Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane

gav81

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Roy Keane; the most successful captain in the history of Manchester United.

He was our driving force, the heart and soul of United from the mid 90s-00s, the most influential presence in the dressing room during their time together according to Ferguson, leaving a work ethic both on and off the pitch that would endure long after his departure.

7 Premier League titles during his 12 seasons at the club, including two domestic league and cup doubles and the famous treble, none of which the club had achieved before or since (no, we have never won the league and FA Cup in a season outside of Keane's time).

All this and still over the years I have seen him criticised and misrepresented again and again by the media and even our own supporters on forums across the internet. In my opinion this does a club legend a disservice. As someone who did so much for the club I feel that United supporters should draw ranks around our own and set the record straight where need be.

For this reason I would like to address some of the myths most often heard around Roy Keane. I'll start with the first five and maybe add some more. Please feel free to discuss/add your own...

Edit: new myth added to post #187 False: Keane has no man-management skills
 
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False: Keane left United due to criticism of his teammates on MUTV

The common held belief is that after a 4-1 loss to Middlesbrough, Keane gave an interview to MUTV where he criticised a number of players, specifically van der Sar, O'Shea, Ferdinand, Fletcher, Richardson and Alan Smith. The criticism was such that Ferguson had to pull the video from being aired and subsequently terminated Keane's contract with the club mid-season due to his destabilising influence on the dressing room.

Whilst it is true that Ferguson told Keane, “that interview was a disgrace, a joke. Criticising your teammates. And wanting that to go out”, the fact is, when done in private, Ferguson didn't mind Keane's criticism of teammates: -

“If Roy Keane thought you weren't pulling your weight he would be right on top of you, straight away. Many players faced his wrath for committing that crime and there would be no place to hide from him. I never felt that was a bad aspect of his character.”

And let's not forget that the video was never released and Keane remained very much a part of the first team following the incident.

Furthermore, the players named were not offended by the comments which Keane had discussed with them and have since given glowing references of Keane's influence. Alan Smith even credited Keane's MUTV criticism for the much improved 1-0 victory over Chelsea in the very next game with another of the players he singled out, Fletcher, scoring the winning goal.

So now we have established that Ferguson didn't eject Keane on the basis of the video, that the players were not offended, if anything their performances improved and that it was mostly a media driven furore over a few leaked excerpts of the interview, why did Ferguson terminate Keane's contract?

The truth is there had been a building tension and deteriorating relationship between Keane, Ferguson and his assistant, Carlos Queiroz, for some time...

From Keane's perspective, there had been a lowering of standards with the club finishing 3rd in the previous two seasons and to be fair, at that time, he was playing alongside the likes of Bellion, Miller and Gibson. Phil Neville, Nicky Butt and David Beckham had recently left, Vidic and Evra were yet to join and Ronaldo was far from the finished article, having scored only 15 goals in 90 games up to that point. Keane felt the Rock of Gibraltar legal battle was not in the interest of United and that Ferguson had not done enough to prevent the slide. He also felt mistreated and disrespected by Quieroz during training sessions. It is fair to say that Keane, winner that he is, was feeling a lot of frustration at that point.

From Ferguson and Quieroz's perspective, there was an issue that Keane had chosen his own accommodation during the pre-season tour of Portugal, he challenged the training methods in a player meeting and they were having trouble getting Keane to adhere to a more restrained deep-lying midfield role despite his increasing number of injuries.

The killer blow, the nail in the coffin, the coup de grace to Keane's United career came in a meeting of the management and players where, against the backdrop above, in front of the team, Ferguson called the interview a disgrace and invited the players to join his condemnation of Keane, and Queiroz then questioned Keane's loyalty.

Honestly, what did they think would happen? My god, you do not question Roy Keane's integrity and loyalty and not expect fireworks. With all the heart, soul and winning mentallity that had driven United's success for over a decade, Keane erupted and tore into the pair of them in front of everyone.

That is what led Ferguson to state, “Roy absolutely overstepped the line”. That is why Keane later accepted his temperament had cost him. It was that particular confrontation in the meeting, not Keane's criticism of his teammates, that led Ferguson to push Keane out of the door.

Avoidable? Keane wouldn't be the force he was had he accepted United's decline. Ferguson wouldn't be the manager he was had he accepted Keane's defiance. In the end, an unavoidable clash of two hugely influential winning personalities who each wanted the best for United. Yet as we all know, no one contests Ferguson's control and it was destined to end only one way.
 
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False: Keane and Ferguson fell out due to their acrimonious parting of ways at United.

The commonly held belief is that Keane and Ferguson have had a longstanding feud ever since the events described above.

The fact is, Keane and Ferguson have both said they quickly moved on. When Keane went straight into management the following season, Ferguson loaned him Evans and Miller, the two were on speaking terms and even shared a post-match drink together after Keane's Sunderland played United on Boxing Day, 2007.

Ferguson even complimented Keane at the time: -

“Roy has the wherewithall to be a top class manager. Some people can’t make decisions. Roy can. He is a good decision maker.”

It wasn't until 6 years after Keane's departure from United, late in 2011, that the feud ignited in the public sphere. Keane had turned down an invitation to Ferguson's 25th anniversary celebration and in his punditry role for ITV had criticised United after a Champions League loss to Basel (justifiably?) which saw us eliminated at the group stage. Ferguson responded by labelling Keane a “television critic” and questioned his management career. Next thing Keane revealed that United had threatened him with legal action back in 2008 for comments he had made regarding his departure from United.

The tit for tat rumbled on from there – their pride not allowing them to let it go – culminating with Ferguson's revealing autobiography which prompted Keane to state, “he doesn't know the meaning of the word [loyalty]”.

As a United supporter, I would like nothing more than to see these two club legends shake hands and bury the hatchett before it is too late. It is promising that each have complimented the other in recent years. Watch this space.
 
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False: Keane has a poor record in management, even Ferguson said he failed.

First let's see what Ferguson said of Keane in his autobiography: -

“As his career in coaching developed, it became apparent that he needed to spend money to achieve results. He was always looking to buy players. I didn't feel Roy had the patience to build a team.”

So we can see there is something intended as criticism but not to the extent of stating that Keane had/has failed.

But don't those comments seem slightly hypocritical coming from Ferguson, a manager who broke the British transfer record three times and spent hundreds of millions of pounds on players? Ferguson bought practically a whole team before he won his first league title at United. Not that it's a negative – there were many fantastic signings who contributed to our success.

It is true Ferguson blended this with youth, but then Keane was not adverse to promoting youth either. In two and a half seasons at Sunderland, Keane promoted 13 players from the youth system to the first team squad, the most notable being Jack Colback (18) and Jordan Henderson (18). He took on loan young players from United including Jonny Evans (18) and Danny Simpson (20). He signed Anthony Stokes (18) and Paul McShane (21) whilst providing opportunities to young players already at Sunderland like Grant Leadbitter (20).

The implication is that Ferguson's comments are a little disingenuous and actually a part of the tit for tat back and forth with Keane at the time.

Onto Keane's management record, it is better than some believe...

The season prior to Keane's appointment, Sunderland had won only 3(!) out of 38 games in the Premier League. They had needed extra-time to overcome Cheltenham Town in the League Cup and were knocked out of the FA Cup by Brentford. Sunderland were relegated with a record low points total.

The following season, Sunderland were knocked out of the League Cup early by Bury and launched their Championship campaign with four consecutive defeats to leave the club bottom of the table. This was a team of serial losers.

Then Keane arrived and the transformation was instant and dramatic...

Sunderland won their next three games against West Brom, Derby and Leeds. The team climbed the table throughout the season, going on a 17-game unbeaten run to eventually finish as champions with Keane named Championship 'Manager of the Year'.

The Premier League proved more difficult, as is the case for any promoted side, but Keane's transformation of the squad secured Sunderland's status in the league where they have remained to the present day. From Championship relegation contenders to a stable Premier League side – Keane is not given the credit he deserves for this.

Keane's next job at Ipswich did not go so well, but what has anyone achieved at Ipswich in recent times? Even then, Keane was beginning a transformation of the squad and his second season started well as Ipswich over-achieved by going on a great run in the League Cup to meet Arsenal in the semi-final.

It is difficult to judge Keane in his role as Villa assistant-manager as his time there was short and divided with Republic of Ireland duties. What we know is that the manager, Paul Lambert, spoke highly of Keane's contribution and players including Darren Bent and Jack Grealish credit Keane with developing their game. Also note that Villa have been in free-fall since Keane's departure.

In Keane's role as Ireland assistant-manager, Martin O'Niell and the players have praised his contribution on a number of occasions. Obviously Ireland do not have the most talented squad but Keane has stated his mandate: “My job is to motivate players, to push people and try and get them to another level.”

Then we see Ireland qualify for Euro 2016 with a 1-1 draw in Germany before defeating the World Champions 1-0 at home (it wasn't a second-string side the Germans put out either)! Ireland defeated Bosnia-Herzegovina over two legs to reach the Euro finals where a 1-0 victory over Italy secured passage from a tough group before giving host nation France a scare in the last 16. There is no doubt Ireland have punched above their weight, so how is Keane doing in his mandate?

Overall, Keane's management record is far from poor. It has been very reasonable considering the teams where Keane has had a management role and is a match to the likes of Conte, Pochettino or Simeone before they were presented the opportunity at bigger clubs.
 
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False: Keane is bitter toward United and critices the club at every opportunity.

It is true that in his punditry role for ITV Keane has often criticised United's performances, amongst others, the 2011 Champions League exit against Basel and last season's Europa League exit to Liverpool. Then, who doesn't criticise our poor performances? With Keane known for his honesty and no-nonesense approach, why should anyone assume he criticises these defeats out of bitterness?

Yes Keane has also criticised Ferguson but as we have seen, that is a two-way street and a personal issue between them, separate to his feelings toward United.

In any case, due to the media coverage, anyone would think this type of criticism of United is all Keane has presented. We don't hear so much about the positive comments, the compliments and praise: -

“Man United mean a lot to me, despite my disagreement with the manager.

“I loved everything about United — the badge, the history, the pressures, the supporters, Old Trafford.

“Everything about it I loved.

“Going back doesn’t keep me awake at night. But you never know what’s around the corner.”

~Roy Keane, October 2014


“Twelve and a half years, to work under one manager. I don’t want people to think I’m bitter and twisted towards Alex Ferguson, but I’m obviously going to say I’m disappointed with his comments, what he said about me,”

“I’m not for one minute playing down what he achieved. Absolutely amazing.

“I played under good managers, bad managers. The top managers get a feel for the group, they know what you need. Whatever Alex Ferguson’s strengths and weaknesses, that was by far his biggest strength.

“Me and Alex Ferguson, we had the same type of traits, of what Manchester United was about. I think that probably created the problems towards to the end. We almost knew we were coming to the end.”

“I thought I knew what the group might need, that we didn’t need a big team talk, it was Tottenham at home. I thought please don’t go on about Tottenham, we all know what Tottenham is about, they are nice and tidy but we’ll fecking do them. He came in and said: ‘Lads, it’s Tottenham’, and that was it. Brilliant.”

“It could have been a European semi-final, it could have been Leeds away, it could have been a home League Cup tie – Alex Ferguson always had a feel of the group.”

~Roy Keane, October 2014


“I fell out with Ferguson towards the end but I had 12 and a half great years working with him and I wouldn’t swap it for anything.

“It was brilliant.”

~Roy Keane, May 2015


So the next time we hear a criticism from Keane, remember his feelings toward United and consider that maybe he is only being honest. Perhaps even, Keane's 'to the point' assessments are the fastest way to finding improvement (he did say United need more 'character' and that Zlatan would be a great addition after all - quite right)!
 
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False: Keane is a negative influence on the dressing room.

Here is where the sensationalist media have really attempted to do a number on Roy to sell a story. That Keane has tolerated some of what has been written about him and remained in the management game shows his resilience.

Sure there have been negative comments during his time at Sunderland and Ipswich, though predictably they are from players Keane didn't rate and/or were shipped out of the clubs. And these are in the minority compared to the positive comments which are not so widely reported.

Sunderland...

“I have always said in the past, Roy has been a huge part of me getting my chance as a footballer." said the former England Under-21s captain.

“He gave me my debut at Sunderland and had a huge impact over my career. So I have got a lot of thanks to him for that.

“I can never really repay him for that, he started my career as a professional footballer, I learnt a lot from him while I was at Sunderland."

“To work under him was amazing. I think he could see how much I wanted to be a footballer, how hard I worked and obviously I hoped he would see a little bit of quality in there too.”

~Jordan Henderson


"I have a lot of respect for our old boss Roy.

"He was a nice man. He had a positive impact on every player at the club, he had an aura about him - he's Roy Keane!

"Someone like that is always going to be missed. My game improved under him and it continues to – hopefully."

~Grant Leadbitter


“He took over the club when they were bottom of the Championship and then finished comfortably in the Premier League. That's not easy!

“I think sometimes his time at Sunderland is not given the credit for how well he actually did.

“People look at him and think he is an angry manager, but he gets the best out of players. He got the best out of me.

“I think he would be a great manager now given the opportunity, I really do think that.”

~Danny Higginbotham​


Ipswich...

“Playing under Roy Keane is easy.

“If you work hard, he praises you. If you don't, you get criticised. He's a fairer man than people give him credit for.”

~Daryl Murphy


“Roy did come down pretty hard on a few of the others at Ipswich, but he was great to me. He told me to believe in my ability and, having played in the same position, he taught me a few things about the game which are really helping now. He was very good at building my confidence up.

“I've been on the receiving end of a few of his dressing-room tantrums, but he only did that when it was deserved, when the team hadn't performed. And, much as he could really dish it out, he was always very quick to praise you when you did well.

“I hope Roy comes back into management. He adds a lot to the game and I think he could be a big success in the future.”

~Jack Colback


“People have got entirely the wrong idea about the gaffer. They remember him as a player, when he was all about winning, and they automatically think he must be a bit of a madman in the dressing room.

“I wish I could take some of our fans in there because they would be amazed at how he really is. Yes, we get the hairdryer from time to time but only when we really deserve it. He tells it like it is but certainly doesn’t rant and rave just for the sake of it.

“He is actually quite calm most of the time and he is brilliant at taking the pressure off the players.”

~David Norris​


Aston Villa...

“To be honest, at the beginning, I didn't even think Roy would like me because of the type of player I am. On the first day of training, I didn't start the session that well and he tapped me on the shoulder after a half an hour.

"He said: 'Are you alright?' and I replied 'yeah'. And then he asked me: 'When do you start training then?'

“That put me under pressure straight away then. He was only bantering but I wondered was he being a little bit serious here. However, Roy's been brilliant for me and we now got on great.

“Every time I'm around the squad, he's flooded me with confidence and he's one of the main reasons for my success. So I thank Roy for all his help.”

~Jack Grealish


“I think he got on with the players. I think what people most respected about him is that he told it as it was, to be fair.

“And if you weren’t playing well he would tell you. He wouldn’t hide from the fact and yeah as I said personally he was fantastic for me. I had a lot of contact with him on different aspects of the game and I’m sorry to see him go.

“Obviously we wish him all the best and hopefully he does well in whatever venture he does next.

“Personally speaking he was fantastic for me. He always made me feel good and he always put in some good finishing sessions. I can’t speak highly enough of him and for me he was fantastic.

“If you want to improve as a player and get better you need people to tell you the truth. And he was definitely one for that.”

~Darren Bent


“I was surprised Roy left. It was a shock. I had a good working relationship with him. You could always go and talk with him whenever you wanted.

“He demanded a lot from the players to give their all in training and hopefully that legacy will remain. He definitely came in and put it across that he wanted our standards to be high all the time.

“I got that. If you're training like that, then you're going to take that intensity into games and I understand why. It's only been a week or so since Roy left, but the lads are giving their all.”

~Alan Hutton​


Republic of Ireland...

“I think you see a different side to Roy than we do. I think when he first came in everyone was a little bit on edge as you would be with Roy Keane.

“But as time has gone on he's fine to talk to. He's there for advice and he's a good coach. I think he's really enjoying it as well which is important.”

~Seamus Coleman


"I think Roy’s reputation in the media proceeds [sic] him slightly. He definitely comes across as being a little bit scarier on TV than he is in real life.

"Of course he doesn't come in singing and dancing in the morning! But he is a friendly man to speak to and very helpful if you have any questions."

~Eunan O'Kane


“I’ve had to make many big decisions. The biggest was bringing in Roy Keane and he has been absolutely phenomenal. I couldn’t be more delighted with him. He’s an iconic figure. He sometimes polarises opinion but not in the dressing room.”

~Martin O'Neill​


That is only a selection of the positive feedback Keane has received. And let's not forget he also spent 7 years leading the dressing room during the most successful period of United's history.
 
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Interesting ... I don't think anyone disputes he's a legend on the pitch
 
One of them is surely going to be about how people seem to look back at him as a holding midfielder which is completely wrong.
 
Myth: You could name a better player than Keano (bar Ronaldo) of SAF era.
 
Oh ffs, give it a break OP.
 
Ramshock said:
Put it this way, its taken the club 11 years to come up with a comparable replacement in Pogba and even we had to try twice with him AND he still has a lot to do to be in the same bracket as Roy Keane.
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Agreed. If hes half the influence and player keane was he'll be worth every penny.
 
He was a favourite player of mine for a while but I wish I could've been at an age where I understood but about the way he played. That said, I don't because then I'd be an old cnut.
 
Keane and Fergie were too similar. Stubborn old mules. Keane was everything you wanted on the pitch, leader, example setter, commander of his position. A great example to anyone. Off the field he is just tapped in the head, says it how hes sees it - no matter how wrong it is. Love him to bits though.
 
I read his second book a couple of weeks ago and to be honest I found him to be quite boring, he even says so himself.
 
Roy Keane gave his heart and soul for United and he was one of the primary reasons why we never let the standards drop during his stint as club captain. However, with time, you have to change your style of functioning as well and the one thing with Keane was that he is completely rigid and inflexible. Probably that's one of the reasons for his relative lack of success as a manager.

The player dynamics had already changed during his later years and he just couldn't cope with it. The good old style edge of the seat stuff, running around the field for the entire match, blood and sweat style of play was slowly becoming passe even in the PL with the emergence of skillful players both from mainland Europe and closer home.

The overall style of football was changing from being a pure adrenaline sport to something which was more artful and cultured. These players needed to be dealt with in a certain way and Keane was definitely not up for it. For him, there was only one way to get your football education. Idolize your seniors, work your butt off on the field and earn your place. I feel this whole difference in culture partly contributed to how it ended up.
 
Well put together OP. Its always disappointing when I hear United fans running Keane down. Quite simply the best I've seen in a Red shirt for a whole load of reasons that make great footballers great. As with the Ireland fallout there is a lot of half truths and downright lies told about it. The man was a winning machine. A once in a lifetime force of nature. For him to have done it so long in Uniteds colours is something we may not see for a long time. Great we have Pogba but he has long way to go. But we were very lucky to have Roy Keane. Its hard not to smile when fellow reds I know will hammer this player or that player or the manager, or the system and get apoplectic when someone is not performing and yet in the next sentence call Keane a cnut for saying the same stuff. apparently he is supposed to swan off into obscurity, parroting platitudes about how wonderful everything and everybody at united is, or he's a cnut. I love listening to him and his honesty and when you step outside the offence taking and listen to what he has to say its usually worth it. very fortunate to see him play and boss the best of his generation in many many games.
 
That's a lot of words for the few points no-one disputes.

Brilliant, brilliant player and leader.
Rubbish manager.
Idiot of a man.
 
11101 said:
That's a lot of words for the few points no-one disputes.

Brilliant, brilliant player and leader.
Rubbish manager.
Idiot of a man.
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Did you read it? It was defending his managerial record if anything. It argues that actually, he's not as bad as people think.
 
Whatever opinion you have of Keane as a person does not take away the fact he was a fantastic footballer and leader. If i personally had to write down the best 11 players I've ever seen play in United, Keane would be on that list.
 
When I read that he cried in his car after being given the flick I choked up a little. Brutal stuff, must have felt so awful at the time. Miss him, think he's an absolute legend and would love him to manage us one day if there is ever any capacity.
 
11101 said:
That's a lot of words for the few points no-one disputes.

Brilliant, brilliant player and leader.
Rubbish manager.
Idiot of a man.
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I think the OP argues quite eloquently that his management career isn't the car crash people think it is.

Keane rightfully took some time out from the frontline and has attempted to correct what he perceives as flaws in his management style. He might also have reached the conclusion he doesn't have it in him to be a manager but as of right now.. I wouldn't say his management career is that awful. It is mediocre by the standards I am sure he aspires to but at least he has achieved something tangible i.e. a promotion and some of the players he has managed have gone on to have solid careers.

He's done half decent compared to the rest of the Fergie era players apart from Bruce/Hughes.

When I was younger, I didn't quite appreciate Keano.. you're naturally more drawn to guys like Beckham or Giggs etc or Cantona. However having gone through years of watching us shit ourselves in midfield and going back and watching the footage of Keane - wow.. what a legend we had on our hands. Keano was the most influential midfielder we had in a quartet which had Giggs, Scholes and Beckham (3 of the most talented British players to have played the game).. that is a testament to his brilliance.
 
gav81 said:
On the first day of training, I didn't start the session that well and he tapped me on the shoulder after a half an hour.

"He said: 'Are you alright?' and I replied 'yeah'. And then he asked me: 'When do you start training then?'​
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​

Lmao.
 
I loved that match where he played as a 10 in behind RVN. Iirc he had quite a few chances that day and on another day could have had a few goals.
He had a superb football brain.
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Did you read it? It was defending his managerial record if anything. It argues that actually, he's not as bad as people think.
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It depends exactly how bad you think he is. He left his only two clubs in the relegation zone. No amount of praise from past players or colleagues can change that. He's an excellent leader of some, which is reflected in those quotes, but a good manager is a good leader of everyone. Couple that with the endless clashes and controversies at a club and national level, and you can only conclude he's not cut out for management.

To me, in management terms, he's a guy stuck living in the world he wishes still existed.
 
JB7 said:
One of them is surely going to be about how people seem to look back at him as a holding midfielder which is completely wrong.
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Yeah that seems to pop up more and more these days, or comparing him with players who are not even remotely similar. A few weeks back it was Fellaini..Jesus..

Sure sign of someone who never actually seen him play.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I hope you don't actually believe that.
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Why? You can try to argue that Scholes, Cantona, Rio, Giggs were better players at some point but the difference would be marginal anyway and I certainly can see the reasoning behind putting Keane second only to Ronaldo.

Keane was amazing and he was the best (and the most important) player in our treble-winning side. I personally prefer Scholes, but Keane was more important to us in 1999 than Scholes was at his best seasons if we're being honest here.
 
Ramshock said:
Is this pro or anti Keano? I cant tell yet.
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Basically he is spamming the forum with all the previous comments he has made about Roy. I expect to see similar threads on the other forums the OP belongs to. Roy should seek on order of protection this level of obsession is usually a bad sign.

Amongst all the posters, papers with quotes about Roy, you know there is a very creepy shrine built and possibly a flesh light with Roy's face.
 
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Roy Keane situation is quite simple. And i'm going to say what everyone knows. He is a club legend but he's also a jackass. His aggresion and determination served us and him very well during his playing days but that has stopped once he hanged his boots. He does say a lot of bullshit at times. What suitable role would you find for him inside the club? Do any of you see him as a club ambassador hanging out with people in Asia or Japan posing very happily with bags of chips or the latest insurance banner " Money for people"? Muppeting on MUTV about how good we were under Moyes and how it hasn't worked out for him?

Perhaps chief of security would suit him but can Woody offer him that without wearing a helmet and a dog repellent suit?
 
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