Cop in America doing a bad job, again

Rado_N said:
True.

What's the general attitude within the force towards the current environment and these cases we keep seeing? Are cops angry about the bad apples giving them a bad name or is resentment aimed elsewhere, at the press maybe for example?

Also, would you expect the average cop to do something about it if they witnessed something bad going down or is there a locker room style attitude to having each others backs no matter what?
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I can only speak for myself in terms of attitude, and what I see among my own department and shift.

Personally, I despise a lot of what the media puts out, because it's often out before the whole story, and it's put out in the most inflammatory way possible for their own agenda. With that being said, a lot of incidents still need to be brought to light, but it seems EVERY story is put out as "bad cop doing bad things" which isn't always the case. They also do very little to highlight the positive actions of law enforcement on the day to day, and when they go above and beyond. Two things which I've also noticed is prevalent in this thread, but that's beside the point :)

As for being mad at other officers, it's definitely something that officers do think about, and do find to cause issues. Just over this past weekend we had a shooting with the suspect shot and killed, and myself and my partner wrestled with a paranoid drug addict on a 5 day meth binge. In both cases, we did everything by the book and acted correctly, but there's still that sliver of doubt in the back of your mind about whether people will still criticize you because every other incident they might have seen recently was about an officer acting out of policy and the law and doing something illegal.

As for your last question, it is a little tricky since a lot of departments do have that "old boys" mentality of sticking together, which I think may be reinforced in some cases when there's witch hunts in the media. I do think each officer is responsible to speak out if he or she sees something bad, because it's really the only way to start putting a stop to the problem.
 
Rado_N said:
Are cops angry about the bad apples giving them a bad name or is resentment aimed elsewhere, at the press maybe for example?
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Would you grass on a colleague? At school, did you tell on other kids? I don't see cops being any different. If it's something as overt as being part of a crime, then maybe...but the normal instinct is to stick together.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Would you grass on a colleague? At school, did you tell on other kids? I don't see cops being any different. If it's something as overt as being part of a crime, then maybe...but the normal instinct is to stick together.
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If a colleague was doing something illegal and/or that would negatively affect the firm or it's reputation then yes I absolutely would have no qualms with reporting them.

School isn't really a good comparison, we don't want to he basing our decisions on what kids would do. Also they're likely to be facing much less serious issues.

Sticking together is all well and good and has obvious benefits to officer safety etc but they should not be covering for one another doing things wrong, especially around issues of brutality etc. They're not doing themselves any favours.
 
Rado_N said:
If a colleague was doing something illegal and/or that would negatively affect the firm or it's reputation then yes I absolutely would have no qualms with reporting them.

School isn't really a good comparison, we don't want to he basing our decisions on what kids would do. Also they're likely to be facing much less serious issues.

Sticking together is all well and good and has obvious benefits to officer safety etc but they should not be covering for one another doing things wrong, especially around issues of brutality etc. They're not doing themselves any favours.
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School was just an example of how people tend to stick together from early days. It's kind of ingrained in most of us.

I think cops have it much more difficult than rest of us. What is "excessive force" How do you define it? You have a cop in the middle of the action saying he felt threatened and you have a bunch of media/people who were not there claiming excessive force. It is by nature ambiguous, as actions as innocent as putting in your hand inside your jacket could mean pulling a driver's licence or pulling a gun. Different people react differently. At best it's an informed guess on who's right or wrong. And as fellow cops, they tend to give them much more leeway than media (which in all cases must be taken with pinch of salt).

I believe it's the same with armies. This is a guy you trust to hold your back in difficult situations and you really can't maintain that trust without give and take.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
School was just an example of how people tend to stick together from early days. It's kind of ingrained in most of us.

I think cops have it much more difficult than rest of us. What is "excessive force" How do you define it? You have a cop in the middle of the action saying he felt threatened and you have a bunch of media/people who were not there claiming excessive force. It is by nature ambiguous, as actions as innocent as putting in your hand inside your jacket could mean pulling a driver's licence or pulling a gun. Different people react differently. At best it's an informed guess on who's right or wrong. And as fellow cops, they tend to give them much more leeway than media (which in all cases must be taken with pinch of salt).

I believe it's the same with armies. This is a guy you trust to hold your back in difficult situations and you really can't maintain that trust without give and take.
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I think that's pretty disingenuous to be honest, there are countless examples that we've seen that are beyond doubt and not in the least bit "at best an informed guess". Look no further the the top of this page for an example.

Obviously there are more difficult and nuanced examples as well, but there's plenty where it's obvious that someone is doing something wrong, and these are just the cases we see. Cops will almost certainly see others that don't become public stories.

I empathise with the average cop in America, they do an impossible job with little thanks for the risks they take, but it's not unreasonable to expect a certain standard and the idea that they should never "grass" on each other no matter what is not aiding things and those who are in the wrong should not be wearing the uniform.
 
@Skizzo I also appreciate your feedback. As I said early in this thread I know a lot of good cops and can only minimally understand what they and their families go through on a daily basis.

I'm curious what you think should happen to this cop in the video and what you think will actually happen to him?
 
senorgregster said:
@Skizzo I also appreciate your feedback. As I said early in this thread I know a lot of good cops and can only minimally understand what they and their families go through on a daily basis.

I'm curious what you think should happen to this cop in the video and what you think will actually happen to him?
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Personally I think any officer acting outside of his departments policy and committing a crime should face the same charges and penalties as a "regular person" would.

As a somewhat unrelated note, and something that is quite often overlooked when people criticize police in general, is the completely different level of "normal" we operate under. It's by no means an excuse, and isn't anything someone should hide behind, but consider I make 100 contacts a month, some of those being tickets, some arrests, community contacts, verbal warnings, or just assisting motorists with disabled vehicles...98 of those will be completely mundane interactions with nothing interesting to report. Then we have a Friday night where at the very start of our shift we get a call of a traffic collision, which instead ended up being an attempted carjacking and kidnapping by a guy with a cannon of a revolver who ended up being shot as he began to point it at the officers on scene. I arrived and watched those same officers then render medical aid and provide cpr to the same guy, trying to save his life after he tried to take theirs.

Follow that up with our Saturday night where my partner and I make a stop on a possible dui driver. Contact him, get him out of the car to start a dui investigation, only to end up with both of us wrestling him to the ground and into handcuffs as he tried to get back to his car for who knows what.

It's a world people really don't understand, and getting a peek in every so often through news stories rarely gives you an actual idea of what happens on a regular basis, and what it takes to try and keep yourself in a place mentally where you can go from verbally reprimanding that teenager who just had to take that phone call, to helping the guy who blew his tire on a pothole, to then fighting for your life with the next person you contact who was "just another stop". Bit of a tangent I know, and rather unrelated to your question, but just something for people to keep in mind when they do question every officer out there.

And while I don't fully agree with @Edgar Allan Pillow's point above about sticking together for the sake of it, he does have a point that you do create a bond with a certain group of people that are the only ones that go through what you and your family goes through. Having that bond, and knowing that you would lay down your life to protect them, as they would for you, does sometimes skew viewpoints and what we may overlook for someone else. Not saying it's right or wrong, but many people would look the other way for family, even when things are illegal or immoral, and wouldn't think twice about it because it's family.
 
Skizzo said:
Personally I think any officer acting outside of his departments policy and committing a crime should face the same charges and penalties as a "regular person" would.

As a somewhat unrelated note, and something that is quite often overlooked when people criticize police in general, is the completely different level of "normal" we operate under. It's by no means an excuse, and isn't anything someone should hide behind, but consider I make 100 contacts a month, some of those being tickets, some arrests, community contacts, verbal warnings, or just assisting motorists with disabled vehicles...98 of those will be completely mundane interactions with nothing interesting to report. Then we have a Friday night where at the very start of our shift we get a call of a traffic collision, which instead ended up being an attempted carjacking and kidnapping by a guy with a cannon of a revolver who ended up being shot as he began to point it at the officers on scene. I arrived and watched those same officers then render medical aid and provide cpr to the same guy, trying to save his life after he tried to take theirs.

Follow that up with our Saturday night where my partner and I make a stop on a possible dui driver. Contact him, get him out of the car to start a dui investigation, only to end up with both of us wrestling him to the ground and into handcuffs as he tried to get back to his car for who knows what.

It's a world people really don't understand, and getting a peek in every so often through news stories rarely gives you an actual idea of what happens on a regular basis, and what it takes to try and keep yourself in a place mentally where you can go from verbally reprimanding that teenager who just had to take that phone call, to helping the guy who blew his tire on a pothole, to then fighting for your life with the next person you contact who was "just another stop". Bit of a tangent I know, and rather unrelated to your question, but just something for people to keep in mind when they do question every officer out there.

And while I don't fully agree with @Edgar Allan Pillow's point above about sticking together for the sake of it, he does have a point that you do create a bond with a certain group of people that are the only ones that go through what you and your family goes through. Having that bond, and knowing that you would lay down your life to protect them, as they would for you, does sometimes skew viewpoints and what we may overlook for someone else. Not saying it's right or wrong, but many people would look the other way for family, even when things are illegal or immoral, and wouldn't think twice about it because it's family.
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Thanks for the detailed post. I especially appreciate the context you provided!

What do you think will happen to him? If he was a regular person he'd be looking at assault? Will he lose his job?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Ah, ffs! It's not for the sake of it. My point was that certain departments like army, police, firemen etc creates bonds not seen in other jobs like banking.
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Then I agree more than initially stated then. Don't tell anyone we're agreeing on things though, @Pat_Mustard would never forgive me.


senorgregster said:
Thanks for the detailed post. I especially appreciate the context you provided!

What do you think will happen to him? If he was a regular person he'd be looking at assault? Will he lose his job?
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You're welcome.

I think he SHOULD lose his job, at the very least. I think one of the good things (and I use that somewhat loosely) about all these videos coming out is that some departments do then start to distance themselves from the officer and situation as they don't want to face that public and media backlash. Not always the case still, I know, but I believe it's starting to happen at least a little more often. I do hope, however, that in videos and situations like this, they explore every backdrop and prior interaction to see Igbo there was a history or if something triggered it. While it may not provide an excuse or good reason for something, any extra information on why someone may have exhibited certain behavior towards someone would be good in my opinion. A lot of times it feels like so much is judged on a (sometimes) short snippet of video and people make snap judgements before having all, or any, information.
 
Skizzo said:
Then I agree more than initially stated then. Don't tell anyone we're agreeing on things though, @Pat_Mustard would never forgive me.




You're welcome.

I think he SHOULD lose his job, at the very least. I think one of the good things (and I use that somewhat loosely) about all these videos coming out is that some departments do then start to distance themselves from the officer and situation as they don't want to face that public and media backlash. Not always the case still, I know, but I believe it's starting to happen at least a little more often. I do hope, however, that in videos and situations like this, they explore every backdrop and prior interaction to see Igbo there was a history or if something triggered it. While it may not provide an excuse or good reason for something, any extra information on why someone may have exhibited certain behavior towards someone would be good in my opinion. A lot of times it feels like so much is judged on a (sometimes) short snippet of video and people make snap judgements before having all, or any, information.
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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks again.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Ah, ffs! It's not for the sake of it. My point was that certain departments like army, police, firemen etc creates bonds not seen in other jobs like banking.
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Hedge Funds and investment banks create the same kind of environment between comrades. They also have facets that act illegally and an omerta exists.

If we take just that one video at the top of the page and cannot accept universally that the cop is probably not fit for purpose then we've no hope. There's zero excuse for the cop getting him on his feet and chocking him. If he needs to do that he's incompetent.

I realise that I'm replying to you about one thing and adding a secondary point. But I'll never understand the principle of "It's a different environment... so it's different". No. It's right and wrong. If we can't expect our police force to put that over and above 'Brothers in arms", we're fcuked.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Hedge Funds and investment banks create the same kind of environment between comrades. They also have facets that act illegally and an omerta exists.

If we take just that one video at the top of the page and cannot accept universally that the cop is probably not fit for purpose then we've no hope. There's zero excuse for the cop getting him on his feet and chocking him. If he needs to do that he's incompetent.

I realise that I'm replying to you about one thing and adding a secondary point. But I'll never understand the principle of "It's a different environment... so it's different". No. It's right and wrong. If we can't expect our police force to put that over and above 'Brothers in arms", we're fcuked.
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Aye, hedge funds and investments banks create life and death situations on daily basis. Seriously?
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Aye, hedge funds and investments banks create life and death situations on daily basis. Seriously?
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You've written something entirely unrelated to what I wrote.

My point of reference was a group of people working together in a way that had a tight 'us & them' dynamic where criminality was somewhat routine and covered up and understood by all involved.

Nothing about life and death.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
You've written something entirely unrelated to what I wrote.

My point of reference was a group of people working together in a way that had a tight 'us & them' dynamic where criminality was somewhat routine and covered up and understood by all involved.

Nothing about life and death.
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No I know what you've said mate. You've replied to a post which said the same environment (omertà as you put it, exists) with Bankers i.e. Corporate world. I can tell you right now it doesn't. First hand experience. It only exists with Hedge Fund managers et al as long as it serves their own purpose. Different cattle of fish with soldiers for instance. That bond/unity is for life. That's the difference.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
No I know what you've said mate. You've replied to a post which said the same environment (omertà as you put it, exists) with Bankers i.e. Corporate world. I can tell you right now it doesn't. First hand experience. It only exists with Hedge Fund managers et al as long as it serves their own purpose. Different cattle of fish with soldiers for instance. That bond/unity is for life. That's the difference.
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Therein lies the rub.

"It exists this way here because it does and outsiders could never understand"

It can be applied in so many places. That mindset exists in any environment that allows it to take hold. It's not a special thing. It's something that needs light and water to grow. It doesn't happen by accident. It's promoted through design and inaction.

I will make a small concession to soldiers that have been in war zones. Or police that routinely see gun violence on a daily basis in truly dangerous parts of the world.

I will not allow the protectionism to be even loosely applied to your average cop or soldier in day to day life. If a system is allowing people to write off bad behaviour and applying a special set of rules then it's doing something wrong. It's right and wrong. Plain and simple.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Therein lies the rub.

"It exists this way here because it does and outsiders could never understand"

It can be applied in so many places. That mindset exists in any environment that allows it to take hold. It's not a special thing. It's something that needs light and water to grow. It doesn't happen by accident. It's promoted through design and inaction.

I will make a small concession to soldiers that have been in war zones. Or police that routinely see gun violence on a daily basis in truly dangerous parts of the world.

I will not allow the protectionism to be even loosely applied to your average cop or soldier in day to day life. If a system is allowing people to write off bad behaviour and applying a special set of rules then it's doing something wrong. It's right and wrong. Plain and simple.
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It's actually like that with your average cop and a soldier. Obviously more so with soldiers who have seen combat. It is very frowned upon to be any sort of whistle blower at all. It's a career and a social suicide, considering all of your mates are likely to be your colleagues. So it's a difficult situation. Definitely more complex than a civvy street job.
 
No federal charges against officers in the Alton Sterling shooting.
The officer in the Walter Scott shooting pled guilty to federal charges.

Sounds about right
 
I would love to see a lot more community policing in this country. Officers leaving the guns and belts at the station and hitting the sidewalks, public areas and events to talk about issues and coordinated efforts to make us safer. To be there in a non threatening capacity to discuss with kids and teenagers, in every community, the importance of responsibility in society. Things that could be discussed could be aggressive and distracted driving, signs of domestic abuse, cruelty to animals and dealing with bullying. I have had many uneasy run ins with law enforcement when I was younger but also many positive interactions that have made me the person I am today. I accept the things I had done were needless and stupid, I'm ashamed every time I think of it but the good things police officers have done for me immediately puts a smile on my face.
A decriminalizing of marijuana or full legalization would I hope go a long way in funding such initiatives while relieving police departments of the burden of policing a weed. I really want to communicate with these important public servants on a more civilized level while they are executing their duties, 99% of us are not law breakers or violent criminals. Respect our intelligence and prosecute the police officers that break the law or go far beyond their protocols.
I will always cooperate with law enforcement unless I know they are being unreasonable. Being disrespectful is not a crime and should not be treated as such. Police departments need to start changing minds, as we all know in every walk of life there is a bad guy or a feck up but don't let the bad define the good.
 
Nobby style said:
God, this is nasty. Unarmed guy who´s car is stalled on the road, with his hands up, gets killed by a cop. Just seems like you find a stranded motorist in a stalled car on the road, and there´s four of you, maybe you should have a bit more of a helpful attitude. Guess that´s just not the case anymore.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...hows-oklahoma-police-kill-unarmed-man-n650866
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Resurrecting this post - just saw on the news that Officer Betty Shelby, who shot and killed Terrence Crutcher, was acquitted yesterday.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/17/us/tulsa-police-shooting-trial/
 
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Reminded of this thread when I watched "where to invade next" recently and the contrast shown between the US prison officers and the Norwegian ones was quite something. Of course I know M Moore was cherry picking but the stats for recidivism are startling.
 
utdalltheway said:
Reminded of this thread when I watched "where to invade next" recently and the contrast shown between the US prison officers and the Norwegian ones was quite something. Of course I know M Moore was cherry picking but the stats for recidivism are startling.
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That a film or a show?
 
Documentary film by Michael Moore. The title is misleading; he goes around various countries (mostly European) looking at good ideas to take back to the US. It's on amazon prime,iirc.
 
Anyone know what ever came of that student being choked and slammed in the clip on this page?

Additionally, what's up with this man in Mississippi on a shooting rampage, killing eight including a LEO, and stating he was seeking suicide by cop?
 
Carolina Red said:
Minn. officer acquitted of manslaughter for shooting Philando Castile during traffic stop - The Washington Post
https://apple.news/A382vQTVGQEe55UgTHOA9uA

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hooting-philando-castile-during-traffic-stop/
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There's still so little information on the circumstances surrounding what actually happened, but from the video itself it seemed like a bad shooting. I don't think a reasonable officer under the same circumstances would have done the same thing, which is what most deadly force/use of force incidents are judged on. He definitely appeared to panic. No criminal malice or intent so criminal charges were predictably not going to fly. Sucks for the family.
 
Carolina Red said:
Minn. officer acquitted of manslaughter for shooting Philando Castile during traffic stop - The Washington Post
https://apple.news/A382vQTVGQEe55UgTHOA9uA

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hooting-philando-castile-during-traffic-stop/
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I thought this was a slam dunk case to be honest. Not sure of all the court proceeding details, but add this one to the WTF column.

Only resort is to hope the city/police get reamed in a civil suit. Not holding my breath though.
 
Carolina Red said:
According to the dead man's partner, he was reaching for his identification.
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And the cop says he was reaching for his gun. Maybe the guy was reaching for his ID? We don't really know.

I would hate to be the police officer and make a split second discison on what to do if somebody you stopped reaches for something. Especially in those right to carry states.
 
Canuckred64 said:
Has to be incredibly hard for the police officer, the guy tells you he has a gun, you tell him not to reach for the gun, but he does anyway. Better save then sorry in my opinion.
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Why would he tell an officer he has a gun if he intends to reach for it?

He had his hands up, spoke in calm low tones, told the officer he had a gun, told him he was reaching for his ID AND had his child in the back seat.

Don't rewrite history because we all saw it on video.
 
This is the kind of case that riles up communities and doesn't give anybody any hope in the justice system actually serving justice.
 
I like the take Bomani Jones had on this issue....

Where are we getting all these cops who are absolutely petrified of black people and have to shoot them to feel safe?

Also, what does this say to the general public and the historical stereotypes we have of black people/men.

I honestly think we need to stop wasting money and time on court cases...if a cop(white, black, brown) shoots a black guy...just accept the black guy is to blame and move on.

This charade of going through the justice system just makes the pain worse for the victims.

Then again, with Trump and KKK Sessions around - I don't think they'll even bother charging the officers in future. :lol:
 
vi1lain said:
Why would he tell an officer he has a gun if he intends to reach for it?

He had his hands up, spoke in calm low tones, told the officer he had a gun, told him he was reaching for his ID AND had his child in the back seat.

Don't rewrite history because we all saw it on video.
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We did not see it on the video, the video began after the shooting. What led up to the shooting was not caught on video.
 
The fact that all a policeman has to do to be acquitted, is prove he was in fear of his life is a travesty.
He doesn't even have to prove he has probable cause.
That's straight up license to kill. Something is definitely wrong in America.
I watched the video last year, the policeman was more emotionally unstable than the girlfriend and the child.
 
Adisa said:
The fact that all a policeman has to do to be acquitted, is prove he was in fear of his life is a travesty.
He doesn't even have to prove he has probable cause.
That's straight up license to kill. Something is definitely wrong in America.
I watched the video last year, the policeman was more emotionally unstable than the girlfriend and the child.
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I agree that the cop was very unstable. But what standard would you set for deadly force if not "fear
For life"?
The reason why it's so difficult for an officer to get convicted, and most people don't realize this, is that you have to prove criminal intent, or mens rea. It's rare that officer involved shootings are the result of malice and intent. There are plenty of negligent shootings though, the castille one being an example.
 
adexkola said:
I thought this was a slam dunk case to be honest. Not sure of all the court proceeding details, but add this one to the WTF column.

Only resort is to hope the city/police get reamed in a civil suit. Not holding my breath though.
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:( I Can't believe that I still get shocked everytime police officers get away with these stuff in 'Merica, since it happens so often.
 
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