Club Sale | It’s done!

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Cassidy said:
What do you think we would be saying if this happened in the Suadi pro league?
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The exact same thing.
Cassidy said:
Its not logic is reductive
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So you can care about their human rights issues and it's possible that won't impact your relationship with United if they buy them?

I'm sorry I don't understand how that is caring. It's knowing and perhaps not liking but actually caring?
 
moses said:
No, we're discussing United, and if you are behind Qatar and it won't impact your relationship with the club then in this context you don't care about their human rights issues. That's just logic.
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How come if you support a Qatar bid its logic but all the clothes / products you buy from Apple, Nike, Addidas which are manufactured in Asia violating human rights, child labour etccc is fine and ignored?
 
LawCharltonBest said:
If I had it my way, there would be no state ownership in football whatsoever. I wish City and Newcastle's ownership models would both be Abramoviched out tonight. In that scenario, and with consistency, I would be more than happy to wave bye bye to Sheikh Jassim.

But under the current circumstances, unfortunately, IMO there are pitfalls to not getting the Qatari's in now
  • Qatar would get a new face and buy another PL club in the next year or two. Liverpool/Spurs/Arsenal - take your pick
  • The Qatari club would then most likely spend the next decade or two sharing out league titles with city and Newcastle while United just hover around
  • United will probably stay in serious debt, unlikely any major infrastructure would take place in the near future
I am not surprised there is so much support for the Qatari side. It would probably be challenged more I think if Ineos could publically state their intentions. At the moment the media aren't telling us the greatest things about that bid. Ratcliffe's PR has been a level below completely shit. I hope his intentions are better if he gets the club

And just for clarity. I'm no huge supporter of either bid. Neither is one I'd feel greatly comfortable with. I can just see why the Qatar bid has support, same way I can see why the INEOS bid does.
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This is my stance. In the end I support Manchester United and watch football during my free time. I want the club to win trophies again to gain more enjoyment from watching the sport rather than looking at a club so badly run it's infuriating. State ownership clears the debt and will invest in a new stadium. I'm sure all United fans want that. State ownership should have been blocked when the UAE took over Manchester City. Now the Saudis have a Premier League club as well. The FA and potentially the UK government haven't blocked it, even with all the known human rights violations, because everyone loves money. These countries have a resource which gives them unlimited wealth. The UK wants/needs their money. United have no choice but state ownership to compete with the elite clubs in my opinion. You either ride the wave or get left behind. I would much rather it was us than Qatar taking over Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal.
 
Water Melon said:
Indeed. He has horrible human rights and environmental record, whilst being a known liar and hypocrite. In bed with the Saudis where he will build another factory with awful conditions for construction workers.
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There's no doubt Ratcliffe is a piece of work alright. And yet between him and Qatar he's still the lesser of two evils.
 
What have we heard from Sir Jim ? his PR has been none existant, and although im not in favour of any sort of state ownership i'm being forced towards favouring Qatar because they have at least put some plans in place. Sir Jim is a business man and if he is striking a compromise to keep Glazers with the club then he clearly doesnt have the clubs best interests at heart.
There are pros and cons to both, but one thing for sure, its a painful process that just keeps dragging on.
 
romufc said:
How come if you support a Qatar bid its logic but all the clothes / products you buy from Apple, Nike, Addidas which are manufactured in Asia violating human rights, child labour etccc is fine and ignored?
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What are you trying to say?

Who is ignoring Nike?

Try and stay on topic.

Nike has nothing to do with this.
 
moses said:
The exact same thing.


So you can care about their human rights issues and it's possible that won't impact your relationship with United if they buy them?

I'm sorry I don't understand how that is caring. It's knowing and perhaps not liking but actually caring?
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What should we do about our imperial past?

So many thing that we are supposed to be for or against now and we don’t control or benefit from most of it.

Our nation is quite happy to deal with Qatar, so are we all supposed to leave the country.

I don’t have to condone their actions just because they own my football club.
 
moses said:
What are you trying to say?

Who is ignoring Nike?
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Saying supporting United under Qatar ownership means you dont care about Human rights is the same as wearing any piece of clothing from Asia, is the same as not caring from human rights?

Do you do your due diligence to check that the product you own is made by companies not violating any human rights?
 
Josep Dowling said:
This is my stance. In the end I support Manchester United and watch football during my free time. I want the club to win trophies again to gain more enjoyment from watching the sport rather than looking at a club so badly run it's infuriating. State ownership clears the debt and will invest in a new stadium. I'm sure all United fans want that. State ownership should have been blocked when the UAE took over Manchester City. Now the Saudis have a Premier League club as well. The FA and potentially the UK government haven't blocked it, even with all the known human rights violations, because everyone loves money. These countries have a resource which gives them unlimited wealth. The UK wants/needs their money. United have no choice but state ownership to compete with the elite clubs in my opinion. You either ride the wave or get left behind. I would much rather it was us than Qatar taking over Liverpool, Spurs or Arsenal.
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This post sums up my feelings perfectly
 
Raoul said:
I wouldn't read too much into this since the stock price seems to be swinging based on Qatari social media sentiment, as opposed to hard knowledge of a certain outcome.
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Agreed, but it's interesting that abnormal levels of trading continues even after cold water being poured on the speculations.
 
Wonder if there was any truth of the other big rumour of there being a Glazer family meeting
 
Rhyme Animal said:
You think for a 70 year old Utd fan, watching City and Liverpool hoover up PL titles, CL titles and fecking trebles while Utd rot under the Glazers, knowing that there’s a very good chance they’ll genuinely never in their remaining lifetime see Utd win a meaningful trophy it doesn’t hurt because they experienced success in the past!?

Who the feck are you to tell my Grandad what he can or can’t feel about a club he’s given more to than you or I could’ve possibly done? Seriously.

Likewise, who the feck are you (or I) to gatekeep what other fans view as ‘romance’ in football?

If you wanna declare that Utd will hold no emotional connection for you if Jassim takes it over, that’s fine, I don’t look down on you for that or deny you that - that’s what my post was saying, if you actually read it.

But by the same token, don’t be telling other people who have completely different life experiences than you how they must feel.

I’ve got kids in my family who are 10 and all they’ve really known is Glazers at Utd with City and Liverpool dominating, they will feel the exact same romance and glory you and I did if Utd win a PL under Jassim, you can’t decide otherwise for them.

Likewise I’ve got elderly relatives who just want to see Utd wrestle dominance back from City and again, you are certainly not the person to decide what their emotional connection is with the club.

And it’s not about being a fan of Ratcliffe, or Jassim or anything else. Yes, there’s banter in the thread, and lots of silliness, but no one’s a ‘fan’ of Jassim OR Ratcliffe.

There’s passion because people are desperate for the Glazers to GO. To properly fecking go, and if Ratcliffe was offering that and Jassim was offering to keep them here - I fecking assure you almost every single pro Jassim poster would prefer Ratcliffe.
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Well said.
 
JPRouve said:
Are sure about that? The training ground sale had nothing to do with the King and the amount was nowhere near bailing anyone out.
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Council/Govt rather than the King. It was hundreds of millions in the early 2000’s.
 
romufc said:
Saying supporting United under Qatar ownership means you dont care about Human rights is the same as wearing any piece of clothing from Asia, is the same as not caring from human rights?

Do you do your due diligence to check that the product you own is made by companies not violating any human rights?
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Personally yes, I'm a fecking nightmare in that regard.

And it's really hard to survive ethically.

Food and clothes that are ethical are often way beyond the means of lower income folk, so you don't have a choice a lot of the time. So should this mean that your principles are invalidated?

Or that you're a hyprcrite because the toxicity of the owners tarnishes the romance of United. Personally the origins of the club have helped me be OK with the last 30 years of accelerated marketing. So this next erosion of that romance could be too much for me personally.

So I don't know about you but relationship with Manchester United is different to my relationship with a pair of jocks.
 
romufc said:
Saying supporting United under Qatar ownership means you dont care about Human rights is the same as wearing any piece of clothing from Asia, is the same as not caring from human rights?

Do you do your due diligence to check that the product you own is made by companies not violating any human rights?
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Check post 66565 and the responses to it.
 
Anyways, ignoring the shenanigans over the last 18 hours or so, and going back to this (and other similar reports):


We may still get some concrete updates this week.
 
Mockney said:
Yeah, I'm sorry, but this is unhinged man. No one is entitled to win everything, and every club will have thousands of old people who also want to see their club win something before they die.. .most of whom haven't seen them win ANYTHING let alone 3 European cups, countless doubles and a treble in their time! It has nothing to do with anything and it’s hugely distasteful as well.

I might as well say that City/Liverpool/Arsenal etc have a lot of terminally Ill children as fans, and anyone who wants the last thing they see on this earth to be us battering them in the league with our new Qatari investment is a monster! Why can’t we just let them win! Give it a rest
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You’re now being wilfully ignorant (and also needlessly rude to me as a person for some reason). You know full well that my post is in reply to you stating that ‘romance’ is dead in football and specifically, for you at Man Utd. That’s the context of everything I’m replying to.

I’ve not claimed that every old person is ‘entitled to win trophies’ ffs! I’ve not claimed that my Grandad is entitled to win trophies.

I’ve claimed that for my Grandad, seeing Utd dominant again in his lifetime would make him very happy and would hold ‘romance’. He has stated as much.

Toward the end of your post, you’ve for some reason started gibbering about terminally ill children who support Liverpool… overlooking the horrendously bad taste of your ‘analogy’, it essentially proves my point - to some people (be they real old people or fictional ill Liverpool fans) football matters more and will always hold ‘romance’.

I have elderly City relatives as well who are in their 80s and from their perspective, City’s treble holds all the romance you could dream for.

You can’t tell them otherwise, nor can I.

Just as I can’t tell you you’re wrong for feeling a disconnect with Utd.

That was my point mate, never anything else. Now please, either back up a bit and accept that, or do one.
 
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moses said:
What are you trying to say?

Who is ignoring Nike?

Try and stay on topic.

Nike has nothing to do with this.
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He is right. He is asking questions to see if you are a hypocrite or not. Your stance on Qatari ownership is very clear although you have 0 facts showing that it is a state bid and Jassim or 9-2 foundation are personally involved in human rights violations. On the other hand you have agreed that Ineos are a horrific company with documented horrendous working rights and environmental records whilst Ratcliffe himself is a liar, hypocrite building a 2 billion plant in Saudi Arabia. If it is not clear I will ask on behalf of the poster again: is your protesting against human and environmental rights violations selective or not?
 
Water Melon said:
So you agree about Ratcliffe and Ineos. My point is that he is a horrible person who has a majority share in a horrendous company with a poor record of owning football clubs. Not fit

He is right. He is asking questions to see if you are a hypocrite or not. Your stance on Qatari ownership is very clear although you have 0 facts showing that it is a state bid and Jassim or 9-2 foundation are personally involved in human rights violations. On the other hand you have agreed that Ineos are a horrific company with documented horrendous working rights and environmental records whilst Ratcliffe himself is a liar, hypocrite building a 2 billion plant in Saudi Arabia. If it is not clear I will ask on behalf of the poster again is your protesting against human and environmental rights violations selective or not?
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What makes you think it's selective?

Why have so many people got such an emotional interest in other people's principles. Argue against them, grand. But deciding they're not real is weird as feck.


No idea why you are going at me about Ineos.
 
moses said:
Personally yes, I'm a fecking nightmare in that regard.
personally.

So I don't know about you but relationship with Manchester United is different to my relationship with a pair of jocks.
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That's fair. And if we can get a good structure in place we make more than enough to be able to compete right at the top.
 
moses said:
The exact same thing.


So you can care about their human rights issues and it's possible that won't impact your relationship with United if they buy them?

I'm sorry I don't understand how that is caring. It's knowing and perhaps not liking but actually caring?
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Its not the same, there would be more outcry if it happened in a non western country, unfortunately that's how the world is (we live in the west). I'm not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, I'm saying that's how it is.

I care about human rights, I work for a financial firm that has dealings with many other firms and countries that have issues with human rights, because I have a relationship with this company does that mean I don't care about human rights?
Obviously not (to anyone with sense).

Human rights abuses happen all over the place, some are prioritised over others (a point missed by many), some are deemed socially acceptable in the west some are not. Some are deemed socially acceptable outside of the west some are not.

What do you actually mean by caring, maybe you should answer that? For me personally I'd rather not have state ownership (but it actually has nothing to do with human rights) i disagree with it for other reasons. However if it happens fair enough, Glazers out is more important (they are actually stealing from people and stopping development of infrastructure in Manchester).

On a personal level and in my opinion human rights and supporting a football club has no common thread. Whether you support United or not or have an emotional connection to the sport or not will have bear no relevance to the people whos human rights are being violated. Thats my view, others may disagree and that's fine, but that's my personal opinion.

If you care about human rights get up and do something about it, (something that can actually have an impact) saying that, that's not that easy, maybe people find comfort in doing the small thing like not supporting a club, that's fine by me. I wouldn't go and say they don't care though just because they express it differently to me.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
You think for a 70 year old Utd fan, watching City and Liverpool hoover up PL titles, CL titles and fecking trebles while Utd rot under the Glazers, knowing that there’s a very good chance they’ll genuinely never in their remaining lifetime see Utd win a meaningful trophy it doesn’t hurt because they experienced success in the past!?

Who the feck are you to tell my Grandad what he can or can’t feel about a club he’s given more to than you or I could’ve possibly done? Seriously.

Likewise, who the feck are you (or I) to gatekeep what other fans view as ‘romance’ in football?

If you wanna declare that Utd will hold no emotional connection for you if Jassim takes it over, that’s fine, I don’t look down on you for that or deny you that - that’s what my post was saying, if you actually read it.

But by the same token, don’t be telling other people who have completely different life experiences than you how they must feel.

I’ve got kids in my family who are 10 and all they’ve really known is Glazers at Utd with City and Liverpool dominating, they will feel the exact same romance and glory you and I did if Utd win a PL under Jassim, you can’t decide otherwise for them.

Likewise I’ve got elderly relatives who just want to see Utd wrestle dominance back from City and again, you are certainly not the person to decide what their emotional connection is with the club.

And it’s not about being a fan of Ratcliffe, or Jassim or anything else. Yes, there’s banter in the thread, and lots of silliness, but no one’s a ‘fan’ of Jassim OR Ratcliffe.

There’s passion because people are desperate for the Glazers to GO. To properly fecking go, and if Ratcliffe was offering that and Jassim was offering to keep them here - I fecking assure you almost every single pro Jassim poster would prefer Ratcliffe.
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Spot f..cking on.
 
pocco said:
This started out as 'SJR can't afford to buy the club', which is clearly false
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It's not clearly false - it depends entirely what the club is worth. I can afford an Aston Martin if they are going for a tenner.

In this case the value of the club is what a willing buyer is willing to pay. So if the Qataris are willing to pay more than SJR then he can't afford it. You're trying to defend an illogical position. The OP was right and you are wrong - sorry.
 
romufc said:
Saying supporting United under Qatar ownership means you dont care about Human rights is the same as wearing any piece of clothing from Asia, is the same as not caring from human rights?

Do you do your due diligence to check that the product you own is made by companies not violating any human rights?
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Whataboutism gets tiring.

Neither parties are great people clearly, but they aren't both the same.
 
Cassidy said:
Its not the same, there would be more outcry if it happened in a non western country, unfortunately that's how the world is (we live in the west). I'm not saying its a good thing or a bad thing, I'm saying that's how it is.

I care about human rights, I work for a financial firm that has dealings with many other firms and countries that have issues with human rights, because I have a relationship with this company does that mean I don't care about human rights?
Obviously not (to anyone with sense).

Human rights abuses happen all over the place, some are prioritised over others (a point missed by many), some are deemed socially acceptable in the west some are not. Some are deemed socially acceptable outside of the west some are not.

What do you actually mean by caring, maybe you should answer that? For me personally I'd rather not have state ownership (but it actually has nothing to do with human rights) i disagree with it for other reasons. However if it happens fair enough, Glazers out is more important (they are actually stealing from people and stopping development of infrastructure in Manchester).

On a personal level human rights and supporting a football club has no common thread whether you support United or not or have an emotional connection to the sport or not will have bear no relevance to the people whos human rights are being violated. Thats my view, others may disagree and that's fine, but that's my personal opinion.

If you care about human rights get up and do something about it, (something that can actually have an impact) saying that, that's not that easy, maybe people find comfort in doing the small thing like not supporting a club, that's fine by me. I wouldn't go and say they don't care though just because they express it differently to me.
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Not at all. Maybe just my lefty echo chamber but the Kapernik thing took up more column inches than any story from Qatar outside the world cup.


I didn't say anybody doesn't care. I said they don't care of it doesn't impact on their relationship with the club. I believe that.
 
I’m of the belief that romance in football is largely dead. Certainly neither of the two options for ownership feel romantic to me.

Football for me, should be about Busby, Revie, Shankly, Clough, Ferguson and players like Best, Edwards, Charlton, Robson. You get lucky enough to find a great manager and sign/develop great players and you’ve won. There is no Devine right, just great management. The biggest clubs have never continuously dominated football, they have had periods and cycles, then had to rebuild. This is football utopia for me.

The problem for me lies in the fact that the minute Abramovic bought Chelsea, his intention to make Chelsea the best instantly guaranteed them the league and CL in the near future and as such they could immediately sign or compete for the best players and managers in the world. City went from literally a nothing football club to a global superpower overnight. Signing players from Real Madrid, attempting to sign Kaka and over the next three years and more hoovering up players that Manchester United wanted. There’s no romance to waking up one morning on the whim of a sheik but on the flip side is there romance in competing for fourth and the odd cup for the next 20 years?

It’s really really sad, but my saddest day was in 2008 when I heard the news about City and the talk that they were now a global superpower and their owners would and have stopped at nothing to make them the best.

I’m not sure there is a model for romance left in the sport. It’s shit.
 
sparx99 said:
Council/Govt rather than the King. It was hundreds of millions in the early 2000’s.
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Okay, so Real Madrid sold their training ground which was situated in the middle of Madrid, the EU investigated that sale and found no wrong doing. The actual issue that the EU had represented 18.4m€.
 
romufc said:
Saying supporting United under Qatar ownership means you dont care about Human rights is the same as wearing any piece of clothing from Asia, is the same as not caring from human rights?

Do you do your due diligence to check that the product you own is made by companies not violating any human rights?
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Do you?
"Any piece of clothing from Asia"...

I suggest you do your due diligence. Not sure how you can suggest that any item of clothing made in Asia comes at the expense of human rights??
 
Sweet Square said:
.
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Rhyme Animal said:
Wilko ‘basic’ range, painted on by a senile handyman who (vaguely) remembers when you could buy black pudding at Old Trafford for Tupenny bit and agrees wholeheartedly with Ratcliffe’s Brexit stance :drool:

Meanwhile the leaking roof is fixed with budget silicone sealant by ‘club legend’ Chris Eagles after Ratcliffe unveils him as the new caretaker of the stadium - ‘Chris will be here, on hand day and night to convert Old Trafford back into the Theatre of Dreams’.

The Glazers are given ‘infinity contracts’ as senior advisors for all eternity, with their consciousnesses being downloaded upon death into an indestructible AI system so that they can continue to guide Man Utd until the Universe implodes.

And anyone who says they’ve had enough of it is pointed at like in ‘Invasion of the Body Snatchers’ and screeched at - ‘feck off and support City then’.
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moses said:
Personally yes, I'm a fecking nightmare in that regard.

And it's really hard to survive ethically.

Food and clothes that are ethical are often way beyond the means of lower income folk, so you don't have a choice a lot of the time. So should this mean that your principles are invalidated?

Or that you're a hyprcrite because the toxicity of the owners tarnishes the romance of United. Personally the origins of the club have helped me be OK with the last 30 years of accelerated marketing. So this next erosion of that romance could be too much for me personally.

So I don't know about you but relationship with Manchester United is different to my relationship with a pair of jocks.
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I think its too plain and simple saying if you support the Qatar bid, you do not care about human rights... does that mean anyone living in the country or has any associations with them, do not care about human rights?

Also, if you look deeply into any owner who is putting up £5bn, you will see that none of them are clean.
 
moses said:
Not at all. Maybe just my lefty echo chamber but the Kapernik thing took up more column inches than any story from Qatar outside the world cup.


I didn't say anybody doesn't care. I said they don't care of it doesn't impact on their relationship with the club. I believe that.
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This is more than column inches as an example: https://www.business-humanrights.or...for-teams-to-boycott-2022-world-cup-in-qatar/

Anyway its ok you have an opposing view. If a player did something at the Qatar world cup like say support LGBTQ openly and lets say the Qataris decided to ban them from the world up I'm pretty sure it would have resulted in more than column inches (and I'm not suggesting they would have done this by the way)
 
swooshboy said:
Do you?
"Any piece of clothing from Asia"...

I suggest you do your due diligence. Not sure how you can suggest that any item of clothing made in Asia comes at the expense of human rights??
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No I dont actually, I wont lie. I dont have the time to carry out due diligence.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
You think for a 70 year old Utd fan, watching City and Liverpool hoover up PL titles, CL titles and fecking trebles while Utd rot under the Glazers, knowing that there’s a very good chance they’ll genuinely never in their remaining lifetime see Utd win a meaningful trophy it doesn’t hurt because they experienced success in the past!?

Who the feck are you to tell my Grandad what he can or can’t feel about a club he’s given more to than you or I could’ve possibly done? Seriously.

Likewise, who the feck are you (or I) to gatekeep what other fans view as ‘romance’ in football?

If you wanna declare that Utd will hold no emotional connection for you if Jassim takes it over, that’s fine, I don’t look down on you for that or deny you that - that’s what my post was saying, if you actually read it.

But by the same token, don’t be telling other people who have completely different life experiences than you how they must feel.

I’ve got kids in my family who are 10 and all they’ve really known is Glazers at Utd with City and Liverpool dominating, they will feel the exact same romance and glory you and I did if Utd win a PL under Jassim, you can’t decide otherwise for them.

Likewise I’ve got elderly relatives who just want to see Utd wrestle dominance back from City and again, you are certainly not the person to decide what their emotional connection is with the club.

And it’s not about being a fan of Ratcliffe, or Jassim or anything else. Yes, there’s banter in the thread, and lots of silliness, but no one’s a ‘fan’ of Jassim OR Ratcliffe.

There’s passion because people are desperate for the Glazers to GO. To properly fecking go, and if Ratcliffe was offering that and Jassim was offering to keep them here - I fecking assure you almost every single pro Jassim poster would prefer Ratcliffe.
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Brilliant
 
Cassidy said:
This is more than column inches as an example: https://www.business-humanrights.or...for-teams-to-boycott-2022-world-cup-in-qatar/

Anyway its ok you have an opposing view. If a player did something at the Qatar world cup like say support LGBTQ openly and lets say the Qataris decided to ban them from the world up I'm pretty sure it would have resulted in more than column inches (and I'm not suggesting they would have done this by the way)
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I specifically said outside the world cup, for obvious reasons, ie it's the fecking world cup.
 
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