Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Eboue said:
There's nothing cops love more than killing dogs. The stats in that article are staggering.
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Imagine having to shoot a chihuahua due to feeling in fear of one’s life. How close would you have to get the muzzle of the gun to such a little animal to accurately hit that small, moving target?
 
calodo2003 said:
Imagine having to shoot a chihuahua due to feeling in fear of one’s life. How close would you have to get the muzzle of the gun to such a little animal to accurately hit that small, moving target?
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most dogs aren’t going to latch on and keep going. Our GSD is a rescue who had the crap beat out of her by her red neck scums of previous owners. As a result she is fear aggressive to humans. The few times she has felt corneered she goes for a leg bite (Muzzled so no actual bite) and runs off to hide. I know for sure she would be shot if LEO came into our house. I’m not sure what I would do. She’s been with us for a decade and is our child.

Way late Edit: And that is not even getting to what my wife would do.
 
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Not all extra-judicial police killings, but y’all will get the point, from an anonymous POC...


I am a black person in America.

I need to run some errands this morning. To ensure I arrive alive, I won't take public transit (Oscar Grant). I removed all air fresheners from the vehicle and double-checked my registration status (Daunte Wright), and ensured my license plates were visible (Lt. Caron Nazario).

I will be careful to follow all traffic rules (Philando Castille), signal every turn (Sandra Bland), keep the radio volume low (Jordan Davis), and won't stop at a fast food chain for a meal (Rayshard Brooks). I'm too afraid to pray (Rev. Clementa C. Pickney) so I just hope the car won't break down (Corey Jones).

When I run errands today, I’ll be sure not to dance (Elijah McClain), not to jog (Ahmaud Arbery), stop to play in a park (Tamir Rice), patronize the local convenience store for snacks (Trayvon Martin), or walk around the neighborhood (Mike Brown). Once home, I won’t stand in my relative’s backyard (Stephon Clark), eat ice cream on the couch (Botham Jean), or play any video games (Atatiana Jefferson).

Maybe I will live through today.
 
calodo2003 said:
Not all extra-judicial police killings, but y’all will get the point, from an anonymous POC...


I am a black person in America.

I need to run some errands this morning. To ensure I arrive alive, I won't take public transit (Oscar Grant). I removed all air fresheners from the vehicle and double-checked my registration status (Daunte Wright), and ensured my license plates were visible (Lt. Caron Nazario).

I will be careful to follow all traffic rules (Philando Castille), signal every turn (Sandra Bland), keep the radio volume low (Jordan Davis), and won't stop at a fast food chain for a meal (Rayshard Brooks). I'm too afraid to pray (Rev. Clementa C. Pickney) so I just hope the car won't break down (Corey Jones).

When I run errands today, I’ll be sure not to dance (Elijah McClain), not to jog (Ahmaud Arbery), stop to play in a park (Tamir Rice), patronize the local convenience store for snacks (Trayvon Martin), or walk around the neighborhood (Mike Brown). Once home, I won’t stand in my relative’s backyard (Stephon Clark), eat ice cream on the couch (Botham Jean), or play any video games (Atatiana Jefferson).

Maybe I will live through today.
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Even if he/she does this they are fecked once they go to sleep (Brianna Taylor)
 
171 pages of police brutality, fresh on monthly or even weekly basis sometimes.

I kid youse not when i say i feel safer going to russia, iran or even myanmar at this point.

At least there if you do your shits and minding your own business you'll be left alone.
 
Sky1981 said:
171 pages of police brutality, fresh on monthly or even weekly basis sometimes.

I kid youse not when i say i feel safer going to russia, iran or even myanmar at this point.

At least there if you do your shits and minding your own business you'll be left alone.
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Apparently there were only 18 days in 2020 where cops didn’t kill civilians in this country.

That’s 5% of the year with no civilian deaths.

Now, not all cop killings were improper obviously, but there are only 36 hours each month free of civilian deaths by cops.
 
calodo2003 said:
Not all extra-judicial police killings, but y’all will get the point, from an anonymous POC...


I am a black person in America.

I need to run some errands this morning. To ensure I arrive alive, I won't take public transit (Oscar Grant). I removed all air fresheners from the vehicle and double-checked my registration status (Daunte Wright), and ensured my license plates were visible (Lt. Caron Nazario).

I will be careful to follow all traffic rules (Philando Castille), signal every turn (Sandra Bland), keep the radio volume low (Jordan Davis), and won't stop at a fast food chain for a meal (Rayshard Brooks). I'm too afraid to pray (Rev. Clementa C. Pickney) so I just hope the car won't break down (Corey Jones).

When I run errands today, I’ll be sure not to dance (Elijah McClain), not to jog (Ahmaud Arbery), stop to play in a park (Tamir Rice), patronize the local convenience store for snacks (Trayvon Martin), or walk around the neighborhood (Mike Brown). Once home, I won’t stand in my relative’s backyard (Stephon Clark), eat ice cream on the couch (Botham Jean), or play any video games (Atatiana Jefferson).

Maybe I will live through today.
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I get the idea, but including things like “Mike Brown walking around the neighborhood” doesn’t do service to the point being made.
 
Skizzo said:
I get the idea, but including things like “Mike Brown walking around the neighborhood” doesn’t do service to the point being made.
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This one is tough since there is a lot of noise about what happened, and doubly so b/c it was kind of the initiator (along with Eric Garner) of the rise of BLM. I guess it depends on if you believe the report out of the DOJ re: what happened. Of all the police shootings this is the one I have the hardest time fitting into the bad shoot narrative, but I still struggle with it b/c experience teaches the DOJ may not always be trustworthy.

tldr; I kinda agree with @Skizzo, but the point of the post he quoted still resonates.
 
Skizzo said:
I get the idea, but including things like “Mike Brown walking around the neighborhood” doesn’t do service to the point being made.
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They’re not all killings by cops either.

But the broader point is still easily understandable & pertinent. It’s a gamble being black these days.

It’s similar to the other post I just made about 18 days free of killings by a cop. Not all the killings were unjustifiable, it’s just dicey being a POC these days.
 
WI_Red said:
This one is tough since there is a lot of noise about what happened, and doubly so b/c it was kind of the initiator (along with Eric Garner) of the rise of BLM. I guess it depends on if you believe the report out of the DOJ re: what happened. Of all the police shootings this is the one I have the hardest time fitting into the bad shoot narrative, but I still struggle with it b/c experience teaches the DOJ may not always be trustworthy.

tldr; I kinda agree with @Skizzo, but the point of the post he quoted still resonates.
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calodo2003 said:
They’re not all killings by cops either.

But the broader point is still easily understandable & pertinent. It’s a gamble being black these days.

It’s similar to the other post I just made about 18 days free of killings by a cop. Not all the killings were unjustifiable, it’s just dicey being a POC these days.
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I hesitated commenting because I know it just sounds argumentative, and it isn’t supposed to be. I get the point, and I couldn’t ever fathom having to feel that way and I wouldn’t try to play that narrative down at all. It is a minefield for POC and things need to be done for sure.

Where I think a lot of support suddenly wanes is when it’s a blanket statement that covers any incident. The whole “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative that went around that was never something that he did or said during the incident, as well as the whole narrative of being innocent and minding his own business and a gentle giant. There’s so many (unfortunately) people on that list who deserve attention, justice et al. and adding someone like that takes away from what the message should be. My opinion from the other side at least, for what little it’s worth.
 
Skizzo said:
I hesitated commenting because I know it just sounds argumentative, and it isn’t supposed to be. I get the point, and I couldn’t ever fathom having to feel that way and I wouldn’t try to play that narrative down at all. It is a minefield for POC and things need to be done for sure.

Where I think a lot of support suddenly wanes is when it’s a blanket statement that covers any incident. The whole “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative that went around that was never something that he did or said during the incident, as well as the whole narrative of being innocent and minding his own business and a gentle giant. There’s so many (unfortunately) people on that list who deserve attention, justice et al. and adding someone like that takes away from what the message should be. My opinion from the other side at least, for what little it’s worth.
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Don’t see a thing argumentative here at all.

Not all of these incidents are exactly simpatico with the others, but the challenge also arises when pedantry is engaged to the point where it stops a fruitful debate (not calling you a ‘pedant’ per se). The basic issue is a far more important topic & deserves hard work & critical thought to try to improve it; getting mired in specifics where anecdotal evidence could be used to dispel the broader push for reform.

The granularity of each event is extremely important, no doubt, but slogging through that minefield weakens the overall push for true reform / the overall push for justice to be served & -isms to be eradicated (in the non-police related killings listed there like the jogger & the reverend).
 
Skizzo said:
I hesitated commenting because I know it just sounds argumentative, and it isn’t supposed to be. I get the point, and I couldn’t ever fathom having to feel that way and I wouldn’t try to play that narrative down at all. It is a minefield for POC and things need to be done for sure.

Where I think a lot of support suddenly wanes is when it’s a blanket statement that covers any incident. The whole “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative that went around that was never something that he did or said during the incident, as well as the whole narrative of being innocent and minding his own business and a gentle giant. There’s so many (unfortunately) people on that list who deserve attention, justice et al. and adding someone like that takes away from what the message should be. My opinion from the other side at least, for what little it’s worth.
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point taken but don’t hesitate to comment as you bring a unique perspective to the conversation. If you do feel yourself hesitant going just do what I do (if you drink) pour a nice healthy portion of a single malt and type away.

I have mentioned a few times that I spent a few years as a police explorer way back in the day. I was wondering your thoughts on the program. While I met some amazing LEO’s while in it, and learned a ton, it was a huge turn off for me in terms of LE as a career. It was not the job per se, but the culture of a not small minority of the officers I rode with or worked with. Even as a teen I recognized that if this is what I saw as a 16 yo observer, what the hell was happening when I wasn’t in the car?
 
calodo2003 said:
Don’t see a thing argumentative here at all.

Not all of these incidents are exactly simpatico with the others, but the challenge also arises when pedantry is engaged to the point where it stops a fruitful debate (not calling you a ‘pedant’ per se). The basic issue is a far more important topic & deserves hard work & critical thought to try to improve it; getting mired in specifics where anecdotal evidence could be used to dispel the broader push for reform.

The granularity of each event is extremely important, no doubt, but slogging through that minefield weakens the overall push for true reform / the overall push for justice to be served & -isms to be eradicated (in the non-police related killings listed there like the jogger & the reverend).
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That’s why I believe the point is far better made without including ones that could be considered “controversial”. When you bring forth a point to try and bring about change with a side who will already be reluctant to hear what you have to say, having examples where police may have been justified just gives them an angle of “you don’t care about what’s right, you just want ____”

It’s already a conversation that is tremendously hard for both sides to even begin, that if both sides start out small and cede certain issues, we can try and get to the root. POC shouldn’t live in fear. If things do happen, people need to be held accountable. The accountability should be uniform across the board (murder is murder, for example) and anyone who partakes in the incidents to whatever capacity, should be also accountable and have to explain themselves. Neither side should make blanket, all inclusive statements of the other because that immediately halts any forward movement.
 
WI_Red said:
point taken but don’t hesitate to comment as you bring a unique perspective to the conversation. If you do feel yourself hesitant going just do what I do (if you drink) pour a nice healthy portion of a single malt and type away.

I have mentioned a few times that I spent a few years as a police explorer way back in the day. I was wondering your thoughts on the program. While I met some amazing LEO’s while in it, and learned a ton, it was a huge turn off for me in terms of LE as a career. It was not the job per se, but the culture of a not small minority of the officers I rode with or worked with. Even as a teen I recognized that if this is what I saw as a 16 yo observer, what the hell was happening when I wasn’t in the car?
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The discussions are far more open and courteous now than they used to be. I don’t expect people to agree on everything, especially with some tactics etc. I can understand why things are done a certain way, and also see why it may seem bad to the public. There’s definitely been times when myself and others have brought forward that perspective and it’s just shouted down, but I get that this is a thread that’s gonna bring out emotion.

In terms of the explorer program, I can’t really speak much about it. I was never involved before I began my career, but a few colleagues were in the program and it definitely benefited them in terms of preparation. I’m finding out, however, that the more I look at other departments across the country, there’s certainly what appears to be a lack of tactics or training or maybe just some sort of complacency with how things are done. With Wright, I can’t fathom why they would take so long to handcuff, or why they would even try doing it right there at his door. There’s so many variables there that you remove by having him step back towards the patrol vehicle, or even just closing his door. I’ve also had classmates from our academy that failed out that ended up at other departments, which also makes me question what kind of standards they’re holding. Which is maybe an unfair query, as the CHP academy is notoriously difficult, but some of them definitely didn’t seem to have what it takes for a variety of reasons.

Not sure if that really answers your questions as to the explorers, but there’s definitely officers who carry themselves in ways that people in here have probably imagined or would describe.
 
Skizzo said:
That’s why I believe the point is far better made without including ones that could be considered “controversial”. When you bring forth a point to try and bring about change with a side who will already be reluctant to hear what you have to say, having examples where police may have been justified just gives them an angle of “you don’t care about what’s right, you just want ____”

It’s already a conversation that is tremendously hard for both sides to even begin, that if both sides start out small and cede certain issues, we can try and get to the root. POC shouldn’t live in fear. If things do happen, people need to be held accountable. The accountability should be uniform across the board (murder is murder, for example) and anyone who partakes in the incidents to whatever capacity, should be also accountable and have to explain themselves. Neither side should make blanket, all inclusive statements of the other because that immediately halts any forward movement.
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Again, nothing I disagree with here.

I just happen to look through a different prism. You are correct that it is a difficult conversation to have & even harder to affect any change. I just unfortunately think that a critical mass needs to be reached for any true progress to be made. And, even after listing out all these events, we seem to be a long way off from this occurring.

Again, to me, anecdotal instances & the adherence to using such to negate the validity of the vastly larger amount of the typical events is a greater problem than not including said instances in a discussion. Yes, it will potential derail a proper debate, but the overwhelming number of typical events should overwhelm the anecdotal events.

But, that’s just me & it’s bit of a Pollyanna-ish take, but those anecdotal events don’t move the needle much. And shouldn’t.
 
calodo2003 said:
Again, nothing I disagree with here.

I just happen to look through a different prism. You are correct that it is a difficult conversation to have & even harder to affect any change. I just unfortunately think that a critical mass needs to be reached for any true progress to be made. And, even after listing out all these events, we seem to be a long way off from this occurring.

Again, to me, anecdotal instances & the adherence to using such to negate the validity of the vastly larger amount of the typical events is a greater problem than not including said instances in a discussion. Yes, it will potential derail a proper debate, but the overwhelming number of typical events should overwhelm the anecdotal events.

But, that’s just me & it’s bit of a Pollyanna-ish take, but those anecdotal events don’t move the needle much. And shouldn’t.
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I definitely don’t disagree that they shouldn’t end the conversation before it starts, just that I see that being an “out” if you will.

The fact that you can make a whole days narrative with vastly different activities and such to display the issue should be enough for that conversation to happen.
 
Skizzo said:
The discussions are far more open and courteous now than they used to be. I don’t expect people to agree on everything, especially with some tactics etc. I can understand why things are done a certain way, and also see why it may seem bad to the public. There’s definitely been times when myself and others have brought forward that perspective and it’s just shouted down, but I get that this is a thread that’s gonna bring out emotion.

In terms of the explorer program, I can’t really speak much about it. I was never involved before I began my career, but a few colleagues were in the program and it definitely benefited them in terms of preparation. I’m finding out, however, that the more I look at other departments across the country, there’s certainly what appears to be a lack of tactics or training or maybe just some sort of complacency with how things are done. With Wright, I can’t fathom why they would take so long to handcuff, or why they would even try doing it right there at his door. There’s so many variables there that you remove by having him step back towards the patrol vehicle, or even just closing his door. I’ve also had classmates from our academy that failed out that ended up at other departments, which also makes me question what kind of standards they’re holding. Which is maybe an unfair query, as the CHP academy is notoriously difficult, but some of them definitely didn’t seem to have what it takes for a variety of reasons.

Not sure if that really answers your questions as to the explorers, but there’s definitely officers who carry themselves in ways that people in here have probably imagined or would describe.
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Aren’t there federal standards on training to a certain consistent level or am I completely wrong here? Or are the standards just very minimal?

I do have to echo that the discourse has gotten somewhat more civil in here which is a bit counter intuitive especially with the apparent spate of potentially unjustifiable cop killings recently / more being videotaped. I can tend to get riled up regarding this issue, so I try to vent by simply posting links, videos, etc. It has been through interacting with you & @choiboyx012 that has toned down my rhetoric in here. I am still appalled & mortified by the frequency of these tragedies, but haranguing the likes of you & choi doesn’t advance or solve anything except to release frustration.
 
Skizzo said:
I definitely don’t disagree that they shouldn’t cause the conversation to not happen, just that I see that being an “out” if you will.

The fact that you can make a whole days narrative with vastly different activities and such to display the issue should be enough for that conversation to happen.
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Unfortunately we will probably have to see many more ‘last summers’ to see any appreciable positive change. By then, that critical mass reached might neuter any meaningful conversations to be had.
 
Skizzo said:
The discussions are far more open and courteous now than they used to be. I don’t expect people to agree on everything, especially with some tactics etc. I can understand why things are done a certain way, and also see why it may seem bad to the public. There’s definitely been times when myself and others have brought forward that perspective and it’s just shouted down, but I get that this is a thread that’s gonna bring out emotion.

In terms of the explorer program, I can’t really speak much about it. I was never involved before I began my career, but a few colleagues were in the program and it definitely benefited them in terms of preparation. I’m finding out, however, that the more I look at other departments across the country, there’s certainly what appears to be a lack of tactics or training or maybe just some sort of complacency with how things are done. With Wright, I can’t fathom why they would take so long to handcuff, or why they would even try doing it right there at his door. There’s so many variables there that you remove by having him step back towards the patrol vehicle, or even just closing his door. I’ve also had classmates from our academy that failed out that ended up at other departments, which also makes me question what kind of standards they’re holding. Which is maybe an unfair query, as the CHP academy is notoriously difficult, but some of them definitely didn’t seem to have what it takes for a variety of reasons.

Not sure if that really answers your questions as to the explorers, but there’s definitely officers who carry themselves in ways that people in here have probably imagined or would describe.
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it does to the extent you could, so thank you. I am glad that this thread has cooled a bit for you and the other LEO’s. Even in my pre posting days (thanks to work rules I had to be a lurker for close to a decade) I avoided this thread as it was difficult to get through for multiple reasons. Now it seems to be a place where we can at least discuss things.

Your comment re: Wright is interesting as I listened to a podcast yesterday that had two officers from Baltimore make that exact point. The did not mince words on how the whole thing was handled.
 
WI_Red said:
it does to the extent you could, so thank you. I am glad that this thread has cooled a bit for you and the other LEO’s. Even in my pre posting days (thanks to work rules I had to be a lurker for close to a decade) I avoided this thread as it was difficult to get through for multiple reasons. Now it seems to be a place where we can at least discuss things.

Your comment re: Wright is interesting as I listened to a podcast yesterday that had two officers from Baltimore make that exact point. The did not mince words on how the whole thing was handled.
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There’s often multiple factors from both sides that can determine how things play out. I know the “comply and you’ll be fine” angle gets throw around, and I know there’s plenty of examples that go against that. The overwhelming majority of encounters end positively. Once things do start to go off script, it should be the officers job to handle it as appropriately as possible to get the best result for all involved, and with the minimal amount of force necessary. There’s always a chance things can go wrong, but in Wright’s case, they take that element away and he doesn’t have his open car door right there and maybe he doesn’t decide to make a break for it. Absolutely doesn’t deserve a death sentence (and whether is was accidental or not is another conversation), but you limit a persons ability to make a decision that requires you to respond forcefully, and a better chance everyone goes home. Maybe he would have fought anyway, but you can’t factor that in, you can only go on what information you have there.
 
calodo2003 said:
Unfortunately we will probably have to see many more ‘last summers’ to see any appreciable positive change. By then, that critical mass reached might neuter any meaningful conversations to be had.
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Everyone seems to agree that things will get a whole lot worse before they ever get better. I can’t say I disagree too much.
 
Skizzo said:
Everyone seems to agree that things will get a whole lot worse before they ever get better. I can’t say I disagree too much.
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It really needs to start with the police. The whole institution needs a wake up call. Look at the violence and intimidation used against people practicing their 1st amendment rights compared to the timid response to people threatening elected officials and the general public with their 2nd amendment rights.
If police fear for their lives because someone could be armed then they should be front and center in the fight for strict gun control.
Same with the fight to legalize marijuana federally. I'm sure drunk people cause the police force more of a headache than someone with a bit of plant in their possession.
Justice reform is also essential. There is a big reason why people (especially POC or people with little means) are so fearful of being arrested and put through the system. Traffic and vehicle infractions should never escalate to a person's life being turned upside down or to the point of death. Petty crime should not be a death sentence either. Police forces around the world deal with these situations adequately, so does the vast majority here. That's why the consequences should be severe for any LEO like Kim Potter or Chauvin. Needless death at the hands of people who have been trained to deal with these situations without fatalities is just unacceptable in any situation.
 
I think the cops like it the way it is otherwise they would be for big change re 2nd Amendment etc.
The big police unions (LAPD & NyPD) went for Trump in the election too. Law & order!

They need accountability so put their pensions and union funding on the line for poor performance. That’s the fastest way to get changes made.
 
utdalltheway said:
I think the cops like it the way it is otherwise they would be for big change re 2nd Amendment etc.
The big police unions (LAPD & NyPD) went for Trump in the election too. Law & order!

They need accountability so put their pensions and union funding on the line for poor performance. That’s the fastest way to get changes made.
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And limit the scope of qualified immunity (if that’s possible currently; if not, eliminate it or figure out a way to limit it).
 
It has to be common sense reform. You don't want to skew the system so far the other was to make it so they won't be able to do their job effectively, but at the same time the current situation is obvs not working, and hasn't worked for donkeys.
 
Why do American police feel the need to use guns so much?

Why do they resort to dangerous measures to catch someone NOW who isn't posing a risk to the public?

I can't understand why it is the first thing they do.
 
bsCallout said:
Why do American police feel the need to use guns so much?

Why do they resort to dangerous measures to catch someone NOW who isn't posing a risk to the public?

I can't understand why it is the first thing they do.
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It's a strange one. Obviously not a deterrent, rather, it's made people more likely to flee because they feel they have better odds of surviving if they don't stick around.
 
bsCallout said:
Why do American police feel the need to use guns so much?

Why do they resort to dangerous measures to catch someone NOW who isn't posing a risk to the public?

I can't understand why it is the first thing they do.
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Because shooting a gun takes a fraction of a second and in US EVERYBODY can have a gun, so police are fecking terrified

Some of the policeman are bad apples
Some of the policeman are not bad apples

I will not dear to put a percentage on it, but all of them are terrified that someone might have a gun, so they shoot as quick as they believe something odd in their perception in a fraction of a second

That doesn't happen with policemen in most or europe because they know that is highly unlikely that a person has a gun and as well use it
 
Skizzo said:
Without it being deserving of being shot, asking why he’s out with someone at 2:30am firing off guns randomly is still worth asking.
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It’s entirely irrelevant and serves only as an attempt to distract from and/downplay the criminal behaviour of the officer.
 
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