues as you need less safety staff, less ball boys, less TV and crucially no VAR in the lower leagues.

but then each of these people have families as well. So you can easily see the interaction of 500 people when you out on a match BCD.
 
RobinLFC said:
No, but that's for obvious (selfish) reasons... I'd understand it if they did that though.

A club like Villa would survive if they go down again, I'd think? If it however can save any team from collapsing, even just the one, I'd prefer that outcome over an outcome where Liverpool is awarded the title. I'd rather the the high ground right now and accept a solution for the greater good, than looking back on a tainted title in five years time.
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It is awkward in Villa's case. Down on both as it stands and PPG but with a in hand.
Pretty awkward really.

Sort of reverse with Sheff Utd. Wouldn't be 5th on either approach but have a in hand which could see them 5th.
How awkward. They better hope for bcd!!
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
villa will survive, but it might take them a decade to recover. All their best players will be sold. They might bounce straight back, or they spend years fighting it out to get promoted again.

making that decision based on average points or a league table where they have a game in hand is just immoral.
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The problem with them getting demoted will be the issue of games next year. If they go down then along with many clubs at EFL if we don't see any live attended games for months then many clubs are going out of business. We know that the PL clubs will likely survive down to TV, but EFL is not going to survive unscathed. A club that is coming down from the EFL would be the worst possible case. If they go down based on PPG and with the possibility of surviving then yeah there is going to be a lawsuit. A big one I'd imagine, they would have every right.
 
Imagine we're seeing this conversation from F1 bosses - season must be finished, teams will go bust if we don't complete, the integrity, the finances. Pushing to finish bcd and the risks involved, pushing their propaganda that out must be completed.

I have lived in a football bubble, starting to see how morally corrupt all this is.

Curious to know, have any of the LFC fans here actually lost anyone in their family from this yet? Sorry to single out LFC fans but that is where most of this unsavory noise is coming from tbh.
 
Insulting another member
Blueman said:
Imagine we're seeing this conversation from F1 bosses - season must be finished, teams will go bust if we don't complete, the integrity, the finances. Pushing to finish bcd and the risks involved, pushing their propaganda that out must be completed.

I have lived in a football bubble, starting to see how morally corrupt all this is.

Curious to know, have any of the LFC fans here actually lost anyone in their family from this yet? Sorry to single out LFC fans but that is where most of this unsavory noise is coming from tbh.
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Please feck off you self righteous twat.
 
Sparky Rhiwabon said:
I'm just being realistic about how society works in the UK and people's wilingness to adopt such measures for a longer time.
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People are going to have to get over going to the pub for a little while. I say that as someone who’s parents run one. I hope it’s all back to normal soon but it just simply isn’t going to happen.
 
Blueman said:
Imagine we're seeing this conversation from F1 bosses - season must be finished, teams will go bust if we don't complete, the integrity, the finances. Pushing to finish bcd and the risks involved, pushing their propaganda that out must be completed.

I have lived in a football bubble, starting to see how morally corrupt all this is.

Curious to know, have any of the LFC fans here actually lost anyone in their family from this yet? Sorry to single out LFC fans but that is where most of this unsavory noise is coming from tbh.
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I suppose any team's fans who have sought a trophy for 30 years and are a gnat's gnadger from achieving it aren't exactly going to let it go unless they have to.

But there comes a point where you have to stop the moaning and pressure in the press and weigh up the importance in the scheme of this plague.
I think we're there now. The constant scouse mafia has dried up a bit.
 
Blueman said:
Imagine we're seeing this conversation from F1 bosses - season must be finished, teams will go bust if we don't complete, the integrity, the finances. Pushing to finish bcd and the risks involved, pushing their propaganda that out must be completed.

I have lived in a football bubble, starting to see how morally corrupt all this is.

Curious to know, have any of the LFC fans here actually lost anyone in their family from this yet? Sorry to single out LFC fans but that is where most of this unsavory noise is coming from tbh.
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The state of this. Which Liverpool fan is asking for players to get back to it when it will still be unsafe. We're all operating on the assumption that football will only come back when it's safe and practical.

Moreover, I 100% refuse to believe there would be some other fanbase, after 30 years without a title, that wouldn't be conflicted by this situation. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous. We've all been watching football on a daily basis for decades, right? We've invested an unhealthy amount into all things put in proper perspective. But football obviously means something to us as a result of that.

But to answer your query, my mum is severely immuno-compromised; I worry about her everyday, and haven't seen her in person now for over a month. Funnily enough that doesn't mean that football totally evaporates because it was part of our relationship, and one of the things that made her ongoing deteriorating health problems more emotionally manageable for both of us was the recent success on the pitch and looking forward to watching Liverpool win the league for the first time together. So, but there's room in my thoughts for two of these things at once. You can decide if those are unsavoury noises though mate.
 
Sandikan said:
It is awkward in Villa's case. Down on both as it stands and PPG but with a in hand.
Pretty awkward really.

Sort of reverse with Sheff Utd. Wouldn't be 5th on either approach but have a in hand which could see them 5th.
How awkward. They better hope for bcd!!
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Sheffield United are the team I think could lose out the most from this (talking top flight teams obviously lower league's are worse off).

With CL money they could truly establish themselves as a top half team like Leicester have done, but starting again as technically a newly promoted team without Henderson and that's probably their one chance at the big time gone.

That's one of the reasons I don't think a void can/should be so, they deserve a chance to see this through even if it could end up being at Chelsea's expense.
 
DoubleDinhos said:
The state of this. Which Liverpool fan is asking for players to get back to it when it will still be unsafe. We're all operating on the assumption that football will only come back when it's safe and practical.

Moreover, I 100% refuse to believe there would be some other fanbase, after 30 years without a title, that wouldn't be conflicted by this situation. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous. We've all been watching football on a daily basis for decades, right? We've invested an unhealthy amount into all things put in proper perspective. But football obviously means something to us as a result of that.

But to answer your query, my mum is severely immuno-compromised; I worry about her everyday, and haven't seen her in person now for over a month. Funnily enough that doesn't mean that football totally evaporates because it was part of our relationship, and one of the things that made her ongoing deteriorating health problems more emotionally manageable for both of us was the recent success on the pitch and looking forward to watching Liverpool win the league for the first time together. So, but there's room in my thoughts for two of these things at once. You can decide if those are unsavoury noises though mate.
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I support you on the calling out part along with the other scousers here, but I would say that there are plenty of Liverpool fans who will say they want it only to return with safety in mind, but then go on to talk about solutions that clearly cannot be safe. Nonetheless they now seem to be in the minority as we get to a point where the country seems to be no closer to an answer to COVID that will see attended games any time soon, and BCD just seems to be too difficult for every game, etc.
 
Dancfc said:
Sheffield United are the team I think could lose out the most from this (talking top flight teams obviously lower league's are worse off).

With CL money they could truly establish themselves as a top half team like Leicester have done, but starting again as technically a newly promoted team without Henderson and that's probably their one chance at the big time gone.

That's one of the reasons I don't think a void can/should be so, they deserve a chance to see this through even if it could end up being at Chelsea's expense.
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I think Villa would be worst hit if we went PPG or as is. They would go down, and with the prospect of a BCD environment in the EFL they might have no way to even keep their doors open. This is what I think will not see a PPG or as is scenario unless they can somehow sustain the massive lost money in the EFL. I think on gate money alone the clubs would need around £400m to keep them afloat in the EFL for even half a season, I would assume a lot of sponsors would balk at paying for BCD games too, with many not even being willing to pay up anyway at the moment. Sheffield United would lose out you are right but the teams going down or not coming up would potentially be bigger losers.
 
The big problem facing the Premier League is there are numerous vested interest. What’s good for Liverpool/Sheffield is a proble for MUFC/Villa. Will sky hand over the money? Why should they, they have nothing to sell. Will the players take a pay cut, the rest of us who have been furloughed have. Agents worried about extending contracts and loosing out on fees.
You try and please that lot.
 
The move that makes most sense is to call the domestic league season as it is now on a PPG basis but with no relegation. Teams in automatic promotions spots on PPG move up the ladder. This means the pyramid is going to look different for a couple of seasons at least but that is easy to cope with and can make the decision, if wanted, to readjust if/once a vaccine is found.

The League Cup can be sacrificed. PL teams won't miss it and I am sure EFL clubs would gladly take that loss too if it aided getting things going sooner. I suspect once gone nobody would miss it and it can stay gone.

FA Cup remains but replays are no more.

This will mean the 20/21 season can get started BCD as soon as is possible which would give the best chance of being back on schedule come next summer with another lockdown seemingly inevitable between now and then.

This leaves a decision to be taken on whether they want to play out the 19/20 FA Cup in the early part of the 20/21 season or simply call it null and void. I suspect with so few teams involved they may want to play it out but either seems fine.

I think this is a logical and attainable solution for the domestic season for England and indeed across Europe with the majority of "losers" in this scenario only really losing out on a potential end of season promotion via playoffs where the individual probability of success for each club is not large enough for them to feel overly aggrieved.

The Champions and Europa League are more difficult and complex to resolve. The 19/20 EL can probably be declared null and void with zero last 16 second legs played and two last 16 first legs not played but the biggest factor in deciphering the importance, or rather non-importance, of it being completed in comparison to the Champions League being the disparity in terms of money involved. The CL could be played out in the same way as suggested for the FA Cup with the 19/20 season being completed during the early stages of the 20/21 domestic seasons or could also be null and voided. I wonder if the profile of the clubs already qualified for the quarter finals (PSG, Atalanta, Atletico Madrd and RB Leipzig) could impact on the likelihood of the 19/20 season being declared null and void? I'd certainly suggest it would be more likely to be forced through were it Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Liverpool who were already booked in. In any case I am not sure of the viability of any Champions League or Europa League while the pandemic is ongoing sans vaccine with it just being a logistical nightmare with every country across Europe likely to remain in differing degrees of restrictions for the foreseeable. I could see a scenario where we have no CL or EL for the next 18 months and it leads to a European Super League being accelerated enough that that is what we return to when we next see football on a European basis.

In any case, domestic football is the key and more easily resolved/adjusted and I think the above is by far the way to go.
 
The above is in assumption that all parties are on the same page. In reality I think we are far from that scenario. I can see elite level players striking in protest at play being resumed and probably justifiably so but this would/will cause ructions in the game as their moves would have catastrophic impacts on clubs and their peers lower down the food chain.
 
Bullhitter said:
The move that makes most sense is to call the domestic league season as it is now on a PPG basis but with no relegation. Teams in automatic promotions spots on PPG move up the ladder. This means the pyramid is going to look different for a couple of seasons at least but that is easy to cope with and can make the decision, if wanted, to readjust if/once a vaccine is found.

The League Cup can be sacrificed. PL teams won't miss it and I am sure EFL clubs would gladly take that loss too if it aided getting things going sooner. I suspect once gone nobody would miss it and it can stay gone.

FA Cup remains but replays are no more.

This will mean the 20/21 season can get started BCD as soon as is possible which would give the best chance of being back on schedule come next summer with another lockdown seemingly inevitable between now and then.

This leaves a decision to be taken on whether they want to play out the 19/20 FA Cup in the early part of the 20/21 season or simply call it null and void. I suspect with so few teams involved they may want to play it out but either seems fine.

I think this is a logical and attainable solution for the domestic season for England and indeed across Europe with the majority of "losers" in this scenario only really losing out on a potential end of season promotion via playoffs where the individual probability of success for each club is not large enough for them to feel overly aggrieved.

The Champions and Europa League are more difficult and complex to resolve. The 19/20 EL can probably be declared null and void with zero last 16 second legs played and two last 16 first legs not played but the biggest factor in deciphering the importance, or rather non-importance, of it being completed in comparison to the Champions League being the disparity in terms of money involved. The CL could be played out in the same way as suggested for the FA Cup with the 19/20 season being completed during the early stages of the 20/21 domestic seasons or could also be null and voided. I wonder if the profile of the clubs already qualified for the quarter finals (PSG, Atalanta, Atletico Madrd and RB Leipzig) could impact on the likelihood of the 19/20 season being declared null and void? I'd certainly suggest it would be more likely to be forced through were it Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Liverpool who were already booked in. In any case I am not sure of the viability of any Champions League or Europa League while the pandemic is ongoing sans vaccine with it just being a logistical nightmare with every country across Europe likely to remain in differing degrees of restrictions for the foreseeable. I could see a scenario where we have no CL or EL for the next 18 months and it leads to a European Super League being accelerated enough that that is what we return to when we next see football on a European basis.

In any case, domestic football is the key and more easily resolved/adjusted and I think the above is by far the way to go.
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Pexbo said:
This is an absolutely shit idea. Look at the position of the teams we are yet to play:

United:

Tottenham = 8
Sheffield = 7
Norwich = 20
Brighton = 15
Bournemouth = 18
Villa = 19
Southampton = 14
Palace = 11
West Ham = 16
Leicester = 3

Average = 13.1
Top 6 left to play: 1
Rivals for CL spot: 1
Bottom 6 left to play: 6

Then Chelsea:

Villa = 19
City = 2
Leicester = 3
West Ham = 16
Watford = 17
Palace = 11
Sheffield United = 7
Norwich = 20
Liverpool = 1
Wolves = 6

Average = 10.2
Top 6 left to play: 4
Rivals for CL spot: 2
Bottom 6 left to play: 4


Leicester:

Watford = 17
Chelsea = 3
Brighton = 15
Everton = 12
Palace = 11
Arsenal = 9
Bournemouth = 18
Sheffield United = 7
Tottenham = 8
United = 5

Average = 10.3
Top 6 left to play: 2
Rivals for CL spot: 2
Bottom 6 left to play: 3
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The same applies around the relegation zone and promotion spots.

PPG is not fair because the games played aren’t equal.
 
Bullhitter said:
I think this is a logical and attainable solution for the domestic season for England and indeed across Europe with the majority of "losers" in this scenario only really losing out on a potential end of season promotion via playoffs where the individual probability of success for each club is not large enough for them to feel overly aggrieved.
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If you one of the playoff teams and you don't survive because you have no income should they feel aggrieved? If as seems like BCD is the only option for football, EFL clubs will not survive without huge amounts of cash.

What about the PL clubs who would have planned for say X amount of TV money? Presumably they won't get the planned amount as the extra two teams will need to take a share?

I think its likely some variant of this will occur, but saying teams might not feel aggrieved assumes an awful lot.
 
Pexbo said:
...



The same applies around the relegation zone and promotion spots.

PPG is not fair because the games played aren’t equal.
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Maybe we could apply the RAWK Alternative League points system :D :D
 
Redcy said:
If you one of the playoff teams and you don't survive because you have no income should they feel aggrieved? If as seems like BCD is the only option for football, EFL clubs will not survive without huge amounts of cash.

What about the PL clubs who would have planned for say X amount of TV money? Presumably they won't get the planned amount as the extra two teams will need to take a share?

I think its likely some variant of this will occur, but saying teams might not feel aggrieved assumes an awful lot.
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Clubs are going to feel aggrieved, there's nothing can be done about that. Whether they are entitled to feel aggrieved is another matter as is whether or not they or anybody arguing their case can come up with a solution where fewer teams will feel aggrieved. Generally if the response is (pretty much as Pexbo above) along the lines of "but we" it can be discounted as basically self-serving and therefore largely irrelevant/unhelpful.
 
Bullhitter said:
I am not arguing the case for it being fair, I am arguing it is the most fair and least disruptive to the fewest clubs.

Fair is not a goal that is attainable.
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The most fair Is a complete reset and null and void. Every single side begins from an equal starting point relative to an equal moment in time.
 
mariachi-19 said:
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Any position that Liverpool is just going to be handed the title is fanciful.

If you award the Dippers the title. Then every club in possible European qualification position who did have that chance will go fecking balistic and you will have lawyers engaged in disputes for years which would nearly cripple the FA with the amount of money offered by CL qualification.

Liverpool might have some sway in the press in the UK, but United's power and pull across Europe and the world, dwarfs LFC by a country mile.

The only way that Liverpool get awarded the title is if the season continues. Otherwise, the season will be declared null and void and we start 2020/2021 as if it were the start of the 2019/2020 season.
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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I agree, some people have just got really hung up on how ahead Liverpool are. Any final decision About what happens to the league (if we don’t resume) should be just as applicable as if Liverpool were 3 points ahead in the league than what they are.

Liverpool fans can talk about odds all they like - and the reality is that if the league resumes it would be incredibly unlikely for Liverpool to come second.

however - if you went back to the day this started which do you think would be more likely?

. Liverpool come second
. Oil would have a negative value?

The odds are beaten all the time.
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This is the common sense view. No one knows the answer as to how this is resolved but those assuming everyone would just accept the league championship being decided as is whilst they gain absolutely nothing is mental.

I'm also not sure why some keep going "if you void the league is well cause legal problems". It's a fecking pandemic. What can you do. It's more of a legal problem if you start trying to interfere with the natural end of a season and gift teams titles, promotion and relegation. That's when you lose integrity and legal issues appear.
 
Void the season and start in August at the same position as 19/20 start. It seems like the best of all the terrible alternatives.
 
TheReligion said:
This is the common sense view. No one knows the answer as to how this is resolved but those assuming everyone would just accept the league championship being decided as is whilst they gain absolutely nothing is mental.

I'm also not sure why some keep going "if you void the league is well cause legal problems". It's a fecking pandemic. What can you do. It's more of a legal problem if you start trying to interfere with the natural end of a season and gift teams titles, promotion and relegation. That's when you lose integrity and legal issues appear.
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This is why its tough voiding is exactly the same for everyone regardless of winners/losers, everyone loses out. Any other "fair" system punishes some teams and rewards some teams. Its not what I would want, but there is logic to saying it is at least equally bad.
 
Pexbo said:
The most fair Is a complete reset and null and void. Every single side begins from an equal starting point relative to an equal moment in time.
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Give me the names of teams that scenario is more fair to than the one I proposed and the reasons why. Remember we are talking about football here, ie the pyramid. If the season is null and void there is a more than reasonable chance clubs are going to have to hand back cash they do not have.
 
Redcy said:
This is why its tough voiding is exactly the same for everyone regardless of winners/losers, everyone loses out. Any other "fair" system punishes some teams and rewards some teams. Its not what I would want, but there is logic to saying it is at least equally bad.
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You have three loafs of bread and ten starving families. You are effectively saying it is better to let all the families starve because it would be unfair to those who would miss out.

(this is even assuming we have no way of discerning which families are more deserving when in football terms we have incomplete but sizeable data to be able to extrapolate)
 
Bullhitter said:
Give me the names of teams that scenario is more fair to than the one I proposed and the reasons why. Remember we are talking about football here, ie the pyramid. If the season is null and void there is a more than reasonable chance clubs are going to have to hand back cash they do not have.
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here we go again - why are clubs having to hand back money? Think rationally about your answer.

if you consider there are approximately 10 games left for this season and 50 for next season.

the biggest benefit to clubs is to maximise the number of games across the end of this season and next season.

How will it be best to fit these games in? That’s the exam question for me.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
here we go again - why are clubs having to hand back money? Think rationally about your answer.

if you consider there are approximately 10 games left for this season and 50 for next season.

the biggest benefit to clubs is to maximise the number of games across the end of this season and next season.

How will it be best to fit these games in? That’s the exam question for me.
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He isn't wanting to fit them in, his view tbf is that you just make the league as is, ok so those teams in 3-6 in the EFL might go out of business but they should have played better. I seriously doubt they are going to expand the league, especially when the fear is that we will have some troubles with next year.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
here we go again - why are clubs having to hand back money? Think rationally about your answer.

if you consider there are approximately 10 games left for this season and 50 for next season.

the biggest benefit to clubs is to maximise the number of games across the end of this season and next season.

How will it be best to fit these games in? That’s the exam question for me.
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I don't think it is in any way realistic to fit in both the remaining games of this season as well as completing next season without a very big likelihood it drags over and has a big impact on the 21/22 season, the Euros and beyond. Even if football can return by August/September it is a near guarantee that there will be another lengthy period of inactivity between now and next summer. Something has to give. If you are of the opinion (I think you are if I have interpreted correctly) that this season should be played to completion and then go from there that is fine, we just fundamentally disagree.
 
Dancfc said:
Sheffield United are the team I think could lose out the most from this (talking top flight teams obviously lower league's are worse off).

With CL money they could truly establish themselves as a top half team like Leicester have done, but starting again as technically a newly promoted team without Henderson and that's probably their one chance at the big time gone.

That's one of the reasons I don't think a void can/should be so, they deserve a chance to see this through even if it could end up being at Chelsea's expense.
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They'd still miss out on PPG. So they'd have to earn it properly in bcd. Which with United's resurgence and Chelsea still having a better team, i dont think they would do anyway.
 
Bullhitter said:
I don't think it is in any way realistic to fit in both the remaining games of this season as well as completing next season without a very big likelihood it drags over and has a big impact on the 21/22 season. Even if football can return by August/September it is a near guarantee that there will be another lengthy period of inactivity between now and next summer. Something has to give. If you are of the opinion (I think you are if I have interpreted correctly) that this season should be played to completion and then go from there that is fine, we just fundamentally disagree.
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I don’t think it’s anywhere near realistic to fit in all the remaining matches left of this season and next season.

your assumption couldn’t be further from the truth!

I believe we would get more games in (and that’s the priority) without playing every 2/3 days for a month, if we finish this season and start the next one when we can.

By finishing this season after such a long break, you need effectively 2 pre seasons. Much cleaner to end it now. Give players a proper break. It will be at least an 8 week lead time to the new season, and in that time you can have a pre season and a transfer window that aligns with the next season.
 
This promote teams on ppg but don't relegate anyone is bonkers.


Leeds are as likely to go up as Norwich are to go down. Why let Norwich off?

You need one rule to apply to all.
 
Redcy said:
He isn't wanting to fit them in, his view tbf is that you just make the league as is, ok so those teams in 3-6 in the EFL might go out of business but they should have played better. I seriously doubt they are going to expand the league, especially when the fear is that we will have some troubles with next year.
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Clubs are going out of business, fact. There are too many of them as is even before and without a pandemic. My suggestion provides the least disruption to the fewest teams at the same time as trying to maintain some, less important, sporting integrity.

BCD is going to kill possibly up to 20 EFL clubs. The only way they are saved is being helped by government or the richest clubs in the country. The decision of how to end the season is not going to have any impact on clubs in relative terms when compared to playing BCD for the next 18 months at least.

No EFL club sitting in a playoff spot not already in danger of going out of business are being put in danger of going out of business because of being denied a say 20% shot at promotion through the playoffs.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I don’t think it’s anywhere near realistic to fit in all the remaining matches left of this season and next season.

your assumption couldn’t be further from the truth!

I believe we would get more games in (and that’s the priority) without playing every 2/3 days for a month, if we finish this season and start the next one when we can.

By finishing this season after such a long break, you need effectively 2 pre seasons. Much cleaner to end it now. Give players a proper break. It will be at least an 8 week lead time to the new season, and in that time you can have a pre season and a transfer window that aligns with the next season.
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Are you reading my posts before responding? I am fully in agreement with what you just posted! The best solution is to end the season now. I am merely arguing against the season being declared null and void.
 
Taking all partisan issues out of it and null and void is the most simple and fair way of going about things if the league cannot be finished.

However, as much as I will hate it (and I mean really hate it), I just cannot see a scenario where the PL/FA deny the Dippers the title. Some sort of exception will be made for them. People need to remember how they ended up getting back in the CL in 2005/06 even though the rules at the time clearly stated that only the top four could qualify for the competition and that Champions did not automatically receive a spot. Furthermore, UEFA at the time even had a clear stipulation that only four teams from any league could qualify. However, because it was the Dippers and they have the 'best fans in the world' exceptions where made and they got in via the back door even though all the rules clearly stated they shouldn't be able too.
 
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