Club ownership | Senior management team talk

Redstain said:
Few on here have already mentioned the debt refinancing from late last year it's no surprise.

Simply put INEOS are too broke to dig the club out of the hole, the cost cuts work for a conventional business but in a competitive sport where there are multiple wealthy owners it only pushes the club further down the pecking order. If United isn't acquired by a state backed venture or a very nuanced consortium the club is finished from a financial point of view.

Sir Jim puts his own liability at risk with the development of a new stadium, it's at a point where if there's no changes in the next 12 months the league should realistically step in to enforce sanctions against the club which will ultimately force the owners out. It's not sustainable.
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INEOS maybe using the stadium redevelopment plan as a ruse just like the Glazer's did all these years to appease the fans and take some heat away from the current condition of Old Trafford.
 
I haven't read the financial reports in while but didn't our debt go down to gbp 300m-400m a few years back? Whether did this extra debt come from?
 
Redstain said:
Simply put INEOS are too broke to dig the club out of the hole, the cost cuts work for a conventional business but in a competitive sport where there are multiple wealthy owners it only pushes the club further down the pecking order. If United isn't acquired by a state backed venture or a very nuanced consortium the club is finished from a financial point of view.
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Not quite.

The club could alleviate, or at least manage this predicament better, by being successful on the pitch.

A new stadium, or even a Euro Super League (I don't want it, either, but it's potentially lucrative, let's not lie) are other options.

The whole 'Qatar or bust' routine is opportunistic.

Liverpool, for one example, are in a fantastic position without having exceptional finances or sportswashing owners.
 
Marwood said:
I could almost accept the interest payments if the debt had now been paid off.

But that's it's still there is a real sickener.
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Thought the same yesterday. The fact they’re actively paying themselves money whilst their debt increases for us to deal with is scandalous. Whilst the football is this bad we need mass protests akin to that Liverpool game every game.
 
It’s a scary situation this, because if you have people at the top of an organisation who are incompetent, like the Glazers, then you are at the mercy of the senior personnel they bring in to run the club. As we saw from 2013 onwards, they put people in place like Woodward who had no idea what he was doing, and then Arnold and Murtough who were even worse.

The idea with INEOS was that they were more savvy, “best in class” operators who would be able to break that chain and make the right appointments and sensible decisions.

Unfortunately in an astonishingly short amount of time they have shown themselves to be not just shoddy businessmen resorting to the age-old practice of trying to save money by firing people, but also utterly clueless at the football side too, making one pathetic decision after another

Now we have not one but two sets of incompetents running the club, with no hope of that changing unless somehow the entire thing is bought out by someone vastly rich who knows what they are doing at every level - essentially like City were in 2008.
 
careca07 said:
It’s a scary situation this, because if you have people at the top of an organisation who are incompetent, like the Glazers, then you are at the mercy of the senior personnel they bring in to run the club. As we saw from 2013 onwards, they put people in place like Woodward who had no idea what he was doing, and then Arnold and Murtough who were even worse.

The idea with INEOS was that they were more savvy, “best in class” operators who would be able to break that chain and make the right appointments and sensible decisions.

Unfortunately in an astonishingly short amount of time they have shown themselves to be not just shoddy businessmen resorting to the age-old practice of trying to save money by firing people, but also utterly clueless at the football side too, making one pathetic decision after another

Now we have not one but two sets of incompetents running the club, with no hope of that changing unless somehow the entire thing is bought out by someone vastly rich who knows what they are doing at every level - essentially like City were in 2008.
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This is just nonsense really. You do not have to be bought out by a state to get change.

I dont understand why fans think that 12 years of mismanagement can be undone in 1 year... this is not a video game.
 
The sliver of hope we had from the INEOS stake purchase and control of football operations was that in no way can anyone be worse than the Glazers. But a few months down the line, here we are: they are as, if not more, stupid than the Glazer's.

For 22 years we have been too passive us fans. We allowed the club to be slowly stripped as Fergie's presence papered over their loot and we were too happy with all the title wins. Then we silently stood and witnessed Woody piss away our present and the future. Then we hailed the 'local lad' and his false promises of "best in class" despite fully being aware of his massive failures with other football clubs and how he operates in his other businesses. Hopefully, we won't be quiet now. The only way I can see this club get back is if, us, the fans become vocal and force these two moronic entities out. I see no other way to escape from their clutches. They are happy to see our downfall as long as they keep getting their cut. They'll keep bleeding us dry till we allow them to.

God save this club!
 
So if 1billion is for financing the debt, how much of it is left (ignoring other debts)?

What was it at the start and what is it now?
 
Considering we’re meant to be saving money by getting rid of dozens of staff I’m pretty sure it’s costed a lot more to sack half of them. Especially ETH since you then have to pay of contracts.
 
INEOS are Liverpool supporters. No other explanation as to why there ruining our club.
 
Insanity said:
For 22 years we have been too passive us fans. We allowed the club to be slowly stripped as Fergie's presence papered over their loot and we were too happy with all the title wins. Then we silently stood and witnessed Woody piss away our present and the future. Then we hailed the 'local lad' and his false promises of "best in class" despite fully being aware of his massive failures with other football clubs and how he operates in his other businesses. Hopefully, we won't be quiet now. The only way I can see this club get back is if, us, the fans become vocal and force these two moronic entities out. I see no other way to escape from their clutches. They are happy to see our downfall as long as they keep getting their cut. They'll keep bleeding us dry till we allow them to.
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Yes. People lose their energy in Amorim thread but in the long run it really doesn't mean anything. The very fact we are still pulled down by that debt and people who are responsable for it not only got away with it but take millions to this day filling their bank accounts is the real issue. Not Dorgu being on the left or right. And Ineos for deciding to lay in bed with them while selling putting Mancester back in United shit to do it. Only to raise ticket price and make people lose their jobs. I was stupid enough to believe them but at this point it is pretty obvious they just allowed Glazers to continue to get away with it

People should riot. This club didnt deserve any of it so we can at least pay our debt for all the joy it has given to us.

Rant over.
 
Where do we go from here... looks like even the Glazers are better in team handling than Ineos. Such a shocking thing even to say

 
Insanity said:
I haven't read the financial reports in while but didn't our debt go down to gbp 300m-400m a few years back? Whether did this extra debt come from?
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Yes it did. They added more debt so they could back various managers with players in recent years without success.

So while Ineos have been worse so far, we were top 6 mostly under the Glazers running by increasing the debt 100-200m each time.
 
romufc said:
This is just nonsense really. You do not have to be bought out by a state to get change.

I dont understand why fans think that 12 years of mismanagement can be undone in 1 year... this is not a video game.
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Agreed totally. And to further your point, it’s been 20 years of mismanagement.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
Where do we go from here... looks like even the Glazers are better in team handling than Ineos. Such a shocking thing even to say

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The bit about buying players to suit ETH's style then having to buy a load more to suit Amorim's style is just opinion. Players don't fit just one style and way more important is are they good enough.

If they're going to talk about wasting money it'd be better to stick to facts like the interest payments etc.
 
Swedish_Plumber said:
Agreed totally. And to further your point, it’s been 20 years of mismanagement.
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Did you not know... those 20 years didnt't mean anything.. Its not Glazers fault anymore because we finished top 6.. have you heard that one? I have read it 4/5 times today..

Forget the 1bn debt we are in because of the Glazers, its all the fault of the minority owners that we are in such financial mess.

Nothing to do with the fact that £20m dividends was paid yearly too.
 
Is there any possibility that INEOS are making cuts elsewhere in their portfolio with the intention of buying further shares in the club? I have no idea of the viability of this, so just thinking aloud.
 
So we paid 1billion dollars in interest repayments and the current debt from the original buy-out is around 500million. So no change in debt from the original buy-out.

I am not including the revolving debt/credit and owing of player fees.

I find it crazy! It will not get any better with the new stadium debt.
 
romufc said:
This is just nonsense really. You do not have to be bought out by a state to get change.

I dont understand why fans think that 12 years of mismanagement can be undone in 1 year... this is not a video game.
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You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about

And nobody mentioned a one year fix - it will require a decade of top to bottom change with the right people in place

If you think the Glazers and INEOS are capable operators with the nouse to put together a successful plan for the club over several years then you’re in for a very rude awakening
 
romufc said:
Did you not know... those 20 years didnt't mean anything.. Its not Glazers fault anymore because we finished top 6.. have you heard that one? I have read it 4/5 times today..

Forget the 1bn debt we are in because of the Glazers, its all the fault of the minority owners that we are in such financial mess.

Nothing to do with the fact that £20m dividends was paid yearly too.
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Yet another managerial buyout would surely help our financial predicament
 
The good thing about these numbers is that now United should deal with the elephant in the room. The debt's interests are currently equivalent to one flop of a transfer with no resale value. Every. Year. Or 4 to 6 rehirings of Ten Hag.

The leveraged debt's book value should be around 600-700M. INEOS should be able to pay half of that, refinance it with debt put on itself, and only gain around 5-6% of shares so the majority position of the Glazers isn't threatened (plus, it could be a way to put pressure on them to do the same). That would mean saving around 25-30M a year for PSR and either transfer spending (that's 1 signing a year) or wages (that's 2 star level players wages or 4-5 squad players).

But of course, INEOS need not to be in financial distress to do that.
 
I'm probably being incredibly naive here - but why doesn't the Premier League question what the Glazers are doing? They are potentially threatening the stability of one of the PL's prize assets in Manchester United. How can the Glazers get away with this? How are they getting away with it.
As I said, I am probably incredibly naive here and someone may patronizingly say "Because the Glazers legally can do it" but its just shocking and obviously depressing that it's happening.

Probably a joy for any rival fan to see this happening to us, but if they saw it happening to their club they'd hopefully realise how diabolical this all is.
 
careca07 said:
You haven’t got a clue what you’re talking about

And nobody mentioned a one year fix - it will require a decade of top to bottom change with the right people in place

If you think the Glazers and INEOS are capable operators with the nouse to put together a successful plan for the club over several years then you’re in for a very rude awakening
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Yes Yes, I dont know what I am talking about... but you are writing off INEOS in 1 year...

erm... if you're writing INEOS off after 1 year in charge, clearly you were expecting things to be fixed, otherwise you wouldn't say they are worse than Glazers or same.... But ofcourse you know so much about football ownership.

Remind me... what club do you own that you have so much of a clue about?
 
romufc said:
This is just nonsense really. You do not have to be bought out by a state to get change.

I dont understand why fans think that 12 years of mismanagement can be undone in 1 year... this is not a video game.
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Apologies I shouldn’t have taken it personally and reacted. I agree that it will take a long time to fix- it needs much better people to do it than we have now
 
careca07 said:
Apologies I shouldn’t have taken it personally and reacted. I agree that it will take a long time to fix- it needs much better people to do it than we have now
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No problems but even if we hire people now... from my experience, when a business is failing badly, which we are, strong harsh decisions have to be made in order to get back to a sustainable model that works.

I mean the Glazers have let this club so far that regardless who took over, who is hired, those harsh decisions would have needed to be made.

I would say give it another year to see if INEOS have learnt from their mistakes and if what they are trying to implement will work. This will be the first summer window with a proper footballing structure.

If in a years time things are just as bad, then you are right and I will hold it.
 
MaxZorin said:
Not quite.

The club could alleviate, or at least manage this predicament better, by being successful on the pitch.

A new stadium, or even a Euro Super League (I don't want it, either, but it's potentially lucrative, let's not lie) are other options.

The whole 'Qatar or bust' routine is opportunistic.

Liverpool, for one example, are in a fantastic position without having exceptional finances or sportswashing owners.
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Liverpool did not have a 700m debt for a leveraged buyout. Liverpool does not have 7 different owners (6 Glazers and Jim). Gigantic difference between us and Liverpool.

We far far far worse in a situation than Liverpool ever been.
 
Pretty much looks like it was “Qatar or bust” for us after the Glazers. Didn’t realise how close it is to actual bust!
 
At this stage it would be nice if the government could take a look at this now.

They did it for Chelsea under extreme circumstances, I don't see how at this point what the Glazers have done to United can't also be deemed extreme circumstances.
 
I’d love to know what Alex Ferguson thinks. He has largely spoken warmly of the Glazers, but a billion quid. A billion. It’s absolutely crazy:
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
At this stage it would be nice if the government could take a look at this now.

They did it for Chelsea under extreme circumstances, I don't see how at this point what the Glazers have done to United can't also be deemed extreme circumstances.
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Just had the same conversation with the missus about Chelsea situation. She wasn't really interested. However I think because the debt is the clubs they would never get involved. As stupid as that is.

Would be nice if the government said no regeneration plans can be rubber stamped until you have paid down a certain amount of debt.

Dreaming I suppose.
 
Insanity said:
I haven't read the financial reports in while but didn't our debt go down to gbp 300m-400m a few years back? Whether did this extra debt come from?
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redshaw said:
Yes it did. They added more debt so they could back various managers with players in recent years without success.

So while Ineos have been worse so far, we were top 6 mostly under the Glazers running by increasing the debt 100-200m each time.
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Most of the debt is also dollar-denominated, so as the dollar strengthens relative to the pound, it makes the debt "larger" in GBP terms.
 
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