Cop in America doing a bad job, again

4bars said:
Because shooting a gun takes a fraction of a second and in US EVERYBODY can have a gun, so police are fecking terrified

Some of the policeman are bad apples
Some of the policeman are not bad apples

I will not dear to put a percentage on it, but all of them are terrified that someone might have a gun, so they shoot as quick as they believe something odd in their perception in a fraction of a second

That doesn't happen with policemen in most or europe because they know that is highly unlikely that a person has a gun and as well use it
Click to expand...

Obviously I have absolutely no idea on the stats but I cant imagine police have guns drawn on them THAT often. Shouldn't shooting a gun be the LAST thing you think about?

The guns laws are mental to me but that's a can I don't want to open.
 
Rado_N said:
It’s entirely irrelevant and serves only as an attempt to distract from and/downplay the criminal behaviour of the officer.
Click to expand...
Are people not allowed to genuinely know the answer to that question? Some may have a genuine desire to see the south side Chicago improve and want to ask these questions. Why shoot them down for it? Not everybody is trying to use it as a justification.

There's 2 sides to this: the cop doing the killing but also the kid finding himself in a situation where he gets killed. Maybe he was recruited and exploited by older gang members. That's a big problem in many communities.
 
Skizzo said:
Without it being deserving of being shot, asking why he’s out with someone at 2:30am firing off guns randomly is still worth asking.
Click to expand...
It is, but the inability of cops to accurately assess danger & kill someone unnecessarily is the overriding issue here.

The two issues aren’t close in importance. This smacks a bit of getting wound up & mired down like we discussed. It doesn’t advance discussion on the real issue at all.
 
VorZakone said:
Are people not allowed to genuinely know the answer to that question? Some may have a genuine desire to see the south side Chicago improve and want to ask these questions. Why shoot them down for it? Not everybody is trying to use it as a justification.

There's 2 sides to this: the cop doing the killing but also the kid finding himself in a situation where he gets killed. Maybe he was recruited and exploited by older gang members. That's a big problem in many communities.
Click to expand...

There are questions worth asking and there are societal issues that need looking at, but anyone replying to that tweet with “why was he out late, where’s his mom” is victim blaming and deflecting plain and simple.
 
VorZakone said:
Are people not allowed to genuinely know the answer to that question? Some may have a genuine desire to see the south side Chicago improve and want to ask these questions. Why shoot them down for it? Not everybody is trying to use it as a justification.

There's 2 sides to this: the cop doing the killing but also the kid finding himself in a situation where he gets killed. Maybe he was recruited and exploited by older gang members. That's a big problem in many communities.
Click to expand...

People are allowed to question what they like.

But the appropriate time to divert the conversation down those other routes isn't immediately after video is released showing the police killing an unarmed 13 year old with his hands in the air. Certainly not in direct reply to a video of that killing, as those tweeting those questions are doing.

Of the "two sides" you mention in the bold piece, the actions of the police are the most pressing issue by quite an enormous magnitude. Because the context is that we have just seen a video of an unarmed 13 year old being killed by the police.
 
Now compare the videos above of a 13 yo child and 20 yo Daunte Wright to this of a 61 yo white guy and tell me there are not 2 standards for use of ANY force, let alone deadly by police in America.

 
WI_Red said:
Now compare the videos above of a 13 yo child and 20 yo Daunte Wright to this of a 61 yo white guy and tell me there are not 2 standards for use of ANY force, let alone deadly by police in America.

Click to expand...

Apparently a face mask dispute.
 
sullydnl said:
People are allowed to question what they like.

But the appropriate time to divert the conversation down those other routes isn't immediately after video is released showing the police killing an unarmed 13 year old with his hands in the air. Certainly not in direct reply to a video of that killing, as those tweeting those questions are doing.

Of the "two sides" you mention in the bold piece, the actions of the police are the most pressing issue by quite an enormous magnitude. Because the context is that we have just seen a video of an unarmed 13 year old being killed by the police.
Click to expand...
Can't we have both conversations? Why "wait" with the "other" conversation about why a 13 year old kid finds himself in a situation where he puts his life in the hands of cops?

Surely incidents like this should actually trigger that conversation too? A kid got killed. Questions must be raised about every aspect of it to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I watched the video. It hurt me. Seeing a 13 year old kid get shot, fall down and bleed. It angers me. Both the fact that this cop couldn't see another way to handle the situation but also the fact that the kid was in this situation, especially if he was with an older person.
 
VorZakone said:
Can't we have both conversations? Why "wait" with the "other" conversation about why a 13 year old kid finds himself in a situation where he puts his life in the hands of cops?

Surely incidents like this should actually trigger that conversation too? A kid got killed. Questions must be raised about every aspect of it to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I watched the video. It hurt me. Seeing a 13 year old kid get shot, fall down and bleed. It angers me. Both the fact that this cop couldn't see another way to handle the situation but also the fact that the kid was in this situation, especially if he was with an older person.
Click to expand...

I think both conversations need to be had, but they need to be completely detached from each other. Discussing why a 13 yo is out and about at 2:30 am should not get anywhere near a discussion as to why a cop shot him when his hands were up. One is a discussion of the challenges of parenting and the other is a discussion of the challenges of police not killing the black and brown among us.
 
VorZakone said:
Can't we have both conversations? Why "wait" with the "other" conversation about why a 13 year old kid finds himself in a situation where he puts his life in the hands of cops?

Surely incidents like this should actually trigger that conversation too? A kid got killed. Questions must be raised about every aspect of it to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I watched the video. It hurt me. Seeing a 13 year old kid get shot, fall down and bleed. It angers me. Both the fact that this cop couldn't see another way to handle the situation but also the fact that the kid was in this situation, especially if he was with an older person.
Click to expand...
We can & should, the issue is the bandwidth dedicated to each, both personally & in the media. As @sullydnl stated, the issues are different by orders of magnitude. One is almost anecdotal compared the other. Time & effort spent on discussion should reflect that.
 
Last edited:
I respectfully disagree with the viewpoints here that the kid's circumstances are a smaller magnitude than the cop's trigger-happyness. If not the cop, he may find himself get killed on the Chicago streets to gang violence.

But I can understand that that may warrant a different discussion at a different moment. It is a tough topic and perhaps I struggle to properly articulate my viewpoint on it.
 
VorZakone said:
I respectfully disagree with the viewpoints here that the kid's circumstances are a smaller magnitude than the cop's trigger-happyness. If not the cop, he may find himself get killed on the Chicago streets to gang violence.

But I can understand that that may warrant a different discussion at a different moment. It is a tough topic and perhaps I struggle to properly articulate my viewpoint on it.
Click to expand...
Not every community is Chicago. The issue is that police seem to consistently act like their community is far more Chicago-ish than reality. They need to be better at assessing danger. They need to execute their job far better & more appropriately (pun not intended). Their prism through which they view their respective communities needs to change.

When you’re a hammer & all that.

e - just came across this article...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...ning-won-t-eradicate-police-violence-n1264092
 
VorZakone said:
Can't we have both conversations? Why "wait" with the "other" conversation about why a 13 year old kid finds himself in a situation where he puts his life in the hands of cops?

Surely incidents like this should actually trigger that conversation too? A kid got killed. Questions must be raised about every aspect of it to ensure it doesn't happen again.

I watched the video. It hurt me. Seeing a 13 year old kid get shot, fall down and bleed. It angers me. Both the fact that this cop couldn't see another way to handle the situation but also the fact that the kid was in this situation, especially if he was with an older person.
Click to expand...

People can have those conversations whenever they like. It's a free world.

But the context of this whole discussion is the release of this video. The revelation of the video is that the police murdered a child. It doesn't reveal anything else we didn't already know about the reality of Chicago's streets or the facts of this case.

If someone's immediate and direct response to that video is to ignore the pressing and relevant information it is revealing and instead to focus on other issues that the video tells us nothing new about then that's rather strange. And if the peripheral issue they're focusing on just so happens to shift focus towards the actions of the victim and away from the perpetrator then that will naturally be greeted with suspicion, because people aren't unaware of the very obvious agendas some people carry into these discussions.

If they were just having the discussion in abstract then fine, they can look at all the broader ancillary societal issues. But in this case it's a direct reply to being shown the actions of the police.
 
calodo2003 said:
Not every community is Chicago. The issue is that police seem to consistently act like their community is far more Chicago-ish than reality. They need to be better at assessing danger. They need to execute their job far better & more appropriately (pun not intended). Their prism through which they view their respective communities needs to change.

When you’re a hammer & all that.

e - just came across this article...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...ning-won-t-eradicate-police-violence-n1264092
Click to expand...

But if that community specifically is, why not ask the question? They weren’t acting like they were going to something gun related which was actually something else, it was a response to people firing off gun shots. I stated that no, it doesn’t deserve what happened, and no, it doesn’t absolve the end result, but like we said yesterday, different variables leading up to incidents can effect the outcome. Having 13 year olds out on the street at 2am firing off guns ends in tragedy. How that situation comes about in the first place deserves that question being asked. Not in relation to “did this deserve him to be killed?” But to ask why is he there with someone firing off guns? What got to that point where a thirteen year old is out doing that? Don’t ask the question as a deflection, but ask the question to get to the root of that issue too. There’s more than one thing at play here.

Look at every thread on here now with some kind of mass shooting. “Thoughts and prayers and whatever else” // “it’s hard to even care any more” // “no ones gonna do anything so why should we care?” // “that country is so fecked, it’ll never change”

it’s not victim blaming to ask why he’s there at 2am with people firing off guns. It’s wondering how we can find a way to stop a teenager feeling the need to be in that situation. Sure you can say you remove the police from that equation and he’s still alive, and yes that should absolutely be addressed. But why not also wonder and query how we can stop kids feeing a need to be there, or find a way to stop them getting their hands on firearms to be randomly firing off in the streets.
 
Rado_N said:
There are questions worth asking and there are societal issues that need looking at, but anyone replying to that tweet with “why was he out late, where’s his mom” is victim blaming and deflecting plain and simple.
Click to expand...

sorry, thought I responded to this before. To your point, no, it shouldn’t be a deterrent from looking at what happened and both appropriate action being taken, and justice being done. I think the legitimate questioning of why he’s there and how that came to be deserves looking at. For the people who are just deflecting by asking that, yes, they don’t deserve the effort or response.
 
Skizzo said:
But if that community specifically is, why not ask the question? They weren’t acting like they were going to something gun related which was actually something else, it was a response to people firing off gun shots. I stated that no, it doesn’t deserve what happened, and no, it doesn’t absolve the end result, but like we said yesterday, different variables leading up to incidents can effect the outcome. Having 13 year olds out on the street at 2am firing off guns ends in tragedy. How that situation comes about in the first place deserves that question being asked. Not in relation to “did this deserve him to be killed?” But to ask why is he there with someone firing off guns? What got to that point where a thirteen year old is out doing that? Don’t ask the question as a deflection, but ask the question to get to the root of that issue too. There’s more than one thing at play here.

Look at every thread on here now with some kind of mass shooting. “Thoughts and prayers and whatever else” // “it’s hard to even care any more” // “no ones gonna do anything so why should we care?” // “that country is so fecked, it’ll never change”

it’s not victim blaming to ask why he’s there at 2am with people firing off guns. It’s wondering how we can find a way to stop a teenager feeling the need to be in that situation. Sure you can say you remove the police from that equation and he’s still alive, and yes that should absolutely be addressed. But why not also wonder and query how we can stop kids feeing a need to be there, or find a way to stop them getting their hands on firearms to be randomly firing off in the streets.
Click to expand...
No one’s saying that there’s only one thing at play. Both conversations can be had, but the energy & bandwidth expended on both needs to be proportional with the severity of the issues as they are orders of magnitude different in scope & severity.

Kids absolutely shouldn’t be doing this. But kids have always acted like this in some capacity & the results haven’t been as severe as they have been in the past two decades with as many deaths.

Not to put trite levels of comparative import on this, but it’s like someone worrying about an ear ache after they have been shot. Both can certainly kill you, but one issue has a bit more pressing importance than the other. They need to be triaged appropriately, just like the violent policing issue needs to be triaged regarding all the component parts.
 
calodo2003 said:
No one’s saying that there’s only one thing at play. Both conversations can be had, but the energy & bandwidth expended on both needs to be proportional with the severity of the issues as they are orders of magnitude different in scope & severity.

Kids absolutely shouldn’t be doing this. But kids have always acted like this in some capacity & the results haven’t been as severe as they have been in the past two decades with as many deaths.

Not to put trite levels of comparative import on this, but it’s like someone worrying about an ear ache after they have been shot. Both can certainly kill you, but one issue has a bit more pressing importance than the other. They need to be triaged appropriately, just like the violent policing issue needs to be triaged regarding all the component parts.
Click to expand...

This year has had the most shootings in the first quarter in Chicago in years. I wouldn’t say that’s an ear ache. 218 more people have been shot this year than last year at this point for a total of over 800, in Chicago alone.
 
WI_Red said:
I think both conversations need to be had, but they need to be completely detached from each other. Discussing why a 13 yo is out and about at 2:30 am should not get anywhere near a discussion as to why a cop shot him when his hands were up. One is a discussion of the challenges of parenting and the other is a discussion of the challenges of police not killing the black and brown among us.
Click to expand...


Where is the 'kids out after midnight' discussion thread? I think we are all able to have rational discussions on complicated subjects that involve many tangents. Jumping on people who ask these sorts of questions is annoying if they are honestly seeking answers.
 
Skizzo said:
This year has had the most shootings in the first quarter in Chicago in years. I wouldn’t say that’s an ear ache. 218 more people have been shot this year than last year at this point for a total of over 800, in Chicago alone.
Click to expand...
Again, we are getting mired down in specifics when the larger issue of violent policing is that police nationwide seem to think everywhere is more Chicago-ish than it actually is. Everywhere else is not Chicago. The mentality & the prism through which the police view the public is flawed & some segments of the public make out far worse than others. The issue is bigger than Chicago.

Chicago is the ear ache here, the overtly violent policing that is systemic nationwide is the gunshot wound.
 
Grinner said:
Where is the 'kids out after midnight' discussion thread? I think we are all able to have rational discussions on complicated subjects that involve many tangents. Jumping on people who ask these sorts of questions is annoying if they are honestly seeking answers.
Click to expand...

not sure where I jumped on someone?
 
Stumbled across this article from Dec 2017 after revisiting the Daniel Shaver death murder. I felt the writer made some good points, especially getting white people to view what others currently view will go a long ways towards actual reform. And the obvious corruption at play when the one cop's father was on a board that ultimately reinstated his son, who then a few weeks later gets a pension for PTSD and whatnot. Utter bullshit sham scam.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...lice-killing-without-a-hint-of-racism/546983/
A Police Killing Without a Hint of Racism
Daniel Shaver begged officers not to shoot him. What role will his death play in the push for law-enforcement reforms?
 
Or anyone was jumped on. Don’t think @Skizzo is being jumped on here, he is correct that questions need to be asked about why two kids that age were out that late shooting handguns, especially in Chicago.
 
Last edited:
Skizzo said:
it’s not victim blaming to ask why he’s there at 2am with people firing off guns. It’s wondering how we can find a way to stop a teenager feeling the need to be in that situation. Sure you can say you remove the police from that equation and he’s still alive, and yes that should absolutely be addressed. But why not also wonder and query how we can stop kids feeing a need to be there, or find a way to stop them getting their hands on firearms to be randomly firing off in the streets.
Click to expand...

Teenagers like to be out late. Maybe he snuck out of the house. I know I did plenty of times at that age. Most rational people would wonder why the police shot him when his hands were up.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Watch the video. His hands were up.
Click to expand...

Apparently, he threw a gun on the ground behind the wall. That's what it looks from the other angle (from another video), when reinforcements arrived at the scene.

Could have been planted of course...

Shouldn't mattered though. At that point, the kid had already surrendered. It was a clear execution.
 
Last edited:
Grinner said:
But did he have a gun? I haven't read closely enough...has that been determined?
Click to expand...

Yes. If you pause the vid in Tweet you can see it behind his back at about 3 seconds in. He throws it behind the fence and then raises his hands all in the same movement with his body and fence obscuring the view of the gun as he tosses it away. All that and cop firing happens in the space of 2 seconds at the most.

I think it's a tough one. The cop wouldn't have known he tossed it and the raising of his hands could have been to fire. That does beg the question why he asked him to raise his hands instead of telling him to drop the weapon but with the gun going out of view like that there was no way of knowing if he still had it in his hands as he raised them. If he waits to find out the cop could be deadd. If the kid had dropped it behind him just straight down on the ground then I guess there's a chance it wouldn't have happened.
 
Chipper said:
Yes. If you pause the vid in Tweet you can see it behind his back at about 3 seconds in. He throws it behind the fence and then raises his hands all in the same movement with his body and fence obscuring the view of the gun as he tosses it away. All that and cop firing happens in the space of 2 seconds at the most.

I think it's a tough one. The cop wouldn't have known he tossed it and the raising of his hands could have been to fire. That does beg the question why he asked him to raise his hands instead of telling him to drop the weapon but with the gun going out of view like that there was no way of knowing if he still had it in his hands as he raised them. If he waits to find out he could be dead. If the kid had dropped it behind him just straight down on the ground then I guess there's a chance it wouldn't have happened.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but for me this is not a tough one. He was ordered to put his hands up. He put his hands up. If the officer is so rattled he/she still murders that child even as he is doing what he is told then he/she sure as hell should not be an officer and sure as hell belongs in jail for manslaughter.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Teenagers like to be out late. Maybe he snuck out of the house. I know I did plenty of times at that age. Most rational people would wonder why the police shot him when his hands were up.
Click to expand...

My issue here isnt that it was 2am...more that he’s out with someone firing random gunshots off into the night.


Rado_N said:
Why was he out so late is basically the same as “why was she wearing a short skirt”.
Click to expand...

If that’s supposed to be aimed at me, then that’s not even close to what I’m asking or saying, so I’ll assume it’s not.
 
It's super cool that the American state has basically made around 700,000 Paul Blart mall cops into an occupying army and some people instead still want to debate why a kid was outside at 2am.

It's the same arguments over and over again.
 
WI_Red said:
I'm sorry, but for me this is not a tough one. He was ordered to put his hands up. He put his hands up. If the officer is so rattled he/she still murders that child even as he is doing what he is told then he/she sure as hell should not be an officer and sure as hell belongs in jail for manslaughter.
Click to expand...
Another instance of sheer negligence at a minimum.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.