Climate Change | UN Report: Code Red for humanity

Maticmaker said:
I don't think the approach to this problem will work whilst the 'blame game' is implicit in the rhetoric.

The developed countries should be investing in the future and that means actively supporting countries who require development. This obsession with the 'sins of the past' is in danger of ruining the future, for everybody. Developed countries are seen to be reneging on their past commitments and because in some cases millions of pounds worth of aid, given in the past, has been squandered or spirited away to the private accounts of dubious leaders in many countries.

The time is now due for proper provisions to be and laid out, and the basic elements made public in every country benefiting and every country contributing to climate change reversal and forfeits should be applied to those who transgress either in the provision of agreed contributions or the misuse of such contributions.

In the end its the United Nations that needs to be seen to be "getting a grip" and it is essential and no one country should be allowed to opt out and no one country allowed to disrupt the provisions, but at the moment looking it at the state of our world at present and the inability, in many cases, of the UN to act in unison, it's a grim outlook facing us all.
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Indeed.
The reparations issue where developing countries are demanding developed countries should pay them for the problems of the past.
This is being seen as a blank cheque. And countries like China and India who are recent major polluters are among the developing countries which seems crazy.

This could easily derail progress which is a big danger.
We all have to focus on the future not the past.
 
Stookie said:
Earths population to hit 8 Billion next week. Don’t know if it’s the right thread for it or if it deserves a thread of its own.
https://apple.news/AWHvgBH3PMzWn2Ew8f2sUlg
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It's relevant because it's the core of the problem and something for which no one has come up with a workable solution to, regardless of how much countries do or don't invest or buy into it.

It's mot just about the climate its about resources in general and the fact there aren't enough of them, renewable or otherwise, to sustain either the population growth or a healthy planet.
 
noodlehair said:
It's relevant because it's the core of the problem and something for which no one has come up with a workable solution to, regardless of how much countries do or don't invest or buy into it.

It's mot just about the climate its about resources in general and the fact there aren't enough of them, renewable or otherwise, to sustain either the population growth or a healthy planet.
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I think the solution to the population problem is to raise the standard of living in developing countries; which then drastically lowers the birth rate

this process is already happening and it's why the worlds population is predicted to peak in around about ~80 years or so

not much help in the short term, but at least long term there is a viable solution
 
Frosty said:
Anyone impacted by the Just Stop Oil protests today?
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I still don't know what these people want that is remotely realistic or actually makes any sense? How do you "just stop oil"? What do they think would happen if every car was powered by another source and we had to suddenly build 40m new cars and find about 100% more electricity? Are there any more pointless people than ones who just protest about stuff they don't even have a sensible solution to? Would be like me saying "just stop building houses". Idiots

It doesn't affect me anymore since I moved to the Midlands, but I used to use the M25 every day. If its not protesters it's an accident, or the bridge being closed due to a bout of moderate weather, or horses escaped onto the motorway, or too many people at Lakeside, or sometimes just because its a weekday. The problem with trying to cause disruption on the most disrupted road in the country is that no one stuck on it could give a shit why the m25 isnt moving for the 4th time in a week, other than just wishing they didn't have to use it.
 
Tarrou said:
I think the solution to the population problem is to raise the standard of living in developing countries; which then drastically lowers the birth rate

this process is already happening and it's why the worlds population is predicted to peak in around about ~80 years or so

not much help in the short term, but at least long term there is a viable solution
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It's not that viable as even if it was at its peak now the population is already greater than the resources the planet can sustain to support it.

What's more likely is, you know, wars, or indirect/semi natural population control through things like a resource (cost of living) crisis, or viruses spreading more easily, etc.
 
noodlehair said:
I still don't know what these people want that is remotely realistic or actually makes any sense? How do you "just stop oil"? What do they think would happen if every car was powered by another source and we had to suddenly build 40m new cars and find about 100% more electricity? Are there any more pointless people than ones who just protest about stuff they don't even have a sensible solution to? Would be like me saying "just stop building houses". Idiots

It doesn't affect me anymore since I moved to the Midlands, but I used to use the M25 every day. If its not protesters it's an accident, or the bridge being closed due to a bout of moderate weather, or horses escaped onto the motorway, or too many people at Lakeside, or sometimes just because its a weekday. The problem with trying to cause disruption on the most disrupted road in the country is that no one stuck on it could give a shit why the m25 isnt moving for the 4th time in a week, other than just wishing they didn't have to use it.
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I suppose they think using simple slogans at a dumb as feck electorate is more impactful at seeping in the message than a detailed manifesto. If only their was some kind of recent evidence to support that.

Protests like Just Stop Oil and Insulate Britain (which you were also a grumpy git over) are just marketing campaigns for a cause, not hostage demands. It doesn't matter that they're derided as the point is it raises awareness and positions people for more reasonable policy. Most people aren't obtuse enough to expect protestors to have the solution or take a 3 word slogan so literally.
 
noodlehair said:
It's not that viable as even if it was at its peak now the population is already greater than the resources the planet can sustain to support it.

What's more likely is, you know, wars, or indirect/semi natural population control through things like a resource (cost of living) crisis, or viruses spreading more easily, etc.
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I agree that your examples are more likely on shorter timeframes. You can add vaccines to that list (probably the main reason population growth is slowing)

there are processes in motion that make it more viable over time though; certainly on longer timeframes like decades

some reasons to be optimistic;

we're becoming much better at renewable energy; and in terms of resources for that there are definitely enough available if we learn to harness it efficiently

and just in general the deflationary nature of technology. Innovation in technology improves efficiency and positively impacts the supply of resources on the planet
 
Smores said:
I suppose they think using simple slogans at a dumb as feck electorate is more impactful at seeping in the message than a detailed manifesto. If only their was some kind of recent evidence to support that.

Protests like Just Stop Oil and Insulate Britain (which you were also a grumpy git over) are just marketing campaigns for a cause, not hostage demands. It doesn't matter that they're derided as the point is it raises awareness and positions people for more reasonable policy. Most people aren't obtuse enough to expect protestors to have the solution or take a 3 word slogan so literally.
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This makes absolutely no sense.

The point of a protest is that you want to bring about change. If you have no idea what change you want or how it can be achieved, what are you actually protesting for? It's not obtuse to expect that if someone feels passionately enough to protest about something, they should know a little bit about what it is they want. Would you go climb the QE2 Bridge and refuse to come down without either having a realistic end goal, or being an insane idiot?

A "cause" would be something like wanting more laws to combat racial discrimination, campaigning to prevent child poverty by fairer sharing of wealth, striking for better pay and working conditions, etc. In other words addressing problems by fighting for a viable solution.

Protesting about something you have no sensible answer for isn't a cause, it's just moaning about something you don't like and expecting someone else to magically come up with an answer for you. It would be like Mick Lynch coming out and saying the rail unions are going on strike until all other methods of transport are banned. Might as well glue yourself to a motorway and say you're not moving until someone buys you a unicorn.

The reason I am "grumpy" towards insulate Britain is because I happen to work in the house building industry and in relation to sustainable homes and buildings, and so know that none of what they demand makes any sense. It falls down on things like basic scientific or mathmatical facts, and whenever they are challenged on this they resort to spouting idiotic gibberish that has nothing to do with anything other than protecting their own image. They are just a left wing version of Nigel Farrage, peddling fantasy that ignores basic facts and thinking they have a right to force their ignorance upon everyone.

Why not protest about the government dragging its heels over renewable energy plans which ARE backed up by researched and published science, and which are actually quite achievable? No one seems to be doing this, although I suspect they actually are but are being overshadowed by weirdos climbing bridges and glueing themselves to roads to tell us all that they don't like oil and we should just all stop it.
 
noodlehair said:
I still don't know what these people want that is remotely realistic or actually makes any sense? How do you "just stop oil"? What do they think would happen if every car was powered by another source and we had to suddenly build 40m new cars and find about 100% more electricity? Are there any more pointless people than ones who just protest about stuff they don't even have a sensible solution to? Would be like me saying "just stop building houses". Idiots

It doesn't affect me anymore since I moved to the Midlands, but I used to use the M25 every day. If its not protesters it's an accident, or the bridge being closed due to a bout of moderate weather, or horses escaped onto the motorway, or too many people at Lakeside, or sometimes just because its a weekday. The problem with trying to cause disruption on the most disrupted road in the country is that no one stuck on it could give a shit why the m25 isnt moving for the 4th time in a week, other than just wishing they didn't have to use it.
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What they want is justification for not having a job or anything better to do on a Monday morning than try and get some high fives from their other jobless, feckwits of friends. Glued yourself to the wall? Just leave them there for a few days in their own piss and shit and see if they do it again.

The police need more powers to deal with these fools who go out trying to make a name for themselves with no real cause behind them.
 
noodlehair said:
I still don't know what these people want that is remotely realistic or actually makes any sense? How do you "just stop oil"
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You don't stop oil and it isn't realistic.

It's a cry of desperation from young people (mostly) who, perhaps for the first time ever are from a generation that can see that things are not going to get better, at least in terms of the perspective of their future.

The sad thing is the damage has already been done and it's been happening for millennium, the answer perhaps (in a biblical sense) is that 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.... maybe, if we could (collectively) figure that one out, there may be a way forward.

The human race has got itself into this position and can mitigate some of the problems to try to ensure life continues on the blue planet, but irritating the hell out of one another, playing the 'blame game' with each other, is probably not the best way forward.
 
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Maticmaker said:
You don't stop oil and it isn't realistic.

It's a cry of desperation from young people (mostly) who, perhaps for the first time ever are from a generation that can see that things are not going to get better, at least in terms of the perspective of their future.

The sad thing is the damage has already been done and it's been happening for millennium, the answer perhaps (in a biblical sense) is that 'the meek shall inherit the earth'.... maybe, if we could (collectively) figure that one out, there may be a way forward.

The human race has got itself into this position and can mitigate some of the problems to try to ensure life continues on the blue planet, but irritating the hell out of one another, playing the 'blame game' with each other, is probably not the best way forward.
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You will know that I am passionate about reducing the worst impacts of man made climate change.
And I have joined a few local peaceful protests.
But even I now feel that the majority of people do understand the need to do something.
So getting the message across is a delicate balance between maintaining the profile and alienating the public.

Nevertheless. The latest actions are not about getting the message across to the public.
It is about ratcheting up the pressure on both the government and the energy companies.
And sadly, you can not make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

So. What are the alternatives. Do nothing. Obviously not.
 
noodlehair said:
This makes absolutely no sense.

The point of a protest is that you want to bring about change. If you have no idea what change you want or how it can be achieved, what are you actually protesting for? It's not obtuse to expect that if someone feels passionately enough to protest about something, they should know a little bit about what it is they want. Would you go climb the QE2 Bridge and refuse to come down without either having a realistic end goal, or being an insane idiot?

A "cause" would be something like wanting more laws to combat racial discrimination, campaigning to prevent child poverty by fairer sharing of wealth, striking for better pay and working conditions, etc. In other words addressing problems by fighting for a viable solution.

Protesting about something you have no sensible answer for isn't a cause, it's just moaning about something you don't like and expecting someone else to magically come up with an answer for you. It would be like Mick Lynch coming out and saying the rail unions are going on strike until all other methods of transport are banned. Might as well glue yourself to a motorway and say you're not moving until someone buys you a unicorn.

The reason I am "grumpy" towards insulate Britain is because I happen to work in the house building industry and in relation to sustainable homes and buildings, and so know that none of what they demand makes any sense. It falls down on things like basic scientific or mathmatical facts, and whenever they are challenged on this they resort to spouting idiotic gibberish that has nothing to do with anything other than protecting their own image. They are just a left wing version of Nigel Farrage, peddling fantasy that ignores basic facts and thinking they have a right to force their ignorance upon everyone.

Why not protest about the government dragging its heels over renewable energy plans which ARE backed up by researched and published science, and which are actually quite achievable? No one seems to be doing this, although I suspect they actually are but are being overshadowed by weirdos climbing bridges and glueing themselves to roads to tell us all that they don't like oil and we should just all stop it.
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Just because you say it doesn't make sense doesn't make it so. Who says they don't know what change they want? We all know the change in principle that's needed so again you're being obtuse.

It's keeping the message in the media and that's aim number one. Pressure (via public discourse) has to be applied to those who have the power to actually implement a solid plan of change.

You're missing a very simple point so I'll repeat, stupid simple slogans are all the public can consume. These protests are aimed at the public as much as they are government so simple concepts dragged to the extreme work.

If you think a well reasoned lengthy address from them explaining the issue as you proposed is what gets the publics attention you're wrong. Others do just that and they never make the news.
 
Smores said:
I suppose they think using simple slogans at a dumb as feck electorate is more impactful at seeping in the message than a detailed manifesto. If only their was some kind of recent evidence to support that.

Protests like Just Stop Oil and Insulate Britain (which you were also a grumpy git over) are just marketing campaigns for a cause, not hostage demands. It doesn't matter that they're derided as the point is it raises awareness and positions people for more reasonable policy. Most people aren't obtuse enough to expect protestors to have the solution or take a 3 word slogan so literally.
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Fecking preach. Outliers like the just stop oil movement set the boundaries to the more extreme side of the paradigm. In its wake the more moderate discussion will take place, but we need people like them to move the goalpost. I fully support them, even though their isolated message doesn’t make sense.
 
I find climate change and the damage being done to the earth really upsetting. To the extent that I try not to think about it, which in itself is part of the problem.

Unlike most other issues, where you can perceive or imagine some resolution, I just can't fathom any way in which climate change could be reversed or halted. It's like an incurable disease hanging around all our necks.
 
Maticmaker said:
but irritating the hell out of one another, playing the 'blame game' with each other, is probably not the best way forward.
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The issue is that those who are actually to blame have never been held responsible, and continue to not be held responsible. At some point you're going to have a reaction, and I'll never be one to say that that reaction was unjustified, or unproductive, or playing the blame game.

A harsh culture of denunciation and shaming might just be better than a culture of nothing at all.
 
nimic said:
A harsh culture of denunciation and shaming might just be better than a culture of nothing at all.
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I seriously doubt that because the majority of people you are blaming are dead and gone, those that are alive now and who will be needed to make changes, are the foot soldiers for the future, the culture should be 'we are all in it together.... now what can you bring to the table to solve the problem'.
The scowling across the table and the 'blame game' gets you nowhere and the clocks ticking!
 
Maticmaker said:
I seriously doubt that because the majority of people you are blaming are dead and gone, those that are alive now and who will be needed to make changes, are the foot soldiers for the future, the culture should be 'we are all in it together.... now what can you bring to the table to solve the problem'.
The scowling across the table and the 'blame game' gets you nowhere and the clocks ticking!
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Greta Thunberg did quite a lot to get kids invested in fighting climate change, and she sure didn't do it by singing Kumbaya. The problem with "we're all in this together, let's not blame anyone" is that the people who actually are to blame will exploit it as weakness.
 
Buster15 said:
You will know that I am passionate about reducing the worst impacts of man made climate change.
And I have joined a few local peaceful protests.
But even I now feel that the majority of people do understand the need to do something.
So getting the message across is a delicate balance between maintaining the profile and alienating the public.

Nevertheless. The latest actions are not about getting the message across to the public.
It is about ratcheting up the pressure on both the government and the energy companies.
And sadly, you can not make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

So. What are the alternatives. Do nothing. Obviously not.
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Exactly, look what happened when the public was last alienated.... we got Brexit!

We are not making anything, that's the point we should be trying to find solutions to problems, the effects of which are becoming clearer by the day, Surely the energies put into protesting, should be directed to finding a solution, in fact thousands of solutions, not just slowing down climate change. but actively, assessing the myriad of situations arising and formulating strategies to combat these. Even if current plans are successful the earth's temperature will rise by 1.5 degrees, what does that mean in real terms, what are the engineering, scientific, medical and geological solutions required.
The world should be training more engineers, scientists, etc. now.... all those young people who are protesting about tomorrow should arm themselves with the knowledge required to combat what will happen... not what might happen. YOUR WORLD NEEDS YOU!
 
Maticmaker said:
Exactly, look what happened when the public was last alienated.... we got Brexit!

We are not making anything, that's the point we should be trying to find solutions to problems, the effects of which are becoming clearer by the day, Surely the energies put into protesting, should be directed to finding a solution, in fact thousands of solutions, not just slowing down climate change. but actively, assessing the myriad of situations arising and formulating strategies to combat these. Even if current plans are successful the earth's temperature will rise by 1.5 degrees, what does that mean in real terms, what are the engineering, scientific, medical and geological solutions required.
The world should be training more engineers, scientists, etc. now.... all those young people who are protesting about tomorrow should arm themselves with the knowledge required to combat what will happen... not what might happen. YOUR WORLD NEEDS YOU!
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And you and your knowledge and experience.
 
nimic said:
Greta Thunberg did quite a lot to get kids invested in fighting climate change, and she sure didn't do it by singing Kumbaya. The problem with "we're all in this together, let's not blame anyone" is that the people who actually are to blame will exploit it as weakness.
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Yes, Greta was a great warm up act, but she became a novelty...
Hindsight is a great thing, but it won't alter anything that is already in motion. The alert has been sounded, the reality is all around us, what is now needed is not only to stop behaving badly and start behaving in a way that will help. A certain amount of 'ar** kicking' is needed at times, but eventually both the receiver and the kicker get a form of 'buyer's remorse' and realise nothing is happening.
 
Buster15 said:
And you.
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of course....this is what we all should do...

It couldn’t be done (Edgar Albert Guest)

Somebody said that it couldn't be done,
But he with a chuckle replied
That "maybe it couldn't," but he would be one
Who wouldn't say so till he'd tried.
So he buckled right in with the trace of a grin
On his face. If he worried he hid it.
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.

Somebody scoffed: "Oh, you'll never do that;
At least no one ever has done it";
But he took off his coat and he took off his hat,
And the first thing we knew he'd begun it.
With a lift of his chin and a bit of a grin,
Without any doubting or quiddit,
He started to sing as he tackled the thing
That couldn't be done, and he did it.

There are thousands to tell you it cannot be done,
There are thousands to prophesy failure;
There are thousands to point out to you, one by one,
The dangers that wait to assail you.
But just buckle in with a bit of a grin,
Just take off your coat and go to it;
Just start to sing as you tackle the thing
That "cannot be done," and you'll do it.
 
Smores said:
Just because you say it doesn't make sense doesn't make it so. Who says they don't know what change they want? We all know the change in principle that's needed so again you're being obtuse.

It's keeping the message in the media and that's aim number one. Pressure (via public discourse) has to be applied to those who have the power to actually implement a solid plan of change.

You're missing a very simple point so I'll repeat, stupid simple slogans are all the public can consume. These protests are aimed at the public as much as they are government so simple concepts dragged to the extreme work.

If you think a well reasoned lengthy address from them explaining the issue as you proposed is what gets the publics attention you're wrong. Others do just that and they never make the news.
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It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense. Glueing yourself to a road or tying yourself to a bridge does not gather support for your cause. Attacking and disrupting the general public from being able to go about their day to day lives without even bothering to inform or warn them doesn't help or gather support for your cause. If you want a room full of people to agree with you and help you with something, you don't walk into the room and indiscriminately punch them all in the face and treat them like they are stupid. It's not up to me whether it makes sense. It just doesn't, and this is the first and most (actually quite clearly) obvious reason why.

Look at the general reaction to these people. The public either hate them or couldn't care less...they are actually if anything turning people against their cause rather than uniting people behind it. Both main political parties have no interest in taking them seriously, and actually will probably use them to bring in tougher anti protest laws with public backing.

And here's the other part that makes no sense; If the idea is to pressure "those who have the power", why don't they target their protests at said people? Do you think Sunak cares that J29 of the M25 is closed at 7am? Does this affect his day? Or hurt or harm his reputation in any way? or pressure him to do anything other than ban people from protesting on a motorway? What's the end game here?

What is it exactly they want "those who have power" to do? Immediately ban oil? Insulate all the houses? And what, magic up another fuel source and fully working infrastructure around it out of nowhere? Come up with a magic science defying way to insulate every home in Britain that won't leave a bigger carbon footprint than it would save?

Either you are suggesting that stupid slogans are going to help save the planet over logical qchievable solutions, or you are just proving the point. Protesting is supposed to be about fighting for change, not militant level virtue signalling.

"Why does it take young people like me, up on a gantry on the m25, for you to listen" ...a) no one can hear you if you're up on a gantry on the m25, b) I did listen and you literally didn't say anything that wasn't gibberish other than that I should listen.

It's not that I'm against wanting to save the planet or anti protesting, quite the opposite, it's simply that I think there's not much point resorting to extreme and hostile measures to get everyone to follow your plan, if you don't even fecking have one.
 
noodlehair said:
It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense. Glueing yourself to a road or tying yourself to a bridge does not gather support for your cause. Attacking and disrupting the general public from being able to go about their day to day lives without even bothering to inform or warn them doesn't help or gather support for your cause. If you want a room full of people to agree with you and help you with something, you don't walk into the room and indiscriminately punch them all in the face and treat them like they are stupid. It's not up to me whether it makes sense. It just doesn't, and this is the first and most (actually quite clearly) obvious reason why.

Look at the general reaction to these people. The public either hate them or couldn't care less...they are actually if anything turning people against their cause rather than uniting people behind it. Both main political parties have no interest in taking them seriously, and actually will probably use them to bring in tougher anti protest laws with public backing.

And here's the other part that makes no sense; If the idea is to pressure "those who have the power", why don't they target their protests at said people? Do you think Sunak cares that J29 of the M25 is closed at 7am? Does this affect his day? Or hurt or harm his reputation in any way? or pressure him to do anything other than ban people from protesting on a motorway? What's the end game here?

What is it exactly they want "those who have power" to do? Immediately ban oil? Insulate all the houses? And what, magic up another fuel source and fully working infrastructure around it out of nowhere? Come up with a magic science defying way to insulate every home in Britain that won't leave a bigger carbon footprint than it would save?

Either you are suggesting that stupid slogans are going to help save the planet over logical qchievable solutions, or you are just proving the point. Protesting is supposed to be about fighting for change, not militant level virtue signalling.

"Why does it take young people like me, up on a gantry on the m25, for you to listen" ...a) no one can hear you if you're up on a gantry on the m25, b) I did listen and you literally didn't say anything that wasn't gibberish other than that I should listen.

It's not that I'm against wanting to save the planet or anti protesting, quite the opposite, it's simply that I think there's not much point resorting to extreme and hostile measures to get everyone to follow your plan, if you don't even fecking have one.
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At the COP27 summit the General Secretary of the UN said that the world was ‘on the highway to hell and still pressing on the accelerator’. On the same day, Just Stop Oil activists climbed on gantries over the M25 with Louise posting her video online explaining why she was doing it.

Both were giving the same message, which got more media coverage in the UK? Now tell me again how these protests don’t get people talking.
 
noodlehair said:
It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense. Glueing yourself to a road or tying yourself to a bridge does not gather support for your cause. Attacking and disrupting the general public from being able to go about their day to day lives without even bothering to inform or warn them doesn't help or gather support for your cause. If you want a room full of people to agree with you and help you with something, you don't walk into the room and indiscriminately punch them all in the face and treat them like they are stupid. It's not up to me whether it makes sense. It just doesn't, and this is the first and most (actually quite clearly) obvious reason why.

Look at the general reaction to these people. The public either hate them or couldn't care less...they are actually if anything turning people against their cause rather than uniting people behind it. Both main political parties have no interest in taking them seriously, and actually will probably use them to bring in tougher anti protest laws with public backing.

And here's the other part that makes no sense; If the idea is to pressure "those who have the power", why don't they target their protests at said people? Do you think Sunak cares that J29 of the M25 is closed at 7am? Does this affect his day? Or hurt or harm his reputation in any way? or pressure him to do anything other than ban people from protesting on a motorway? What's the end game here?

What is it exactly they want "those who have power" to do? Immediately ban oil? Insulate all the houses? And what, magic up another fuel source and fully working infrastructure around it out of nowhere? Come up with a magic science defying way to insulate every home in Britain that won't leave a bigger carbon footprint than it would save?

Either you are suggesting that stupid slogans are going to help save the planet over logical qchievable solutions, or you are just proving the point. Protesting is supposed to be about fighting for change, not militant level virtue signalling.

"Why does it take young people like me, up on a gantry on the m25, for you to listen" ...a) no one can hear you if you're up on a gantry on the m25, b) I did listen and you literally didn't say anything that wasn't gibberish other than that I should listen.

It's not that I'm against wanting to save the planet or anti protesting, quite the opposite, it's simply that I think there's not much point resorting to extreme and hostile measures to get everyone to follow your plan, if you don't even fecking have one.
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You're saying these protests turn people against fighting for climate change? That obviously isn't true is it?

It's irrelevant whether people dislike the protesters or the methods. You think they don't know they're going to get arrested or absolutely slaughtered when they go on a talk show? They know all that is coming but they've achieved their climate change awareness goal.

Most people see these events, think they're twats but know there's some truth to their motives. That's enough because the question then is well what's being done, are the government doing enough? Constant reminders create a general pressure that reflects in polling and then policy to chase votes.

We'd all love someone qualified in the field to have the airtime to explain to the population on a constant basis. I don't think Good Morning Britain and Heart FM are going to do that are they?
 
The problem with many disruptive type protests is that they are either preaching to the choir, or alienating those who might help, or worse still failing to make any impact with those who don't give a toss. For example, with climate change issues there are large numbers of people whose lives today are desperate, and they are living day to day now and therefore asking them to worry about or make sacrifices for the future, is I'm afraid falling on deaf ears.

For me the most powerful protest I've seen for years is in the US, where the sight of large numbers of unarmed people, silently, peacefully and non-threateningly 'taking the knee' when facing rows of armed police to highlight 'Black Lives Matter'. This will stay with me for a long time... and I'm not taking about well-paid privileged footballers copy-catting this action in some virtue-signaling sense.
 
ForeverRed1 said:
and this right here is the biggest problem of all. It’s just not sustainable with how we live and it’s going to keep climbing.
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The way we are plundering our Earths natural resources with our current population is definitely not sustainable

experts have us down as plundering these precious resources at a rate of at the very least…..1.5 Earths

that means we do not have the resources available to us on this planet with the way we are consuming and living our lives

We are living in an era where “the current” living WILL be affected….us, it’s happening now

Morons saying just crack on with your life and enjoy what you can don’t actually realise the severity of this…..they probably don’t have Kids either! What world are we leaving for them??

Won’t happen in our lifetime? 1/3 or Pakistan is now underwater as just one example

something can be done, but it requires unity, which is why we are utterly Doomed

Unless we have a Jon Snow character that knows how too bring everyone together for a greater cause
 
TheLiverBird said:
The way we are plundering our Earths natural resources with our current population is definitely not sustainable

experts have us down as plundering these precious resources at a rate of at the very least…..1.5 Earths

that means we do not have the resources available to us on this planet with the way we are consuming and living our lives

We are living in an era where “the current” living WILL be affected….us, it’s happening now

Morons saying just crack on with your life and enjoy what you can don’t actually realise the severity of this…..they probably don’t have Kids either! What world are we leaving for them??

Won’t happen in our lifetime? 1/3 or Pakistan is now underwater as just one example

something can be done, but it requires unity, which is why we are utterly Doomed

Unless we have a Jon Snow character that knows how too bring everyone together for a greater cause
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Terrifying isn’t it? Not only terrifying but also really sad.
 
Smores said:
You're saying these protests turn people against fighting for climate change? That obviously isn't true is it?

It's irrelevant whether people dislike the protesters or the methods. You think they don't know they're going to get arrested or absolutely slaughtered when they go on a talk show? They know all that is coming but they've achieved their climate change awareness goal.

Most people see these events, think they're twats but know there's some truth to their motives. That's enough because the question then is well what's being done, are the government doing enough? Constant reminders create a general pressure that reflects in polling and then policy to chase votes.

We'd all love someone qualified in the field to have the airtime to explain to the population on a constant basis. I don't think Good Morning Britain and Heart FM are going to do that are they?
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Pretty sure no one is fighting FOR climate change?

It turns people against them, that's the point. Even if they did have a clear and achievable aim (which they don't) no one is going to take them seriously when the way they go about it is to, for some mind boggling reason, repeatedly attack the general public.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-who-...use-of-just-stop-oil-protests-on-the-m25-sai/

Do you think stuff like this gets anyone on their side or influences political opinion? It's a rather inventive leap of logic.

I honestly don't know what you're on about. Climate change awareness goal? Are you seriously trying to claim no one was aware of climate change until some people started blocking the M25 to shout about oil? There are literally world political summits on climate change. There's a fecking plethora of legislation, reports, studies, action plans etc. related directly to climate change. There is an act of parliament called "The Climate change Act". The weather has literally changed due to it. You'd have to be living under a rock, on the moon, to not be aware and concerned that its a thing. Its also a big underlying factor to the current energy price crisis since renewable energy supply (for the UK at least) is generally unaffected by foreign policies or which country is fighting which, and if you dig just a tiny bit you'll find a big government report projecting that wind energy will be the cheapest and most efficient within the next 10 years.

If these people are genuinely concerned about saving the planet and want to influence political polling, policies, etc. as you are suggesting, and are so determined to be specifically caught up on oil, why don't they get a bit smarter and target the oil suppliers which a) might actually make a difference to oil supply and b) doesn't involve going to war with every single person in the country.

Your argument is completely flawed and makes no basic sense. If you want to influence voting and polling etc. You have to positively influence the people who vote, which is everyone. Doing this alao gains you more supporters, and members, and makes you stronger. If your method of gaining support from everyone, is to attack everyone, you've probably made a wrong turn somewhere. You also need to have a goal or cause which can be reflected in political policy. Otherwise its impossible to have any political influence other than in policies or legislation aimed at shutting you up (which btw is exactly what has happened with the new police bill aimed at stopping people like extinction rebellion).

You don't need someone on morning TV trying to explain the science behind wind farms, or the projection of resource vs current and projected population, in order to gain awareness or support, but what you do need is to actually educate yourself on those kinds of subjects before you protest about them, so you actually have an educated clue what you want and are protesting for. I don't think this is particularly controversial as much as it is common sense. Secondly you do want to be in a position where if YOU are on Good Morking Britain, people might actually listen to you, rather than you being on there because you've deliberately made yourself a national hate figure and easy target.
 
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noodlehair said:
Pretty sure no one is fighting FOR climate change?

It turns people against them, that's the point. Even if they did have a clear and achievable aim (which they don't) no one is going to take them seriously when the way they go about it is to, for some mind boggling reason, repeatedly attack the general public.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/man-who-...use-of-just-stop-oil-protests-on-the-m25-sai/

Do you think stuff like this gets anyone on their side or influences political opinion? It's a rather inventive leap of logic.

I honestly don't know what you're on about. Climate change awareness goal? Are you seriously trying to claim no one was aware of climate change until some people started blocking the M25 to shout about oil? There are literally world political summits on climate change. There's a fecking plethora of legislation, reports, studies, action plans etc. related directly to climate change. There is an act of parliament called "The Climate change Act". The weather has literally changed due to it. You'd have to be living under a rock, on the moon, to not be aware and concerned that its a thing. Its also a big underlying factor to the current energy price crisis since renewable energy supply (for the UK at least) is generally unaffected by foreign policies or which country is fighting which, and if you dig just a tiny bit you'll find a big government report projecting that wind energy will be the cheapest and most efficient within the next 10 years.

If these people are genuinely concerned about saving the planet and want to influence political polling, policies, etc. as you are suggesting, and are so determined to be specifically caught up on oil, why don't they get a bit smarter and target the oil suppliers which a) might actually make a difference to oil supply and b) doesn't involve going to war with every single person in the country.

Your argument is completely flawed and makes no basic sense. If you want to influence voting and polling etc. You have to positively influence the people who vote, which is everyone. Doing this alao gains you more supporters, and members, and makes you stronger. If your method of gaining support from everyone, is to attack everyone, you've probably made a wrong turn somewhere. You also need to have a goal or cause which can be reflected in political policy. Otherwise its impossible to have any political influence other than in policies or legislation aimed at shutting you up (which btw is exactly what has happened with the new police bill aimed at stopping people like extinction rebellion).

You don't need someone on morning TV trying to explain the science behind wind farms, or the projection of resource vs current and projected population, in order to gain awareness or support, but what you do need is to actually educate yourself on those kinds of subjects before you protest about them, so you actually have an educated clue what you want and are protesting for. I don't think this is particularly controversial as much as it is common sense. Secondly you do want to be in a position where if YOU are on Good Morking Britain, people might actually listen to you, rather than you being on there because you've deliberately made yourself a national hate figure and easy target.
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I in general agree with you mostly

but amongst your long winded response, considering Climate change has been a concern amongst scientific experts for many many decades now with extraordinarily little global action for what is actually needed…..is it any wonder we are seeing these extreme groups being formed??

Climate change isn’t a new ish thing, it’s been warned about for decades and still no “major” take by our world leaders

and here we are at a critical crossroads, act drastically because that is what the science suggests, or act slowly as though we’ve got this (we clearly haven’t)

I don’t condone the actions of stop oil or XR and those types of groups, I believe they should target the politicians and energy suppliers instead of Joe public, but I entirely understand why these desperate groups have formed

We simply aren’t doing anywhere near enough to save the habitual world we live in

Our kids will of course be able too habituate this planet when we are gone, but we are at a stage where if we don’t act now, that habitation for them won’t be fun in any capacity

the cause of these annoying climate groups is because of the blatant lack of action we so desperately require right now and have required for decades
 
noodlehair said:
Pretty sure no one is fighting FOR climate change?
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Out entire political and economic system, and most of those who benefit from it, are fighting for climate change. For decades. Burying their own data, funding fake research, lobbying, stopping bills, propaganda, funding militias against indigenous protestors... All done with the goal of making more money, emitting more carbon, and killing more people.
 
Is it just me/AUS or has COP has basically not been covered in day to day news? Morning breakfast TV...silence, midday news....silence. I think i've seen <5 news reports in day to day TV reporting.
 
berbatrick said:
Out entire political and economic system, and most of those who benefit from it, are fighting for climate change. For decades. Burying their own data, funding fake research, lobbying, stopping bills, propaganda, funding militias against indigenous protestors... All done with the goal of making more money, emitting more carbon, and killing more people.
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Its not like people want to use the cheapest fuel source possible.
 
VanDeBank said:
Its not like people want to use the cheapest fuel source possible.
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FThe "cheapest" fuel source is decided by policy. How much do you tax an oil well, how much duty do you put on imported solar panels, what is your R&D spending on wind energy, how much oil does the Gulf want to pump this year, is there a pipeline for gas, do you want to sanction Russia, should there be a tax or ban based on negative externalities like there is for DDT or CFCs, etc.

And secondary factors, do you build a massive highway network or focus on trains, is nuclear energy acceptable,....


There is no "natural" price of fuel (or any other commodity). The govt sets up a stable market (by enforcing certain property rights and imposing taxes) and thus determines what is and isn't "cheap".
 
berbatrick said:
FThe "cheapest" fuel source is decided by policy. How much do you tax an oil well, how much duty do you put on imported solar panels, what is your R&D spending on wind energy, how much oil does the Gulf want to pump this year, is there a pipeline for gas, do you want to sanction Russia, should there be a tax or ban based on negative externalities like there is for DDT or CFCs, etc.

And secondary factors, do you build a massive highway network or focus on trains, is nuclear energy acceptable,....


There is no "natural" price of fuel (or any other commodity). The govt sets up a stable market (by enforcing certain property rights and imposing taxes) and thus determines what is and isn't "cheap".
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All the policies you mentioned are leftist in nature. The government setting up 'a stable market (by enforcing certain property rights and imposing taxes' is what the government should concern themselves with.

The distinction is arbitrary and political, but let's not pretend that it isn't quite clear.
 
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