I want ten Hag out as much as anybody. However, who was there? None of them really screamed out at me. Tuchel would have not gotten on well and rejected us. McKenna stayed at Ipswich. De Zerbi went to Marseille. Nagelsmann remained as Germany manager. And Inzaghi and Amorim were happy to stay at Inter and Sporting, respectively.
Club ownership | Senior management team talk
- Thread starter golden_blunder
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Really pleased with INEOS and what they are doing. Think they've moved faster than I thought they would.
Moving fast though has it's own issues, even when right. Cohesion, settling of staff and players etc
I'm not ETH in at all costs but part of me thinks the changes and effectively "turmoil" it brings means patience will/is needed. I think we will get some pain not least because new players and when they signed need integrating/minutes/fitness etc
ETH needs blame for some of what has happened on the pitch last couple of seasons but think he needs patience now. I don't think a new manager would help until we are a little more settled.
I honestly think a lot is going on and it seems different this time. Maybe I'm reaching
Moving fast though has it's own issues, even when right. Cohesion, settling of staff and players etc
I'm not ETH in at all costs but part of me thinks the changes and effectively "turmoil" it brings means patience will/is needed. I think we will get some pain not least because new players and when they signed need integrating/minutes/fitness etc
ETH needs blame for some of what has happened on the pitch last couple of seasons but think he needs patience now. I don't think a new manager would help until we are a little more settled.
I honestly think a lot is going on and it seems different this time. Maybe I'm reaching
True. Like when to bring in the new manager.
We could have had any of those bar Tuchel who like you say seemingly rejected us and Nagelsman. They took the cheap option.
We've just been beaten by two new managers.
It's replacing manager who could easily have finished 15th or lower, a candidate didn't need to 'scream out'.
Beaten by two managers who have come into fully functioning teams. It is the unusual case of the managers being replaced have both left, not been sacked, so there were no issues in team cohesion.
Put Slott or Hurzeler in charge of our shower and see how exceptional they are.
I bet they would do a lot better than Erik is currently doing
But you've been saying this about more or less everything at the club for the past decade. You may call him a meddling banker now but at the time you were fully endorsing Woodward.
Fully endorsing him? Bit of a reach and even in that instance proves nothing.
If you disagree with the point I’ve just made fair enough but have the conviction to say so and explain why. Don’t try and divert.
I think so too. Just that, when it comes to the quality of performances on the pitch, I've always blamed the managers and for me, these have never been board questions, regardless of how useless Woodward, Murtough or the Glazers were.
Under the Woodward and Murtough, we had key issues which consistently affected our ability to contend. Firstly, we always lacked the depth to compete on different front, so as a result, always tailed off towards the end of the season. We also struggled heavily when confronted with key injuries, again due to the lack of depth. Their strategy focused on signing big name key players, whilst not focusing on spending much to fill out the rest of the first xi or depth. In additon, their spending pattern was reactionary, leaving us in a space where we were always catching up. I also put a massive degree of blame on them for not holding our managers to task and letting them run the team without pressure from within, which allowed a lot of the drop in standard.
Mourinho for example was held back by the Woodward regime. In 16/17, we struggled at the tail end of the season in terms of performances due to our lack of quality in depth. In addition, we had a lot of deadwood in the first xi in his first season. By his second season, he'd managed to bring in some players and we could see the potential for consistent performances at the start of the season. However, Pogba getting injured and the lack of depth we had to combat that led to us not being able to challenge despite coming second. Then instead of fixing that need, they didn't spend as they were comfortable with the team we had despite its gaps. Ole also suffered under that regime. The team was gutted by 19/20 with players like Pereira, Dan James and Lingard regularly starting. These players have proven over time not to be mid-table standard. Our depth was still a problem and we had gaps in many positions. Despite this, he was still able to get us to 3rd and 2nd, usually being able to beat lower teams, despite struggling to break them down, whilst not being able to contend with stronger teams unless employing a defensive strategy.
For me, that's the sign. I always cite Wenger at Arsenal when using this example. From 2011 to 2018, he didn't have a strong team. However, they were able to still play good football, particular against lower teams. They didn't have the ammunition to consistently win away games or go toe to toe with other top teams, hence why they got thrashed in big games, but they were able to create chances, score goals and control games in 85% of games. LVG and ETH are two managers who, despite having the requisite support in the market have consistently been unable to meet the minimum brief. With ETH last season, we had about 3 or 4 good games all season. Yes, our depth was not as good as we would have liked, but there was no excuses for the type of football we played or the fact that we consistently were out of control in almost every game.
The point is, they've done well in getting United to a place where I genuinely believe we have a really good squad and a competent senior management team in place. In order to ensure they had those things in order (despite my initial annoyance), they kept ETH in place. That doesn't mean they trust him or that he has performed well, but that he allowed for some stability at such a tumultuous time. However, now that those things are in place, sooner rather than later, I think its time to cut our losses and actually build toward the future. The more time we give him to run players into the ground and keep them disgruntled, the worse our prospects. I don't believe Rashford or Casemiro are bad players, but scapegoats to a poorly tactical system.
I am not eth in but this whole idea that anyone will do a better job never works.. probably will start well but then could end up being worse than eth.
Having said that I do believe there are many decent managers who are available who could do a better job than what eth is doing right now. Tuchel being one.
They don't need to be anywhere near exceptional to be better than whatever this is.
If he hasn't got a 'functioning team' after over 2 when is it going to happen?
Yep. Will find the same on Arnold, Murtough etc too.
I still believe that we have a fairly solid squad and its not the squad that's the main problem. Part of it is new signings bedding in and then you also have some players currently out. There are obvious big deficiencies that need to be addressed but the big failure isn't the weakness of the squad. We have a very good defense on paper, a midfield that should function well (Let's say its Ugarte/Casemiro/Mainoo). Lack of a reliable/productive attacking player is a big problem but there's talent and potential in Garnacho, Diallo & Hojlund/Zirkzee that deserves some time & patience.
The club however still struggles with an identity. We still don't know who we are on the pitch and that's just so alarming. We have the likes of Bruno & Rashford starting every single match when you cannot build a proper top side around them. They are not players suited to a successful modern football style. You cannot rely on them to produce, not make mistakes or be consistent. Rashford might be done here soon but we just handed an extension to Bruno and he's our captain. Casemiro is currently the main target of blame for fans and yes, he's also part of the problem but tactically, our midfield is just set up fail, even Mainoo is set up to fail. Playing Ugarte alongside Casemiro and Mainoo can mitigate a lot of these player issues by reducing responsibility on Casemiro & Mainoo but who are we dropping for that? Bruno? He's undroppable apparently. Someone mentioned earlier that INEOS' first fumble was handing that extension to Bruno and I agree. I wanted ETH out despite FA Cup win but I understood why INEOS retained him. But I just don't know how you can bring in people who have an idea of modern football and they end up handing an extension to Bruno Fernandes. Or how Rashford keeps being given chances here. We need to have an identity tactically, to hold "stars" accountable & ultimately get rid (Bruno, Rashford), move on more deadwood, and obviously move on from ETH to move forward.
The club however still struggles with an identity. We still don't know who we are on the pitch and that's just so alarming. We have the likes of Bruno & Rashford starting every single match when you cannot build a proper top side around them. They are not players suited to a successful modern football style. You cannot rely on them to produce, not make mistakes or be consistent. Rashford might be done here soon but we just handed an extension to Bruno and he's our captain. Casemiro is currently the main target of blame for fans and yes, he's also part of the problem but tactically, our midfield is just set up fail, even Mainoo is set up to fail. Playing Ugarte alongside Casemiro and Mainoo can mitigate a lot of these player issues by reducing responsibility on Casemiro & Mainoo but who are we dropping for that? Bruno? He's undroppable apparently. Someone mentioned earlier that INEOS' first fumble was handing that extension to Bruno and I agree. I wanted ETH out despite FA Cup win but I understood why INEOS retained him. But I just don't know how you can bring in people who have an idea of modern football and they end up handing an extension to Bruno Fernandes. Or how Rashford keeps being given chances here. We need to have an identity tactically, to hold "stars" accountable & ultimately get rid (Bruno, Rashford), move on more deadwood, and obviously move on from ETH to move forward.
I think having numbers on paper is one thing but it's the mentality and intelligence we have lacked.
Pogba on paper was a good even great player but if you listen to Evra his mentality was fragile as a small child's.
LVG, for all his endeavors, constantly spoke about players being adaptable on the pitch and it no longer being the managers job when the whistle goes and the opposition do something different.
When I listen to Keane, Nev, Rooney, Ole, Stam et al. They all say how there wasn't need for instructions to adapt. They say training was harder than match days.
Our signing of likes of Schweiny and Casemeiro is indicative of trying to get players who can be leaders on the pitch. I think it's about making changes as and when and supporting and shouting at team mates when required.
Our ex defenders put EVDS as top keeper over schmikes simply because he was vocal and organized them.
I think likes of Ronaldo and Case and Schweiny lost their love for the game because those around them just weren't intelligent enough.
On a tangent here but I remember Wrighty saying he was put off coaching because players couldn't make basic decisions in passing. He said you taught them on the training pitch but they couldn't execute basic orders when on the pitch. He seemed to indicate that there wasn't much you could do about it as times had changed to how you can treat players these days.
I don't see a leader in our previous squad. But I do see hope for likes of deligt and Mazz and Zirkzee even.
I know it was a small incident but deligt taking out the Liverpool player for his yellow was a very positive thing for me. It wasn't a Case sliding tackle that was mistimed. It was with intent.
Mazz is vocal and so is Zirkzee. So maybe mentality is a key criteria for signings. I hope so
The long term target is we should be like Brighton, Liverpool and City. Very well run club with a clear style of play. Manager can come and go smoothly without any major problem
You're not wrong and its one of the reasons I'm not that harsh on Casemiro, he's a proven player over his career and we've seen him play very well here too. Yes his legs might not be the same but its not like he can't still play in some role. But expecting him to do all the defensive work that prime Casemiro did, that's not going to happen. You're right that some of our players do lack intelligence and a good mentality, I put Bruno and Rashford in that category. I do think we have some good leaders now, I also see Dalot emerging as a leader eventually. Bruno is our captain and while he's a strong character, he also has clear temperament issues when things are not going his way. He comes across as way too petulant and frustrated in adversity. You can't have that from your captain.
The fact that ETH still starts Rashford is a clear indication he needs to go.
I can't stand any more of this football and desperately want a change so I can enjoy watching again
Erm, Glazers sacked a manager who won the FA Cup but missed out on CL on goal difference. There is no chance in hell this guy who finished 8th would've been here after the FAC final never mind until December.
Hmmm we will see whether they have moved away from signing players that Erik knows
Great transfer business all around. Too bad about the manager though.
Also, seems like INEOS are serious about the stadium situation.
Also, seems like INEOS are serious about the stadium situation.
Doesn't matter so much if ETH knows them or not, I think this point gets overstated. What really matter is, if we end up sacking ETH, will the new manager want to work with that player too? In the case of De Ligt, for example, I can't imagine many managers would want to immediately bin him as soon as they arrived.
All that matters is that our new players are good enough, at the right price, and they're a stylistic fit for future managers as well as the current. If someone ticks those boxes and also knows the current manager as well, fine.
I guess Wilcox is defacto backup for Ashworth now
Was always coming after that 3-0 defeat at home to Liverpool.
What of this do you disagree with @Samid @Leftback99 ?
Would be interesting to see your views rather than indulging in nonsense.
I disagree with the first point that they haven't left themselves in a pickle. They didn't need to be in post to see that Ten Hag wasn't up to it. The eye test, ear test and numbers all stacked to show it.
I'm reasonably positive that this lot could turn us round eventually but I believe they've made a big misstep keeping Ten Hag on. Now more expensive to get rid of when they clearly don't have much room spending wise. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I'm pretty sure you tried telling me once that things would be different under Arnold when all they had done was shuffle around the same people that had got us in the mess. You're obviously a lot more positive than I am on us but I've seen us fail to often to keep thinking everything will work next time.
Hmm guess Jim didn't quite understand Ashworth's request to "get that bald cnut out of the club" after the Liverpool defeat.
That’s better. Appreciate your views.
I don’t believe it’s a big mistake RE Ten Hag nor would it really impact us financially should he have to be let go.
I can often be guilty of being more the optimist rather than the pessimist however I think we can both agree that the change with INEOS is the biggest in the clubs history since Sir Alex left.
An who was going to be identifying this grand successor? The same guys who had appointed the previous ones? As Barrada and Ashworth weren't even in the building at that point.
It would have been foolish to switch manager when there wasn't anyone proven available, FFS this is the same summer Bayern had to settle for a relegated Kompany.
I'm confident if Ancelotti was available we would have pounced, but simply there was no one of a high calibre on the market.
You don't move from a Renault to a Vauxhall when you are in the market for an Audi.
Well it's up to INEOS to try and lure one of these candidates away by selling them an attractive project
Slot has been in charge for 3-games. They’ve done well but he’s achieved nothing. Football is funny and the first poor game and the wheels can come off.
Loads of new managers have a honeymoon period just as we saw with Ange last season. Lots of Spurs fans are already tiring of him.
Somewhat overlooked is how young the squad is getting.
Why you make it like its very hard to replace ETH? Need someone who "screamed out"? ETH can't coach defence, midfield or attack. We can't get any worse really especially with proper football people now in place.
I understand that, but we shouldn’t be replacing him with any old sod. If any old sod can set up a team better than EtH but is still not good enough, then we shouldn’t hire them. We’re Manchester United, not Wolverhampton Wanderers.
Pretty much my thoughts as well. It's going to take time and patience. It could get worse on the playing side before signs of progress.
I'm happy to let the process evolve for a few more months before making any judgements on the new execs. Hopefully in February, after the January window, we will be able to see the club heading in the upward direction we all want, on and off the pitch.
It could become a rough ride short term but at this moment there's no point in reacting to every setback as if it's the end of the world. Let's give it a couple of months before we all shit the bed.
Exactly, some may remember the OGS honeymoon that blinded ourselves
I am very pleased with the new regime.
ETH can be an excellent coach, he is however struggling to improvise with his squad when key players are missing. I do not think it is right to blame him to that extent for last. Our injury crisis has been back-breaking.
And regarding the first three games of this season I am a little torn. On one hand I am really annoyed by the result against Liverpool, on the other we should keep in mind that we were missing:
Shaw
Hojlund
Mount
Yoro
and that some of our most important players had very little pre-season:
Licha
Mainoo
Garnacho
Zirkzee
De Ligt
Mazraoui (albeit he had pre-season with Bayern).
In other words, our squad is "pretty good", but the team is not yet ready for the season. While the statement was surprising, ETH confirmed so in an interview at the start of the season. I do not think he is to blame for the lack of time he had. As said above, I do believe that ETH struggles to improvise under difficult situations with many absences. Yes, Ancelotti/Klopp/Guardiola might have achieved better result under this circumstance, but I do not expect 99% of coaches to do so. Of course, other teams also had players at the Euros, at Copa or injured during summer. However, it does feel that no other team PL Team has been hit as badly with a combination of these challenges.
Who would have thought that a transfer-free Liverpool would not have an advantage against a newly assembled ManUtd team with several pieces sidelined? As a cross comparison; do really think Slot improved Liverpool (yet)? It is no sorcery to play an excellent "more defencively" and it helps when you score all your 3 shots on targets.
Also and on a sidenote, I am afraid that I think that Slot will do well when he also finds the time to coach his team. Regarding the squad and its potential, I am totally optimistic that we will be much better off than Pool in a 2-3 season time. I really think we need to be patient and see the bigger picture.