It's like forgiving a girl for cheating and taking her back. If she cheats again you cut her loose and admit you made a mistake forgiving her. INEOS needs to cut EtH loose, no one will blame them.
Club ownership | Senior management team talk
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For the second paragraph, I answered in my final paragraph and I don’t disagree with you on that. Now is different to then.
And for your first paragraph, I do believe it yes. You’d be asking the two key decision makers to sack a manager they haven’t worked with yet, who has just beat city in the cup final fairly comfortably. Say they’d sacked him then and got McKenna or Tuchel and right now we were still midtable. They’d have been slaughtered for it in the media. And don’t underestimate fan fickleness. They also wouldn’t have legally been able to speak to any candidates. Had Newcastle or city got wind of them doing so then they’d have been in the shit
Do best in class football people need to work with the manager before they can make any decisions? This sounds amauter and incompetent to me. Nowadays, there are lots of video, data analysis and whatnot for review.
There are lots of football people appoint manager that way and not have to work with them first. Last season alone finishing 8th should be enough for best in class football people to make decision, injury or not. Mistake is a mistake, let's admit it and correct it.
Maybe they should have. As I said, I would have. But there is a reason new execs come in and usually give the current manager at least 6 months. It’s like sex.. Get in, analyse, plan and then take action.
It’s easy to say that there are videos etc but I think you’d feel differently if in the position. It’s better for everyone if a decision is made once the legs are under the table and they can do their job without restriction
They have to pull the plug immediately. They fecked up the decision in the summer, and they missed the opportunity to get rid of him without any reputational hit, but the longer this drags on the more they're going to be dragged down with him.
Again these sounds more like their incompetency and mistakes from their side. As I keep repeating, they are supposed to be best in class but the way they manage the manager appointment is very amauterish. Now is the time to correct it, period.
@pocco @Yakuza_devils @Insanity and anyone who has a dim view of the hierarchy - genuine question, not being funny here but what did you expect from them? How soon did you think we’d see results? Where should we be now?
I’m not talking about on the pitch because it is an entirely different situation, but given the huge upheaval behind the scenes and the fact that people are settling into their positions still it seems too soon to say nothing has improved.
I’m genuinely curious about this view point because it’s not one I share. Do you really believe this or is it just frustration at the absolute shitefest we witnessed yesterday and last Wednesday?
I’m not talking about on the pitch because it is an entirely different situation, but given the huge upheaval behind the scenes and the fact that people are settling into their positions still it seems too soon to say nothing has improved.
I’m genuinely curious about this view point because it’s not one I share. Do you really believe this or is it just frustration at the absolute shitefest we witnessed yesterday and last Wednesday?
Even though I thought the axe would fall this time next week after the Villa game, part of me was hoping they’d sack him this morning just on pure principle.
If they don’t sack him this time next week during the upcoming international break, the season will have once again been nuked.
If they don’t sack him this time next week during the upcoming international break, the season will have once again been nuked.
There was chat before the season about top 4 not being the target, and building for the future long term instead. I doesn’t feel like what the fans would consider success was ever on the agenda this season, although I doubt they expected it to be as bad as it was yesterday.
You didn't address me, because I don't have a dim view of them per se, but I've also been distinctly whelmed by what I've seen so far, so I'll have a stab at it.
My feeling is that after 10 years of United being shit with numerous false dawns I simply want to be actively convinced of a group, manager or a player. I've got too caught up in the cycles of optimism and pessimism, so for me I've tried to put aside all of the self aggrandising PR and focus on what they've actually done, not what they've said they want to do.
In that respect, I do think there have been some positives. The new stadium plans, the appointment of a senior leadership team for the first time, and some of our transfer business. But in other respects I've been disappointed. The most obvious is the backing of ten Hag, but also the sacking of staff because it's INEOS's playbook to come in and chop 25% and stuff like abolishing WFH and complaining about mess just strike me as petty vindictiveness dressed up as a management philosophy, rather than anything that will actually contribute to our success. The disrespect in all of Ratcliffe's communications of the women's team has also been unfortunate. And I also have to say, regardless of his credentials, it's hugely unfortunate that our new CEO was directly involved with City's, alleged, industrial level cheating. It seems to me a fairly dumb decision to expose yourself to the fall out to that.
All of which brings me to how I feel about them currently which is that, whilst they're better than the Glazers, and significantly better than being a Qatari toy, the bar was so low that it would have been a challenge not to pass it, but I will need to see a lot more from them to be actively convinced they're going to be able to bring success back to us.
Maybe just call it a trauma response that I'm slow to trust when it comes to United.
Surprised to see that this thread is quite slow.
What in the name of feck are they waiting for, us to hit the relegation places? It won’t be long tbf.
What in the name of feck are they waiting for, us to hit the relegation places? It won’t be long tbf.
I think Ineos knew this was coming.
Gave EtH enough rope to hang himself. Can't blame Ineos now.
Now let's just hope they have done a decent homework and not just jump to Tuchel or Waistcoat
Gave EtH enough rope to hang himself. Can't blame Ineos now.
Now let's just hope they have done a decent homework and not just jump to Tuchel or Waistcoat
I've just finished reading the biography of Stan Cullis, the Wolves manager, who was one of the game's deep
thinkers in the postwar period, along with Matt Busby, his close friend.
He emphasises "spirit" as one of the key, indispensable components for a successful elite club, by which he means several things. It includes
teamwork, discipline, full commitment to the club and humility and respect to the fans. He was prepared to take a season or two to ensure
that his squad had the necessary "spirit", with uneven performances and less wins than normal for one of the top group.
It seems that Ineos have identified that as a major problem in the club, but are they prepared to go through the whole process of restoring
the club's spirit, and avoid the magic manager syndrome.
They’ve done a lot of good so far but I don’t like the way they’ve handled the managerial situation at all. Shambolic.
The manager is the defining appointment, overshadowing everything else. It seems they are treading very carefully indeed.
Ten Hag says "we all on the same page"... can I suggest it might be the wrong page or even the wrong book
It's not that I necessarily have a 'dim' view, I just feel like there could be some warning signs. Almost how there were warning signs for practically everything that has gone wrong here, with a bit more scrutiny it is easy to find signs of where it is heading.
Perhaps I'm talking more in anger at the moment, but I can't lie when I say that some of the things INEOS have done have made me take notice. Just some things seem a bit amateurish. I'll give you a list of the things that I have caught my eye, but like I said, I was very pro-INEOS for the takeover and I have no agenda here. They're the guys I wanted, but like I said a long time ago, it's not nailed on that their initial recruits are even the right ones, ie Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth etc. I just hope that they have the foresight to recognise things that aren't working and act accordingly. This, in my opinion, has been the biggest problem with our club.
Some of the things I've not been impressed by, or have made me take notice at least:
1) SJR saying that he doesn't believe that gardening leave is legally enforceable. Now this guy works in business, and from my lay persons view, gardening leave is a well known mechanism in contracts. So how does he not know this? Seemed odd to me that it almost came across as something he'd never heard of before when talking about Dan Ashworth.
2) The leaked emails between Ashworth and Berrada. Amateur hour. And also dispels the idea that they weren't working behind the scenes, as these emails were sent whilst both were still in post at Newcastle and City. So to also now try and claim also that they aren't responsible for any of the changes, or non change at the club (ETH), as they weren't in post, is a bit daft.
3) The firing of staff behind the scenes, particularly taking a stance against WFH. I can't criticise this as I don't know the in's and out's, but again it seems a bit of an archaic approach and isn't a good look.
4) Some of their handling of the women's team. They took a lot of criticism for this.
5) Their whole approach to ETH's future last season. It was widely briefed that he was getting sacked about a week before the final, and I don't think that every journalist woke up one day and decided to make up the same story. I do believe this had been leaked. So to get from there, to seemingly backtracking after a 'review' that dragged on for far too long, seemed like they had no idea what to do. Then there's stories that they were interviewing candidates whilst ETH was still in post, quite publicly. I've never seen this happen before, and again it seems amateurish and disrespectful. To top this off they seemingly fail at the last hour and rush to meet ETH whilst he's on holiday to save the situation. Again, it just looked ridiculous from my point of view. And the end outcome - we seemingly end up with a coach that we have no faith in. Have you ever heard of this before?
6) The fact that they are still willing to let ETH continue now, even after all of the above is taken into consideration. Are they that short of ideas? Have they pissed the money up the wall and can't even afford to sort out the most crucial position in any team - the coach? It just feels like we'll be in a constant cycle of '2 more games' etc, until it is at absolute breaking point. By this time, the next coach has a huge task, again, to lift the team, and ETH's reputation is in tatters. It just lack decisiveness and flies in the face of this idea that they are looking for 'best in class' etc.
They've only been here a short time but already there's a growing list of questionable things. And that is without analysing their approach to buy the club, the mistakes with thinking that they wouldn't have to buy and Class A shares etc. It all just seems like they're winging it right now.
Even INEOS’s worst nightmares couldn’t have imagined this horror start to the season. They gave him a chance this summer, bought players for him, changed most of the coaching staff, and invested a lot behind the scenes to establish a direction for the team this season. It’s difficult to tear that up by October even though now they surely are looking for a way to move on from Ten Hag. I think that going forward they’ll be much more trigger happy when things aren’t working.
You lot bottled it this morning
i don’t really think there’s much wrong. Our fanbase happily slated what was going on behind the scenes pre Ineos, now they’re here and everyone forgotten and thinks it should be fixed?
Add that they have clearly moved towards recruiting players that need a couple of years to develop and you can gamble on all the hot managerial names right now (just as was the case when Ole, Mou, LVG, Moyes left) or they can get everything sorted behind the scenes and then find a manager once everything is ready. It seems obvious they are doing the latter.
The positive until last game was we were generally playing better than the opposition or, with regards to Brighton and Pool, being competitive enough to get a point or win (which sadly is the level we now are aiming for I.e. top four where we should be beating the bottom 14 or so and then being competitive with the rest).
And you've not even mentioned the complete mess that INEOS made of Team Sky in road cycling.
Very fair to be sceptical.
I expected them to be more decisive on two things:
- #1 the managerial decision after the season we were having.
- #2 I didn't want them to acquiesce to ETH's demands and fill the squad with more Dutch/mediocre players.
Results are secondary in the scheme of things. I think they needed a fresh managerial appointment to start their regime. By first dithering with the "review" and then ultimately giving ETH the vote of confidence they have backed themselves into the corner and are up for criticism whatever decision they make now.
I didn't say nothing has improved. I merely pointed out the missteps that they have made, imo. They did some good work in getting the people they wanted in, they recruited (although I may not agree with all the signings) without dragging things on too much and they did a good job on the outgoings. However, they did handcuff themselves by giving ETH and Bruno extensions when both should have been let go in the summer. Now we are in the situation that anyone who isn't wearing red tinted specs expected us to be in. They basically decided to write-off another season when they made those decisions.
Mistakes were made, but it's not too late. It is up to them to accept it and try rectify the situation. We are only 6 games in the league and have all to play for in the cup competitions. Instead of waiting for ETH to dig a bigger hole for them, they should put an end to this now and try to fill the hole.
All their talk of standards is nothing but noise when they don’t have the bottle to make a decisive decision.
So much for the vaunted "ruthlessness". Unless you are a rank and file employee, that is.
Of course people will blame them, if they sack him now the narrative will be ‘incompetent idiots should have sacked him after the FA Cup’. INEOS aren’t going to look good coming out of this unless EtH somehow has a miraculous recovery.
Exactly. They're going for the easy wins and avoiding any big decisions here so far. Their handling of the whole thing has been shambolic. Anybody that disagrees needs to ask themselves, if this were Liverpool or Chelsea, would you not be absolutely loving the mess they're making of such a critical decision? And it's not even a decision anymore, it just needs to be done.
INEOS need to take the Begbie approach. “Some wee cnut has run this footba’ club intae the ground and nae cnut is leaving here until we find out what cnut did it.”
Sacking the manager may need to be done soon either way. But I worry that the higher ups team haven't been around long enough for them to feel confident in putting their foot down with a new manager on how our long term vision and strategy is implemented. I worry about a bunch of our new players becoming the new deadwood, e.g. the same cycle we've been in for years, and the manager wanting to replace too many of them with his own signings. The higher ups really need to be confident and clear on their long term strategy, sign a manager who fits our vision of how we want to play, and have the balls to say no to a manager who wants to make transfer moves that don't align with what we're trying to do.
On a side note, it would be great for the fans if we could see what this vision and strategy is in less vague terms than usual. Something that can be measured and assessed, like "we recognise that we need more leadership in the team so in the next two transfer windows we will prioritise signing players with good leadership calibre and will also start a weekly training course for our academy" or "over the next five years we will phase out counter attacking football by signing players suited to an approach that looks to dominate possession in at least 80% of matches". Idk, maybe I just like numbers and knowing the thought process that's going on behind our decisions but it probably isn't possible for a variety of reasons.
On a side note, it would be great for the fans if we could see what this vision and strategy is in less vague terms than usual. Something that can be measured and assessed, like "we recognise that we need more leadership in the team so in the next two transfer windows we will prioritise signing players with good leadership calibre and will also start a weekly training course for our academy" or "over the next five years we will phase out counter attacking football by signing players suited to an approach that looks to dominate possession in at least 80% of matches". Idk, maybe I just like numbers and knowing the thought process that's going on behind our decisions but it probably isn't possible for a variety of reasons.
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That perception is inevitable whether they sack him now or at the end of the season. Doing it now would at least signal that they learn quickly from their mistakes.
Good Post
But all I see is our spirit getting Gutted 3-0 week in-week out at home.
We look weak ..When I see Newcastle players busting a gut other day makes me sad that our players don't even have half the commitment
I will try to make this post short as other posters had responded to you with very good points.
These are the words SJR briefed the media when they take over:
"Sir Jim Ratcliffe insists Manchester United's new power brokers will settle on a style of play that the coach will have to execute as part of a three-year plan.
United's form under manager Erik ten Hag has improved of late, with five successive wins, yet they remain reliant on counter-attacks and have failed to master the controlling style Ten Hag was appointed to implement.
In a briefing with journalists at the Ineos office in Knightsbridge, Ratcliffe suggested Ineos sporting director Sir Dave Brailsford, incoming chief executive Omar Berrada and potential sporting director Dan Ashworth would agree on a specific style that any United coach would be expected to embrace"
I am not expecting instant results but there must be signs that we are improving or implementing the new "Ineos style of play". In fact we are worse after spending another 200M.
Whether you want to admit it or not, it's safe to say that we are still playing ETH's style of play rather than the Ineos style as SJR promised to implement. There is no change at all in style of play from last season, in fact we are getting worse. SJR and team promised attacking football but half the fans fell asleep watching our game.
In other words, they have failed in the most important appointment at the club which is the manager and they have failed in the most important aspect of the club which is to entertain the fans on the pitch (with proper style of play). These 2 are the core objectives when they take over.
They need to act fast to correct these mistakes and lead the team back on the right path. They are supposed to be the best in class to steer us proactively to the right direction instead of wasting another season. Implement your style of play now!
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They deserve that criticism though. I was one of the few who was saying that logic and sense should have been used rather than the emotion of winning a cup against a City side that didn't bother to turn up. He should have been sacked, LVG was sacked for losing out on goal difference for top 4. Deservedly so, as the results and performances were dire. ETH somehow get's another chance because they bottled the task of selling their "project" to Tuchel.
I didn’t understand blind-backing anything to do with this institution or believing INEOS were some Moses-esque figure that would lead us into the light - show and prove should always be the case.
Was not going to comment on them, instead waiting and observing how they operate and giving them time to make their impression.
At the moment they look like incompetent people who are flailing around in the deep-end before knowing how to swim. They’re tanking morale and if they keep this up, are going to tank the season.
They were supposed to be the real deal: decisive, exacting, composed and most importantly of all, competent.
Nothing about how they have handled the last few months screams best in class, and now with the biggest decision of their tenure, they are making themselves look weak and amateurish.
Can we do nothing right as an institution?
Was not going to comment on them, instead waiting and observing how they operate and giving them time to make their impression.
At the moment they look like incompetent people who are flailing around in the deep-end before knowing how to swim. They’re tanking morale and if they keep this up, are going to tank the season.
They were supposed to be the real deal: decisive, exacting, composed and most importantly of all, competent.
Nothing about how they have handled the last few months screams best in class, and now with the biggest decision of their tenure, they are making themselves look weak and amateurish.
Can we do nothing right as an institution?
This.
Football is pretty simple, you don't watch a game like yesterday and conclude that yeah we need six months to decide. When Ten Hag gets it wrong it's really bad and he doesn't even have the skill to make his team rally and recover. He just accepts the bad result and move on because he is not being held to account.
This is what they should have done if they were a serious football operations outfit but for now look like indecisive clowns. Yesterday showed us that the team looked unprepared and unfocused and his response in 40 minutes of utter domination by a struggling Spurs was to just watch, no tactical changes or subs just watching as were being humiliated.
Yeah they proving to be indecisive incompetent clowns.
‘Beloved’ press officer? Really? Does any other club have a ‘beloved’ press officer?
What a pathetic way to report this story that is. Feeding into the INEOS are evil ABU narrative.
Thought they did well in transfer window, however giving Erik another week rather than putting Ruud in caretaker charge to buy themselves time is a shocker
I have no idea who ‘beloved comms officer’ John Allen is or this ‘beloved kit man’ who isn’t Albert Morgan.
I thought our comms officer was a bald guy in glasses and before him that Karen Shotbolt whatever.
And why is a comms officer in training gear? That’s like having an accountant work in a hazmat suit.
I thought our comms officer was a bald guy in glasses and before him that Karen Shotbolt whatever.
And why is a comms officer in training gear? That’s like having an accountant work in a hazmat suit.
I'm now thinking the only reason he hasn't gone is down to the egos of the idiots that didn't replace him in the summer. Sacking him so soon after would just hammer home what an incompetent decision they'd made.
Yeah they are scared to admit we fecked up