Club Sale | It’s done!

[phelans shorts]

Ronaldo has pretty much said Carrington is exactly the same as when he left it in 2009. 13+ years without any sort of improvement or modernisation for a club like United is criminal. Read up about what he said about the swimming pool as a prime example.

As for OT, if you've been there, you'll know it needs a massive refurbishing job at the very least!

I don’t give a feck what that prick has to say about anything, because he’s about a reliable a source on anything as any narcissist.

I’ve got a season ticket, I go to stadiums all over the country/continent. Old Trafford is much, much closer to the top of the list of stadiums than the bottom.

 

[Godfather]

The stadium is far from tragic. I can only assume you’ve not been to many others if you think it is.

What exactly needs demolishing at Carrington? Why?

You can't be serious when it comes to OT. Been to the Allianz' arenas in Munich and Vienna and both are on another level when it comes to the facility. I'm not saying a completely new stadium is needed but OT needs a huge refurbishment and has for years.

 

[Mmxxii]

Stadium expansion: £800M
Increase in attendance: 40%
Increase in revenue: £41M
Loan costs over 25 years: £32M+ interests.

A new stadium would pay for itself.

How much interest do you think Utd will incur on a 25-year loan?

I would think at least 7%

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

How much interest do you think Utd will incur on a 25-year loan?

I would think at least 7%

Did you happen to pull that number out of thin air?

 

[Sushi Kagawa]

Stadium expansion: £800M
Increase in attendance: 40%
Increase in revenue: £41M
Loan costs over 25 years: £32M+ interests.

A new stadium would pay for itself.

800mill isn't even close. Renovation would be well over a billion and a full rebuild would be about 2billion according to reports.

 

[phelans shorts]

You can't be serious when it comes to OT. Been to the Allianz' arenas in Munich and Vienna and both are on another level when it comes to the facility. I'm not saying a completely new stadium is needed but OT needs a huge refurbishment and has for years.

So on an incredibly small sample size you’ve decided we need a new stadium?

The Munich Allianz ain’t even a particularly good place to watch football. I’d definitely have it below Old Trafford as a sporting venue.

 

[VP89]

So on an incredibly small sample size you’ve decided we need a new stadium?

The Munich Allianz ain’t even a particularly good place to watch football. I’d definitely have it below Old Trafford as a sporting venue.

I do think our stadium is extremely worn and I'm dire need of renovation or rebuild.

 

[Godfather]

So on an incredibly small sample size you’ve decided we need a new stadium?

The Munich Allianz ain’t even a particularly good place to watch football. I’d definitely have it below Old Trafford as a sporting venue.

Mate actually visiting OT and watching games there was enough to see that. You don't even need to compare it to other stadiums. It's in a dire state.

 

[phelans shorts]

I do think our stadium is extremely worn and I'm dire need of renovation or rebuild.

I’m not saying it doesn’t need any work at all, but it’s not this urgent necessity that it’s being made out to be. There’s far more pressing issues.

Mate actually visiting OT and watching games there was enough to see that. You don't even need to compare it to other stadiums. It's in a dire state.

I go every week, often a couple of times, it’s absolutely not in a dire state. You’d have an aneurysm if you went to the San Siro for instance.

 

[Judas]

We don’t need a new stadium, we probably don’t need a new training ground (I’ve never been so I’ve no idea, just as I’m betting you don’t) so that makes everything a lot easier

We need both of those things.Or at least both need to be massively renovated. You can pretend we don’t if you’d like.

 

[Plant0x84]

Yeah with how much we need I do think so

Thing is, we would be free to compete financially if we weren’t shackled by paying for the pleasure of being owned by the Glazers (debt/dividends). We do a pretty good job currently inspite of that.
I don’t think anybody is going to come in and drop another few billion for a stadium straight away - I’m pretty sure it would be funded by borrowing and sponsorships the way Spurs and Arsenal have - even with oil money.

 

[Godfather]

I’m not saying it doesn’t need any work at all, but it’s not this urgent necessity that it’s being made out to be. There’s far more pressing issues.

I go every week, often a couple of times, it’s absolutely not in a dire state. You’d have an aneurysm if you went to the San Siro for instance.

Which is why they build a new one

 

[Laurencio]

How much interest do you think Utd will incur on a 25-year loan?

I would think at least 7%

Probably a lot lower than that, but even at that interest the increase in revenue covers it.

It is worth noting that there are plenty of places we can borrow money at better rates than that though.

 

[Plant0x84]

We need players to start winning trophies. Facilities after that before we talk about a new stadium.

This is the sensible approach. We would ‘like’ a stadium and training ground refurb, but neither are absolute necessities.

 

[phelans shorts]

Which is why they build a new one

It was in a much worse state 20 years ago than Old Trafford is now. That’s one of the better Italian stadiums too.

There’s far bigger issues.

 

[Zippycup]

This is the sensible approach. We would ‘like’ a stadium and training ground refurb, but neither are absolute necessities.

I think the modern player likes to have the best training facilities available. It could be the difference between a player joining or not.
The few million it would take to upgrade the training ground would be money well spent.

 

[Judas]

This is the sensible approach. We would ‘like’ a stadium and training ground refurb, but neither are absolute necessities.

They’re not top of the to do list, but should be worked on at the same time as improving on field stuff. Hopefully our new owners can multitask

 

[Godfather]

It was in a much worse state 20 years ago than Old Trafford is now. That’s one of the better Italian stadiums too.

There’s far bigger issues.

The last point I agree with. Which doesn't change the notion that it would be nice to have an owner that is happy to invest and I don't see that with Ratcliffe. Not in the places he's been so far at least. Maybe that changes when he decides to buy us for a few billions. Which I still highly doubt.

 

[Woziak]

Not if he offers £3b it won’t. They’re looking for big money and he will offer what he feels United are worth, not what they want.

This is true but he won’t be the only bidder, they will have at least 5 or 6 who pass the financial tests set by the raine group and then some of these bidders will fall away to 2 or 3 serious parties, we’ve heard already that there is an American, Asian and Middle East interest. There may be a joint bid with Qatar investment and Indian with someone like Beckham as the figure head.

The Dubai Sovereign wealth fund are clearly in the running, and you have to assume at least one very credible American investor. We just need to be patient as long as it’s not a partial buyout and all of the glaziers siblings relinquish all shares in the club, it can only be good news as the new owners would have to pay off the debt first and for the first time in 18 years we would be debt free. A leveraged buy out this time is not on the agenda and talk of Ineos being cheap skate owners, I’m not so sure that’s fair either.

Would they be perfect no, are any owners really perfect, PSG and City have the so called perfect owners for over a decade but neither has won a champions league, with all that wealth at their disposal , something the hated Glaziers have done and they also reached the same 2 CL final defeats as well plus that one victory.

We just want our club back, no debt, good stewards who care and love the club put in charge and a wining football team for the men, woman and youth. We don’t want football mercenaries ever again and people in charge like Ed Woodward who failed miserably.

 

[Infra-red]

The Dubai Sovereign wealth fund are clearly in the running

Where/when has this been reported?

 

[Judas]

People need to realize the rich don’t always do their business on the front page of the newspaper. I bet there is so much going on behind the scenes.

 

[Messier1994]

That’s interesting. I would have thought that for the selling club being able to point to X amount of guaranteed income for several years would be helpful given the rolling nature that FFP takes (it does I think?) but I’m no accountant so anything beyond the utter basics when it comes to FFP is beyond me

I am no accountant either, but it shouldn't impact the earnings.

I think it is one of those PE/management consultants' invention. The cost of paying 100m -- after 12 months -- is not 100m. It is perhaps 97m since you can get interest on the 97m for 12 months. The cost of paying 100m after 36 months is perhaps 91m instead of 100m. Some management consultant comes in and say I bet I can save you 5m if you pay me 500k for a months job, and come up with a bunch of stuff like this. An executive of a football club is under pretty much scrutiny. When you negotiate a football transfer, its important that the numbers announced looks good. The nitty gritty terms might not be as important. I bet a buying club has a pretty strong position if it comes to negotiating that a transfer fee should be paid out over x number of years. If we buy players for 150m per year, and manage to get an average pay-out time 12 months down the road, its a little money. Its using all possible small venues to improve the profit that the PE investors do really well. There are many examples of really large groups going from breaking even to making 5-10% profit by only taking small measures.

 

[crossy1686]

Yep. I don't genuinely get people worrying. Our knew owners will be filthy rich. It's as if people don't realise the scale of this opportunity of owning us.

Exactly. For reference, a basket ball team, the Phoenix suns, were sold in December for $4b.

The sale price was 13x their yearly revenue.

We’re going to go for an insane amount.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We need a new stadium, training ground and quality players. Good luck financing that all with our current revenues alone.

Especially is the new owners decide to take a big chunk of the revenue for themselves, the bigger the group of investors, the bigger slice of the pie they will want.

 

[Compton22]

I don’t give a feck what that prick has to say about anything, because he’s about a reliable a source on anything as any narcissist.

I’ve got a season ticket, I go to stadiums all over the country/continent. Old Trafford is much, much closer to the top of the list of stadiums than the bottom.

So a player who actually went to the training ground and independent bodies who are paid to assess the work that needs to be done at OT can't be trusted? They're just saying that it's well behind other comparable facilities in the country for shits and giggles?

 

[phelans shorts]

So a player who actually went to the training ground and independent bodies who are paid to assess the work that needs to be done at OT can't be trusted? They're just saying that it's well behind other comparable facilities in the country for shits and giggles?

What did these independent bodies say exactly? Then I might listen to, a trademark narcissist I won’t give time of day.

 

[Messier1994]

It was in a much worse state 20 years ago than Old Trafford is now. That’s one of the better Italian stadiums too.

There’s far bigger issues.

I think you make a good point, and it is always important to see the whole picture when analyzing a situation.

The narrative is that the club 'must' do this and that. In reality it is a bit more complex. What is abundantly clear is that we are:
(a) Not setting aside any funds to improve the infrastructure.
(b) Not paying off our debt, that is significant, instead its increasing.
(c) We do not have any margins to do the above, we would have to do "a Tottenham" or "a Leicester" to have any chance to spend on the infrastructure
(d) We are a club that benefits greatly from being really big, the others can only compete with our profits if they win the PL/CL while we struggle. But this won't last forever. We are big because we were great. Kids of today don't nearly become United fans to the same extent. If we take 10 years to get the club in order, we would rob Peter to pay Paul, lose commercial incomes from our market position to gain incomes from the infrastructure.

We cannot keep running this club without being able to set aside funds for -- large -- investments in the infrastructure. Even if OT and Carrington could probably be used for another 10 years, there is definitely an underlying problem that is unsustainable. In addition, improving these things will probably be beneficial to do, sooner rather than later.

Lastly, like we are seeing from Chelsea and Manchester City -- it is absolutely crucial to have a youth academy that produces sellable players on a regular basis to compete at the highest level. To get there, it also requires investments that we cannot afford. If you buy kids for 45m every summer, it will pay off. We did it for a while under Solskjaer, but at other times we do nothing becuase we don't have the transfer funds.

 

[Laurencio]

Especially is the new owners decide to take a big chunk of the revenue for themselves, the bigger the group of investors, the bigger slice of the pie they will want.

Thanks to FFP not including infrastructure investments you could theoretically spend more on players by building a new stadium.

Loan the club a sizable percentage of the cost interest free (or at a ridiculously low interest) from the owner company with a long down payment plan. Borrow the rest at sensible interest rates from various sources. That results in an incrimental increase in yearly revenue that in turn increases the room the club has for investment, and opens up opportunities for stand and stadium sponsorships to further increase revenue.

It is worth noting that an oil state could technically build a new stadium without it costing the club a single pound. It would be a silly thing to do but they could.

 

[Roboc7]

800mill isn't even close. Renovation would be well over a billion and a full rebuild would be about 2billion according to reports.

Yeah £800m is nowhere near enough, at least twice that given work required on stadium and training ground.

The Glazers have maxed out their borrowing options. To raise 1.5 billion the Glazers would have to sell off around 30-35 percent of their shares. That means each Glazer giving up a third or close to half of their shares for nothing because it all has to go back into the club.

You’ve still got a huge debt that limits spending and probably a sustained period of lost revenue whilst stadium is renovated/rebuilt to cope with. It’s untenable for Glazers to continue and new owners are going to have to inject a lot of cash or have capacity to borrow lots which isn’t leveraged on the club.

 

[fezzerUTD]

Not a lot compared to other "sugar daddies". And on shit mostly

Why would he spend millions trying to get Nice to be the second best team in France? The ROI will be minuscule, the prize money and tv rights money will be fecking terrible. He isn’t stupid hence why he’s got money in the first place.

He could build a club which gradually gets in the top 3 in France and get in the CL without blowing money allover the place.

 

[cyberman]

Why would he spend millions trying to get Nice to be the second best team in France? The ROI will be minuscule, the prize money and tv rights money will be fecking terrible. He isn’t stupid hence why he’s got money in the first place.

He could build a club which gradually gets in the top 3 in France and get in the CL without blowing money allover the place.

So why would he back anything more than a top 4 spot for United based on this logic

 

[UnitedSofa]

Maybe it depends who had helping to run the club with him.

If I remember correctly he hired his brother.

I’d rather have The Glazers than Sir Jim, everything about his potential buy is giving me nothing but worry

 

[phelans shorts]

So why would he back anything more than a top 4 spot for United based on this logic

Prize money and tv money (as well as general marketing opportunities) at United are in another universe to that at Nice. The ROI is much much greater from us being successful which isn’t the case with Nice.

 

[Telsim]

If I remember correctly he hired his brother.

I’d rather have The Glazers than Sir Jim, everything about his potential buy is giving me nothing but worry

The parasites have to go at all costs, but something about Ratcliffe does rub me the wrong way. The whole "he is a fan, so he will do a better job" angle doesn't fly with me. It's based on nothing but wishful thinking and make believe. Very naive. The man didn't care about poisoning the land and the people to make profit. He will do anything to that end. I don't trust him to run the club competently. Besides, he isn't exactly young. Even if he does run the club well, he could be dead soon. Who knows what kind of corporate scum will inherit the club then? If I have to choose between Glazer and Ratcliffe, I'll go with the latter. But oil money for me is by far the best outcome. At least they have the money to compensate for other shortcomings.

 

[crossy1686]

We need a new stadium, training ground and I want a new stadium, training ground and quality players. Good luck financing that all with our current revenues alone.

Fixed that for you.

What we NEED is just the players.

 

[crossy1686]

Here me out on this wild idea lads, but how about, we don't build a new stadium next season and we focus on squad building, then maybe in a couple of years when we're more competitive we can build a new stadium?

That way we don't have to blow up the budget on day one for no reason.

 

[fezzerUTD]

So why would he back anything more than a top 4 spot for United based on this logic

You can’t build a team for the top 4 in the premier league, there is too much risk of it not happening.

 

[cyberman]

Fixed that for you.

What we NEED is just the players.

Agree. This acceptance of needing a new stadium and training ground as fact is baffling.

 

[Infra-red]

Here me out on this wild idea lads, but how about, we don't build a new stadium next season and we focus on squad building, then maybe in a couple of years when we're more competitive we can build a new stadium?

That way we don't have to blow up the budget on day one for no reason.

This kind of thinking is how you end up with a crumbling stadium and outdated training facilities. The Glazers are only embarking on this process, because they know that they cannot afford to fund the necessary infrastructure spending from the club's own cashflow. They either need to find a partner or accept a full sale.

 

[Godfather]

Guys it's not about getting a new/refurbed stadium next year. Or even start planning it next year. But it will become an issue in the foreseeable future and thus I want owners that actually have the funds or at least the willingness to get this done. Ratcliffe sure has things going for him, his sporting investments are a bit of a failure so far though.