This is good and a path that the US should follow.
To be fair, I've read that only a few million people (something like 7-8 million) own half of those 300 million guns. I can confirm its hard to have just one.
Cop in America doing a bad job, again
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This is good and a path that the US should follow.
To be fair, I've read that only a few million people (something like 7-8 million) own half of those 300 million guns. I can confirm its hard to have just one.
Yes a lot of the weapons are owned by a small number of people, but the fact that there are so many loose weapons still creates a massive problem. If this was a society where guns were tightly regulated then there would be far less for cops to deal with and the individual security dilemma for both sides would be reduced.
No. There's no direct correlation between rape and the huge amounts of gun crime in the US I can see?
People were talking about guns, criminality and cops. You're now on about rape?
police officers in america commit all sorts of crimes and i think reducing guns that civilians own will only affect a fraction of those violent acts (situations where they are scared for their life). i think a larger problem is abusive and criminal behavior by the police in situations where they hold a huge power imbalance and are almost never held accountable.
Yeah I'll have it but the conversation was about guns hence my thoughts. Not sure why you have to be so argumentative and inflammatory.
Same thing with police brutality and lawlessness. It's always been there but we're seeing more now. You just seem to think it's logical because they are scared of criminals.
We are seeing more because we have devices that can record and publish incidents for all to see, not necessarily because its happening more.
Think it's clear this thread is not for any meaningful discussion. The minute you post you get jumped on. It's like some weird cult.
As you are.
As you are.
I'm pretty sure that's what I just said.
Does the concept of judicial discretion exist in the UK ?
With regards to sentencing?
Its a concept whereby police officers are given "judicial discretion" when they are doing their jobs where they are allowed to decide whether or not to pursue an incident depending on the circumstances. Example - when a cop pulls a person over for a traffic violation, they have the option of writing them a ticket, writing them a warning, (or possibly) take no action at all. The cop is empowered with a degree of "judicial discretion" as to whether or not he/she will take action or not. It can be applied to a much more complex set of scenarios which can somewhat insulate them from legal culpability if something goes wrong.
More here - https://www.lawteacher.net/free-law...-justice-systems-administrative-law-essay.php
and here https://thelawdictionary.org/article/police-discretion-definition/
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Yes. Officers can use discretion in low level instances. Due to limited police resources a larger emphasis in dealing with, and prioritising, incidents of the greatest risk and not investigating those which are seen as a poor use of resources and not in the public interest is now common.
That said such decisions are reserved for supervision. A patrol officer would use their discretion when dealing with road traffic the majority of the time.
I'm just wondering if the concept of discretion, if deployed in armed situations, can wind up being more of a hindrance to a stable resolution or whether it actually encourages armed confrontation. If a police officer believes that most of his/her decisions are legally protected then it would seem they are more likely to confront suspects.
Not a direct apples to apples comparison, but there’s evidence of this being the case in “free fire zones”, isn’t there?
Kind of Judge Dredd like..
True. I'd reckon the estimates of the number of guns in the US is off by 10-20 million easily, maybe more. With more regulation you might end up like Canada.
You've made 74 posts in this thread so spare me. I tried to discuss the issue of cops, in america, doing a bad job and you arent interested in engaging. That's fine but come down off that cross
Mate, you didn’t understand his point, that’s all. He was clear in his intention that police incompetence goes far beyond shooting people, because if does - as many people have pointed out in this thread. Therefore limiting conversation to incidents where they act unreasonably due to the presence of civilians with guns doesn’t paint the full picture. Most people who have an issue with police, have one for reasons other than them killing someone, but abusing their power through things like stop and search, sexual assault, actual assault, threats of violence etc.
He was actually having a clear and concise discussion and for some reason you got upset about it and decided it’s a cult, and you were jumped on, truly remarkable.
This. The law enforcement agencies must be taught some grappling. Think the Rener Gracie academy has classes for cops.
Mate, you didn’t understand his point, that’s all. He was clear in his intention that police incompetence goes far beyond shooting people, because if does - as many people have pointed out in this thread. Therefore limiting conversation to incidents where they act unreasonably due to the presence of civilians with guns doesn’t paint the full picture. Most people who have an issue with police, have one for reasons other than them killing someone, but abusing their power through things like stop and search, sexual assault, actual assault, threats of violence etc.
He was actually having a clear and concise discussion and for some reason you got upset about it and decided it’s a cult, and you were jumped on, truly remarkable.
I'm not sure you understood really. The conversation being had was about firearms in general, the law and how many unaccounted ones there are on the streets. I explained there's a clear issue in the US regarding gun culture in everyone (cops and the public) and addressing that would solve the majority of issues.
Obviously it won't solve every bit of misconduct and criminality in existence within your police departments throughout the country. That would be silly.
He should maybe try and make points with a little more class. I genuinely don't think many in this thread want an interesting discussion they just want to rant and rave.
this is nonsense backtracking. heres your post, with my bolding added.
and here is the post directly above yours.
it was never a discussion entirely about guns and the obvious reponse that both grinner and i made is that there are other issues with police brutality that arent directly attributable to guns. if you dont want to engage in discussion thats fine, but dont pretend like you are just here to chat and be open minded. you have your opinion based on your biases and life experiences and i have my opinion based on my biases and life experiences. its unlikely we will ever reach a common understanding.
Because it's a fecking emotive subject for some of us, maybe not for you?
Oh do feck off with that persecution complex. Either engage or don't. It's an emotive subject so expect some people to be emotional, yourself included.
Don't enter the thread then. Can't believe what I'm hearing from you tbh.... Try to look at things from a different perspective every now and again. World would be a better place for it if more people did that.
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And as for the gun arguement. That's not changing anytime soon is it? So how about more funding and training like I mentioned before @Raoul put it all on the US gun culture. Or is that equally as unlikely?
Textbook CE forum argument. Everyone taking completely binary positions. Police brutality has to be down to cops feeling threatened by an increasingly heavily armed populace or it has to because police are “sociopaths feted by society and never held accountable”. Nothing in between. Only one or the other will do, depending what prejudices/preconceptions you bring to the table.
I don't feel you, and others, try to discuss it. That's the issue. Just bumping the thread with random articles is hardly a discussion. The pattern of this thread is as follows;
1) post article about police brutality
2) abuse cops
3) ignore anyone who disagrees or round up on them
4) move on
This is true to a degree. I am from the UK and the public don't have the same issues (on such a scale) with the police. Part of that reason in my opinion is to do with the culture surrounding firearms. No that doesnt account for other instances of misconduct but I would suggest it all plays a part. This applies to both cops and the public.
Because it's a fecking emotive subject for some of us, maybe not for you?
Oh do feck off with that persecution complex. Either engage or don't. It's an emotive subject so expect some people to be emotional, yourself included.
Don't enter the thread then. Can't believe what I'm hearing from you tbh.... Try to look at things from a different perspective every now and again. World would be a better place for it if more people did that.
Yes because telling me to feck off is really proves my point of how intolerant this thread is..
The thread should welcome other opinions. Opinions which are quite valid given they are evidence based and not purely thrown out subjectively.
And yeah it's an emotive subject for me given I've had colleagues shot dead.
I tried finding stats on killings by cop in the US to see if the numbers correlate with the increasing number of guns in the community. Turns out they don’t even properly keep track. Which is disgraceful.
I understood it quite well, I suggest you read the conversation between the two of you again, because you called him argumentative & inflammatory out of nowhere, and he was presenting a valid argument.
It appears to me that you take issue with him suggesting that there are police officers who abuse their powers, and it not only being because American citizens are so heavily armed.
There have been plenty of discussions in this thread over the years.
In recent weeks there's been a lot of incidents that have been posted with not much discussion, but the reason for that is a lot of those incidents have shown a clear abuse of power by the police officer involved, and thus there's not much debate to be had - and even then nobody is ranting and raving about it.
Unless you can post examples to justify your argument?
This thread is emotive because a lot of us have dealt with aggressive police officers, or have friends/family members who have been victims themselves, then you have actual police officers who obviously have their own point of view, then you have others who have only had positive experiences with police officers, and may struggle to believe the police can be anything other than a force for good.
With that much of a mix of people involved it's bound to be emotive.
I don't think that this has been binary at all, only 1 person has said police brutality is down to the American gun culture 'full stop' (in his own words) and another person has called them sociopaths who are never held accountable.
From what I can see everyone else involved in this has been discussing a range of issues, causes and ways to try and fix the problem. The discussion was largely centred around the Armed society of America because Raoul introduced it, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that, that's the only reason behind the issues, well except TheReligion apparently.
I think it has a massive part to play yes. I didn't say every single piece of misconduct is down to that. Does it really have to be that black or white?
And no I take issue with the way @Eboue, and others to be fair to him, seem to think discussion works.
I could spam this thread with lots of positive articles regarding the police. It wouldn't mean I was adding anything.
You literally said "Everyone knows the issue is the American gun culture full stop. Change that and everything else improves with it." and ignored the fact that the police have a history of being brutal and abusing their power for over 100 years (when the American citizens weren't anywhere near as heavily armed) which was pointed out by Grinner & Afro. Eboue may have had less tact in the way he spoke about the subject but he wasn't wrong.
Spamming the thread with positive things the police do, doesn't really do anything does it?
Everyone expects the police to do positive things, that's what they're paid for, it doesn't take away the fact that thousands of them every year abuse their power.
Nor does spamming the thread about everything they do wrong?
The police are representative of the people. The people are obsessed with firearms, the right to bear arms and have to qualms about taking a life if they feel it's justified. You have young children being taught how to use guns in some states and a general attitude with is archaic. It's an extreme but Sacha Baron Cohen's show highlighted what we already know.
Forget police v citizens for a minute. They are both the same. The issues are much more deep rooted in my opinion looking in.
Well you come in and post a bit then get upset when people don't agree with you so you call it an echo chamber and then slink off. Rinse and repeat. Great contribution.
It annoys me because as soon as people start getting uncomfortable or hearing things they don't want to hear they start belittling/downplaying and throwing out the usual terms like echo chamber etc...
Either stay and put forth arguements and discussion to juxtapose against this 'echo chamber' or do one instead of moaning and then disappearing... That's my 2 pence.
The thread isn't spammed with everything that they do wrong, the thread only really posts about police when they kill someone.
There's plenty of issues of police when they choke some, arrest little kids, sexually assault sex workers etc - so there's plenty of stuff that is omitted from this thread, but I digress.
You're stuck on this idea that the American obsession with firearms is the only reason why police are out of control. I agree that the thought that any criminal you are dealing with may be armed makes it tougher to remedy some situations.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smit...history-police-brutality-in-the-us-180964098/
I suggest you read this - it speaks about behaviour of police in the last 100 years which involves hosing people, getting police dogs to attack them, beating people of coulour half to death in their own neighbourhoods etc - and this is in the 30s.
You can't suggest that the police in the 30s were 'scared' that people were armed to their teeth can you? Or the average American was obsessed with firearms?
Also this is a good read; http://harvardpolitics.com/online/s...on-viewing-police-brutality-data-driven-lens/
It speaks to the massive racial disparities when incidents of police brutality occur too.
I'd argue that gun owners are majority white, yet the victims of police brutality are often black and unarmed - in fact most victims of police brutality are unarmed.
I don't disagree that it's police are representative of the citizens - but that being true doesn't take away from the deep rooted issues at all, and it's not simplistic to just suggest that un-arming everyone in America would suddenly decrease police brutality.
I'll talk with whatever attitude I want to thank you. You may be police out on road but not on here....
You're making yourself look silly mate. That's all.
I'll certainly have a read of those articles when I can get a minute later on.
I'm not stuck on any specific idea though, was simply giving my opinion on one of the key reasons I think there's issues.