Club Sale | It’s done!

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I am guessing this news is mostly appealing to our younger international fanbase with the goal of instant gratification and 1-upping other club fans over beerfest. Also people not used to the long draught post Sir Alex coupled with the frustrations under Mou/Ole added with the rise of Klopp's Pool and Pep's City this mad desire to win at any cost and get back to the top has gradually taken over all of us. My first reactions of Qatar were also like, wow this is great. To be fair, these oil clubs have in general been public friendly, invested a lot, improved the community and been much fairer/generous to the fan base than the business leeches from across the pond. There are lot of good in such investments and to reject them outright as Middle East country leans towards ignorance from your extremely stupid crown glorifying entitled British xenophobe. Also, I don't buy that their sole goal is sportwashing, no matter what they do with Newcastle, Khashoggi incident is not something that can be washed away easily and as long as we rely on oil, our governments are never going to go gung-ho on them, in a sense we have already Oil-washed them. Looks like they are mostly expanding their portfolios by purchasing popular sports franchise.

But upon calm reflection, as a hardworking common man, as a human being with a lot of moral values attached to the club and football in general, the money involved is going absolute bonkers to a point where there is a mental dissonance between ground realities and football world. Jling, Pogback, CR7 2nd coming, Phil jones etc., there is a whole lot of undeserving uncaring mercenaries leeching the game. While hardworking normal fans have been shelling out 1000s of our hard earned money on the name of entertainment. There is something really wrong with the direction football is headed in this country. I was happy when the club announced it was planning on curtailing the upper limit on wages, I was hoping it would trigger something similar across all the clubs. They should talk about curtailing player/board member wages across the game. Talks of independent government review on football was also encouraging. Limiting Season ticket prices etc should be on the agenda (I know I am being selfish here). The ME consortium and other mindless spending is only going to worsen this situation. At some point of the time, these games are going to get moved to other places (makes sense because they are owned by people from other places), like playing the supercopa in Saudi will later extrapolate to playing the Super Sundays in Middle East etc. Gradually its headed towards a place where the club identity and roots are getting unrecognizable.
 
Witchking said:
Whatever money we spend is something we earned. We never had a sugar daddy who would buy players and have an unlimited budget. This would tilt the game in United's favour way too much.
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You are assuming that the owners will pump in the money for player transfers. We don't need that and I think the new owners will also realize that as long as the debt is covered and the stadium/training facilities are improved, then we are self-sufficient.

Think the worry about us being one of those sugar daddy clubs are not based on any facts now since the likes of City/Chelsea/PSG had to have money pumped into them to compete as they were such small clubs relatively.
 
All these years of campaigning for the club to be sold - who did you guys think was going to pick up this undertaking? Most actions by Ratcliffe point to him being an attention seeker - and it's not as if he's other club is pulling up any trees

Besides, it's being reported as Qatari private investors, no?

The Ten Hag fears are also largely unfounded. Even ignoring the fact he's spoken on this himself (about getting assurances) - he has the backing of the fanbase and whoever comes in won't just toss him to the bushes and risk protests few weeks in. He won't be dispatched unless we're severely underperforming down the line - which is fair.

"b-b-but we're risking the club - look at City!" - I'm yet to see similar fears levied at potential American or Ratcliffe ownership. Natural gas or oil owners or whatever doesn't mean books will start getting cooked. Also, United isn't starting from the same point City did.
 
iamking said:
I am guessing this news is mostly appealing to our younger international fanbase with the goal of instant gratification and 1-upping other club fans over beerfest. Also people not used to the long draught post Sir Alex coupled with the frustrations under Mou/Ole added with the rise of Klopp's Pool and Pep's City this mad desire to win at any cost and get back to the top has gradually taken over all of us. My first reactions of Qatar were also like, wow this is great. To be fair, these oil clubs have in general been public friendly, invested a lot, improved the community and been much fairer/generous to the fan base than the business leeches from across the pond. There are lot of good in such investments and to reject them outright as Middle East country leans towards ignorance from your extremely stupid crown glorifying entitled British xenophobe. Also, I don't buy that their sole goal is sportwashing, no matter what they do with Newcastle, Khashoggi incident is not something that can be washed away easily and as long as we rely on oil, our governments are never going to go gung-ho on them, in a sense we have already Oil-washed them. Looks like they are mostly expanding their portfolios by purchasing popular sports franchise.

But upon calm reflection, as a hardworking common man, as a human being with a lot of moral values attached to the club and football in general, the money involved is going absolute bonkers to a point where there is a mental dissonance between ground realities and football world. Jling, Pogback, CR7 2nd coming, Phil jones etc., there is a whole lot of undeserving uncaring mercenaries leeching the game. While hardworking normal fans have been shelling out 1000s of our hard earned money on the name of entertainment. There is something really wrong with the direction football is headed in this country. I was happy when the club announced it was planning on curtailing the upper limit on wages, I was hoping it would trigger something similar across all the clubs. They should talk about curtailing player/board member wages across the game. Talks of independent government review on football was also encouraging. Limiting Season ticket prices etc should be on the agenda (I know I am being selfish here). The ME consortium and other mindless spending is only going to worsen this situation. At some point of the time, these games are going to get moved to other places (makes sense because they are owned by people from other places), like playing the supercopa in Saudi will later extrapolate to playing the Super Sundays in Middle East etc. Gradually its headed towards a place where the club identity and roots are getting unrecognizable.
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Wouldn't a ME emir be the better thing if what you want is a good reasonable priced experience m for watching a team you support?

An American or a British billionaire is not going to spend 4-5 bn on utd and then 1-2 bn on a new stadium and big name signings to keep the prices reasonable. They are going to want to maximize the money they make and likes of super league and big hike in ticket prices are more likely under them than under a ME guy who's primary goal would be soft power for which you need the fans to support you.
 
Red Dreams said:
Pretty much.

I grew up loving Manchester United. Not the owners.

Any of these ME owners make me uncomfortable.
But what can we do.

EDIT:
We protested the Glazers because they were hollowing out the club.
If the club is run as a football club and the revenue is reinvested in the club, what is there to protest.
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Pretty much.
 
BlueHaze said:
We get owned by any of them oil states and 7 years from now we'll get dragged down the same mud the city cnuts are in now. Don't trust them for shits. They'll stain the club with their filth. It is a very sad fact that it's looking close to really happening.
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There's no need for an oil state to put United on steroids, though; the club has proven to be robust enough to withstand the Glazers (among the worst owners in the history of professional sports). It is an iconic institution and has consistently boasted some of the highest organic revenues in football for several decades now, even when on-field proved to be elusive — that's precisely why prospective buyers will have to cough up £5-8 billion (whereas the Newcastle United takeover, for example, was completed for roughly £350 million). The new owners just need to do three things, primarily:
  • Put an industry-leading football operation around the manager — from the Director of Football to individual Scouts, Analysts and so forth.
  • Invest in the modernization of on-the-ground infrastructure, a process that is long overdue and will probably cost an extra ~£1.5-2 billion.
  • Have big picture ideas, but let the experts handle the day to day decision-making in the sporting sector (as opposed to micromanaging stuff).
Everything else will take care of itself, for the most part. Don't see a lot of scope for fudging the numbers (like Manchester City, who were artificially propped up by their owners and also given a helping hand with the City of Manchester Stadium).

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against state ownership. The custodians and governing bodies should have been more proactive and done a better job of limiting their effect and promoting fairness in football. Now the genie is out of the bottle in a world where capitalism rules the roost; and valuations in football have gone through the roof, too — only a select group can afford to acquire and maintain a club of United's scale (and most of them have skeletons in their closets, to varying degrees of insidiousness of course). It is what it is.
 
I hope the city debacle deters any states from trying their luck with us but if it had to be them I'd prefer the Qataris.
 
I don't think whoever buys it will be a sugar daddy kinda situation after the City debacle.

Qatar will probably hang back and let us do our thing.

We make enough money anyway to be self sustainable. Except the investment in the stadium and facilities.
 
Suv666 said:
I don't think whoever buys it will be a sugar daddy kinda situation after the City debacle.

Qatar will probably hang back and let us do our thing.

We make enough money anyway to be self sustainable. Except the investment in the stadium and facilities.
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Yeah sounds like these Qatari's want fans involved with decisions about stadium redevelopment IF they actually bid and are successful
 
Nori- said:
No different to Adidas using Asian sweat shops to make the their clothes/boots, Apple using factories where employees are committing suicide because of the work load or Starbucks using unethically sourced palm oil that is displacing tribes in the jungle.

You can't apply one set of morals to companies from the Middle East and another to American companies.
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This! And nothing else ... This outcry of human rights in certain things has been terrible for a few years! Anyone who owns products from Apple, Android, adidas, Nike, etc., or orders them from Amazon, for example, should really question themselves how and where these things are made, the working conditions!
Hypocrisy at it's best!
 
Lennon said:
This! And nothing else ... This outcry of human rights in certain things has been terrible for a few years! Anyone who owns products from Apple, Android, adidas, Nike, etc., or orders them from Amazon, for example, should really question themselves how and where these things are made, the working conditions!
Hypocrisy at it's best!
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Goal posts will be shifted, these are individual Qatari investors but they are already being equated to a state. Doesn't take much to conclude that they are being condemned because of who they are and where they are coming from not on their morality.
 
iamking said:
I am guessing this news is mostly appealing to our younger international fanbase with the goal of instant gratification and 1-upping other club fans over beerfest. Also people not used to the long draught post Sir Alex coupled with the frustrations under Mou/Ole added with the rise of Klopp's Pool and Pep's City this mad desire to win at any cost and get back to the top has gradually taken over all of us. My first reactions of Qatar were also like, wow this is great. To be fair, these oil clubs have in general been public friendly, invested a lot, improved the community and been much fairer/generous to the fan base than the business leeches from across the pond. There are lot of good in such investments and to reject them outright as Middle East country leans towards ignorance from your extremely stupid crown glorifying entitled British xenophobe. Also, I don't buy that their sole goal is sportwashing, no matter what they do with Newcastle, Khashoggi incident is not something that can be washed away easily and as long as we rely on oil, our governments are never going to go gung-ho on them, in a sense we have already Oil-washed them. Looks like they are mostly expanding their portfolios by purchasing popular sports franchise.

But upon calm reflection, as a hardworking common man, as a human being with a lot of moral values attached to the club and football in general, the money involved is going absolute bonkers to a point where there is a mental dissonance between ground realities and football world. Jling, Pogback, CR7 2nd coming, Phil jones etc., there is a whole lot of undeserving uncaring mercenaries leeching the game. While hardworking normal fans have been shelling out 1000s of our hard earned money on the name of entertainment. There is something really wrong with the direction football is headed in this country. I was happy when the club announced it was planning on curtailing the upper limit on wages, I was hoping it would trigger something similar across all the clubs. They should talk about curtailing player/board member wages across the game. Talks of independent government review on football was also encouraging. Limiting Season ticket prices etc should be on the agenda (I know I am being selfish here). The ME consortium and other mindless spending is only going to worsen this situation. At some point of the time, these games are going to get moved to other places (makes sense because they are owned by people from other places), like playing the supercopa in Saudi will later extrapolate to playing the Super Sundays in Middle East etc. Gradually its headed towards a place where the club identity and roots are getting unrecognizable.
Click to expand...

Mate, I stopped judging when Forrest first paid a million quid for Trevor Francis. A little later when when keano asked and got 60k quid/week.

After that you just BOHICA.

Only thing I am asking if for united to be financially sustainable.

Morals is debatable in our cynical world. One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist.
 
Lennon said:
This! And nothing else ... This outcry of human rights in certain things has been terrible for a few years! Anyone who owns products from Apple, Android, adidas, Nike, etc., or orders them from Amazon, for example, should really question themselves how and where these things are made, the working conditions!
Hypocrisy at it's best!
Click to expand...

Yeah cos owning a phone is the same as persecution of gay people.

People who do persecute gays rely on "but if you purchase consumer goods you've no right to criticise" arguments from people like you. It's very useful to them.

I mean slave labour is bad but I bought a coffee from Starbucks last week so I'm no better. Let's all just stay quiet on all human rights abuses unless we live in a mud hut and die from our own teeth at the age of 26 due to not wanting to appear hypocrites by using Colgate fecking toothpaste
 
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Can the talk of morals stop already. You all use products made in sweatshops. You ignore it because the product benefits you personally. Fans of Newcastle and City turn a blind eye to the moral implications of their owners, because it benefits them personally. We'll all continue to support United whoever takes over, because it benefits us.

Everyone in the world is a hypocrite, except for the small minority of people who are prepared to stand up and make a difference at the cost of personal sacrifice. Let's just accept what we are and stop pretending we're moral justice warriors who are above it all. We're not. We'll all be here celebrating our next £100m signing under new owners
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Can the talk of morals stop already. You all use products made in sweatshops. You ignore it because the product benefits you personally. Fans of Newcastle and City turn a blind eye to the moral implications of their owners, because it benefits them personally. We'll all continue to support United whoever takes over, because it benefits us.

Everyone in the world is a hypocrite, except for the small minority of people who are prepared to stand up and make a difference at the cost of personal sacrifice. Let's just accept what we are and stop pretending we're moral justice warriors who are above it all. We're not. We'll all be here celebrating our next £100m signing under new owners
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I definitely see owning a pair of trainers as the moral equivalent to the subjugation of women too. I mean if a witness reports a rape on an Apple phone who is the real criminal?

Moral gymnastics is fun isn't it?
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Can the talk of morals stop already. You all use products made in sweatshops. You ignore it because the product benefits you personally. Fans of Newcastle and City turn a blind eye to the moral implications of their owners, because it benefits them personally. We'll all continue to support United whoever takes over, because it benefits us.

Everyone in the world is a hypocrite, except for the small minority of people who are prepared to stand up and make a difference at the cost of personal sacrifice. Let's just accept what we are and stop pretending we're moral justice warriors who are above it all. We're not. We'll all be here celebrating our next £100m signing under new owners
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This.
 
stw2022 said:
I definitely see owning a pair of trainers as the moral equivalent to the subjugation of women too. I mean if a witness reports a rape on an Apple phone who is the real criminal?

Moral gymnastics is fun isn't it?
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Morality shifts and is relative. That's why it's a pointless discussion.
 
stw2022 said:
I definitely see owning a pair of trainers as the moral equivalent to the subjugation of women too. I mean if a witness reports a rape on an Apple phone who is the real criminal?

Moral gymnastics is fun isn't it?
Click to expand...
We are all hypocrites though. I don't think anybody can deny that.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Not that simple. We are a PLC - the L standing for limited which relates to the liability should the club go bust. The Glazers would not be held responsible for any business losses in excess of the amount they paid for the shares.
Also the debt is secured against the club and its assets, so the Glazers are not personally liable to repay the debt, it’s the clubs responsibility. There is a very real difference between club money and Glazer money, and the clubs money only becomes the Glazers money when they take dividends.
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Yes you are correct of course and thanks for setting it out as you have. Aside from the dividends the, the capital in the business I suppose also belongs to the shareholders as we are about to find out, when they sell and leave with all that money.
 
I'd prefer to avoid a state takeover. But I'd prefer it to a hedge fund
 
Bring on the Qataris.

I want our owners to spend the money we make. Let our owners spend their billions on the stadium, etc, which will allow for a multipurpose stadium. That will significantly increase revenues we make.

They need to bring in the likes of Edwin and Paul Mitchell/Michael Edwards, and get the football operation slick.

Only thing I worry about is not bringing through the youth. I wouldn't want glactico signings to the detriment of our academy players.
 
A bit like Mike Ginn’s human trafficking tweet, the Qataris will walk in day one and be all “My ‘Not involved in state-backed ownership’ t-shirt has people asking a lot of questions already answered by my shirt.”
 
Invictus said:
There's no need for an oil state to put United on steroids, though; the club has proven to be robust enough to withstand the Glazers (among the worst owners in the history of professional sports). It is an iconic institution and has consistently boasted some of the highest organic revenues in football for several decades now, even when on-field proved to be elusive — that's precisely why prospective buyers will have to cough up £5-8 billion (whereas the Newcastle United takeover, for example, was completed for roughly £350 million). The new owners just need to do three things, primarily:
  • Put an industry-leading football operation around the manager — from the Director of Football to individual Scouts, Analysts and so forth.
  • Invest in the modernization of on-the-ground infrastructure, a process that is long overdue and will probably cost an extra ~£1.5-2 billion.
  • Have big picture ideas, but let the experts handle the day to day decision-making in the sporting sector (as opposed to micromanaging stuff).
Everything else will take care of itself, for the most part. Don't see a lot of scope for fudging the numbers (like Manchester City, who were artificially propped up by their owners and also given a helping hand with the City of Manchester Stadium).

Mind you, I'm not arguing for or against state ownership. The custodians and governing bodies should have been more proactive and done a better job of limiting their effect and promoting fairness in football. Now the genie is out of the bottle in a world where capitalism rules the roost; and valuations in football have gone through the roof, too — only a select group can afford to acquire and maintain a club of United's scale (and most of them have skeletons in their closets, to varying degrees of insidiousness of course). It is what it is.
Click to expand...

The 1.5 to 2bn investment that you mention, how does that work with FFP? Isn't investing in training ground facilities and stadium basically the same as pumping money in for transfers? Surely clubs spending is not solely related to transfers fees and wages? If an oil state bought united and built a new stadium from money they put into the club then that would be very unfair on say Spurs and Arsenal for instance, who had to use their own money to build new stadiums instead of using it to invest directly in new players.

Apologies if this question has already been covered.
 
stw2022 said:
True. Gary Glitter fans waiting to buy tickets to his comeback tour then have nothing to feel ashamed of
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a thousand years ago, it wouldn't have been frowned upon as much as today. Even 20 years ago behaviour or comments during a date would be unacceptable nowadays.
As long as the Qataris don't cheat like the City owners then I am ok. We all have skeletons in our closets... glass houses & all.
 
Elcabron said:
The 1.5 to 2bn investment that you mention, how does that work with FFP? Isn't investing in training ground facilities and stadium basically the same as pumping money in for transfers? Surely clubs spending is not solely related to transfers fees and wages? If an oil state bought united and built a new stadium from money they put into the club then that would be very unfair on say Spurs and Arsenal for instance, who had to use their own money to build new stadiums instead of using it to invest directly in new players.

Apologies if this question has already been covered.
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If the news about the Qataris is true, then they will buy us. No-one will be able to outbid them feasibly.
 
I bet the women’s team will be all happy about it. And it’s just one of many things to consider.
Women’s rights in Qatar
Women continued to face discrimination in law and practice. Under the guardianship system, women remained tied to their male guardian, usually their father, brother, grandfather or uncle, or for married women, to their husband. Women continued to need their guardian’s permission for key life decisions to marry, study abroad on government scholarships, work in many government jobs, travel abroad until certain ages, and receive some forms of reproductive healthcare.

Family laws continued to discriminate against women by making it difficult for them to divorce. Divorced women remained unable to act as their children’s guardian.

In March, the government disputed the findings of a Human Rights Watch report on discrimination against women in Qatar, and pledged to investigate and prosecute anyone who had breached the law. By the end of the year, no such investigations had taken place.

Noof al-Maadeed, a 23-year-old Qatari woman who sought asylum in the UK citing family abuse, decided to return to Qatar after seeking reassurances from the authorities. She started documenting her journey on social media but was last heard from on 13 October after she reported threats from her family to the police. Despite reassurances from the authorities that she was safe, her whereabouts remained unknown, raising fears about her safety.
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Witchking said:
Whatever money we spend is something we earned. We never had a sugar daddy who would buy players and have an unlimited budget. This would tilt the game in United's favour way too much.
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But none of that would happen. They wouldn't be buying players, we would, with our genuine income streams.

They would however be buying the debt and the stadium.

The issue isn't them being sugar daddies, but the human rights and sportswashing implications.

That said, nobody will prevent me supporting the club after this many decades, so I'm just going to have to accept it.
 
All this talk about morals are boring. How about trying to discuss which can each owners exclusively bring to benefit the club?
 
Qatar and Beckham would probably be my prefered option. Let them invest heavily in infrastructure and facilities which we know is needed, and then let the clubs own income pay for new players etc.
They would most likely hire football people to run it.
 
What amazing news to wake up to! Oil me up, baby, let's go! :drool: "NO!” to Ratcliffe and any more Americans!
 
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