Gerrard and Lumpard out!
Communicado Official: Casemiro #18
- Thread starter Samid
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Very honest and non condescending question, why the feck should United have signed Rice?
He's worse than Casemiro at all attributes, from passing, shielding, dribbling, defending and so on. He only has age and the fact he is an overrated Brittish dude.
I'm really not trying to shit on your opinion, but Declan fecking Rice didn't achieve anything in football until now, other than playing for a mediocre West Ham side and standing out.
You can't have a long term plan without short term steps. Both go together.
Long term success in football is just a series of short term of successes. Every season you start of fresh and you have the opportunity to win the same set of trophies.
Is it really any wonder there's negativity when our last signing to make a difference was probably RVP over a decade ago? There's been 48 signings since SAF retired and in my mind there's probably been only 1 that could say has been a relative success and that's Shaw. That's how bad our transfer policy has been.
Every season is the same. We sign a player who at the start is going to make a difference and most people buy into the hype until about 6 months later when he's labelled crap. Fair dues to Bruno who lasted about 18 months though. Nearly an all time post SAF record.
On paper Casemiro looks a very good signing but for some they'd rather wait a season before assessing how he's going to cope with the pace of the PL which is way different to La Liga before jumping on the hype train although I must admit if we did get FDJ I'd be ridin that train myself.
Oh well you put it in capitals so it must be true.
Not just but it's a large part of it. A long term plan is important in certain aspects, for example when it comes to the framework of your team, the way you want to play during the next 3 to 5 years, how you are going to replace a player that is already in your team. But it doesn't apply to signing a top player that is in the middle of his prime, that's a move that you are supposed to make when you don't have a player of that caliber in your team, the long term plan is now to understand how we are going to replace him in 2 to 5 years.
People seem to think that gambling on young unproven players is a sound long term strategy just because the players are young when it's just gambling your wage while being homeless.
What long term plan? The last couple of seasons our main signings Ronaldo, Sancho, Varane, Eriksen, Casemiro, Malacia and Martinez have an average age of 28. Where's the long term planning? We're just making it up as we go along.
In your list 3 of the signings are long term, 3 are mid term and one is short term. There is nothing special about it, this isn't FM you don't sign a bunch 18 years old players and expect them to without fault reach top level within a year or two.
You can’t just write off several seasons for a “proper” long term rebuild at club like Man United.
There’s too much money involved from CL and sponsors, so there’s that pressure to make the top 4 that comes with that.
For a long term plan to work we need a core base of very good young players. What's the point of bringing in Eriksen and Casemiro when they're going to be teaching players not good enough to play at United? We've been rebuilding for a decade now and nothing has worked but our transfer policy hasn't changed at all. Its still throw money at the problem and see if it'll stick instead of having a clear plan.
Hasn't Arsenal done just that? Of course it may all go wrong for them but the signs are a lot more promising than ours.
I’m still pinching myself that we’ve signed a defensive midfielder. Only the second time since we signed schniederlin in 2015. Other was obviously Matic. Complete disregard for such an important position in modern football
You do know we have only just reviewed and appointed the recruitment team don’t you? Infact there’s still spots to fill. And that gathering the right targets to fit the new profile takes time and fresh data? To expect United to be unearthing gems this window shows you have little insight to the gigantic changes taking place in terms of recruitment and structure.
This window was always going to be difficult, much like Chelsea’s having lost Marina and Cech. They also have the benefit of Tuchel who has been at the club over a season longer and has a more settled squad. Look who they have targeted.
Wrong thread?
That bold part is fundamentally wrong. A long term plan doesn't have to concern the same group of players, a long term plan only means that you have a projection that is generally beyond 5 years. If you for example plan on bringing players that are meant to give you short term success(1-2 years) alongside players that are meant to be at the club mid term(3 to 4 years) and are already planning on how you are going to replace both groups, you have a long term plan. And that's without ever looking at players age(I'm not suggesting to not also sign young players).
What you are suggesting isn't a plan, it's one criteria that is meaningless without context. For example what do you do if you are currently not at the required level? What do you do if the young players that you brought don't develop into core players? Do you target younger players that may become core players in 2 to 3 years and therefore likely reboot everything every other years? You are not planning but gambling and hoping.
You really think we have some great long term plan?
I don't know what we have. What I do know is that a mid term signing doesn't indicate that you do not have a long term vision.
We had potential players on our attacking side before (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Pogba, Amad, Pellistri, Jones, Van De Beek), they were young enough (under 23) when joined us
Oh wait, they are fecking off / fecked off / still waiting for explosion. A long term plan would be changed everyday, players can be free failed any day and there is no guarantee that they must grow refer to PA/CA value.
In football side, a long term plan (young player growth) isn't everything, it just means you don't have to pay that much to win, but nowadays, the price of young talent players are insane expansive but you still have to wait them growing.
Also, in a decant, ManUtd haven't a steady environment / tactic / manager / management to attract young players to come without a fat contract. Moreover we haven't rich as Chelsea / City to buy a box of talent and loan them out then wait who can breakthrough.
Now, we need to go back a steady environment first (at least, manager & tactic need to be steady)
We should've signed Rice instead
This lot are best ignored. We could sign Messi, Mbappe and Haaland and they would make snide remarks.
Merson is clearly on a wind up, claimed Ronaldo was a bad signing for us yet he would be brilliant for Chelsea...
Exactly. Not sure shaw is a success though. I’d probably say pre Ronaldo Bruno was successful. Maybe Zlatan too. The rest have been expensive flops hence the pessimism.
I hope it works out my friend.
yes, sorry
We should be happy about this signing as it would help us now and midterm.
If he can give us just 2 to 3 yrs of very good performances then it is worth it for us. We will have time to go and fix other area of the team and come back to replace him later.
Long term plan is nothing if theres no short to midterm relevance. Long term plan is just the structure you need like how you want to play, scouting players and buying them accordingly to our current need from the squad. It doesnt mean that you gave to go and buy a bunch of young players and called it long term plan. What happen if the players wont progress to the expectation? What happens if they want to leave for others in 2 to 3 yrs because we are not any more relevance? Look at Arsenal under Wenger late on. They buying, growing, and playing a bunch of young players to no avail in term of success and we used to laugh at them because every other years their young players is either no good enough or just want to leave cause they out grow them.
Within longnterm plan, there are more criterials, planning, being flexible to suprise events...ect. You can see that Madrid is doing good as they have a core of great and experienced player. Then they go and buy young and upcoming good player to play under them and can afford to sell 1 now as they have the other 2 left. And those 2 players will eventually phase out every other year.
If he can give us just 2 to 3 yrs of very good performances then it is worth it for us. We will have time to go and fix other area of the team and come back to replace him later.
Long term plan is nothing if theres no short to midterm relevance. Long term plan is just the structure you need like how you want to play, scouting players and buying them accordingly to our current need from the squad. It doesnt mean that you gave to go and buy a bunch of young players and called it long term plan. What happen if the players wont progress to the expectation? What happens if they want to leave for others in 2 to 3 yrs because we are not any more relevance? Look at Arsenal under Wenger late on. They buying, growing, and playing a bunch of young players to no avail in term of success and we used to laugh at them because every other years their young players is either no good enough or just want to leave cause they out grow them.
Within longnterm plan, there are more criterials, planning, being flexible to suprise events...ect. You can see that Madrid is doing good as they have a core of great and experienced player. Then they go and buy young and upcoming good player to play under them and can afford to sell 1 now as they have the other 2 left. And those 2 players will eventually phase out every other year.
There, in a nutshell, is the overrating of English players to a quite frankly absurd degree.
Who the feck who choose a guy who’s achieved absolutely feck all in his career over a guy who’s not only better at every aspect of football, but has the trophies to go with it?
Rice obviously is not as good as Casemiro at the moment but for where we are a younger player is more suited for the rebuild. For instance Tchuameni is not good as Casemiro too but he also would have been the better option for us.
he’s not fit to lace his boots more like.
no, for where we are, the massively better player is more suited.
Imagine not being satisfied with signing the best DM in the world at the moment. We can now place younger players around him and they can learn from his vast experience and pedigree without being thrown into the fire in a dysfunctional team.
Why are people so absolutist? Casemiro may be better signing, but it will depend if he ages like say Fernandinho or Matic. There's no harm in acknowledging that signing a younger player has some advantages and some risks, and signing an older player has some advantages and some risks.
i would also be happy with signing a younger player. But spunking 150m on Declan Fecking Rice is no less of a risk than what we've spent on Casemiro, particularly when Rice is nowhere near the player that Casemiro is, and probably never will be.
That's what I said, basically.
Casemiro is one of the best DMs of the last 30 years, so I don't think matching his level is a realistic aim for any future signing. We'll be back in the market for a DM in 2-3 years time, and a player of Rice's level would be a good signing for the right price. Which £150m wouldn't be, obviously.
It's all by the by anyway, as Rice wouldn't have had any interest in joining us.
Rice is a more complete box to box player in his profile, closer to Keane circa 97-02 (although not quite at Keane's level of consistency in pushing the team forward, transitioning the play quickly and playing the 'pass before the pass' or pre-assist). Casemiro has been played as a box-to-box on occasion in recent times, as Balangue brings up, and scored a few goals, but his game isn't as incisive as peak Keane or even current Rice, both in terms of lateral passing and driving with the ball. Alongside a scheming no.8 able to carry the ball under pressure and interplay with full-backs + the no.10 he can be very effective short-term - Cas' positional awareness is night and day compared with McTominay, and Balangue's exaggerating the extent to which Madrid play a deep-lying counterpunch game covering for his 'lack of pace'.
Iqbal could potentially become that no.8, or at least the 1st replacement for them off the bench, but he's not at Gavi levels of precocity and probably needs 2 seasons, so in the absence of Frenkie, selling off McTom to free up space of more funds and bringing in someone like SMS would probably work for the next 12 months, at least in terms of successful Europa League campaign, whilst scouting system organizes itself properly - and hopefully the club is sold. Tielemens wouldn' t be awful but I'm not sold on his short-passing game ; likewise Neves would (a) be overpriced (b) make the midfield a bit one-paced and (c) probably work better in his spread of play with the kind of quick transition counter-attacking game which only Martial amongst current forwards is really suited to....
This. I don't know why people are pretending like a younger class player wouldn't have been the best option. No one is doubting that Casemiro can give us a couple word class seasons or more if things go our way for once.
Casemiro's personality is that of an Ultra proffesional, leader. By all accounts he takes phenomenal care of himself, relies on his brain just as much as he does his body. Don't be surprised if he plays to a world class level for another 4/5 years.
Fingers crossed, body and mind are two separate things though, and there's no guarantees for any player despite the efforts they make to maintain their body. We will definitely be in for a DM again soon (arguably we need a second already, as none of our other midfielders can actually play that role). Whether it's someone to replace Casemiro, or a young understudy, or someone who could both partner him or play his role if he's not playing.
Is it me or does this only happen with our new players?
Happens all the time with us. Seems every signing we make is held up by a couple of weeks due to visa issues.
Does this tweet mean he won’t be officially unveiled on Monday or that he won’t play on Monday ? As we all know he was never playing anyway…
Shaw's been a success, but not Fernandes or Ibrahimovic?