Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane

Less remarkable than feats accomplished by men like Paul Lambert and Nigel Adkins.

But equally or more remarkable than feats achieved by men like Conte, Pochettino, Simeone, Klopp, Zidane or De Boer before they were given a break at their former or big clubs.

When will people understand that honours and achievements are hugely dependant on the club a manager has the opportunity at?
 
gav81, your defence, no idolation, of Keane is certainly robust and certainly obsessive and myopic. If you consider storming out of the Irish training camp after rowing with the management and being sent home in disgrace, to be the actions of a great captain then you prove my last observation. This isn't the only spat, as I am sure you are well aware of. Incidentally, save yourself the arduous task of cutting and pasting any further quotes in your reply as you ain't changing my mind, or others who disagree with you, any time soon.
 
But equally or more remarkable than feats achieved by men like Conte, Pochettino, Simeone, Klopp, Zidane or De Boer before they were given a break at their former or big clubs.

When will people understand that honours and achievements are hugely dependant on the club a manager has the opportunity at?
That applies to hundreds of managers. Roy Keane has zero chance of being the next Man United manager. This obsession can't be healthy.
 
Roy Keane will probably never manage United, unless he proves success elsewhere. You can't give a job to someone like that when it ultimately ended badly at Ipswich and Sunderland. You just can't - how much confidence could you possibly have of his success at our level when he hasn't been particularly successful lately.

I would say there are 3 potential types that you could hire as a United Manager and you could stand over the decision, regardless of whether it works our or not:
  1. Hire a top class, proven manager - Mourinho, Guardiola, Klopp, Conte etc. They have a great record, so you can have confidence in them. Success is not guaranteed, but their record instills confidence and belief
  2. Hire an up and coming manager or continually successful at Premiership level - for example Moyes (despite how it ended), Pocchetino, Frank de Boer, Eddie Howe etc. Depends on level of success, but you might buy into their aura, future capability, potential etc. Again, its a mechanism to believe it if you choose that approach:
  3. Hire a Giggs, Cantona, Bryan Robson etc. straight after their playing career. No managerial history, but you believe they'll be a great manager, they know the club and you want this to be core to the club's beliefs. Again its a philosophy you buy into as a club and can stand over if this is why you make it.
Point 1 and 2 are obvious but Point 3 is really a punt on belief, direction etc. But the third point only really applies if they have no negative managerial baggage or show promising potential as a manager elsewhere (lets say like Eddie Howe at Bournemouth). Roy Keane has had failures, not to say he can't still be successful in future, but you can't give the Man United role to a legend based on his current record - it would be reckless.
 
That applies to hundreds of managers.

I'm not the one using Keane's management record as a positive or negative point. It is your argument that his record means he is not a good manager. I'm only responding to that by showing it is at least comparable to the early record of other top managers.


gav81, your defence, no idolation, of Keane is certainly robust and certainly obsessive and myopic. If you consider storming out of the Irish training camp after rowing with the management and being sent home in disgrace, to be the actions of a great captain then you prove my last observation. This isn't the only spat, as I am sure you are well aware of. Incidentally, save yourself the arduous task of cutting and pasting any further quotes in your reply as you ain't changing my mind, or others who disagree with you, any time soon.

As mentioned on the thread already, I don't idolise Keane or anyone and I'm not into the whole celebrity culture. If I had to pick the men I admire the most for their professional achievements it would be Ferguson and Giggs.

Neither do I have an obsession with Keane. Ok, anyone could be forgiven for thinking that but let me explain - my obsession sits firmly with Manchester United. I'm alarmed by what has gone on at the club since Ferguson retired. Believe me, if Moyes or van Gaal had been successful, or if I thought Jose could turn it around, then Roy Keane would never have crossed my mind.

It's not about all that. It's about Manchester United appointing a manager best suited to continue Ferguson's legacy so that one day I can enjoy watching football again. That's what it's really about.

Anyhow, you are jumping from one point to the next without settling the last issue. You suggested that Keane's criticism of his teammates caused friction in the United dressing room. After reading the testimony provided from the players he criticised, can you now see that was not the case?
 
Really? Neither of those two managers have won the Championship. Odd post.
They took teams from league 1 to the Premier League in successive seasons. Keane took a team that was in the premier league the year previous and got them promoted again. Something that is done regularly. Odd post.
 
I'm not the one using Keane's management record as a positive or negative point. It is your argument that his record means he is not a good manager. I'm only responding to that by showing it is at least comparable to the early record of other top managers.




As mentioned on the thread already, I don't idolise Keane or anyone and I'm not into the whole celebrity culture. If I had to pick the men I admire the most for their professional achievements it would be Ferguson and Giggs.

Neither do I have an obsession with Keane. Ok, anyone could be forgiven for thinking that but let me explain - my obsession sits firmly with Manchester United. I'm alarmed by what has gone on at the club since Ferguson retired. Believe me, if Moyes or van Gaal had been successful, or if I thought Jose could turn it around, then Roy Keane would never have crossed my mind.

It's not about all that. It's about Manchester United appointing a manager best suited to continue Ferguson's legacy so that one day I can enjoy watching football again. That's what it's really about.

Anyhow, you are jumping from one point to the next without settling the last issue. You suggested that Keane's criticism of his teammates caused friction in the United dressing room. After reading the testimony provided from the players he criticised, can you now see that was not the case?
I'm not arguing anything. Just pointing out the facts. Or exposing myths if you will.
 
They took teams from league 1 to the Premier League in successive seasons. Keane took a team that was in the premier league the year previous and got them promoted again. Something that is done regularly. Odd post.

Keane took them from bottom of the Championship to Champions in a single season. Neither of the two managers you cite have won the championship. Unlike Keane. Odd comparison.
 
Keane took them from bottom of the Championship to Champions in a single season. Neither of the two managers you cite have won the championship. Unlike Keane. Odd comparison.
Four games of a 46 game season in. A year after they'd been in the Premier League and had more money than most of the league. Taking a team from League one to the Premier League is comfortably more impressive.
 
Why is this thread still popping up near the top? :lol:

Clearly nothing has been cleared up at all!
 
I read Keane's book 'second half' and enjoyed it.

He mentioned how he conducts himself as a manager and comes across quite simple, imo. More or less go out and play footie. But i'm under the impression that he's fair to everyone and really tries to make it a good place for all of the members.. He saw how Ferguson meant business (man management) and learned a few things from it.

Hope to see Keane back in the Premier League. Wouldn't be against it to see him managing here somewhere in the future, he loves the game and this club. One of those things which money simply can't buy.

But of course i'm happy with Mourinho, hope he's staying for years to come.
 
Bit like your agenda on Keane.

You can't even bring yourself to admit that his first season at Sunderland was a success and impressive :D fecking hell, even Fergie said it was

It's OK pal.
I share my opinion on him, just like you. Yet you continually follow me around commenting on it. I've given coherent reasons for my beliefs. You throw snide and petty remarks. He had a good first season. Getting a recently relegated team promoted is not a 'remarkable' achievement. More impressive feats have been accomplished by relative no marks.
 
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I share my opinion on him, just like you. Yet you continually follow me around commenting on it. I've given coherent reasons for my beliefs. You throw sonde and petty remarks. He had a good first season. Getting a recently relegated team promoted is not a 'remarkable' achievement. More impressive feats have been accomplished by relative no marks.

To be fair, I said you'd twist it to say Rory was wrong and you proved me right. Nowt petty about that. Just a factual statement from yours truly. Least you have now admitted he had a good first season.

Anyways, no apologies necessary, let's get on with the quiz
 
To be fair, I said you'd twist it to say Rory was wrong and you proved me right. Nowt petty about that. Just a factual statement from yours truly. Least you have now admitted he had a good first season.

Anyways, no apologies necessary, let's get on with the quiz
Which is personal rather than discussing the matter at hand. I pointed out facts. There is nothing remarkable about winning the championship after being relegated the season before. It's happened before and will likely happen again this season.

If you were half as witty as you think you are I'd join you on every forum you post on.
 
Which is personal rather than discussing the matter at hand. I pointed out facts. There is nothing remarkable about winning the championship after being relegated the season before. It's happened before and will likely happen again this season.

If you were half as witty as you think you are I'd join you on every forum you post on.

Redcafe, Fred and the Electro Harmonix forum.

You're on one, may as well join the other two.
 
Roy Keane will probably never manage United, unless he proves success elsewhere. You can't give a job to someone like that when it ultimately ended badly at Ipswich and Sunderland. You just can't - how much confidence could you possibly have of his success at our level when he hasn't been particularly successful lately.

...

Roy Keane has had failures, not to say he can't still be successful in future, but you can't give the Man United role to a legend based on his current record - it would be reckless.

Nice breakdown in your post, ronnie. I'd disagree it ended altogether badly at Ipswich and Sunderland (see post #4) – in particular I believe Keane's transformation of the latter is the reason Sunderland have remained in the Premier League ever since and you fail to credit his assistant-manager role with Ireland which has proven successful.

Notwithstanding that, what I'd really like to adress is your reason for ruling out the option of Keane at the beginning and end of your post (the bits quoted above). It is useful for comparison to look at the early records of some those often named as 'top managers' before they got an opportunity at a big club...

  • Klopp: relegated with Mainz, failed to get them promoted, got the Dortmund job.
  • Conte: sacked at Arezzo, quit leaving Atalanta in 19th position, got the Juventus job.
  • Simeone: quit every club he managed in Argentina due to poor results, left River Plate bottom of the league, 13th position with Catania, got the Ateltico job.
  • Pochettino: took Espanyol to the bottom of la Liga, got the Southampton job, finished mid-table, got the Tottenham job.
  • Enrique: took Roma to their worst league finish in the last 10 years, took Celta to 18th midway through the season before finishing 9th, got the Barcelona job.
It is interesting to note that, despite the failures, all of the above were given the opportunity to manage at the clubs where they were playing legends, and that is the reason any of them are where they are today. It is also interesting that the above are a mixture of captains, leaders and defenders/midfielders known for their high work-rate and combative approach. Zidane, Guardiola and De Boer fall into the same categories.

According to your argument, given their failures, none of those bulleted above should have been given the opportunities which followed at big clubs where they have since proven successful. I hope you can see where the logic in that falls down.

I wonder, in likeness of the above 'top managers', who is a former playing legend of Manchester United, the most successful captain in the club's history and midfield leader known for his high workrate and combative approach?

He is our version of what Conte was to Juventus,
As Simeone was to Atletico,
As Enrique was to Barcelona,
As Klopp was to Mainz,
As Pochettino was to Espanyol,
As Zidane was to Real Madrid,
As Guardiola was to Barcelona
As De Boer was to Ajax...

As Roy Keane is to Manchester United.
 
Obviously what you have said above is tongue in cheek but that's exactly it – Keane has mellowed out greatly and the 'carrot and stick' is his approach

Fair play mate you've got some good quotes there. I do think the top players need a bit more pandering than less talented players though and I have trouble envisioning Keane ever being able to handle the likes of those. Having said you've changed my mind a fair bit on him.
 
@gav81 I did not want to copy the entire post as we were heading towards some monstrous and may be confusing pages. Anyway that's not too much of a proble to go back and check your latest response.

The links you have provided were an interesting read but I just wanted to comment on few points.

I do think there is some romance attached to the idea of a team that is based on values such as personality, aura and such which is some of the reasons you think Keane would be a good candidate. Romance in football does not necessarily have to do with any one criteria IMO, it could be the longing for a style of management, the identity of who is playing and their background, the style of play, among other criteria... . That's not very important though, I think you misunderstood my line about Fergie's ability to deal with different background. I did not mean that he was nice and cuddly with them. I meant that he knew how to treat each individual differently. He had that intelligence that the best managers do have in that they can read people and know how to treat them as individual as opposed to some rulebook on how to act. It's a form of tacit knowledge that is impossible to teach or acquire and I do stand my assertion that Fergie's ability in that regard was beyond belief for the simple reason that he managed to spend close to 30 years at a club without ever losing the dressing room. He fell out with people, was right at times and petty on others but to maintain control and respect of an organisation from players and staff over 30 years is an achievement that I honestly can't think of any one else rivalling. Managers can't go 2 years before cracks start to appear and leaks start to pop up. Obviously Fergie had some help in that regard in the form of the makeup of our club especially in those early days but it still does not negate the enormity of that achievement.

You make the point that Keane can have the same aura as Fergie which I also disagree with on the basis that the respect people have for him were as player. As a manager, he is not respected and held in a high regard. Now that might be wrong, you can point to testimonies from people who worked with him or under him but reputation doesn't have to be fair, in fact, it often isn't. I just feel that Keane has too much of a reputation as an angry bitter hot head rightly or wrongly for him to be respected as a manager.

The last point on your post I wanted to clarify was that you seem to think I changed my priorities when judging a manager. I did not, I simply acknowledge that we are different. Most clubs hire coaches, we hire managers. We seem to be the only club left that hands the manager as much authority as we do, we want someone that deals with everything which is why I think in your hypothetical scenario, Keane's ability to deal with a board, owners, directors etc... is important. When I talk about my ideal qualities in a coach, I am talking about it from a point of view where the man in charge will be in charge of coaching and nothing else as I simply think it's way too risky to put all your eggs in one basket, especially if the last good basket has already retired IMO.

If I am to be presumption, your main argument for Keane as a manager is that he shares some of Fergie's traits. I have two problems with that; the first one is that I think he is too emotional for that to be true which I think you will doubtless disagree with. The second one is the most imporant in my view; those traits are not going to work now. Fergie as I stated on previous posts was a brilliant manager but not a great coach. He wasn't clueless tactically but he comes from the traditional British school of coaching where it's all about getting the basics right and looking for players to help you win games through qualities such as pace, power, bravery, etc ... . His attacking football was the result of a risk taking mentality an an alpha personality as opposed to innovative coaching. This was not a problem in the least in English football in the '90s and early '00s because of the simply reason that almost everybody else was the same and we happened to have the best players as well as smartest manager in terms of vision and motivation. Once clubs got richer and tactics developed and teams became more structured however, our team got divided into two era; Ronaldo and post Ronaldo. With Ronaldo we still could produce thrilling football through his sheer brilliant alone but post Ronaldo, you began to see how our tactical limitations meant that we simply couldn't produce the same type of dominant football anymore. It was the start of the now famed zombie football, the tight 1/0s and disappoint head to heads against domestic and European elites.

It is for these reasons that I think what worked in the '90s is not going to work now, how can it? Football like everything else in life evolves with time and I think Keane's main selling point is not one that makes a massive difference in the modern game.
 
gav81, if the issue was about United and not Roy Kean then you certainly fooled me. Especially considering the title of this thread and all your posts in it. Anyway, better things I am away to put my bollocks in a blender
I'm not the one using Keane's management record as a positive or negative point. It is your argument that his record means he is not a good manager. I'm only responding to that by showing it is at least comparable to the early record of other top managers.




As mentioned on the thread already, I don't idolise Keane or anyone and I'm not into the whole celebrity culture. If I had to pick the men I admire the most for their professional achievements it would be Ferguson and Giggs.

Neither do I have an obsession with Keane. Ok, anyone could be forgiven for thinking that but let me explain - my obsession sits firmly with Manchester United. I'm alarmed by what has gone on at the club since Ferguson retired. Believe me, if Moyes or van Gaal had been successful, or if I thought Jose could turn it around, then Roy Keane would never have crossed my mind.

It's not about all that. It's about Manchester United appointing a manager best suited to continue Ferguson's legacy so that one day I can enjoy watching football again. That's what it's really about.

Anyhow, you are jumping from one point to the next without settling the last issue. You suggested that Keane's criticism of his teammates caused friction in the United dressing room. After reading the testimony provided from the players he criticised, can you now see that was not the case?


Well, I never! After reading the thread of the title and all your posts, I had the impression it was about Roy Kean. Silly me, I must be a right idiot. And all along it was about you "being able to enjoy watching football again."
Well, as I am unable to grasp the meaning of
this thread perhaps it would be better if I left it.
 
Fair play mate you've got some good quotes there. I do think the top players need a bit more pandering than less talented players though and I have trouble envisioning Keane ever being able to handle the likes of those. Having said you've changed my mind a fair bit on him.

I don't like to think of it as changing anyone's mind because I try to respect everyone's opinion – some love Keane, some hate him. I suppose it's just putting some less well reported information and widely held views out here, making a case, then it's up to anyone if they think it makes sense and want to take it into account or not.

About what you said above, I would argue it's the other way around; top players are likely to possess more quality, dedication and work-rate which are attributes Keane admires. Any who don't – less talented players - will be quickly out of his plans. One of Keane's former Sunderland and Ipswich players explains it: -

“I think he will be more successful the higher up he is. He demands the standards of Manchester United and when people don't match those standards, he seems to have a problem.

“He needs to be working at a higher level to be successful. If he tries again in the Championship or possibly lower, I'm not sure he will get what he wants from the players.”


~Jon Stead​


Apart from that, it shouldn't be forgotten that Keane very successfully captained a whole Manchester United dressing-room of top players both young and old from around the world for over seven years...

“He (Keane) is the player that has the most influence in a dressing room that I have ever seen.

I have been in many dressing rooms and with very important players but I remember reaching half time in games and it was only him that spoke, the one that made the speech.

Sir Alex Ferguson was to one side and he (Keane) spoke. I am still profoundly affected by him.”


~Gerard Pique


“Roy Keane's charisma, his personality on and off the pitch - he's a gentleman.

“In training he'd explain things in a good way - and sometimes in a bad way, because it mattered.”


~Diego Forlan​


Favourite played that you played with at Manchester United?

“Roy Keane”

What was your former team-mate Roy Keane's greatest strength?


“Leadership!”

~Ruud van Nistelrooy​


Even the most talented player of them all: -

“I had a good relationship with Keane. I was very pleased that a great player with a big name in football told the manager to sign me.”

“[Keane was] always screaming to me: "Cristiano! Pass the ball!"

“But it was good! At the end of the day, I feel happy because I learned a lot from them.”


~Cristiano Ronaldo​


Cristiano has played under some great managers: -

ronaldo-ferguson_782576c.jpg

Cristiano-Ronaldo-618309.jpg

158617-large.jpg

ronaldo-zidane-real-madrid_3415304.jpg


His relationship with Keane is no different: -

101726.jpg


Of course those were all players Keane captained so I will finish with one Keane managed, one of the most talented, in my opinion, being former Tottenham, Aston Villa and England striker, Darren Bent: -

“Personally speaking he was fantastic for me. He always made me feel good and he always put in some good finishing sessions. I can’t speak highly enough of him and for me he was fantastic.

“If you want to improve as a player and get better you need people to tell you the truth. And he was definitely one for that.

“I think he got on with the players. I think what people most respected about him is that he told it as it was, to be fair.

“And if you weren’t playing well he would tell you. He wouldn’t hide from the fact and yeah as I said personally he was fantastic for me. I had a lot of contact with him on different aspects of the game and I’m sorry to see him go.

“Obviously we wish him all the best and hopefully he does well in whatever venture he does next.”


~Darren Bent​


In all I would say that worries of Keane not forming good relationships with the type of top players we want at United are media driven fears and unfounded.
 
I swear I've seen the same quotes multiple time pumping up Roy Keane.
 
Do we still give out an award for agenda poster of the year?
 
All the quotes in the world won't change Keane's chance of getting the United job, which is clearly feck-all given he fell out with Fergie and was shite at Ipswich.

Past legends are usually afforded a bit of grace in these situations, and rightly so in my opinion, but there's no way he'll be considered unless he's tests himself somewhere else and does a bloody good job of it.

Don't get me wrong I am enjoying all the quotes though.
 
Cristiano has played under some great managers: -

ronaldo-ferguson_782576c.jpg

Cristiano-Ronaldo-618309.jpg

158617-large.jpg

ronaldo-zidane-real-madrid_3415304.jpg


His relationship with Keane is no different: -

101726.jpg

Well that's me convinced. Also, you can tell by the look on Ronaldo's face that he likes Keane the most. Probably because Keane is a better manager than the rest of those noobs.


(didn't mean to make fun of you gav, but it's the middle of the night and I'm bored as hell. I'm actually quite impressed with your devotion to this man.)
 
@Zlaatan :lol: It was just in response to the question of how Keane would get on with top players. Obviously it's not about managerial ability other than that the picture shows the good relationship and respect shared between Ronaldo and Keane and that it doesn't appear different to his relationship with any of his managers.
 
At this rate, those Chuck Norris memes will have to be turned into Keane ones.
 
I think you misunderstood my line about Fergie's ability to deal with different background. I did not mean that he was nice and cuddly with them. I meant that he knew how to treat each individual differently. He had that intelligence that the best managers do have in that they can read people and know how to treat them as individual as opposed to some rulebook on how to act. It's a form of tacit knowledge that is impossible to teach or acquire and I do stand my assertion that Fergie's ability in that regard was beyond belief for the simple reason that he managed to spend close to 30 years at a club without ever losing the dressing room. He fell out with people, was right at times and petty on others but to maintain control and respect of an organisation from players and staff over 30 years is an achievement that I honestly can't think of any one else rivalling. Managers can't go 2 years before cracks start to appear and leaks start to pop up.

I absolutely agree with everything you say about Fergie above and as well as his man-management skills you touch on his control and discipline which provided additional assurance that he never lost the dressing room (Stam, Beckham, Keane and Nistelrooy were all high-profile casualties of that and Rooney could well have gone the same way if Fergie had stayed on).

Of course, Keane also has strong man-management skills (see testimony over the past couple of pages) and is aware that players are individuals along with having that element of control and discipline required: -

“Yeah, of course, yeah. Obviously different players have different traits.

“How you speak to them, who you shout at, who you don’t.”


~Keane


“But the really big thing Roy has done with the club is show the fans we had the right discipline and attitude.

...

“He signed three players in his first January transfer window and three weeks after that, they were late for the team bus for a game at Barnsley. Roy sent them home and played three youngsters instead. We won the game and everyone got the message.”


~Niall Quinn, Sunderland​


I do agree that cracks and leaks seem to be more commonplace these days but that is not an issue confined to Keane. The dressing room cracks and leaks that have followed Mourinho from Real Mardrid to Chelsea and now to United (based on today's reports) are evidence of that.


The last point on your post I wanted to clarify was that you seem to think I changed my priorities when judging a manager. I did not, I simply acknowledge that we are different. Most clubs hire coaches, we hire managers. We seem to be the only club left that hands the manager as much authority as we do, we want someone that deals with everything which is why I think in your hypothetical scenario, Keane's ability to deal with a board, owners, directors etc... is important. When I talk about my ideal qualities in a coach, I am talking about it from a point of view where the man in charge will be in charge of coaching and nothing else as I simply think it's way too risky to put all your eggs in one basket, especially if the last good basket has already retired IMO.

Fair enough, so the point from my last post applies, when did Keane ever have a bust-up with owners, chairmen, staff, etc? Since starting his management career he has never had a Fergie vs John Magnier or Jose vs Eva Carneiro episode. As above, this is not confined to Keane - not sure why we should single him out on this issue.


If I am to be presumption, your main argument for Keane as a manager is that he shares some of Fergie's traits. I have two problems with that; the first one is that I think he is too emotional for that to be true which I think you will doubtless disagree with. The second one is the most imporant in my view; those traits are not going to work now. Fergie as I stated on previous posts was a brilliant manager but not a great coach. He wasn't clueless tactically but he comes from the traditional British school of coaching where it's all about getting the basics right and looking for players to help you win games through qualities such as pace, power, bravery, etc ... . His attacking football was the result of a risk taking mentality an an alpha personality as opposed to innovative coaching. This was not a problem in the least in English football in the '90s and early '00s because of the simply reason that almost everybody else was the same and we happened to have the best players as well as smartest manager in terms of vision and motivation. Once clubs got richer and tactics developed and teams became more structured however, our team got divided into two era; Ronaldo and post Ronaldo. With Ronaldo we still could produce thrilling football through his sheer brilliant alone but post Ronaldo, you began to see how our tactical limitations meant that we simply couldn't produce the same type of dominant football anymore. It was the start of the now famed zombie football, the tight 1/0s and disappoint head to heads against domestic and European elites.

Your presumption is correct – Keane is a match to all the most important character traits which made Ferguson the manager he was and I have provided a lot of evidence to that end - even Ferguson says he saw himself in Keane. I don't know why you think Keane is too emotional in comparison to a manager well known for ranting at referees, opposition managers and the press, giving his players the hair-dryer treatment, kicking boots, chairs and bottles around the dressing-room, etc. As Keane mentions in his book, the only time he let his anger get the better of him in his management career was the incident with the Reading backroom staff but I think that was a normal human reaction to severe provocation and even then Keane will have learnt from it.

Again I agree with your comments on Fergie above, in particular the bolded text – and it sounds absolutely fecking brilliant to me: getting the basics right, pace, power, bravery, attacking football, risk taking, an alpha personality – oh yes, that is what United should be. On the other hand, your suggestion that, in later years, this approach did not produce dominant football and... 'zombie football'... I have no idea what you are talking about. It was van Gaal that produced 'zombie football' with his overload of tactics to the players that ruined their natural game. The way I saw it is that United were successful and entertaining to the end of Ferguson's tenure and the records and stats support that also. I'll take that every time over the errr, 'innovative coaching' that has overseen the club's slide the past two-plus seasons.

With that, we have gone full circle back to discussion on the 'Origins of Our on Field Problems: Ferguson's Final Years vs Post Ferguson Years' thread.
 
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