Club ownership | Senior management team talk

All it takes is a bad managerial appointment after Pep and things go pear shaped

That and they'll need to get their next batch of signings right too. De Bruyne is 33, Walker 34, Gundogan 33. Players like Stones, Grealish (next week), Ederson, Silva, Kovacic... are the wrong side of 30, Akanji, Ake 29.
That's a lot of replacing in the next years and without Pep I'm not so sure they will be dominating as they have last couple of years.

And they might get relegated of course :lol:
 
Any appointment post Pep, will be a downgrade as he's just levels above everyone else. We have to be ready to take advantage.

City will likely not disappear for a long time, but we can and should be battling them for trophies and not have this farmers league scenario currently taking place.

It's not just us though. No-one else is near them really. Maybe Arsenal and maybe Liverpool but let's see.

The standards they are setting are ridiculous though. They are often hitting 90+ points, whereas we can't even get a + on our goal difference.
 
You wrote a single line on a post I spent half an hour to write. But I will summarize in short, our pre-season was far from ideal, so is our injury situation and there were continental tournaments both in Europe and in South America. No other team has nearly been disadvantaged as much so far (Arsenal is an outlier but their problems lay ahead for the NLD which has not been played yet).

You can call it excuses, realistically speaking the situation is really difficult to handle. To answer your question, I am not searching for excuses at all. Let's just not pretend we have the squad depth to ignore it, just see which players sat on our bench during the last few games. Yet, we played excellently well against City and Fulham. I do not see which attainable coach would have done better. If there was any, I would give you the name and advocate for a switch.

You’ve written a lot but not actually answered the question

What’s your breaking point as an advocate?

Just checked some translations and I will try to rephrase to make sure I understand your question correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong:

What’s your breaking point as an advocate? -> "what's the weakness of your argument" -> "After what event that would make you change your mind" or "when would you stop backing ETH respectively INEOS regarding ETH?"

I would like to make it clear that there exist of course be many factors that would justify a change of opinion. In order not to go beyond the scope of this discussion, I will limit the answer to the sporting level and ignore off-pitch factors. An exception, or gray area, would be if the players publicly oppose the coach.

The main criterion is that our game continues to develop. Results play an important role in this, but the evaluation of individual games must be put into perspective. Yes, it's always tragic to lose to Livepool, but it was just as satisfying to win the FA Cup final against Man City. A valuation horizon of several weeks/months appears to be a more suitable benchmark.

In my opinion, and I've emphasized this several times in past discussions, our system of play is based on a strong back four and a responsive counter-attack. Whether the system is the right one to bring our club back to the top I leave open, but I would have to be convinced of the opposite.

So, to get to the point, I would set the line like this:

If we don't look better with De Ligt/Yoro as strong central defenders alongside Martinez than with Evans, Lindelof or Maguire, then a change would be appropriate.

If our full-back pairings with the addition of Mazraoui (and hopefully soon Amass) can't cushion the regular absences of Luke Shaw, then a switch would be in order.

If our counter pressing efforts can be improved by the availability of Ugarte, Mount and Amad to complement Bruno in place of the insufficiently fit Casemiro or Eriksen, then a change of coach would be needed.

If we ever lose 7-0 to Liverpool again, then we need to sack our coach on the spot.

What I'm trying to say is that, based on these four factors I've selected, we can evaluate the game's progress and correlate it directly with the style of our coach. I'm optimistic that we'll soon have the opportunity to see ETH's game idea in realized form - with a more suitable squad than in the first season, with fewer emergency line-ups than last season. If we do not see any progress, say by the end of December, even though the conditions have objectively been met, then I would be forced to consider the project a failure. I don't know how you would rate the last 4 games. We lost 3 out of 4, which is very unfortunate. In my opinion, we played much more decisively overall and, above all, we concentrated on our game concept again after the embarrassing last season. I also know that we are far from being "above average" or "outstanding". The important thing is that we are continually improving.

ETH can't do much about that, but we have at least given up a lot of injury-prone, limited or too old players. At the same time, we have brought in young and hungry talent. This is a huge change, and I think his quality as a coach is also evident in how he can work with these new personalities - but it is still too early to express praise or criticism. We have improved our salary structure in a financially demanding climate. Lower costs, a younger team, higher potential and hopefully more tactical flexibility to implement our game three times a week. Ineos has done an excellent job and has undoubtedly increased the value of the squad.

I don't expect it to be perfect this season, but I demand an improvement in line with the progress I have listed that we have made in the squad composition. If the season goes normally in terms of squad availability, then ETH must clearly deliver this improvement. That is how he should be judged.
 
All it takes is a bad managerial appointment after Pep and things go pear shaped

We all said the same thing after Klopp retire and look how Slot take over with ease (I know just 3 games). Maybe just maybe, Liverpool is much better run club than us? City is even further ahead.
 
We all said the same thing after Klopp retire and look how Slot take over with ease (I know just 3 games). Maybe just maybe, Liverpool is much better run club than us? City is even further ahead.

No one is saying they're going to fall apart, but the peak will be lower.
 
Just checked some translations and I will try to rephrase to make sure I understand your question correctly. Please correct me if I am wrong:

What’s your breaking point as an advocate? -> "what's the weakness of your argument" -> "After what event that would make you change your mind" or "when would you stop backing ETH respectively INEOS regarding ETH?"

I would like to make it clear that there exist of course be many factors that would justify a change of opinion. In order not to go beyond the scope of this discussion, I will limit the answer to the sporting level and ignore off-pitch factors. An exception, or gray area, would be if the players publicly oppose the coach.

The main criterion is that our game continues to develop. Results play an important role in this, but the evaluation of individual games must be put into perspective. Yes, it's always tragic to lose to Livepool, but it was just as satisfying to win the FA Cup final against Man City. A valuation horizon of several weeks/months appears to be a more suitable benchmark.

In my opinion, and I've emphasized this several times in past discussions, our system of play is based on a strong back four and a responsive counter-attack. Whether the system is the right one to bring our club back to the top I leave open, but I would have to be convinced of the opposite.

So, to get to the point, I would set the line like this:

If we don't look better with De Ligt/Yoro as strong central defenders alongside Martinez than with Evans, Lindelof or Maguire, then a change would be appropriate.

If our full-back pairings with the addition of Mazraoui (and hopefully soon Amass) can't cushion the regular absences of Luke Shaw, then a switch would be in order.

If our counter pressing efforts can be improved by the availability of Ugarte, Mount and Amad to complement Bruno in place of the insufficiently fit Casemiro or Eriksen, then a change of coach would be needed.

If we ever lose 7-0 to Liverpool again, then we need to sack our coach on the spot.

What I'm trying to say is that, based on these four factors I've selected, we can evaluate the game's progress and correlate it directly with the style of our coach. I'm optimistic that we'll soon have the opportunity to see ETH's game idea in realized form - with a more suitable squad than in the first season, with fewer emergency line-ups than last season. If we do not see any progress, say by the end of December, even though the conditions have objectively been met, then I would be forced to consider the project a failure. I don't know how you would rate the last 4 games. We lost 3 out of 4, which is very unfortunate. In my opinion, we played much more decisively overall and, above all, we concentrated on our game concept again after the embarrassing last season. I also know that we are far from being "above average" or "outstanding". The important thing is that we are continually improving.

ETH can't do much about that, but we have at least given up a lot of injury-prone, limited or too old players. At the same time, we have brought in young and hungry talent. This is a huge change, and I think his quality as a coach is also evident in how he can work with these new personalities - but it is still too early to express praise or criticism. We have improved our salary structure in a financially demanding climate. Lower costs, a younger team, higher potential and hopefully more tactical flexibility to implement our game three times a week. Ineos has done an excellent job and has undoubtedly increased the value of the squad.

I don't expect it to be perfect this season, but I demand an improvement in line with the progress I have listed that we have made in the squad composition. If the season goes normally in terms of squad availability, then ETH must clearly deliver this improvement. That is how he should be judged.
Apologies, I didn’t realize that you were a non native and would need to translate my question.

You are right, in simple terms it would be ‘what would make you change your mind from being supportive of ETH to believing he should be replaced?’

I agree with most of what you have said. I always said that is give it 10 games, so December seems fair.

But I must admit he’s not making it easy to believe in his methods / his system.

I think INEOS have done an excellent job in replenishing the squad (still a little work to do), they’ve added new support and new coaches. All the tools he needs to do his job.

If he can’t show significant progression from last season then he should go
 
The clubs finances are still a mess, this needs to be dealt with before we start spending on a new stadium.

If we keep making losses like this we are going to be facing sactions including point deductions.

 
The clubs finances are still a mess, this needs to be dealt with before we start spending on a new stadium.

If we keep making losses like this we are going to be facing sactions including point deductions.


Still in compliance though. I trust INEOS to stop the bleeding before it becomes a PSR problem.
 
The clubs finances are still a mess, this needs to be dealt with before we start spending on a new stadium.

If we keep making losses like this we are going to be facing sactions including point deductions.


Our projected EBITDA for next year is roughly in line with this year's figures which makes no sense as we've supposedly cut down our wage bill by a lot. Shows how wrong that swedish rumble guy was with his projected figures for next year.
 
The clubs finances are still a mess, this needs to be dealt with before we start spending on a new stadium.

If we keep making losses like this we are going to be facing sactions including point deductions.


Wow I knew things were bad but that's worse than I thought. No wonder Ratcliffe is cutting costs.
 
Apologies, I didn’t realize that you were a non native and would need to translate my question.

You are right, in simple terms it would be ‘what would make you change your mind from being supportive of ETH to believing he should be replaced?’

I agree with most of what you have said. I always said that is give it 10 games, so December seems fair.

But I must admit he’s not making it easy to believe in his methods / his system.

I think INEOS have done an excellent job in replenishing the squad (still a little work to do), they’ve added new support and new coaches. All the tools he needs to do his job.

If he can’t show significant progression from last season then he should go

Do not worry, it's me hanging around in an English speaking forum. Thank you for clarifying, elaborating. I try my best, but sometimes I misunderstand even simple idioms.

Regarding the amount of games, 10 is a generous shout. For me it might be shorter if we happen to have a proper line-up to field. Without being a coach myself, I would suggest any combination of (GK - 4231):

RV and LV: Dalot/Mazraoui/Shaw
CD: De Ligt/Yoro + Licha
CM: Any combination of 3 between Ugarte, Mainoo, Bruno or Mount
Striker: either Hojlung or Zirkzee
Onana in goal and any two wide-forwards that press (controversial, but even Anthony's profile fits the bill)

This set of combinations have never even remotely been played simultaneously and corresponds to what I understand ETH is trying to do. High defensive line, proper build-up play, aggressive press and pacey attackers. With the outgoings of AWB and McSauce, we got rid of 2 players inept to play the before-mentioned tactics. Having some margin to replace Shaw and not to rely on Maguire/Lindelof/Evans further makes me mildly optimistic. In that regard, the transfer team really delivered even though we could not yet see any impact this young season.

I agree with you, his handwriting has not been visible throughout the last 2 years and it rightly infuriates a lot of our fans. I have to admit that I am assuming a tactical plan - and that I might be completely wrong. If "this" or "whatever else ETH is planing to do" fails, he should go asap. (I do not know with whom to replace him, but that's a problem for the future). Also, I would set the bar to a much improved performance compared to last season assuming we won't break new injury-list records. After all, we spent all summer to add players to have more squad depths for his system. Our grim financial result also provides evidence of why we could not transform even more this summer.

Honestly, I do not think we are close to ready to play for the title this year. However, this set-up should rather comfortably get us into Top4 and I won't the first results we had lower expectations. Spurs/Chelsea/Villa/NUFC/Brighton/West Ham should not be above us in the table and I have not seen anything groundbreaking from Slot so far suggesting he would continue to keep Liverpool on Klopp's standard.

Last but not least, I agree again. Our most significant improvement have been achieved on Management and Co-trainer level. This recent rumours of signing PSG's sponsor guy are another promising potencial addition.
 
Our projected EBITDA for next year is roughly in line with this year's figures which makes no sense as we've supposedly cut down our wage bill by a lot. Shows how wrong that swedish rumble guy was with his projected figures for next year.
it's a pretty thankless task projecting future key figures for a club like ours. For instance, the net loss figure of 113m quote above is impacted not significantly by adverse exchange rate movements that helped bump up finance costs by about 190% in FE 2024. Impossible to predict these movements and while not material cash wise they do help make for a stark headline. The 3 other big items that contributed to the jump in the net loss figure are increases in salaries(33m), amortization(17m), and exceptional expenses (47m) during 2024. You could say SJR contributed to the loss figure, as the bulk of of those one-time exceptional expenses relate to his ownership.

Salaries will drop in 2025- no CL and 250+ redundancy- But it's nigh on impossible to get a handle on it given the high profile player departures, etc. We'll have to wait for q1 2025 for that.
The club is predicting a small increase (about 10m) in EBITDA in 2025 on flat revenues. An anticipated 30M increase in Retail revenue is offset by a 30m drop in Broadcasting as a result of no CL and while revenue neutral it's probably a net negative for EBITDA as Broadcasting is more profitable than Retail. So, on that basis, you could expect a modest drop in salaries.
 
The clubs finances are still a mess, this needs to be dealt with before we start spending on a new stadium.

If we keep making losses like this we are going to be facing sactions including point deductions.


Half the net loss was the fees so the leeches could see who might buy their sinking ship.

Absolute frauds, the glazers haven’t a clue what they are doing. Got away with it for years, pissing away our financial advantage.
 
I like what Ineos have done, the Ten Hag error notwithstanding, but real progress will be shown in how they deal with the three big but toxic contracts - Rashford, Casemiro and Sancho (partially dealt with) that are bleeding the club of circa £50m but bringing in zero.
 
It’s amazing what can be accomplished in such a relatively short period of time. Really damning on the Glazers and how they ran things.

This whole new structure removes the burden we’ve endured the past decade that everything revolves around someone in a Sir Alex Ferguson shaped hole that no-one can fill because a) he’s arguably the GOAT manager and b) no-one is equipped to do that antequated role anyway.

The manager will be a first team head coach just like most other clubs, and the cult of manager will die.
 
I like what Ineos have done, the Ten Hag error notwithstanding, but real progress will be shown in how they deal with the three big but toxic contracts - Rashford, Casemiro and Sancho (partially dealt with) that are bleeding the club of circa £50m but bringing in zero.
Barring Chelsea finishing lower than 13th Sancho is dealt with.
 
I like what Ineos have done, the Ten Hag error notwithstanding, but real progress will be shown in how they deal with the three big but toxic contracts - Rashford, Casemiro and Sancho (partially dealt with) that are bleeding the club of circa £50m but bringing in zero.
I’m sure Rashford brings in plenty. He is amongst if not our most marketable playing asset, especially with his off field causes too.
I can also imagine Casemiro has opened up further interest in Brazil that might not have been there with other Brazilian players we have had.
 
I’m sure Rashford brings in plenty. He is amongst if not our most marketable playing asset, especially with his off field causes too.
I can also imagine Casemiro has opened up further interest in Brazil that might not have been there with other Brazilian players we have had.
You know what we want, does Rashford bring enough to cover the lack of CL hole in our finances? This is what we need to consider because at the end of the day success on the pitch is more lucrative for us than one popular player.
 
United will always remain to be the top dog and the cash cow.
Even in our worst, we still pulled the highest numbers.

We just need to solve on field issues and the club will explode

 
United will always remain to be the top dog and the cash cow.
Even in our worst, we still pulled the highest numbers.

We just need to solve on field issues and the club will explode

 
United will always remain to be the top dog and the cash cow.
Even in our worst, we still pulled the highest numbers.

That's always been the case in my lifetime. In the 2nd Division, our gates were higher than all 1st Division clubs. We averaged 47,000 plus for home games. though Stretty News puts that at 48,000. We would pack away grounds and when United rolled into town, it was a bumper pay-day for the home sides.
 
I think Ineos Team must have realized by now that it's time to make amend to their major mistake. We thought that with the "best in class" people in charge they see something in ETH that we don't. This is worrying especially Liverpool just replaced their all time best manager with ease. Liverpool football structure and people are much better than ours?

It was crazy for Ineos Team to interview managers around Europe and took more than one month to go back to tell ETH they want to keep him. No major club should do this, this is very amateurish.

Ineos Team have done a lot of good for the club but let's be honest they cocked up the most important appointment of the club and they need to be brave to rectify it now rather than later. We could still save the season. Our football under ETH is unbearable.
 
I think Ineos Team must have realized by now that it's time to make amend to their major mistake. We thought that with the "best in class" people in charge they see something in ETH that we don't. This is worrying especially Liverpool just replaced their all time best manager with ease. Liverpool football structure and people are much better than ours?

It was crazy for Ineos Team to interview managers around Europe and took more than one month to go back to tell ETH they want to keep him. No major club should do this, this is very amateurish.
You're judging Liverpools replacement of Klopp after a handful of games which is silly. EtH looked like a big success months into his time as manager.

It's not amateurish to want a better manager but decide it's safer with the current one when your preffered options aren't available. Sacking him and then looking or not looking at all would be amateurish.
 
You're judging Liverpools replacement of Klopp after a handful of games which is silly. EtH looked like a big success months into his time as manager.

It's not amateurish to want a better manager but decide it's safer with the current one when your preffered options aren't available. Sacking him and then looking or not looking at all would be amateurish.

Did ETH ever looked a big success? We have to agree to disagree here.

Looking for a new manager or keeping one need to be more decisive. It was wrong to let the entire world knows and takes more than one month. Anyway, that was history.

Hope they can act decisively in the future and soon!
 
Did ETH ever looked a big success? We have to agree to disagree here.

Looking for a new manager or keeping one need to be more decisive. It was wrong to let the entire world knows and takes more than one month. Anyway, that was history.

Hope they can act decisively in the future and soon!
When he got rid of Ronaldo, we went on a winning run and won the league cup, he was being praised by the vast majority of people.

I don't see the problem with looking.
 
Did ETH ever looked a big success? We have to agree to disagree here.

Looking for a new manager or keeping one need to be more decisive. It was wrong to let the entire world knows and takes more than one month. Anyway, that was history.

Hope they can act decisively in the future and soon!

He started off well at United after the first two games. We ran out of steam by January and have never got back to that form since then.

New Manager syndrome basically.
 
When he got rid of Ronaldo, we went on a winning run and won the league cup, he was being praised by the vast majority of people.

I don't see the problem with looking.
In my humble opinion, we looked amazing for 25mins in 1 game early on but never again.
 
I think Ineos Team must have realized by now that it's time to make amend to their major mistake. We thought that with the "best in class" people in charge they see something in ETH that we don't. This is worrying especially Liverpool just replaced their all time best manager with ease. Liverpool football structure and people are much better than ours?

It was crazy for Ineos Team to interview managers around Europe and took more than one month to go back to tell ETH they want to keep him. No major club should do this, this is very amateurish.

Ineos Team have done a lot of good for the club but let's be honest they cocked up the most important appointment of the club and they need to be brave to rectify it now rather than later. We could still save the season. Our football under ETH is unbearable.
You don’t realize the masterstroke on how we threw the game against Liverpool and its domino effect?

Now it creates the notion that Liverpool has replaced their best manager with ease. They will herald Slot and think Klopp is just another manager, not the mastermind he was hyped up to be.

Klopp will be pissed to see the Anfield crowd not putting him up as God anymore. He will return to club’s football with a point to prove, that he’s the GOAT. Which would be a better club to prove that point than the nemesis of Liverpool? :cool:
 
When he got rid of Ronaldo, we went on a winning run and won the league cup, he was being praised by the vast majority of people.

I don't see the problem with looking.
Yup. We were definitely good between October 2022 and February 2023, specifically that one month after the World Cup which culminated in us beating City 2-1 at home.
 
Yup. We were definitely good between October 2022 and February 2023, specifically that one month after the World Cup which culminated in us beating City 2-1 at home.
That's the period I'm talking about. Obviously in hindsight, that was as good as it got so some people will insist that they could tell it was all some illusion but EtH was being praised by fans and critical pundits during that run.
 
Yup. We were definitely good between October 2022 and February 2023, specifically that one month after the World Cup which culminated in us beating City 2-1 at home.

Yeah we were really competing in that period, was fully on the train after League Cup Final but what happened a week later just can't be buried