Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Guy walking to car - hey, shall we maybe apprehend him before he goes to the car and possibly gets a weapon? Nah, let's walk with our gun pointed at him while he does so and then shoot him 7 times in the back, just because.
 
pocco said:
I know but I doubt they would just shoot him in the leg because he could potentially try to get in his car. Playing devils advocate a bit here, but they tried to stop him getting into his car. If he had stopped then he might not have got shot.

I'm absolutely not condoning anything the police have done here, by the way. Just wondering what he was thinking. I mean, I'm not American but if I was over there and their police had their guns on me, I'd be unbelievably careful in every action I took until the situation was under control and their guns away. We know how trigger happy they are - I just can't believe he ignored everything, especially in this current climate where these issues are at the fore. I mean, it's almost like he's tried to make himself a martyr, this possibility must have crossed his mind when he ignored them. It's shit, really shit. But I feel like completely avoidable. I don't get the feeling that these police were like some of the others that were looking to kill, just following their shitty training.
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I mean, at some point you need to look back at this and see the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I get what you are trying to do. However a man has been shot 7 times in the back, in a country you don't know and a situation you've never been in...Tell me, what makes you the person to play "devil's advocate" here and then go on to say how you'd react in that very situation?
 
SilentWitness said:
Guy walking to car - hey, shall we maybe apprehend him before he goes to the car and possibly gets a weapon? Nah, let's walk with our gun pointed at him while he does so and then shoot him 7 times in the back, just because.
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Bingo.
 
It's the "she was asking for it"-defence of criminal police officers.
 
Why were their guns drawn on him in the first place???
Was it because he refused to show his ID?
I firmly believe that the cops in this country should not be carrying lethal firearms on their fat waists. Cowardly cnuts.
 
That’s terrible why doesn’t the cop even try to restrain the guy instead of shooting him in back 7 times?
It’s as if he has no care at all that it’s another human being..
 
Stack said:
People dont always act rationally when in situations of high stress however professionals such as the police trained to deal with high stress situations really should be able to handle this situation better.
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Pretty much
 
Think I need to leave this thread for my own mental wellbeing
 
How about they equipped police with guns that fire tranquilzer darts as well? Shoot suspect without killing him.
 
Shamana said:
How about they equipped police with guns that fire tranquilzer darts as well? Shoot suspect without killing him.
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Not foolproof and people will still die.

Among other things, they need to reassess their engagement model and stop shooting people who are fleeing if they aren't going to be a danger to the public. It's not like they'll be impossible to find again.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Not foolproof and people will still die.

Among other things, they need to reassess their engagement model and stop shooting people who are fleeing if they aren't going to be a danger to the public. It's not like they'll be impossible to find again.
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I'm thinking about situations where they suspect a person to be reaching for a gun or a weapon. Not foolproof(and might lead to complications), but an improvement on empying a clip into guys who are non-compliant.
 
Shamana said:
I'm thinking about situations where they suspect a person to be reaching for a gun or a weapon. Not foolproof(and might lead to complications), but an improvement on empying a clip into guys who are non-compliant.
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Fair points, I'm sure. There may also be legal obstacles to the administration of what are probably controlled substances to humans by non-medical professionals. Not sure if any of these substances would work quickly enough, either.

This video seems a decent explanation of why not:

 
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It's scary how cheap life is in the USA. I live in a country with a very high crime rate but it honestly never feels like you could die for nothing. Can't imagine one of our cops just killing someone for entering their car with kids Inside.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
Fair points, I'm sure. There may also be legal obstacles to the administration of what are probably controlled substances to humans by non-medical professionals. Not sure if any of these substances would work quickly enough, either.

This video seems a decent explanation of why not:

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Good point. It was just an idea I floated for 5 seconds in my head where cops still get to shoot people but not(mostly) kill them. Anyway good video.
 
Shamana said:
Good point. It was just an idea I floated for 5 seconds in my head where cops still get to shoot people but not(mostly) kill them. Anyway good video.
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I think we both learned something from it. Good of you to raise the question.
 
matherto said:
I’ve gotta be honest, both sides are to blame.

Trigger happy US cops who only know to shoot when faced with adversity/non compliance and don’t consider a multitude of other options first AND a guy reaching into his car having ignored said trigger happy cops who must surely know what happens next. Obviously they’re gonna think you’re going for a gun so they’ll shoot you, why do it?

All in the backdrop of the current situation where surely both sides are aware of how things appear?

He absolutely didn’t deserve to die but it was only going to end one way given all the factors at play. To see only one side to blame in either direction is part of the overarching problem.

Just add it to the shitshow pile that is America in 2020.
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Just a fecking nightmare. Thank god I don't live in the US. As you say the entire incident here is a shit show and I want no part of that environment. I remember the video of the guy being executed outside his hotel room trying to be 100% compliant with a narcissist control freak cop, but he was terrified and made mistakes. No compassion, no understanding, no common sense, and ultimately he was no threat either. Executed. Then this scenario where guns are drawn on you by policeman for no truly compelling reason and then things get out of control and another execution (attempted). I mean I can't imagine how many people would be shot on a friday night in Cardiff if the same procedures were followed. Disturbance = guns drawn. But then again no citizens are walking around with concealed firearms they legally bought from their cousin at a bbq. A toxic culture.
 
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RooneyLegend said:
It's scary how cheap life is in the USA. I live in a country with a very high crime rate but it honestly never feels like you could die for nothing. Can't imagine one of our cops just killing someone for entering their car with kids Inside.
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Thats how I feel.
 
Posh Red said:
It’s disgusting.
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It's not though.

I think US Police are fecking terrible. Horribly trained, scared shitless, power tripping, racist monsters from everything I've seen.

BUT

To deny that the guy that got shot did anything 'wrong' in this scenario causes the divide and the problem.

I've no idea what he did to cause the situation to begin with and no matter what it was, it wasn't enough to ever deserve death but he literally picked a hill to die on. It's absolutely not right at all that he was murdered like that no doubt but he DID contribute to it by ignoring them and going to his car.

Surely as a black man in the current climate in America with cops all pointing a gun at you, you live to fight another day and just stay down? It's awful that it's even a suggestion because it's so unjust to us but in that moment it's either that or you die isn't it? That's the choice black folk in America have right now when in that situation. Why purposely go for the option that gets you killed? If I'm a black guy in America and I get caught by the cops in 2020 with protests, rioting, looting, propaganda, bad police training, racism, everything going on, I'm complying so I don't die knowing full well even the merest hint on non-compliance and I'm dead.

We can absolutely allow for the thought that people won't act rationally in such a scenario and I hopefully will never be in that scenario so me commenting on what I personally would do is a bit rich but did the guy really think he'd get away with walking away from those monsters and going into his car? If he did then it's astonishing recklessness and a complete lack of awareness of the current climate.

Oh and the cops mightily fecked up and deserve to hang, in case you want to say I'm victim shaming. It's not nice to hear when someone gets unjustly murdered in cold blood like this but denying contributing factors from the poor victim's POV doesn't get us anywhere.
 
matherto said:
It's not though.

I think US Police are fecking terrible. Horribly trained, scared shitless, power tripping, racist monsters from everything I've seen.

BUT

To deny that the guy that got shot did anything 'wrong' in this scenario causes the divide and the problem.

I've no idea what he did to cause the situation to begin with and no matter what it was, it wasn't enough to ever deserve death but he literally picked a hill to die on. It's absolutely not right at all that he was murdered like that no doubt but he DID contribute to it by ignoring them and going to his car.

Surely as a black man in the current climate in America with cops all pointing a gun at you, you live to fight another day and just stay down? It's awful that it's even a suggestion because it's so unjust to us but in that moment it's either that or you die isn't it? That's the choice black folk in America have right now when in that situation. Why purposely go for the option that gets you killed? If I'm a black guy in America and I get caught by the cops in 2020 with protests, rioting, looting, propaganda, bad police training, racism, everything going on, I'm complying so I don't die knowing full well even the merest hint on non-compliance and I'm dead.

We can absolutely allow for the thought that people won't act rationally in such a scenario and I hopefully will never be in that scenario so me commenting on what I personally would do is a bit rich but did the guy really think he'd get away with walking away from those monsters and going into his car? If he did then it's astonishing recklessness and a complete lack of awareness of the current climate.

Oh and the cops mightily fecked up and deserve to hang, in case you want to say I'm victim shaming. It's not nice to hear when someone gets unjustly murdered in cold blood like this but denying contributing factors from the poor victim's POV doesn't get us anywhere.
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No it doesn’t.
 
matherto said:
It's not though.

I think US Police are fecking terrible. Horribly trained, scared shitless, power tripping, racist monsters from everything I've seen.

BUT
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You don’t say “but” after that. You stop and that’s it.

matherto said:
To deny that the guy that got shot did anything 'wrong' in this scenario causes the divide and the problem.
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Shut the feck up.
 
Rado_N said:
You don’t say “but” after that. You stop and that’s it.



Shut the feck up.
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You're denying what happened.

The police shot him in cold blood seven times in the back, it's absolutely unjust, should never have happened, they should hang for what they did and absolutely nothing the victim did to cause them to pull him up warrants being murdered. We're ALL in agreement with that. That's one part of what happened that nobody can deny.

What happened to get to that stage though? Walk me through it. From the moment they drew guns on him in the first place to the moment he got shot repeatedly, what happened? We've all seen the video but what happened, did he magically get moved by some unknown, unseen force to a position where he was reaching into his car or did he do something? Anything? Before we get to the moment the officer made the choice to be an awful human being and pull the trigger, what happened Rado?

Forget apportioning blame because the blame lies with the officers shooting him. What happened? I know it's hugely uncomfortable but denying reality (i.e. no, he didn't walk to the car and reach in) isn't going to help,
 
Posh Red said:
No it doesn’t.
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Right - he's still alive
Wrong - he isn't

There was a right way to survive and a wrong way to die, he's dead so did he do the right thing in that scenario?

Not morally right because we know morality has flown out of the window in the event and also in terms of unjust killings of black Americans by racist white police, but right to survive?
 
He's not dead yet, apparently.

And he was breaking up a fight. What did he do that required the police to draw their weapons?
 
NotThatSoph said:
I suggest you take a look at that sentence one more time.
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How did he get shot if he didn't do anything? Did they shoot him when he had his hands up in front of the car or did they shoot him after he started walking towards it and leaned in?

We know US cops are horrendous but they don't just idly shoot willy nilly to waste bullets, there are always contributing factors to the mess they create each time this happens so what are they in this instance beyond bad training, racism, power tripping, scared shitless, etc? How did it get from point A = victim is alive to point B = victim is dead? (EDIT - not dead)
 
matherto said:
How did he get shot if he didn't do anything? Did they shoot him when he had his hands up in front of the car or did they shoot him after he started walking towards it and leaned in?

We know US cops are horrendous but they don't just idly shoot willy nilly to waste bullets, there are always contributing factors to the mess they create each time this happens so what are they in this instance beyond bad training, racism, power tripping, scared shitless, etc? How did it get from point A = victim is alive to point B = victim is dead? (EDIT - not dead)
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I suggest you reflect on what you said, that denying that he did anything wrong causes the problem and the divide. The problem is, among other things, that the cops are murdering people. What causes the police to murder people?
 
matherto said:
Right - he's still alive
Wrong - he isn't

There was a right way to survive and a wrong way to die, he's dead so did he do the right thing in that scenario?

Not morally right because we know morality has flown out of the window in the event and also in terms of unjust killings of black Americans by racist white police, but right to survive?
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You’re claiming that not apportioning some of the blame to the victim is part of the problem. I have no idea what you mean by that
 
Posh Red said:
You’re claiming that not apportioning some of the blame to the victim is part of the problem. I have no idea what you mean by that
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If there wasn't something in every single one of these events that the victim did that contributed to them dying or being wounded then you would have police genuinely gunning down people for no reason at all.

In this instance why didn't they shoot him dead whilst he was facing them in front of the car? We know they're poorly trained, we know they're scared shitless, we know they're racist, we know they've been hammered with propaganda, we know there are protests going on, we know that everything they do now is filmed and uploaded to social media in an instant and rightly so because it captures what happened so why didn't they just shoot him for the hell of it? What happened to cause the shooting in this instance?

It flies in the face of right and wrong because the only wrong is the officers pulling the trigger but how did it get to that stage?

I mean, if you go all in on denying that there was a catalyst for the trigger being pulled unique to this event beyond the factors mentioned above then you're saying they're gunning people down with absolutely no causality and we all know that isn't the case.

That's why there's a 'but'. There are shades of grey in everything. We accept the training, racism, power trip, scared reasons but what else is there because he didn't just get shot straight away?
 
matherto said:
It's not though.

I think US Police are fecking terrible. Horribly trained, scared shitless, power tripping, racist monsters from everything I've seen.

BUT

To deny that the guy that got shot did anything 'wrong' in this scenario causes the divide and the problem.

I've no idea what he did to cause the situation to begin with and no matter what it was, it wasn't enough to ever deserve death but he literally picked a hill to die on. It's absolutely not right at all that he was murdered like that no doubt but he DID contribute to it by ignoring them and going to his car.

Surely as a black man in the current climate in America with cops all pointing a gun at you, you live to fight another day and just stay down? It's awful that it's even a suggestion because it's so unjust to us but in that moment it's either that or you die isn't it? That's the choice black folk in America have right now when in that situation. Why purposely go for the option that gets you killed? If I'm a black guy in America and I get caught by the cops in 2020 with protests, rioting, looting, propaganda, bad police training, racism, everything going on, I'm complying so I don't die knowing full well even the merest hint on non-compliance and I'm dead.

We can absolutely allow for the thought that people won't act rationally in such a scenario and I hopefully will never be in that scenario so me commenting on what I personally would do is a bit rich but did the guy really think he'd get away with walking away from those monsters and going into his car? If he did then it's astonishing recklessness and a complete lack of awareness of the current climate.

Oh and the cops mightily fecked up and deserve to hang, in case you want to say I'm victim shaming. It's not nice to hear when someone gets unjustly murdered in cold blood like this but denying contributing factors from the poor victim's POV doesn't get us anywhere.
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Reports are that he solved a domestic conflict/broke up a fight. Police who responded to it and tried to arrest the guy, who apparently wasn't having any of it. The details of what happened between the police arriving and what's covered by the clip is scarce, but there was reportedly a brief scuffle and a taser that didn't have the desired effect.

That being said, it's fair to assume that the police arrived, saw a black guy and immediately pegged him as the suspect and wanted to bring him into custody.

As for your argument; it's disgusting and completely devoid of any humanity. Going "he didn't deserved to get shot, but what did he expect?" contributes to the normalisation of police killing civilians over the slightest transgression. Some dude gets angry and yells at them, police gets scared and kill him. Some other guy struggles as they try to put cuffs on him, so they shoot him in the back. A police officer thinks he saw a guy reaching for his waistband, so he dumps a mag at him. A guy informs police that he has a legally owned gun, so they kill him where he's sitting, in the passenger seat of his girlfriend's car.

The point is, they always have 'reasons', but they're often shit reasons. Where do you draw the line? At what point can the victim claim to have done nothing to warrant getting shot?

This idea that victims have to assume some blame when police decides to shoot them for tenuous reasons needs to die.
 
@Halftrack that's where we're at though. Black people in the US have the option of absolutely completely comply 1000000% and maybe they survive without being bullet ridden or they do what this guy did and they don't. That's how razor thin it is.

At no point during this do you see me suggesting this is morally right, that the victim deserved to get shot, advocating for the police or saying anything they did is even remotely justified but if you say he did absolutely nothing wrong (and I mean, in terms of right = not getting shot, wrong = getting shot) then you ignore that he DID walk to his car which set it in motion (and there was always choice to every party from that point on), otherwise they'd have just shot him when they got to him because they shoot black people, no?

It's completely devoid of humanity because the cops are completely devoid of humanity. Expecting them to show some got this guy shot, It's completely and utterly fecked.
 
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matherto said:
@Halftrack that's where we're at though. Black people in the US have the option of absolutely completely comply 1000000% and maybe they survive without being bullet ridden or they do what this guy did and they don't. That's how razor thin it is.

At no point during this do you see me suggesting this is morally right, that the victim deserved to get shot, advocating for the police or saying anything they did is even remotely justified but if you say he did absolutely nothing wrong (and I mean, in terms of right = not getting shot, wrong = getting shot) then you ignore that he DID walk to his car which set it in motion, otherwise they'd have just shot him when they got to him because they shoot black people, no?
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Why are you so hung up on apportioning him some of the blame? The issue here isn't police taking action against him for noncompliance, it's that they allowed him to walk to his car without stopping him, then shot him seven times in the back when he got there.
 
Halftrack said:
Why are you so hung up on apportioning him some of the blame? The issue here isn't police taking action against him for noncompliance, it's that they allowed him to walk to his car without stopping him, then shot him seven times in the back when he got there.
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Because they didn’t just shoot him.

Something had to happen for them to shoot him.

What happened? He got to his car and reached in and then they shot him. That implies that he did something. Like I said before, did he magically move from where he was to where he got shot or did he walk there?

It’s not his fault, but he did something to contribute towards this beyond just being black. Otherwise he’d have been shot there and then for being black.
 
matherto said:
Because they didn’t just shoot him.

Something had to happen for them to shoot him.

What happened? He got to his car and reached in and then they shot him. That implies that he did something. Like I said before, did he magically move from where he was to where he got shot or did he walk there?

It’s not his fault, but he did something to contribute towards this beyond just being black. Otherwise he’d have been shot there and then for being black.
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In the clusterfeck of a Maguire thread in the Football Forum, the last story is that some Albanian gangster hit on his sister, she rejected him and he then stabbed her with a metal straw. I have no idea if this is fact or fiction, but lets go with it. I'm sure you agree that if she had just slept with the guy, even though she didn't want to, she wouldn't have gotten stabbed with a metal straw. After all, he didn't go around stabbing everyone with a metal straw, and she wasn't a random victim. Something happened, there was a catalyst there. What do you do with this information?

In 2009, Chris Brown beat Rihanna to a pulp. They were in a relationship, and they were arguing. If she wasn't taking part in an argument with Chris Brown, or if she didn't agree to be in a relationship with Chris Brown at all, Chris Brown wouldn't have beaten her. He didn't go around beating random people for random things, something happened. What do you do with this information?

In 2017, in Charlottesville, Virginia, during the Unite the Right rally, the white supremacist James Fields killed Heather Heyer and injured several others with his car in a terrorist attack. He didn't drive around the US running over random people. If Heather Heyer didn't attend the counter protest, or if she was a nazi, James Field wouldn't have murdered her. What do you do with this information?
 
matherto said:
Because they didn’t just shoot him.

Something had to happen for them to shoot him.

What happened? He got to his car and reached in and then they shot him. That implies that he did something. Like I said before, did he magically move from where he was to where he got shot or did he walk there?

It’s not his fault, but he did something to contribute towards this beyond just being black. Otherwise he’d have been shot there and then for being black.
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Does it matter? They opted not to stop him while he was walking there, then shot him when he got there. It doesn't fecking matter what he did, they could have detained him without having to resort to lethal force, but didn't. Instead they waited until he got to his car, then shot him, no doubt for some tenuous reason, like "he could have used the car as a weapon" or "he could have had a gun in there".

You're coming off as an asshole here, all because you think the he must have done something to provoke it, ipso factum he deserved it, but not really, but it was his own fault, but it was wrong, but the police must have had as reason.
 
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