Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Skizzo said:
And also if an article came out saying 10% of whoever did whatever you did were violent racists, I’d also say that’s terrible.

If I were playing your role though, I’d then call you scum, tell you that you were also a violent racist and a liar, and ask what you’d done to fix it. You haven’t fixed it? Then you’re part of the problem.
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yeah agreed. if people were constantly saying large numbers of people with my job were racist and i always said "no they arent" and then a study came out proving that they are it would mean i have a lot of reevaluating to do. either that or try to discredit the study because of brittany spears
 
this episode's inspired me to search the term racism, hoo-booooooooy

Skizzo said:
I understand the angle, but it's also futile to ostracize police for every single incident involving a black person, while completely ignoring the ridiculous amount of black on black homicides.

Like the protest I alluded to above about the teenager who was shot and killed. He ran from police, pulled out a gun, and was shot and killed. What is there to protest there? Nothing. Yet out comes the BLM protestors claiming racism and that cops are inherently racist and don't care about black lives.

Yet Will Smith is shot and killed in a fairly random act of violence, and nothing is said.

It's hard to see what progress they expect to make in reforming all these racist police departments when they have absolutely no interest in addressing the ridiculously high rates of crime against their own people.

Police go into projects, get stabbed and attacked by a mob when doing their job, and people stand around cheering. BLM can't expect people to rally around them and support their cause when they have absolutely no regard for anyone else's safety, lives, or officers that are actually doing the job they swore to do.

Anyway, wasn't my intention to turn this back into a debate on black on black crime, but as I've said before, BLM hurts their own cause by being so incredibly prejudiced themselves in the incidents they choose to address.
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Skizzo said:
Hopefully you realize that all I've suggested is a different approach may help garner more support for their cause, and the change they want. That, and to stop protesting every single incident of an officer involved shooting with a black person. Its not always an innocent black teen who gets shot. I find it hard to get behind and support a group who selectively chooses which black lives matter.
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fecks sake
 
Carolina Red said:
You can get hit with both at the same time.
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Skizzo said:
He had some in possession, although how much it was in terms of usable amount as opposed to sellable, I couldn’t tell you.
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Okay so he was high on his own supply. But his supply was enough that he could be a dealer. I get it now. I thought it was one of the other.
 
ivaldo said:
The situation was managed poorly, but you really think it was just by coincidence that the start of that video was cut? Officers are responding to reports of shots fired and the dude runs across the street, fists clenched, and starts barking in the coppers face, completely unprovoked. Who the feck does that in a situation so evidently tense? The copper reacted spectacularly bad and I hope he gets reprimanded for it. Still, the video was made to look as though the copper just fancied a swing on a poor innocent man.
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I'm just guessing, but years of institutional racism, decades of mistrust in law enforcement and the trauma & anxiety from either or both are liable to make someone act irrationally in a highly charged incident.
Given the statistics, it's not unrealistic to expect the guy in question to be a victim of either or both, therefore the situation likely triggered some primal instinct.
Where someone who hasn’t been traumatised in such a manner would respond in a completely different way.

It’s part of the reason why saying things like “if he would’ve complied it would’ve ended so differently” help nobody & do nothing other than misdirecting conversation away from what the root issue is.
 
villain said:
I'm just guessing, but years of institutional racism, decades of mistrust in law enforcement and the trauma & anxiety from either or both are liable to make someone act irrationally in a highly charged incident.
Given the statistics, it's not unrealistic to expect the guy in question to be a victim of either or both, therefore the situation likely triggered some primal instinct.
Where someone who hasn’t been traumatised in such a manner would respond in a completely different way.

It’s part of the reason why saying things like “if he would’ve complied it would’ve ended so differently” help nobody & do nothing other than misdirecting conversation away from what the root issue is.
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The thing is, he wasn't even in that highly charged incident, he inserted himself into it. There was no officer within 20 feet of him, and he had to push by a bank of 5 people just to reach one. Now given that decades of mistrust in law enforcement has seen a disproportionately high level of officers die, given that those officers were responding to reports of shots fired, should we use the same rationale to excuse the actions of the officer that escalated the situation further? Of course not. It's for these reasons we see such a high level of attrition in US law enforcement, and attempting to justify the escalation of an incident like this goes no way to solving it.
 
ivaldo said:
The thing is, he wasn't even in that highly charged incident, he inserted himself into it. There was no officer within 20 feet of him, and he had to push by a bank of 5 people just to reach one. Now given that decades of mistrust in law enforcement has seen a disproportionately high level of officers die, given that those officers were responding to reports of shots fired, should we use the same rationale to excuse the actions of the officer that escalated the situation further? Of course not. It's for these reasons we see such a high level of attrition in US law enforcement, and attempting to justify the escalation of an incident like this goes no way to solving it.
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Officers should be held to a higher degree than the average civilians, the officer has a weapon, has a partner and can call for back up if necessary. It's not an equal comparable to make. Also there's lots of reasons for high level of attrition, some of it i'm sure is down to the stress and trauma of the job, but not all of it. On the flip side, there's also a lot of officers who are able to skirt the law despite their actions because they will be protected by their police union or fellow colleagues - and we've seen decades of that as well. The same can't be said for civilians.

We don't know why the guy acted the way that he did, but that isn't the issue here because officers are trained to deescalate situations and handle unpredictable issues. Civilians are not.
 
villain said:
Officers should be held to a higher degree than the average civilians, the officer has a weapon, has a partner and can call for back up if necessary. It's not an equal comparable to make. Also there's lots of reasons for high level of attrition, some of it i'm sure is down to the stress and trauma of the job, but not all of it. On the flip side, there's also a lot of officers who are able to skirt the law despite their actions because they will be protected by their police union or fellow colleagues - and we've seen decades of that as well. The same can't be said for civilians.

We don't know why the guy acted the way that he did, but that isn't the issue here because officers are trained to deescalate situations and handle unpredictable issues. Civilians are not.
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They should be held to a higher standard, I agree. That doesn’t mean civilians should be held to no standard, that they should have no accountability. Officers are also human, and when you ask them to do an impossible job, and I do believe policing is an impossible job at this point, you’re going to get irregular behaviour. Those officers that cross that line should absolutely be held accountable for their actions, but so should the significant portion of the general public who feel it acceptable to aid in pushing them over that ledge. Do you really see nothing wrong in what that civilian did?

Of course it isn’t the only reason for high levels of attrition, but it’s a prevalent one. It’s well documented nursing and teaching are two sectors struggling to recruit and maintain employees, yet policing trumps them both. Is it any surprise? What other job is there that is so heavily scrutinised, so stressful and unappreciated, that has such a woefully poor level of financial reward? As seen by posts and posters here, many consciously view them as a gang, and will treat them with derision. But hey, they’ve had training and they’ve got a tin badge, so we should expect them to exist within their role without any emotion.

Incessant goading, aggression and the characterisation as thugs, rapists and crooks, shouldn’t be acceptable behaviour just because they aren’t being paid a modest wage packet. And when you do invariably get this reaction from some officers, as we all know those kinds of actions produce, pointing the finger solely at the officers and not the instigators of such instances shouldn’t be encouraged, either.
 
ivaldo said:
They should be held to a higher standard, I agree. That doesn’t mean civilians should be held to no standard, that they should have no accountability. Officers are also human, and when you ask them to do an impossible job, and I do believe policing is an impossible job at this point, you’re going to get irregular behaviour. Those officers that cross that line should absolutely be held accountable for their actions, but so should the significant portion of the general public who feel it acceptable to aid in pushing them over that ledge. Do you really see nothing wrong in what that civilian did?

Of course it isn’t the only reason for high levels of attrition, but it’s a prevalent one. It’s well documented nursing and teaching are two sectors struggling to recruit and maintain employees, yet policing trumps them both. Is it any surprise? What other job is there that is so heavily scrutinised, so stressful and unappreciated, that has such a woefully poor level of financial reward? As seen by posts and posters here, many consciously view them as a gang, and will treat them with derision. But hey, they’ve had training and they’ve got a tin badge, so we should expect them to exist within their role without any emotion.

Incessant goading, aggression and the characterisation as thugs, rapists and crooks, shouldn’t be acceptable behaviour just because they aren’t being paid a modest wage packet. And when you do invariably get this reaction from some officers, as we all know those kinds of actions produce, pointing the finger solely at the officers and not the instigators of such instances shouldn’t be encouraged, either.
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I haven't said the civilian did nothing wrong, I was responding to you asking "who the feck does that" as if it was his actions that were inexplainable in the video, and I made a guess as to why someone would act so unpredictably, when to an outsider it makes no sense to act in that way.
Neither of us are ever going to know why he reacted the way he did, but these things don't happen in isolation. In the same way police officers don't react violently because of an isolated incident.

Police officers are able to quit if they no longer enjoy their job, and move on with their life - PTSD, anxiety and other mental health ailments are likely to be a by-product of being on the job, particularly if they've been in highly stressed situations. I think everyone understands and accepts that.

However, civilians are unable to escape the trauma caused by police officers because they (or the ones they love) can't opt out of being targeted by cops, and are unlikely to see any financial reward for misconduct caused against them. These things get compounded by their family members and witnesses. This doesn't get talked about, this doesn't get addressed, and civilians are just expected to continue to act normally in these situations.

In fact, the fact that police attrition is so high, and you're suggesting that it's prevalent due to trauma, even though police officers aren't the most harmed party in a confrontation with civilians - surely you should accept that the trauma that civilians are affected by is much higher, and is also unappreciated?
Yet they are expected to act within reason and comply without being triggered, without training, without compromise and are unlikely to get any retribution for any wrong-doings the police officers do. If a civilian acts wrongly, the police officer is justified in arresting him though. And we've seen judgements where police officers have been justified in choking, body slamming, and killing civilians. Justified.

There's statistics that back up a portion of police officers that are thugs, that do rape, that do lie, and more often than not get away with it.
It's not like we're making things up.
Myself, afro & billy (plus more i'm sure) have spoken of our (or our family members) incidents with police officers, every few days there's a new video evidence of police officers acting wrongly, and most of that doesn't get posted in here - I see things on my twitter TL almost daily and I have almost no urge to post them here because I accept that a lot of people won't understand what it's like to hold resentment towards the very people who are sworn to protect you, but discrimination is so systemic and embedded within government institutions that government employees are justified in acting unreasonably towards you, and there's nothing you can do about it.
 
villain said:
I haven't said the civilian did nothing wrong, I was responding to you asking "who the feck does that" as if it was his actions that were inexplainable in the video, and I made a guess as to why someone would act so unpredictably, when to an outsider it makes no sense to act in that way.
Neither of us are ever going to know why he reacted the way he did, but these things don't happen in isolation. In the same way police officers don't react violently because of an isolated incident.

Police officers are able to quit if they no longer enjoy their job, and move on with their life - PTSD, anxiety and other mental health ailments are likely to be a by-product of being on the job, particularly if they've been in highly stressed situations. I think everyone understands and accepts that.

However, civilians are unable to escape the trauma caused by police officers because they (or the ones they love) can't opt out of being targeted by cops, and are unlikely to see any financial reward for misconduct caused against them. These things get compounded by their family members and witnesses. This doesn't get talked about, this doesn't get addressed, and civilians are just expected to continue to act normally in these situations.

In fact, the fact that police attrition is so high, and you're suggesting that it's prevalent due to trauma, even though police officers aren't the most harmed party in a confrontation with civilians - surely you should accept that the trauma that civilians are affected by is much higher, and is also unappreciated?
Yet they are expected to act within reason and comply without being triggered, without training, without compromise and are unlikely to get any retribution for any wrong-doings the police officers do. If a civilian acts wrongly, the police officer is justified in arresting him though. And we've seen judgements where police officers have been justified in choking, body slamming, and killing civilians. Justified.

There's statistics that back up a portion of police officers that are thugs, that do rape, that do lie, and more often than not get away with it.
It's not like we're making things up.
Myself, afro & billy (plus more i'm sure) have spoken of our (or our family members) incidents with police officers, every few days there's a new video evidence of police officers acting wrongly, and most of that doesn't get posted in here - I see things on my twitter TL almost daily and I have almost no urge to post them here because I accept that a lot of people won't understand what it's like to hold resentment towards the very people who are sworn to protect you, but discrimination is so systemic and embedded within government institutions that government employees are justified in acting unreasonably towards you, and there's nothing you can do about it.
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It certainly seems as though you are looking to somewhat justify it. The thing is this civilian wasn’t being targeted, I doubt he even in line of sight of the officer. He actively included himself in that situation, marched across the road with fists clenched, drew the reaction he wanted from the officer and then made a play to challenge the officers authority. This wasn’t an arbitrary incident of stop and search, it was a response to shots fired, and so naturally the police will arrive in number, with guns, on high alert. The situation seemed to be entirely calm up until this civilian acted. He has created it and you’re doing your best to find justification for it.

I think you’re underestimating the long term affects of PTSD, mental health issues and anxiety if you think it’s as simple as quitting your job and moving on. The tag of being a pig doesn’t disappear with your resignation either.

Please don’t think I’m stubbornly defending policing as an entirety, or that I’m downplaying clear evidence of systemic discrimination, or that some civilians are rightfully fearful or cautious of officers, or that your personal examples are anything other than wholly true. I’m not. There needs to be serious changes in the way policing is approached, particularly in the US, and the instances of racism, sexism, rape, and general abuse of officers powers are far too common to be ignored. That doesn’t excuse this type of action/reaction from the general public however, and that shouldn’t be accepted.
 
ivaldo said:
It certainly seems as though you are looking to somewhat justify it. The thing is this civilian wasn’t being targeted, I doubt he even in line of sight of the officer. He actively included himself in that situation, marched across the road with fists clenched, drew the reaction he wanted from the officer and then made a play to challenge the officers authority. This wasn’t an arbitrary incident of stop and search, it was a response to shots fired, and so naturally the police will arrive in number, with guns, on high alert. The situation seemed to be entirely calm up until this civilian acted. He has created it and you’re doing your best to find justification for it.

I think you’re underestimating the long term affects of PTSD, mental health issues and anxiety if you think it’s as simple as quitting your job and moving on. The tag of being a pig doesn’t disappear with your resignation either.

Please don’t think I’m stubbornly defending policing as an entirety, or that I’m downplaying clear evidence of systemic discrimination, or that some civilians are rightfully fearful or cautious of officers, or that your personal examples are anything other than wholly true. I’m not. There needs to be serious changes in the way policing is approached, particularly in the US, and the instances of racism, sexism, rape, and general abuse of officers powers are far too common to be ignored. That doesn’t excuse this type of action/reaction from the general public however, and that shouldn’t be accepted.
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I've said 3 times now that i'm making a guess as to why he acted in the way he did, and I've saying 2 times now that I never said it wasn't wrong or i'm justifying it. So i'm not sure why you keep repeating that, but I see no reason in saying it over again.
Retelling the events that happened doesn't change the fact that neither of us are ever going to know why, but I think it's reasonable to assume this is unlikely to be the first time he's been witness to police officers, either direct or indirectly (through mediums such as twitter), therefore his actions aren't an isolated incident and shouldn't be scrutinised as if he acted for no reason and without any context or without any triggers. That's all.

I'm not underestimating the affects of PTSD at all, i'm acknowledging that officers suffer from it - i'm simply saying that as a result of their trauma they are able to leave their profession and don't have to directly be involved in such triggering events.
If you live in a neighbourhood that is over-policed, or you've lost a family member, or you yourself have been a victim of police brutality, what resolution do you have to your trauma? What escape do you have?
Being targeted for the way you look doesn't disappear at any point in your life either, which is kinda the point I was making & i'm sure you're not comparing being called a pig versus being discriminated against because of race or class, so I won't address that.

The action/reaction from the general public is decades-worth of build up.
At this point, an immovable object has met an unstoppable force - and both sides are unlikely to fold. Police reform is something that should've happened years ago, but is unlikely to ever be implemented nationwide (in the US) because in order to reform the police you have to reform the government, reform prison institutions and address the systemic issues that exist within all branches.
And frankly, the people in power don't care to do that because it doesn't affect them. Their neighbourhoods aren't policed in the same way, their family members aren't at risk, and they see the people in poor neighbourhoods as animals & criminals who deserve to be treated in that way.

Do I think police officers do an impossible job? Yes because I think police officers are simply a reflection of the institution they serve - and even therefore officers who came into the profession with good intentions can leave disillusioned and be deterred from doing good because it will affect their livelihood & sanity. (see the Philadelphia bombings story I posted a few pages back where a police officer helped a child who had been bombed by his colleagues, and quit because those same colleagues bullied him and calling him a 'N word' lover on his locker)
Does that mean they shouldn't be criticised? Nope, sorry because the victims are often voiceless, and thanks to things like twitter they can finally have a voice.
The police serve the general public, and the public should have a right to voice concern or anger at the actions taken by the people who are paid to protect them.

Let it be clear, I don't have an issue with police officers or people who decide to be police officers - every one has to pay their bills. I don't have any personal issue with skizzo or choi.
My issue comes from the system which has allowed misconduct, racism, rape & murder to be normalised, and disproportionately affect minorities - that is unacceptable and I will continue to call it out and criticise it whenever I see it, and I see nothing wrong with that.
 


4 of these fecking pig bastards

And what kind of culture exists at the department for these kind of people to remain employed? How do they feel empowered to act like this in broad daylight if they are just bad apples
 
Eboue said:


4 of these fecking pig bastards

And what kind of culture exists at the department for these kind of people to remain employed? How do they feel empowered to act like this in broad daylight if they are just bad apples
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Surely that level of aggressive swearing would be enough to get a reprimand, before the whole sentiments of it being a pointless pursuit came to light.
 
How do these things actually happen. It looks like a scene from a dystopian science fiction movie where an evil regime took over the world.
 
KirkDuyt said:
How do these things actually happen. It looks like a scene from a dystopian science fiction movie where an evil regime took over the world.
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These things happen all the time in 2019 in major cities when police know fully that they could be filmed at any time. Just close your eyes for a minute and try to imagine the atrocities and the horror they inflicted on people in rural Alabama in the 19th century. Or pretty much anywhere. This stuff has always happened, even to a worse degree, it's just now we have video proof.
 
Eboue said:


4 of these fecking pig bastards

And what kind of culture exists at the department for these kind of people to remain employed? How do they feel empowered to act like this in broad daylight if they are just bad apples
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The 4 year old should have just complied straight away and it would have been fine.
 
Eboue said:


4 of these fecking pig bastards

And what kind of culture exists at the department for these kind of people to remain employed? How do they feel empowered to act like this in broad daylight if they are just bad apples
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Exactly what I mean by trauma caused by the police, it's a fecking joke.
This wont show up on any statistics or analytics, but the people involved won't ever forget it.

This type of thing is every fecking day too, it's exhausting.
 
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