Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Y'all seem confused and that's fair maybe I haven't been clear.
I don't see what's so controversial about what I said. No, guns shouldn't have been involved. No, she should not have been tased. Yes, the officer was within his rights to force her off the train if she is breaking the rules and causing a disturbance.

Some of you are arguing against what you think I'm saying while agreeing with what I'm saying.... Redcafe.

My point in a nut shell is that it was handled pretty much on point so its sad to then see in this thread people talking about the case for more aggression or fire arms, even if in jest.

FWIW my daughter is a cheeky so and so, as is most of my family, that's kinda our thing. So what if their cheeky, are we punishing them for the offense or because they were cheeky? I've seen people be really fcuking cheeky and police do nothing and I've seen people try to be polite and compliant and get beat so you know....
 
afrocentricity said:
Basically, to cut this all short. I'm watching the video and seeing a teenage be annoying teenager, I didn't see huge amounts of force so I have no problem with it based on what I saw. I had a problem with some of the shit comments following it that were either 'she needed sorting out' or 'he should have taking or his gun'.

I'm imagining it being my daughter and thinking yeah that's annoying but you're all cnuts.... Some will say they were joking and I believe that. But lets not make out I'm going off on one for criticising your shite hot takes....

Our resident PO has said nothing other than he thinks it was handled well. No mention of guns or what else should have been done....
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If that was my daughter I’d be fecking mortified and horrified that I’d done such a shitty job raising her. Luckily I can’t even begin to imagine a scenario where she is so adamant she won’t take her feet off a train seat that a cop needs to be called. Because she’s not a horrific, entitled brat.
 
NotworkSte said:
I have a daughter. I like to think she would never have been this argumentative. However if this were her, I would still believe the officers response was measured and appropriate.
Pulling a gun? Throwing her to the ground? Kneeing in the back? Punching in the back of the head? Absolutely overuse of force, none of that was here. There was no emotional anger from this cop, no aggression except what was required, verbal attempts to de-escalate.

i don't understand what you are looking for in this situation? Let's make no rules or enforce none, where does that end? And at what point should we address this self entitled attitude that I can do what I want and get angry if anyone says otherwise, and if that doesn't work, play the race card.
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A simple bit of social engineering goes a long way in situations like this.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
If that was my daughter I’d be fecking mortified and horrified that I’d done such a shitty job raising her. Luckily I can’t even begin to imagine a scenario where she is so adamant she won’t take her feet off a train seat that a cop needs to be called. Because she’s not a horrific, entitled brat.
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Lucky you mate. I'm sure her parents thought the same up until the other day. My daughter probably wouldn't (I say probably because let's face it, as if we really 100% know) either. I know there was a time when I might have tho, I can think of others too. Teenagers are weird, they bunk off, they steal shit, they argue with elders, they get into trouble.... Lucky you. Of course they/we all grow out of it.... I'd like them to get a bit of leeway until then tho.

Gotta say tho your child putting their feet up on public transport or getting into trouble isn't necessarily indicative of your parenting. There are parents who do all the right things and their kids turn out to be terrors and there as absentee parents who's children turn off to be great. There's a lot more to it... You should know that.
 
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afrocentricity said:
Y'all seem confused and that's fair maybe I haven't been clear.
I don't see what's so controversial about what I said. No, guns shouldn't have been involved. No, she should not have been tased. Yes, the officer was within his rights to force her off the train if she is breaking the rules and causing a disturbance.

Some of you are arguing against what you think I'm saying while agreeing with what I'm saying.... Redcafe.

My point in a nut shell is that it was handled pretty much on point so its sad to then see in this thread people talking about the case for more aggression or fire arms, even if in jest.

FWIW my daughter is a cheeky so and so, as is most of my family, that's kinda our thing. So what if their cheeky, are we punishing them for the offense or because they were cheeky? I've seen people be really fcuking cheeky and police do nothing and I've seen people try to be polite and compliant and get beat so you know....
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No you haven't been clear at all, we can only reply to your words not what's in your head after all.

That last line is pretty incredible logic. If you had finished the sentence you might see how that kind of thinking is silly.
 
Desert Eagle said:
No you haven't been clear at all, we can only reply to your words not what's in your head after all.

That last line is pretty incredible logic. If you had finished the sentence you might see how that kind of thinking is silly.
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Its not logical, its not my thinking, its what I've seen. Its not even to do with the post, its an observation. Yes it is silly...

As for the rest, my posts have been clear afaik. I've stated my position multiple times, I realise text conversation leaves more room for confusion but which part of 'He shouldn't have drawn a gun', 'he handled it correctly' and 'stroppy teenager being a stroppy teenager' is unclear or confusing? I despair....

For real, what is your point anyway?
 
My point is you built up a strawman to argue against and chose to ignore/not understand repeated attempts to point that out. Reread the 6 posts you quoted as problematic. Then see how you misinterpreted them in your replies. Lets try to debate points honestly and less emotionally. Lets not act like obvious jokes are meant completely seriously It helps no one when people misrepresent what other people said. Anyways I apologise if it comes across as me nitpicking or being rude. Don't want to harp on this any longer.
 
Desert Eagle said:
My point is you built up a strawman to argue against and chose to ignore/not understand repeated attempts to point that out. Reread the 6 posts you quoted as problematic. Then see how you misinterpreted them in your replies. Lets try to debate points honestly and less emotionally. Lets not act like obvious jokes are meant completely seriously It helps no one when people misrepresent what other people said. Anyways I apologise if it comes across as me nitpicking or being rude. Don't want to harp on this any longer.
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There is no strawman. I aimed my post at people claiming he would have been within his rights to draw his gun. There's no shade of grey here you either agree or disagree, you and others are telling me that noone disagree with that so why are we arguing? I haven't misinterpreted the posts I quoted, I quoted a bunch of posts and said some of them were disappointing.
afrocentricity said:
Some will say they were joking and I believe that.
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You're talking about me misrepresenting what others have said while misrepresenting what I have said.

If no one disagrees that it was handled well and guns/tasers were not needed, what is the problem here? Jokes aside this is a serious thread about a serious problem.... One that I don't tend to see the funny side of.
 
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Desert Eagle said:
Nobody is saying the cop should have pulled the gun on the train. What those posters are referencing is the situation outside the train when the cop was trying to handcuff her while being surrounded by people cursing and threatening him. In a country like America with all it's police and gun issues, we've seen guns drawn for much much less. Nobody is saying he should have drawn his firearm from what I've read just that the situation was volatile and if the cop felt threatened he could have been justified in drawing his gun. The reason people are praising the officer is because he managed to stay calm and in control where others might have panicked.

Some of those posts you quoted are clearly taking the piss.
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Well said
 
Based on that video, if the officer had drawn his gun, he would have been in the wrong.
 
afrocentricity said:
Lucky you mate. I'm sure her parents thought the same up until the other day. My daughter probably wouldn't (I say probably because let's face it, as if we really 100% know) either. I know there was a time when I might have tho, I can think of others too. Teenagers are weird, they bunk off, they steal shit, they argue with elders, they get into trouble.... Lucky you. Of course they/we all grow out of it.... I'd like them to get a bit of leeway until then tho.

Gotta say tho your child putting their feet up on public transport or getting into trouble isn't necessarily indicative of your parenting. There are parents who do all the right things and their kids turn out to be terrors and there as absentee parents who's children turn off to be great. There's a lot more to it... You should know that.
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All that any of us can do is teach our kids a sense of right and wrong and accept that they will eventually push boundaries. Like I said, though, if any of my kids ever ended up putting their feet up on a train seat and refusing to take them down when asked to by a cop I would feel like I’d failed as a parent. Whether or not that is the case. One thing’s for certain I’d have been 100% on the cop’s side if I saw that video and god help her when she gets home.
 
afrocentricity said:
My thoughts too.
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I guess we're part of the strange group of society that thinks drawing your weapon on two teenagers because they are arguing with you over one of them having their feet on a seat in a train is excessive. He did the right thing, got her off the train, deescalated the situation, called for backup and made his arrests. Personally I think the whole business is a waste of police time but again, maybe that's just me.
 
Once more, people were saying that due to the somewhat hostile crowd that could have developed into a dangerous situation for a single officer and he MAY have been justified in drawing his gun sometime in the future, and that would have been due to the girl acting so poorly and enflaming the situation.

It’s called a hypothetical situation.

Stop making reductive and offensive summaries about things people aren’t saying and actually read the words they said!
 
From what we can see in the video there's not even a principle being defended so I find it difficult to support her. The whole thing gets insane but it begins with her. There are accusations of racism by the cop but nothing so far as we can see indicates any.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
All that any of us can do is teach our kids a sense of right and wrong and accept that they will eventually push boundaries. Like I said, though, if any of my kids ever ended up putting their feet up on a train seat and refusing to take them down when asked to by a cop I would feel like I’d failed as a parent. Whether or not that is the case. One thing’s for certain I’d have been 100% on the cop’s side if I saw that video and god help her when she gets home.
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:lol:

Yea you can't help questioning your parenting in these situations. I've got one teenager so I'm fully aware of their double lives. Luckily I've done the lot so I'm a bit more savvy to the signs and pitfalls. Good manners and not being an embarrassing arse in public were taught much much earlier ;)

Duafc said:
Once more, people were saying that due to the somewhat hostile crowd that could have developed into a dangerous situation he MAY have been justified in drawing his gun sometime in the future, and that would have been due to the girl acting so poorly and enflaming the situation.

It’s called a hypothetical situation.

Stop making reductive and offensive summaries about things people aren’t saying and actually read the words they said!
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Y'all realise you're staying the obvious right? I disagree with the conclusion, I saw nothing in that video that lead me to believe a gun was needed then or in the future (am I supposed to extrapolate how it was all going to play out to get to that point?). Here lies the disagreement.... Not some straw man BS or shite about me misreading posts.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
All that any of us can do is teach our kids a sense of right and wrong and accept that they will eventually push boundaries. Like I said, though, if any of my kids ever ended up putting their feet up on a train seat and refusing to take them down when asked to by a cop I would feel like I’d failed as a parent. Whether or not that is the case. One thing’s for certain I’d have been 100% on the cop’s side if I saw that video and god help her when she gets home.
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I don't think it is a parenting issue tbh. Do you see videos like this often in your country? I think they are very specific to the states and has more to do with the general public sentiment towards cops.
 
afrocentricity said:
How about we don't advocate escalating the situation by involving guns, feckinell. How about we err on the side of least possible escalation and violence?
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You mean exactly how the cop handled it which most of us are saying he did fine. More importantly is the two women should not have behaved like idiots then the there would have been no situation. Importantly don't crowd police officers when they are doing their job. Don't spit on them and try to claim racism when you are entirely to blame for the situation you find yourself in. There's real racism we need to fix in the US, this particular case does not seem to be one of them.
 
Duafc said:
Once more, people were saying that due to the somewhat hostile crowd that could have developed into a dangerous situation for a single officer and he MAY have been justified in drawing his gun sometime in the future, and that would have been due to the girl acting so poorly and enflaming the situation.

It’s called a hypothetical situation.

Stop making reductive and offensive summaries about things people aren’t saying and actually read the words they said!
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Grinner said:
Those people around him were threatening enough that I could see him thinking about drawing and he'd be perfectly justified.
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No mention of if the situation got worse or in the future or whatever it seems now some of you claim to have been saying. The quote says the people around him were threatening enough not were becoming threating enough or whatever you claim people were saying and that he'd be justified in drawing in that situation, not some hypothetical situation that now you're claiming people were talking about. I can only take people at the words they choose to use, if they meant something else, they should say that. As far as being insulted, the only person in this discussion who has been called stupid and told they can't read is me.
 
entropy said:
I don't think it is a parenting issue tbh. Do you see videos like this often in your country? I think they are very specific to the states and has more to do with the general public sentiment towards cops.
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Happens here too mate (UK). On buses, trains, etc... For all sorts of reasons. Difference is that it gets handled just like it was handled here, maybe slightly less forcefully if being filmed, and nobody gets a pat on the back because its looked at as normal. No one advocating tasers or fire arms, anyway...
JustAFan said:
You mean exactly how the cop handled it which most of us are saying he did fine.
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Yes, exactly. We mostly are aren't we?
JustAFan said:
More importantly is the two women should not have behaved like idiots then the there would have been no situation. Importantly don't crowd police officers when they are doing their job. Don't spit on them and try to claim racism when you are entirely to blame for the situation you find yourself in. There's real racism we need to fix in the US, this particular case does not seem to be one of them.
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Nobody is talking about race. Its more about how this could have played out and how it did play out. I'd have thought that in this thread we'd all be happy there were no guns involved. Are we all happy?
 
@afrocentricity & @freeurmind I really can’t be bothered but I felt it was totally obvious what those 2 or 3 posters meant, it is totally valid to consider that a single officer dealing with a hostile person and a difficult crowd has to be very careful about his actions as there is a clear risk of it going very poorly.

Perhaps they said it in a matter of fact and slightly comical way that sounded worse than was meant however once it was clarified you both continued to use very positive language like ‘should’ instead of the intended ‘could’.

As in all these feckers saying she ‘should’ have had a gun drawn on her are weird.

That wasn’t close to the point being made and even when that’s been clarified there’s been no understanding.

If you don’t think any situation can arise from that video where further force is required then i’d like to live in your world. It wouldn’t even be accurate in the UK never mind the states. But that’s a whole other discussion.
 
van der star said:
I always wanted to work in the states as a specialist, for a few years, but as a brown guy who sports a beard for most of the year, I don't fancy my chances, looking at all this info. On a similar note, the girl in this video is silly and should have been reprimanded but who the flip arrests a couple of people over something as trivial as putting your feet on the seats in a train?!?!?!

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Yeah I see nothing wrong here. She'll get a summons for disorderly conduct and that'll be the end of that.
 
Duafc said:
@afrocentricity & @freeurmind I really can’t be bothered but I felt it was totally obvious what those 2 or 3 posters meant, it is totally valid to consider that a single officer dealing with a hostile person and a difficult crowd has to be very careful about his actions as there is a clear risk of it going very poorly.

Perhaps they said it in a matter of fact and slightly comical way that sounded worse than was meant however once it was clarified you both continued to use very positive language like ‘should’ instead of the intended ‘could’.

As in all these feckers saying she ‘should’ have had a gun drawn on her are weird.

That wasn’t close to the point being made and even when that’s been clarified there’s been no understanding.

If you don’t think any situation can arise from that video where further force is required then i’d like to live in your world. It wouldn’t even be accurate in the UK never mind the states. But that’s a whole other discussion.
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Probably best to just draw a line under this discussion.
 
freeurmind said:
I guess we're part of the strange group of society that thinks drawing your weapon on two teenagers because they are arguing with you over one of them having their feet on a seat in a train is excessive. He did the right thing, got her off the train, deescalated the situation, called for backup and made his arrests. Personally I think the whole business is a waste of police time but again, maybe that's just me.
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That too, over here once they had been removed from the train the police probably would have gone about their business.... Full on arrest for that? I don't know...

Does seem like this is one of those things where I'm destined to disagree with certain posters on
Duafc said:
@afrocentricity & @freeurmind I really can’t be bothered but I felt it was totally obvious what those 2 or 3 posters meant, it is totally valid to consider that a single officer dealing with a hostile person and a difficult crowd has to be very careful about his actions as there is a clear risk of it going very poorly.

Perhaps they said it in a matter of fact and slightly comical way that sounded worse than was meant however once it was clarified you both continued to use very positive language like ‘should’ instead of the intended ‘could’.

As in all these feckers saying she ‘should’ have had a gun drawn on her are weird.

That wasn’t close to the point being made and even when that’s been clarified there’s been no understanding.

If you don’t think any situation can arise from that video where further force is required then i’d like to live in your world. It wouldn’t even be accurate in the UK never mind the states. But that’s a whole other discussion.
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I was with you until the end. Why am I supposed to try and imagine a situation where a gun or whatever else would be warranted? What's wrong with forming an opinion on the video and the facts that we have why do I have to imagine or predict the future?

As for people getting upset about their posts being misread maybe they could have cleared up what they meant? If it was said in jest and its not something they actually believe then just say that and move on. I've already accepted that in the post where I actually quoted them, and then again in another post. Instead we're here doing the redcafe circular argument thing...

freeurmind said:
Probably best to just draw a line under this discussion.
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True. We mostly seem to be in agreement anyway. I think its more my posting style....
 
afrocentricity said:
I was with you until the end. Why am I supposed to try and imagine a situation where a gun or whatever else would be warranted? What's wrong with forming an opinion on the video and the facts that we have why do I have to imagine or predict the future?
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Nothings wrong with it, but I think if people are going to start a discussion about what may or could have happened it’s unfair to hold them to the previous standard of what actually happened and call them weird or feckwits for wanting everyone shot.

In general life people extrapolate and consider not just what happened but what could have happened if other choices were made, it’s very simple analysis and common in life, love, business and, you guessed it, policing! It’s not unhealthy, it’s prudent to consider how things may work out differently as some day someone will go further or throw up a new challenge. If next time it goes pear shaped on the train and the crowd turns on the officer he can’t necessarily rely on this experience anymore... you know?

To be totally simple about it, it felt like people were coming in and saying I can’t believe you’d want him to draw and shoot!!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! That wasn’t it at all and it’s a little offensive to those posters making the point, albeit the points they were making were made a little offensively.
 
adexkola said:
Yeah I see nothing wrong here. She'll get a summons for disorderly conduct and that'll be the end of that.
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I am curious about the friend though. If you abuse a cop and spit at him, what would be the regular punishment?
 
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Also @afrocentricity in regards to what would happen over here, arrests require strict necessity criteria to pass through custody, obstructing an officer or resisting arrest are a treatable offences but the only really good reason you’d have to is if they were denying name or address, then you can’t deal with them in an easier way and your hand is forced somewhat.

In the process of resisting or obstructing she could have assaulted the officer, over here that would be arrestable, It’s down to the officers discretion but in my experience UK officers actually take quite a lot of violence before they would arrest and proceed with an assault charge. Spitting is another thing altogether and is more likely to be dealt with than simple violence.

In short all of the offences are arrestable but they are pretty low level so most likely wouldn’t end that way however it is down to the officer themselves to justify so the line for one will be different for another.

Also worth bearing in mind a person can be placed under arrest then dealt with down the street, by ticket, street bail or simply by being de arrested. Lots of folks get arrested and never make it near custody.

I think with her attitude I’d like to be proceeding with something but I don’t think there’s necessity to have her in custody, provided I was satisfied I could find her again etc.
 
Desert Eagle said:
I am curious about the friend though. If you abuse a cop and spit at him, what would the regular punishment?
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Spitting on anyone is assault, in the UK at least.

Over here culturally we really view it as worse than a low level physical assault. Obviously there’s a very small risk of infection but it’s more the complete lack of human respect.
 
Duafc said:
Also @afrocentricity in regards to what would happen over here, arrests require strict necessity criteria to pass through custody, obstructing an officer or resisting arrest are a treatable offences but the only really good reason you’d have to is if they were denying name or address, then you can’t deal with them in an easier way and your hand is forced somewhat.

In the process of resisting or obstructing she could have assaulted the officer, over here that would be arrestable, It’s down to the officers discretion but in my experience UK officers actually take quite a lot of violence before they would arrest and proceed with an assault charge. Spitting is another thing altogether and is more likely to be dealt with than simple violence.

In short all of the offences are arrestable but they are pretty low level so most likely wouldn’t end that way however it is down to the officer themselves to justify so the line for one will be different for another.

Also worth bearing in mind a person can be placed under arrest then dealt with down the street, by ticket, street bail or simply by being de arrested. Lots of folks get arrested and never make it near custody.

I think with her attitude I’d like to be proceeding with something but I don’t think there’s necessity to have her in custody, provided I was satisfied I could find her again etc.
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Duafc said:
Nothings wrong with it, but I think if people are going to start a discussion about what may or could have happened it’s unfair to hold them to the previous standard of what actually happened and call them weird or feckwits for wanting everyone shot.

In general life people extrapolate and consider not just what happened but what could have happened if other choices were made, it’s very simple analysis and common in life, love, business and, you guessed it, policing! It’s not unhealthy, it’s prudent to consider how things may work out differently as some day someone will go further or throw up a new challenge. If next time it goes pear shaped on the train and the crowd turns on the officer he can’t necessarily rely on this experience anymore... you know?

To be totally simple about it, it felt like people were coming in and saying I can’t believe you’d want him to draw and shoot!!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhhh!!!!!! That wasn’t it at all and it’s a little offensive to those posters making the point, albeit the points they were making were made a little offensively.
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Yea that's all fair. I guess the difference is when I extrapolate I'm thinking about how it could have been worse had firearms, tasers or more force been involved.

As someone from a country that doesn't escalate to guns so quickly I can only talk about what I know/experience, hence the disagreements sometimes. It is what it is...
 
Duafc said:
Spitting on anyone is assault, in the UK at least.

Over here culturally we really view it as worse than a low level physical assault. Obviously there’s a very small risk of infection but it’s more the complete lack of human respect.
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Yeah i would have assumed some version of assault as well. Goes to show that the friend in her righteous outrage actually escalated the situation and committed a crime.
 
Desert Eagle said:
I am curious about the friend though. If you abuse a cop and spit at him, what would be the regular punishment?
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Verbally abusing a cop is idiotic but that doesn't deserve arrest unless it somehow interferes with his/her duties.

Spitting is either assault or battery against a peace officer and you're getting locked up, and rightly so.
 
I hear Metro board members were divided on whether the cops escalated this or not. It sounds like a lot sided with the cops.
That woman that refused to move her feet needs to learn some manners.
 
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