Music Commercial Hip Hop Thread

[villain]

I think the whole "drake is a popstar" angle is played out, he has pop singles, but he's obviously not a pop star.
His albums cant be both culture vulturing and pop, it's one or the other. None of his albums or mixtapes are pop, and a handful of his singles are.
Him singing on the hooks isn't pop either.

You begin to sound like a hater, and not at all subjective if you're peddling the whole pop star angle.

 

[Solius]

The Pusha reply was brutal

 

[2mufc0]

I think the whole "drake is a popstar" angle is played out, he has pop singles, but he's obviously not a pop star.
His albums cant be both culture vulturing and pop, it's one or the other. None of his albums or mixtapes are pop, and a handful of his singles are.
Him singing on the hooks isn't pop either.

You begin to sound like a hater, and not at all subjective if you're peddling the whole pop star angle.

He's in a unique category for me, can see both angles, he's sdmewhere in the middle i guess. But that's based on his first few albums, haven't really listened to his latest stuff as i'm not really into his type of music, so maybe he has changed.

 

[villain]

He's in a unique category for me, can see both angles, he's sdmewhere in the middle i guess. But that's based on his first few albums, haven't really listened to his latest stuff as i'm not really into his type of music, so maybe he has changed.

He's definitely unique I'd agree, but he's still a rapper at the end of the day.

His newer stuff is more rappy, but it's never going to be stereotypical rap, that's never been what he does.

 

[Bubz27]

I think the whole "drake is a popstar" angle is played out, he has pop singles, but he's obviously not a pop star.
His albums cant be both culture vulturing and pop, it's one or the other. None of his albums or mixtapes are pop, and a handful of his singles are.
Him singing on the hooks isn't pop either.

You begin to sound like a hater, and not at all subjective if you're peddling the whole pop star angle.

But surely, by definition, as long as his music is popular, it is 'pop'? And he is a star? So he is a popstar?

And one thing I think everyone can agree on with Drake, his music is popular.

 

[villain]

But surely, by definition, as long as his music is popular, it is 'pop'? And he is a star? So he is a popstar?

And one thing I think everyone can agree on with Drake, his music is popular.

But then keep that same energy for Jay-Z, Kendrick, Eminem, J Cole and all these other 'popular' rappers, no?
Start calling Kendrick & Eminem a popstar and you begin to see how ridiculous it sounds.

Also - Pop music is not just popular music, the two are different. Pop isn't short for popular.

 

[Bubz27]

But then keep that same energy for Jay-Z, Kendrick, Eminem, J Cole and all these other 'popular' rappers, no?
Start calling Kendrick & Eminem a popstar and you begin to see how ridiculous it sounds.

Also - Pop music is not just popular music, the two are different. Pop isn't short for popular.

It sounds ridiculous because Kendrick has never released a pop song and Drake has.

Fwiw I've never called Drake a pop star, but I can see why people have. He blurs lines, which is part of his genius imo. He appeals to a huge market. Whole groups of people that Kendrick and J.Cole probably never could appeal to.

Pop music and popular music have been used intervinterchan for decades. Maybe in the 60s and 70s pop became it's own separate genre.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Pusha's Daytona is pretty good too. Short but I kind of like the format. No fillers or bullshit for the sake of adding tracks.

 

[villain]

It sounds ridiculous because Kendrick has never released a pop song and Drake has.

Fwiw I've never called Drake a pop star, but I can see why people have. He blurs lines, which is part of his genius imo. He appeals to a huge market. Whole groups of people that Kendrick and J.Cole probably never could appeal to.

Pop music and popular music have been used intervinterchan for decades. Maybe in the 60s and 70s pop became it's own separate genre.

Releasing a few pop songs doesn't make you a pop star, in the same way that Lil Wayne releasing a rock album doesn't make him a rock star.
(Plus Kendrick has featured on a lot of pop songs, a lot more than Drake has if my memory serves me correctly)

Drake is a rap star, calling him pop star is only done to make him seem less authentic and not a 'real rapper' like I said, it's played out and it's what people who don't like Drake do, it's not an objective critique of him at all, because none of it uses facts.
He blurs the line by using different cultures, and making them trendy, that absolutely is part of his genius - but he's not making Kylie Minogue & Taylor Swift songs. There's a very distinct difference.

Pop music and rock music were used interchangably until sometime in the 60s.
A lot of people just assume pop music is popular music, but they are two very different things.

 

[Adzzz]

Releasing a few pop songs doesn't make you a pop star, in the same way that Lil Wayne releasing a rock album doesn't make him a rock star.
(Plus Kendrick has featured on a lot of pop songs, a lot more than Drake has if my memory serves me correctly)

Drake is a rap star, calling him pop star is only done to make him seem less authentic and not a 'real rapper' like I said, it's played out and it's what people who don't like Drake do, it's not an objective critique of him at all, because none of it uses facts.
He blurs the line by using different cultures, and making them trendy, that absolutely is part of his genius - but he's not making Kylie Minogue & Taylor Swift songs. There's a very distinct difference.

Pop music and rock music were used interchangably until sometime in the 60s.
A lot of people just assume pop music is popular music, but they are two very different things.

They better start updating dictionaries and scholarship pronto.

 

[Bubz27]

Releasing a few pop songs doesn't make you a pop star, in the same way that Lil Wayne releasing a rock album doesn't make him a rock star.
(Plus Kendrick has featured on a lot of pop songs, a lot more than Drake has if my memory serves me correctly)

Drake is a rap star, calling him pop star is only done to make him seem less authentic and not a 'real rapper' like I said, it's played out and it's what people who don't like Drake do, it's not an objective critique of him at all, because none of it uses facts.
He blurs the line by using different cultures, and making them trendy, that absolutely is part of his genius - but he's not making Kylie Minogue & Taylor Swift songs. There's a very distinct difference.

Pop music and rock music were used interchangably until sometime in the 60s.
A lot of people just assume pop music is popular music, but they are two very different things.

I don't understand why you seem to think calling Drake a pop star is people criticising him, like it's an insult. Kendrick featuring on a pop track and Drake making a pop song are different, regardless of how many features one had and how many songs the other has made.

This stuff about what pop music actually is is entirely subjective. You speak as if it's entirely fact that pop and popular are completely different, when throughout history they haven't been.

"According to the website of The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, called Grove Music Online, the term "pop music" "originated in Britain in the mid-1950’s as a description for rock and roll"

"From about 1967, the term “pop music” was increasingly used in opposition to the term rock music, a division that gave generic significance to both terms.[13] While rock aspired to authenticity and an expansion of the possibilities of popular music,[13]pop was more commercial, ephemeral, and accessible"

"According to British musicologist Simon Frith, pop music is produced "as a matter of enterprise not art", and is "designed to appeal to everyone" but "doesn't come from any particular place or mark off any particular taste".

Imo, the best definition of pop music...

Pop music continuously evolves along with the term's definition. According to The New Grove Dictionary Of Music and Musicians, popular music is defined as "the music since industrialization in the 1800’s that is most in line with the tastes and interests of the urban middle class.

You say

A lot of people just assume pop music is popular music, but they are two very different things.

But The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians seems to disagree with you? If we take the urban middle class as the majority, which would make anything they like popular.

 

[Muffled funk]

Drake is a rap star, calling him pop star is only done to make him seem less authentic and not a 'real rapper' like I said, it's played out and it's what people who don't like Drake do, it's not an objective critique of him at all, because none of it uses facts.

'' Yeah but I feel like, at the end of the day when it comes to everything else I’m Black. I am referred to as a Black artist, last night at that Awards show, I’m a Black artist. I’m apparently a ‘rapper’ even though ‘Hotline Bling’ is not a rap song. The only category that they can manage to fit me in is a ‘rap’ category, maybe because I’ve rapped in the past, or because I’m Black, I can’t figure out why. Just like I can’t figure out why ‘One Dance’ wasn’t nominated, maybe because they can’t… I mean, well it’s just there’s pop obligations that they have and I fluked out, I fluked out and got one of the biggest songs of the year that is a pop song and I’m proud of that, you know. I love the rap world, I love the rap community, but you’re right I write pop songs for a reason, I wanna be like Michael Jackson, I wanna be like artists that I looked up to, those are pop songs but I never get any credit to that. " drake 2017

 

[villain]

I don't understand why you seem to think calling Drake a pop star is people criticising him, like it's an insult. Kendrick featuring on a pop track and Drake making a pop song are different, regardless of how many features one had and how many songs the other has made.

This stuff about what pop music actually is is entirely subjective. You speak as if it's entirely fact that pop and popular are completely different, when throughout history they haven't been.

"According to the website of The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, called Grove Music Online, the term "pop music" "originated in Britain in the mid-1950’s as a description for rock and roll"

"From about 1967, the term “pop music” was increasingly used in opposition to the term rock music, a division that gave generic significance to both terms.[13] While rock aspired to authenticity and an expansion of the possibilities of popular music,[13]pop was more commercial, ephemeral, and accessible"

"According to British musicologist Simon Frith, pop music is produced "as a matter of enterprise not art", and is "designed to appeal to everyone" but "doesn't come from any particular place or mark off any particular taste".

Imo, the best definition of pop music...

Pop music continuously evolves along with the term's definition. According to The New Grove Dictionary Of Music and Musicians, popular music is defined as "the music since industrialization in the 1800’s that is most in line with the tastes and interests of the urban middle class.

You say

A lot of people just assume pop music is popular music, but they are two very different things.

But The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians seems to disagree with you? If we take the urban middle class as the majority, which would make anything they like popular.

But again - if we are to use the idea that 'pop music' is only for popular music - then Kendrick, Jay-Z, Eminem etc are also great pop stars, no?

Which is why I said if you're going to call Drake pop music, then by definition you have to call most of commercial hip hop pop music too, and how would you define it differently to the music that Katy Perry & Taylor Swift put out for example?

'' Yeah but I feel like, at the end of the day when it comes to everything else I’m Black. I am referred to as a Black artist, last night at that Awards show, I’m a Black artist. I’m apparently a ‘rapper’ even though ‘Hotline Bling’ is not a rap song. The only category that they can manage to fit me in is a ‘rap’ category, maybe because I’ve rapped in the past, or because I’m Black, I can’t figure out why. Just like I can’t figure out why ‘One Dance’ wasn’t nominated, maybe because they can’t… I mean, well it’s just there’s pop obligations that they have and I fluked out, I fluked out and got one of the biggest songs of the year that is a pop song and I’m proud of that, you know. I love the rap world, I love the rap community, but you’re right I write pop songs for a reason, I wanna be like Michael Jackson, I wanna be like artists that I looked up to, those are pop songs but I never get any credit to that. " drake 2017

At what point did I say that he hasn't made pop songs? A lot of his singles are pop.
His albums are rap, r&b and whatever culture he wants to use at the time, there's a difference.
Calling him a pop star means he only makes pop songs, which isn't true. He makes many more rap songs than he does pop.

In fact what is his last pop song? One Dance? so 2 years ago?

 

[Muffled funk]

But again - if we are to use the idea that 'pop music' is only for popular music - then Kendrick, Jay-Z, Eminem etc are also great pop stars, no?

Which is why I said if you're going to call Drake pop music, then by definition you have to call most of commercial hip hop pop music too, and how would you define it differently to the music that Katy Perry & Taylor Swift put out for example?



At what point did I say that he hasn't made pop songs? A lot of his singles are pop.
His albums are rap, r&b and whatever culture he wants to use at the time, there's a difference.
Calling him a pop star means he only makes pop songs, which isn't true. He makes many more rap songs than he does pop.

In fact what is his last pop song? One Dance? so 2 years ago?

you said calling him a pop star is done by haters and not wanting him to be authentic but he himself wants to be recognised more as a popstar as thats who he looks up too and wants to be like.

 

[villain]

you said calling him a pop star is done by haters and not wanting him to be authentic but he himself wants to be recognised more as a popstar as thats who he looks up too and wants to be like

He wants to be the biggest artist in the world which is why he referenced MJ, but he's been saying that since 2007 - so it's no surprise at all.
I'm simply saying that only calling him a pop star is false, he's every bit a rapper, unique yes, but very much a rapper.
The context of calling him a pop star is done to make it seem as though he's not an authentic rapper, and therefore his ability is less credible.

 

[Bubz27]

But again - if we are to use the idea that 'pop music' is only for popular music - then Kendrick, Jay-Z, Eminem etc are also great pop stars, no?

Which is why I said if you're going to call Drake pop music, then by definition you have to call most of commercial hip hop pop music too, and how would you define it differently to the music that Katy Perry & Taylor Swift put out for example

Yeah we can call them pop stars too, as their music is popular. Pop stars who are rappers. That wasn't too hard.

And we can define it differently to Taylor and Katy and here's how. What Taylor and Katy put out is shite. What Drake and Kendrick put out isn't.

Seriously though, even though I'm not a fan, Taylor's music is popular which makes it pop.

 

[villain]

Yeah we can call them pop stars too, as their music is popular. Pop stars who are rappers. That wasn't too hard.

And we can define it differently to Taylor and Katy and here's how. What Taylor and Katy put out is shite. What Drake and Kendrick put out isn't.

Seriously though, even though I'm not a fan, Taylor's music is popular which makes it pop.

True.

I see it differently, Taylor's music is popular yes, but it's Pop Music. You've got plenty of pop stars who aren't popular.

Popular music can be any genre, any iteration of music.
If a rap song becomes popular, it doesn't suddenly stop being hip hop and become pop, it just becomes popular.

Hip-hop is (I think?) the most popular genre of music, I just don't see how you can claim it as Pop music, then also classify Taylor/Katy/whoever else in that same genre, when the only comparisons are that they're both popular songs that chart well.

 

[Snowjoe]

What Drake and Katy put out is shite. What Taylor and Kendrick put out isn't.

Fixed

 

[Muffled funk]

He wants to be the biggest artist in the world which is why he referenced MJ, but he's been saying that since 2007 - so it's no surprise at all.
I'm simply saying that only calling him a pop star is false, he's every bit a rapper, unique yes, but very much a rapper.
The context of calling him a pop star is done to make it seem as though he's not an authentic rapper, and therefore his ability is less credible.

" i write pop songs for a reason, I wanna be like Michael Jackson (a popstar), I wanna be like artists that I looked up to(popstars), those are pop songs" Yes he himself says he wants to be the biggest artist in the world and states the way for him to to do this is by writing pop songs and being recognised as a pop artist which he isn't being as his pop songs are only put in rap categories at awards shows. At this point it is basically racism to call him a rapper.

 

[Rado_N]

Fixed

My man.

 

[Bubz27]

True.

I see it differently, Taylor's music is popular yes, but it's Pop Music. You've got plenty of pop stars who aren't popular.

Popular music can be any genre, any iteration of music.
If a rap song becomes popular, it doesn't suddenly stop being hip hop and become pop, it just becomes popular.

Hip-hop is (I think?) the most popular genre of music, I just don't see how you can claim it as Pop music, then also classify Taylor/Katy/whoever else in that same genre, when the only comparisons are that they're both popular songs that chart well.

We just have a fundamental difference between what we classify as pop and popular.

 

[villain]

" i write pop songs for a reason, I wanna be like Michael Jackson (a popstar), I wanna be like artists that I looked up to(popstars), those are pop songs" Yes he himself says he wants to be the biggest artist in the world and states the way for him to to do this is by writing pop songs and being recognised as a pop artist which he isn't being as his pop songs are only put in rap categories at awards shows. At this point it is basically racism to call him a rapper.

MJ is an interesting point, he absolutely was the biggest artist of that time (arguably still is), made a lot of pop singles, but his albums were a mixture of pop, r&b, disco, funk, motown etc. So yes, the songs he put out, charted well, were pop and were very popular.
But his catalogue was always eclectic, he always switched his sounds to make his music more relevant in whatever period he was in - which is what Drake does, so again it makes sense why he looks up to MJ, considering he's attempting to use a similar formula.
But again - the majority of Drake's catalogue is rap, that's just a fact, and putting out the occasional pop song doesn't make you a pop star.

It's not racism to call him a rapper, don't be ridiculous

We just have a fundamental difference between what we classify as pop and popular.

We definitely do, which is fine.

 

[Rado_N]

Hold on, are you now arguing that the king of pop wasn't actually a pop artist?

 

[villain]

Hold on, are you now arguing that the king of pop wasn't actually a pop artist?

Nope, making a few pop songs doesn't make you a pop star.
The drake quote was him saying he wants to make pop songs, but doesn't say he wants to be a pop star, just he wants to the biggest artist like MJ.

 

[Rado_N]

Taylor Swift isn't a pop singer then, she's a country music singer.

 

[villain]

Taylor Swift isn't a pop singer then, she's a country music singer.

Why are you not quoting.

Anyway I'm not a Taylor fan, but from my understanding she only does pop music now, and hasn't released a country song in a few years?

 

[Solius]

Gonna reply to vi1lain without quoting from now on until I die.

 

[Muffled funk]

The drake quote was him saying he wants to make pop songs, but doesn't say he wants to be a pop star, just he wants to the biggest artist like MJ.

That is like @Summit wanting to suck dick but not be considered gay.

 

[Rado_N]

Why are you not quoting.

Anyway I'm not a Taylor fan, but from my understanding she only does pop music now, and hasn't released a country song in a few years?

Nobody else had said anything so it was the next post.

Drake's stuff is all pop too.

 

[villain]

That is like @Summit wanting to suck dick but not be considered gay, he just wants to be the biggest prostitute in the world.

Well, sexuality is a spectrum so, no it doesn't necessarily make you gay if you do that.
And if he wants to be a prostitute more power to him.

Nobody else had said anything so it was the next post.

Drake's stuff is all pop too.

Fair do's, and nah it's not.
But I can't remember the last time we agreed on something to do with hip-hop, or anything really.

 

[Rado_N]

Fair do's, and nah it's not.
But I can't remember the last time we agreed on something to do with hip-hop, or anything really.

You're a self confessed "Stan" though, so you're obviously not impartial when it comes to his music and therefore can't be trusted.

 

[villain]

You're a self confessed "Stan" though, so you're obviously not impartial when it comes to his music and therefore can't be trusted.

Not really, because i've openly praised the diss track earlier in this thread and welcomed the beef, I don't even think I commented on "Duppy" - plus I criticised him wearing blackface. There are also times where I've critiqued songs he's put out, which is more than the people who hate certain artists can do, when it comes to praising good songs from artists they don't like.

Calling myself a stan is me acknowledging that I like a lot of his music, but it doesn't mean that I can't comment on critique directed towards him, especially since the arguments I used were objective, and could be used for any artist who also fits in that mould, no? Plus the criticism isn't really about his ability, but more so the idea that he is inauthentic for releasing a few pop songs.

I don't blindly follow what he does, and automatically like everything that he does, but equally I'm not going to go along with the crowd because that's what's pop

 

[Rado_N]

He's still a pop artist though.

 

[adexkola]

50 Cent called Ja Rule a pop star. Not as a matter of fact (Ja had several No 1 charting singles at his zenith), but as an insult. Not to his artistic skill, but to his street cred. And, strangely, it kind of worked. Ja went from dope to corny within the space of 18 months.

Now I'm not sure that this will work with Drake. He embraces corniness.

 

[villain]

50 then went on to release a few pop songs - but the idea of calling 50cent a pop star is ridiculous, even though what he did, is what Drake & others are doing.

 

[adexkola]

50 then went on to release a few pop songs - but the idea of calling 50cent a pop star is ridiculous, even though what he did, is what Drake & others are doing.

I agree. I'm saying that people are calling Drake a pop star as an insult to his "street cred". Not his skill as a rapper.

Here's a good acid test. Is Flo Rida a pop star?

 

[Rado_N]

I agree. I'm saying that people are calling Drake a pop star as an insult to his "street cred". Not his skill as a rapper.

Here's a good acid test. Is Flo Rida a pop star?

Yes, and a shit one.

 

[Adzzz]

If I was Drake I would not let my street cred take any hits. No way

 

[GE]

Pusha’s track was absolutely savage. I don’t like his low blow shot at 40 though.

How will Drizzy respond? The internet seem to be unanimous in agreeing Pusha is winning, probably unexpectedly as Drake’s track was pretty damn good and the invoice/meme IG post made Pusha the laughing stock for a few days, it had shades of Meek Milly Gate

 

[adexkola]

Yes, and a shit one.

I think he sounds better in Miami