Climate Change | UN Report: Code Red for humanity

[Eriku]

If you get down to it then should we actually be turning our back on internationalism and moving back towards localism and a more simple lifestyle?

Surely capitalism is the primary driver of climate change.

Us western middle class folk are probably the worst offenders about with all the travelling and general consumption that we partake in.

On the middle and last paragraph, absolutely! I’d be all for a stronger tax or something on air travel, a lot more investment into green technology, and general consumption, as you see. If lab meat could be made efficient, that would be tremendous.

Not sure if the first paragraph is desirable or possible. Not saying it isn’t either, mind you.

 

[redshaw]

What are climate change proponents or activists view on immigration?

Western countries expanding is surely bad whoever is making the numbers be it the native population or immigrants. It means the footprint grows much more in said country, more building, less for the ecology and also means there's more people buying stuff from China and elsewhere.

Canada has said it plans on having a population of a 100 million by the end of the century (currently about 37 million). They see it as being necessary to be a country on the world stage.

 

[stepic]

What are climate change proponents or activists view on immigration?

Western countries expanding is surely bad whoever is making the numbers be it the native population or immigrants. It means the footprint grows much more in said country, more building, less for the ecology and also means there's more people buying stuff from China and elsewhere.

Canada has said it plans on having a population of a 100 million by the end of the century (currently about 37 million). They see it as being necessary to be a country on the world stage.

for most of the West the population has plateaued, and in some cases is due to decrease as baby boomers die off. Africa is where there is large increases in population expected over the coming century. i don't think that Canada reference is government policy or anything, from what I can see it's just one groups opinion on what Canada should do.

 

[nimic]

Seems very unlikely, bordering on impossible, for Canada to have a population of 100 million by 2100. They would pretty much have to match or even beat the highest growth scenario, and a lot would have to chance about Canadian society for that to be the case.

 

[Maagge]

Does anyone on here do things to help prevent climate change? Even the smallest actions can make a difference. I’ve stopped taking my car to work, cycle or walk up a massive hill. (Unless I’m on call then I need the car) Our house is trying to go as plastic free as much as possible, unfortunately some of it is un preventable. And we’ve decided not to have any more kids.

I get around on bike, foot or public transport. I'm vegetarian most of the time and try to buy products with fewer chemicals and such as much as possible. I've started planning holidays to places I can get by bus and train.

Seems very unlikely, bordering on impossible, for Canada to have a population of 100 million by 2100. They would pretty much have to match or even beat the highest growth scenario, and a lot would have to chance about Canadian society for that to be the case.

They could be banking on climate refugees.
Well that's not really funny, I guess.

 

[redshaw]

for most of the West the population has plateaued, and in some cases is due to decrease as baby boomers die off. Africa is where there is large increases in population expected over the coming century. i don't think that Canada reference is government policy or anything, from what I can see it's just one groups opinion on what Canada should do.

If you look at France Canada and the UK, they have grown about 10 million each since 1990. US has added 80 million more since 1990. The population graph for the US is a diagonal line upwards. It hasn't really plateaued to a great extent due to immigration. Spain have added 7 million.

With high pollution from western countries and all the indirect pollution they create in China for example anything you try to do like flying less or having the chop will be overtaken by the countries continued expansion.

With regards to Canada, they won't reach the goal but are aiming high and we'll see where they end up. I don't think it would be good for the environment if they get to 50, 60, 70, 80 million but great for Canadian business.

 

[4bars]

Does anyone on here do things to help prevent climate change? Even the smallest actions can make a difference. I’ve stopped taking my car to work, cycle or walk up a massive hill. (Unless I’m on call then I need the car) Our house is trying to go as plastic free as much as possible, unfortunately some of it is un preventable. And we’ve decided not to have any more kids.

I put a bit of my aprt. But lately I am starting to not care at all. After travelling a lot, none developed countries are not educated like we are on this topic. Is appalling the littering and plastic consumption. They are way more and they consume way more plastic than us. They are growing more and they will over pass the west on fuel fossil consumption in no time. is not their fault. Just too much uneducated people in the topic. Seeing in Myanmar or Guyana people in trains and shared cars eating their food in styrofoam and chuck it through the windows not even looking if it was going on the road, on a river or anything...

I realized we are doomed and it doesn't matter how we improve in the developed countries. Still I try to do my part.

Also, I despise the fact that governments tell us to do "our part" individualizing a problem that they well could end with legislating on big companies through prohibition on kinds of consumption. And those global decision would have a bigger impact.

Anyway, humanity will perish or will be hugely decimated and the world will keep spinning. And most likely I will not be alive, so...meh

 

[stepic]

If you look at France Canada and the UK, they have grown about 10 million each since 1990. US has added 80 million more since 1990. The population graph for the US is a diagonal line upwards. It hasn't really plateaued to a great extent due to immigration. Spain have added 7 million.

With high pollution from western countries and all the indirect pollution they create in China for example anything you try to do like flying less or having the chop will be overtaken by the countries continued expansion.

With regards to Canada, they won't reach the goal but are aiming high and we'll see where they end up. I don't think it would be good for the environment if they get to 50, 60, 70, 80 million but great for Canadian business.

US population growth in 1992 was 1.4%, it's now 0.7%. total numbers have gone up since 1990 yes, but the growth rate is reducing. population in the West isn't going to be a massive problem in the next 100 years, it will be the population growth in Asia and Africa that pushes us towards 10b. and as others have alluded to, the further industrialization of these continents. i tend to agree with 4bars, it's all well and good individuals making token gestures, but it's all hopelessly futile compared to what is happening and continues to happen across the globe. we are almost certainly fecked.

 

[Buster15]

Does anyone on here do things to help prevent climate change? Even the smallest actions can make a difference. I’ve stopped taking my car to work, cycle or walk up a massive hill. (Unless I’m on call then I need the car) Our house is trying to go as plastic free as much as possible, unfortunately some of it is un preventable. And we’ve decided not to have any more kids.

Yes my friend. I walk or ride as much as possible to go somewhere and if it is too far then I try to use the bus. The bus pass is a good incentive to do that.
I have had my new car, which is a Ford Fiesta 1.0 ecoboost for 14 months and have only done 2900 miles.
I have also had the latest A rated windows and frames fitted and they are much more efficient than the old windows. Last winter we used 12% less energy.
Every bit counts.

 

[Maagge]

I put a bit of my aprt. But lately I am starting to not care at all. After travelling a lot, none developed countries are not educated like we are on this topic. Is appalling the littering and plastic consumption. They are way more and they consume way more plastic than us. They are growing more and they will over pass the west on fuel fossil consumption in no time. is not their fault. Just too much uneducated people in the topic. Seeing in Myanmar or Guyana people in trains and shared cars eating their food in styrofoam and chuck it through the windows not even looking if it was going on the road, on a river or anything...

I realized we are doomed and it doesn't matter how we improve in the developed countries. Still I try to do my part.

Also, I despise the fact that governments tell us to do "our part" individualizing a problem that they well could end with legislating on big companies through prohibition on kinds of consumption. And those global decision would have a bigger impact.

Anyway, humanity will perish or will be hugely decimated and the world will keep spinning. And most likely I will not be alive, so...meh

We're not seriously gonna put this at the door of people who emit way less CO2 per capita than us because they litter, are we?

I agree that it's incredibly shitty (but par for the course) that politicians are trying to put this on the individual.

 

[Stookie]

Yes my friend. I walk or ride as much as possible to go somewhere and if it is too far then I try to use the bus. The bus pass is a good incentive to do that.
I have had my new car, which is a Ford Fiesta 1.0 ecoboost for 14 months and have only done 2900 miles.
I have also had the latest A rated windows and frames fitted and they are much more efficient than the old windows. Last winter we used 12% less energy.
Every bit counts.

You’re right, every bit does count. Even if it seems futile all these small bits together make a big change. (My brother wondered why I pick plastic litter up when we go walking, he said it’s futile really so disagreed) We’ve got to keep trying. All of us. We’re all part of this. I’ve just read in the news this week that Britain has produced electricity for two week without using any coal! First time since the 1800’s. It’s a start.

 

[Buster15]

You’re right, every bit does count. Even if it seems futile all these small bits together make a big change. (My brother wondered why I pick plastic litter up when we go walking, he said it’s futile really so disagreed) We’ve got to keep trying. All of us. We’re all part of this. I’ve just read in the news this week that Britain has produced electricity for two week without using any coal! First time since the 1800’s. It’s a start.

Man after my own heart.
I was listening to a radio discussion about Trump and his climate change policy and someone said that he will have to answer to the American people.
That is completely wrong. He should have to answer to everyone because the American CO2 output is affecting the whole world.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Does anyone on here do things to help prevent climate change? Even the smallest actions can make a difference. I’ve stopped taking my car to work, cycle or walk up a massive hill. (Unless I’m on call then I need the car) Our house is trying to go as plastic free as much as possible, unfortunately some of it is un preventable. And we’ve decided not to have any more kids.

Mostly walk or cycle, eat vegan at home (i.e. I'll have meat when I'm at a restaurant although trying to cut back), have a green energy tariff, bought a soda stream to cut back on plastic bottle waste from fizzy drinks (and trying to cut back on that too and drink more water).

Think the worst thing we do is to have a Diesel car, but it's a hand me down and we can't afford to get anything more economical at the moment.

 

[4bars]

We're not seriously gonna put this at the door of people who emit way less CO2 per capita than us because they litter, are we?

I agree that it's incredibly shitty (but par for the course) that politicians are trying to put this on the individual.

As I said, they will eventually catch up as they increase production and the west not only produces for their internal market but as well for those countries. So what it matters is not the production end but the consumption end. Also, iF a country like Malta reduces his CO2 emissions from 15 to 4, what it matters if India increases from 4 to 4.1?

As I said I am not blaming any country, consumption and recycling education is simply not there and what it matters is the absolute consumption and countries that will develop, will not restrain their emissions because they produce as cheap as they can and they don't have the same technology as we can access or at least at the same price. And they have way more people

The west will continue lowering the emissions per capita, but the least developed countries will keep increasing it and they are much more people.

And by my own observation, I was aming more at plastic consumption and how they treat their residues, that is a very important part as well for our enviroment. Is what I can really observe. and is not only, again the plastic consumption per capita, but the absolute and inside that, the most important is how you deal with your plastic waste. And you can see it in this link:

https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution

As you can see, yes, the west consumes more per capita. But in absolute terms, the situation evens out because countries least developed, have more people. But what it matters the most is the graph "plastic waste inadequately managed. Most of the most developed countries have a 0% in this regard. India (85%) China (74%) Indonesia (81%) Pakistan (86%) are number 1,2,4 and 5 in population. We simply can't win this war.

In the end is the developed fault. And blaming the least developed countries for a wanting to develop the same way the most developed countries had being doing for decades polluting the planet would be very unfair. But I am not blaming anyone here. Just humanity. I am just saying that IMO it is to late and that as much effort the developed countries wants to do, the majority of the world is not educated on this matter and simply will pollute and consume more

 

[hungrywing]

You have not made any scientific points. You're the person posting rhetoric. Everything I posted about the sun dominating climate change is settled science.

The mere fact that you used the phrase 'settled science' exposes the limits of your ability.

Go away. The topic is climate change not:

You explain why you think the sun does not dominate climate change.

The fact that you didn't recognize that you were being given an opportunity to elaborate on your previous postings in the vein of ''oh this person is giving me a chance to talk about E=MC^2 isn't E=MC^2" speaks volumes re your ability. The fact that you either failed to recognize someone offering you the opportunity to further 'explain why you think the sun dominates climate change', or that you were not able to do so further does the same. The fact that you didn't recognize someone not claiming that "the sun does not dominate climate change" but instead offering you a chance to expand while everyone else was attacking your opinion is extremely telling to put it lightly.

Again, what you should take away from this is merely regarding your ability. It is absolutely possible that the current wave of 'anthropogenic climate change' is a function of pure chance.

 

[lynchie]

As I said, they will eventually catch up as they increase production and the west not only produces for their internal market but as well for those countries. So what it matters is not the production end but the consumption end. Also, iF a country like Malta reduces his CO2 emissions from 15 to 4, what it matters if India increases from 4 to 4.1?

As I said I am not blaming any country, consumption and recycling education is simply not there and what it matters is the absolute consumption and countries that will develop, will not restrain their emissions because they produce as cheap as they can and they don't have the same technology as we can access or at least at the same price. And they have way more people

The west will continue lowering the emissions per capita, but the least developed countries will keep increasing it and they are much more people.

And by my own observation, I was aming more at plastic consumption and how they treat their residues, that is a very important part as well for our enviroment. Is what I can really observe. and is not only, again the plastic consumption per capita, but the absolute and inside that, the most important is how you deal with your plastic waste. And you can see it in this link:

https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution

As you can see, yes, the west consumes more per capita. But in absolute terms, the situation evens out because countries least developed, have more people. But what it matters the most is the graph "plastic waste inadequately managed. Most of the most developed countries have a 0% in this regard. India (85%) China (74%) Indonesia (81%) Pakistan (86%) are number 1,2,4 and 5 in population. We simply can't win this war.

In the end is the developed fault. And blaming the least developed countries for a wanting to develop the same way the most developed countries had being doing for decades polluting the planet would be very unfair. But I am not blaming anyone here. Just humanity. I am just saying that IMO it is to late and that as much effort the developed countries wants to do, the majority of the world is not educated on this matter and simply will pollute and consume more

I'm a little bit wary of that data on inadequately managed waste. I wonder how it accounts for the waste that western countries have been dumping in south-east asia (see e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/b6bd62e0-811d-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849 ) Also, it cannot be ignored that much of that plastic waste is generated by western companies.

I'm also concerned with the recent tendency to equate plastic waste with climate change. While there is a link to carbon emissions from plastic production, essentially they're different issues. Plastic packaging can indeed help mitigate climate change in some ways - reducing the weight of packaging reduces transport emissions, improving shelf-lives reduces food waste, etc.

 

[4bars]

I'm a little bit wary of that data on inadequately managed waste. I wonder how it accounts for the waste that western countries have been dumping in south-east asia (see e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/b6bd62e0-811d-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849 ) Also, it cannot be ignored that much of that plastic waste is generated by western companies.

I'm also concerned with the recent tendency to equate plastic waste with climate change. While there is a link to carbon emissions from plastic production, essentially they're different issues. Plastic packaging can indeed help mitigate climate change in some ways - reducing the weight of packaging reduces transport emissions, improving shelf-lives reduces food waste, etc.

Well, I just added this link to reinforce my own observation around the world. And you are right Emissions is the main cause of climate change, though plastic is a hazard to the environment and wildlife. For me is another leg of the table. Also is a reflection on how uneducated you are. You will not fight to lower the emissions, or you will behave accordingly with your lifestyle to pick up more the bike or walk or picking cars with lower emissions if you behave nastly on how you treat your own residues like plastic. If you throw away your styrofoam container whereever it suits you better into the while through the window, I don't expect you to be conscious about emissions.

Another leg of the table is Meat consumption. Countries that are developing will consume more an more meat. Much more that the most deveopled countries will stop eating. That means deforestation that will cause less CO2 purified to O2 and the emissions of methane from cattle will increase the emissions more and more.
And again, is responsible consumption

In Conclusion and only MY OPINION: The most developed countries are the biggest culprits of the state of the world. Some people try to change it, but IMO is futile, because the more development of the least developed countries will Overdue any effort that we might do. They will consume way more that we will stop consuming as they are way more and unfortunately, they are mostly uneducated in this matter, therefore unaware of the real situation and their society is not impregnated on how to behave in this regards.

 

[Stookie]

I'm a little bit wary of that data on inadequately managed waste. I wonder how it accounts for the waste that western countries have been dumping in south-east asia (see e.g. https://www.ft.com/content/b6bd62e0-811d-11e9-9935-ad75bb96c849 ) Also, it cannot be ignored that much of that plastic waste is generated by western companies.

I'm also concerned with the recent tendency to equate plastic waste with climate change. While there is a link to carbon emissions from plastic production, essentially they're different issues. Plastic packaging can indeed help mitigate climate change in some ways - reducing the weight of packaging reduces transport emissions, improving shelf-lives reduces food waste, etc.

Yeah the plastic trend at the moment I feel has more to do with polluting the oceans which we can plainly see. The climate change issues are definitely more related to mass us of fossil fuels. We need to be less reliant on them. But while there’s huge money for the companies involved it will not change fast. The governments need to make renewable energy cheaper for everyone to make a difference. And we need to have it everywhere. But it’s only the well off who can afford things like solar panels on their houses and electric cars etc

 

[Sweet Square]

Good/depressing thread

 

[Buster15]

Good/depressing thread

Don't agree with that at all. We have a lovely detached house in Bristol and we are fortunate to have a big garden with lawns and mature trees.
We also recycle as much as possible and have a water meter so are careful what we use.
Our daughter lives in a flat. No garden and no recycling facilities.
They also don't have a water meter and give their young children very deep baths most days.

 

[berbatrick]

Good/depressing thread

The Feb 21 2019 interview here talks about it: http://www.leftbusinessobserver.com/Radio.html

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Swiping Caf lines now. Wasn't this how someone here put the challenge to him to actually prove what he believes?

 

[Maagge]

Swiping Caf lines now. Wasn't this how someone here put the challenge to him to actually prove what he believes?

He posted bloody absorption spectra himself for Pete's sake.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

He posted bloody absorption spectra himself for Pete's sake.

Not to mention there's not a hope he'd actually accept a Noble prize winner's work on this, and would try to prove how wrong it was with a backwards graph.

 

[nickm]

Swiping Caf lines now. Wasn't this how someone here put the challenge to him to actually prove what he believes?

That twitter post doesn’t betray any understanding of the laws of thermodynamics and I’m inclined to put greenhouse effect deniers in the same bucket as flat earthers - life is too short to waste on people with such a titanic lack of grasp of the basics. His climate skeptic blog reads if if it’s been written by a particularly dim witted child. Just don’t waste your time.

 

[unchanged_lineup]

That twitter post doesn’t betray any understanding of the laws of thermodynamics and I’m inclined to put greenhouse effect deniers in the same bucket as flat earthers - life is too short to waste on people with such a titanic lack of grasp of the basics. His climate skeptic blog reads if if it’s been written by a particularly dim witted child. Just don’t waste your time.

Good advice I reckon. I was just curious this morning since he's seemed to have just run away from this thread entirely.

 

[Buster15]

That twitter post doesn’t betray any understanding of the laws of thermodynamics and I’m inclined to put greenhouse effect deniers in the same bucket as flat earthers - life is too short to waste on people with such a titanic lack of grasp of the basics. His climate skeptic blog reads if if it’s been written by a particularly dim witted child. Just don’t waste your time.

Many thanks, not just for posting this but for your steadfast belief in man made climate change.
Unfortunately history will will be the ultimate judge.

 

[berbatrick]

Good advice I reckon. I was just curious this morning since he's seemed to have just run away from this thread entirely.

for a while he had hidden his magnum opus from us - i could see it incognito - but now it's fully gone it seems.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[unchanged_lineup]

 

[nimic]

people who claim to be the ones who know the facts better than the actual researchers

He must have met Mark.

 

[Buster15]

While I am not surprised I still find such information completely appalling and an stain on humanity.
These banks should be truly embarrassed and ashamed of themselves and deserve to have their brand images exposed for what they are and what they are doing.
And yet, their leaders will still enjoy their undeserved lifestyles.
Parasites the lot of them.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

While I am not surprised I still find such information completely appalling and an stain on humanity.
These banks should be truly embarrassed and ashamed of themselves and deserve to have their brand images exposed for what they are and what they are doing.
And yet, their leaders will still enjoy their undeserved lifestyles.
Parasites the lot of them.

Ashamed for doing what they were created to do? Do you expect a bank to turn down money?

 

[Buster15]

Ashamed for doing what they were created to do? Do you expect a bank to turn down money?

Yes.
In future customers are going to be far more inclined to choose to do business with banks and businesses which trade ethically.
And as we are already seeing people are far more aware of the dangers of climate change.
Don't believe me. Then why are car manufacturers spending billion on non fossil fuel power systems.
And. Why are people shunning diesel engines.

 

[Redlambs]

Yes.
In future customers are going to be far more inclined to choose to do business with banks and businesses which trade ethically.

No, they will go for what they think is a better deal. As always.

And as we are already seeing people are far more aware of the dangers of climate change.

I really don't think they are.

Don't believe me. Then why are car manufacturers spending billion on non fossil fuel power systems.

Because it's smart and will end up continuing the revenue stream.

And. Why are people shunning diesel engines.

The same stupid fecking people who smelled all those fumes yet believed Diesel was great for us???

 

[Buster15]

No, they will go for what they think is a better deal. As always.



I really don't think they are.



Because it's smart and will end up continuing the revenue stream.



The same stupid fecking people who smelled all those fumes yet believed Diesel was great for us???

Your comment on car manufacturers actually supports my point.
Yes they are smart.
And yes they want to protect their income streams. BY DUMPING INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.

 

[Redlambs]

Your comment on car manufacturers actually supports my point.
Yes they are smart.
And yes they want to protect their income streams. BY DUMPING INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.

Yet you don't comment on my other points.

 

[nimic]

Yet you don't comment on my other points.

That was your only point that actually had an explanation attached, though. The other three were essentially just "I think you're wrong".

 

[Sweet Square]

Yes they are smart.

The same car companies a few years ago

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...industry-hid-the-truth-about-diesel-emissions

Dieselgate, as it became known, exploded into one of the biggest corporate scandals in history. Over almost a decade, Volkswagen acknowledged, it had embedded defeat devices in 11m cars, mostly in Europe, but about 600,000 in the US. The software detected when emissions tests were being run, and pollution controls – components inside the engine that reduce emissions, sometimes at the expense of performance or fuel consumption – worked fine under those circumstances. But outside the lab, the controls were switched off or turned way down, and NOx levels shot up as high as 40 times the legal limit. With mind-boggling gall, Volkswagen had even used the software update it was forced to carry out to improve cars’ ability to detect when they were being tested.

And, as it turned out, Volkswagen wasn’t the only one evading the law. Less flagrantly, but to similar effect, the vast majority of diesel cars were making a mockery of emissions rules. In the wake of the revelations in the US, European governments road-tested other big brands too. In Germany, testers found all but three of 53 models exceeded NOx limits, the worst by a factor of 18. In London, the testing firm Emissions Analytics found 97% of more than 250 diesel models were in violation; a quarter produced NOx at six times the limit. “As the data kept coming in, our jaws just kept dropping. Because it is just so systematic, and so widespread,” German says. “VW isn’t even in the worst half of the manufacturers.” With a few honourable exceptions, “everybody’s doing it”.

BY DUMPING INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.

Carbon emissions from energy industry rise at fastest rate since 2011

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ustry-carbon-emissions-bp-report-fossil-fuels

That level of growth in emissions represents the carbon equivalent of driving an extra 400m combustion engine cars onto the world’s roads, said Spencer Dale, BP’s chief economist.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Yes.
In future customers are going to be far more inclined to choose to do business with banks and businesses which trade ethically.
And as we are already seeing people are far more aware of the dangers of climate change.
Don't believe me. Then why are car manufacturers spending billion on non fossil fuel power systems.
And. Why are people shunning diesel engines.

Banks are just a ‘vehicle’ operating within the goals established by the current paradigm. Shaming them or their leaders for working as intended is pointless. It’s like yelling at a guard dog for barking at you.

To achieve the sea change required, you’d have to change the whole system. ‘Break the wheel,’ if you are a Game of Thrones fan...