City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

[Rooney in Paris]

That is interesting but in England viewing figures and match attendances are both going up.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3636215

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.li...ier-league-attendance-only-going-28378783.amp


I appreciate that your friends might be less interested in the game but certainly in England, it's going up, not down.

I guess it depends on what you're putting under the umbrella "popular" - as the poster mentioned "losing its way", I felt they also meant on a more subjective level. I personally still watch a lot of football but am quite disillusioned by the whole system. There's been a book published highlighting how sad the whole system has become and how it's going to get worse. I feel there's finally a bit of a movement in the media to be critical of City, the way the PSR rules can be circumvented, etc. - light movement, but moreso than before. And just in general, I feel people being disillusioned by football, judging by this forum, by chatting with people who follow football, is stronger than ever before.

I feel you disagree, that's fine, but I don't think viewing figures is the only way to judge this element.

How can selling an asset to a sister company be okay? Feck it all!

It's entirely ridiculous.

 

[Kaizane]

Too much smoke for their to be no fire at the end of all of this. Sadly, I suspect it's going to be a case akin to the abusive ex who subscribes to the notion of "if I can't have them, nobody else can" and they go postal, blowing up the already creaking foundations the PL sits on. It's the beginning of the end of the PL era as we know it. Lovely day out, though.

 

[Eplel]

How can selling an asset to a sister company be okay? Feck it all!

Don't forget, they even added management fees paid to Chelsea as part of the deal (basically Chelsea would still be managing the hotels, but not own them, so the "owner" pays Chelsea a fee every year for "managing the hotels"), making it even more ludicrous.

 

[duffer]

I feel you disagree, that's fine, but I don't think viewing figures is the only way to judge this element.

Attendances, viewing figures and number of people playing the game are the only ways you can objectively judge the games popularity over long periods though. All those metrics are on the up (in England at least).

Everything else kinda boils down to "me and my mates don't care as much" for a variety of (perfectly reasonable) reasons. I don't care as much as I once did but that down to me getting old and Chelsea being shite.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Attendances, viewing figures and number of people playing the game are the only ways you can objectively judge the games popularity over long periods though. All those metrics are on the up (in England at least).

Everything else kinda boils down to "me and my mates don't care as much" for a variety of (perfectly reasonable) reasons. I don't care as much as I once did but that down to me getting old and Chelsea being shite.

But it's not a purely objective topic.

 

[duffer]

But it's not a purely objective topic.

But the number of people going to games, watching games and playing the game is part of the topic which can be looked at objectively.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

But the number of people going to games, watching games and playing the game is part of the topic which can be looked at objectively.

I'm not dismissing them - I'm saying it only gives the vision of a little part of the topic. I'm not disagreeing with you on the numbers, just saying there's more to it!

 

[duffer]

I'm not dismissing them - I'm saying it only gives the vision of a little part of the topic. I'm not disagreeing with you on the numbers, just saying there's more to it!

At this point I'm not really sure we're talking about the same topic so probably best to get back to Man City and financial doping!

 

[Matt Varnish]

If it were one relegation, they'd all have their offshore UAE accounts credited with some inordinate sum of money to stay for the year.

However, City's punishment is likely to be 5+ years expulsion or drop out of EPL/EFL (6 years of successive promotions back assuming Vanarama National League North accept them), so suspect you're right. Their mercenary scummy playing staff will be off to Newcastle.

They can't really do that, whilst the barcodes may have the buying power, they don't have the profits as a commercial business to spend that kind of money, unless of course they do a Chelsea and amortise the contracts over 8 - 10 years

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Net spend + wages I said, v Bayern we wouldn’t even be close not a chance. Without taking wages into account we are 10th in the premier league spend from your source(interesting got a wages or combined one?) since 2014 other teams near double net spend and if you take into account wages it will be double triple quadruple spend with league rivals. if you want to catch up you have to invest heavily before you get revenue like most business. Only problem is it’s not allowed.

https://football-observatory.com/WeeklyPost429

Our peak spend I believe was 6th and we finished 8th twice and since then FFP kicked in made to sell our players. The Ukraine war and stadium sent us over FFP. Fair play to Villa they’ve done well, see how long it lasts with FFP kicking in for them as well. Watkins to the cartel on the cheap is on the cards. Funny how Newcastle and Villa have to sell for FFP when they should be kicking on. No protecting the top 6 there clearly.


My issue with champions league expansion is I thought you guys couldn’t play more games yet more games? Just brings more revenue in a Mickey Mouse competition that’s rigged with coefficients so the same teams get through every year. 5 places to the premier league teams benefits the cartel so does prior league finishes gets you in.

The difference in revenue between 4th and 5th as Everton know very well form under Moyes is near impossible to breach without huge investment. Like Newcastle, Villa and City. And even when you do get top 4 you get a stinking group(coefficients) and not allowed to spend.

MUFC and Liverpool have way too much say on FFP hence the meeting with Richard Masters before he was signed off as league chairman. Corrupt. You think FFP is not heavily guided by them 2? And in their interest and the interest of sponsors? The idea is shut everyone else out. I guess that’s when the 12 minutes added time was added as well + VAR “clear and obvious”
Stick it to them City I say.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-man-utd-enrage-rivals-21470741.amp

We should be able to hide all your posts under spoiler tabs so I don't have to scroll through the terrible content.

 

[Sassy Colin]

This means the two hotels sold count against our FFP and we are no longer on the list of sales needed.

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Levers?

 

[Zaphod2319]

Levers?

It would seem we (Chelsea fans) have 8 more years of Boehly and Clearlake…. but yes, this is as close to Barcelona behavior as you can get. It is all perfectly legal accounting measures, but truly bizarre.

 

[LordSpud]

This means the two hotels sold count against our FFP and we are no longer on the list of sales needed.

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Sus behaviour from other clubs. Does beg the question how many clubs will actually end up backing City in the end. I think the PL will lose that City case next week.

 

[Red in STL]

They can't really do that, whilst the barcodes may have the buying power, they don't have the profits as a commercial business to spend that kind of money, unless of course they do a Chelsea and amortise the contracts over 8 - 10 years

You can't do that anymore, the max allowed now if I recall correctly is 5 or maybe 6

 

[Posh Red]

You can't do that anymore, the max allowed now if I recall correctly is 5 or maybe 6

It’s five.

 

[bstb3]

Sus behaviour from other clubs. Does beg the question how many clubs will actually end up backing City in the end. I think the PL will lose that City case next week.

I think it might be more because that kind of financial option is open to more clubs(for example sale and lease back on the stadium at preferential terms) than the whole mega sponsorships thing is, so they are less inclined to rule it out. It's more of a one off get out of the shit thing than a perpetual fudge like sponsorships, and to an extent more may need that. At least I'm hoping that otherwise yeah it's not great foreboding.

 

[duffer]

Levers?

Were Barca not selling to actual other companies though?

 

[Garnacho's Shoelaces]

They can't really do that, whilst the barcodes may have the buying power, they don't have the profits as a commercial business to spend that kind of money, unless of course they do a Chelsea and amortise the contracts over 8 - 10 years

Long term contract amortisation has been abolished from FFP rules I believe?

 

[WeePat]

I think it might be more because that kind of financial option is open to more clubs(for example sale and lease back on the stadium at preferential terms) than the whole mega sponsorships thing is, so they are less inclined to rule it out. It's more of a one off get out of the shit thing than a perpetual fudge like sponsorships, and to an extent more may need that. At least I'm hoping that otherwise yeah it's not great foreboding.

The amendment failed, however, because several clubs thought the wording of the ban was too wide, according to people with knowledge of the proposal. It did not clearly distinguish between the type of non-football revenues that clubs believe they should be encouraged to exploit, such as building hotels, houses or indoor arenas, and the accountancy tricks of selling existing property to yourself.

It is therefore almost certain that the Premier League will try to tighten up its proposal and bring it back to the clubs, as it believes it needs more tools to effectively regulate the clubs to ensure sustainability and fair competition.

 

[terraloo]

If the club own the hotels, they should b able to sell them for profit however selling them to themselves is just more corruption but that was 11/20 vote, So Chelsea are financially now not burdened by selling players like Gallagher who they should not sell.

The city 3rd party Sponsors vote will be similar vote, can’t see City wining that vote but you never know?

But you wouldn’t have it that Chelsea didn’t have to make player sales. Maybe not exact words but you stated as fact that player sales up to 30/6/24 had to exceed £100 million. As an aside I think there will be some player sales and ironically they will be in excess to the number you said but those sales will be in the main in the 24/25 year

Not quite sure what vote you are talking about when it comes to City yes there is an arbitration hearing but the clubs certainly aren’t voting on

 

[bstb3]

Ah thanks, so yeah they are worried it was going too wide. Makes sense to be more specific and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Thats a relief.

 

[JagUTD]

The thing that stands out above all else for me in this is how City have more lawyers than fans.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

It is tragic what football have become and I feel sorry for kids that they never experienced when football ment something and not just money.

If there was a book about how to push people away from football they are writing it pretty well right now and have been for some years.

You say that but ticket sales have never been higher. I remember only 20 years ago there were PL teams who had empty seats everywhere, whereas now those same teams sell out most games.

 

[Woziak]

But you wouldn’t have it that Chelsea didn’t have to make player sales. Maybe not exact words but you stated as fact that player sales up to 30/6/24 had to exceed £100 million. As an aside I think there will be some player sales and ironically they will be in excess to the number you said but those sales will be in the main in the 24/25 year

Not quite sure what vote you are talking about when it comes to City yes there is an arbitration hearing but the clubs certainly aren’t voting on

No but some clubs are giving evidence for their case and some against their case, Chelsea still have their ongoing investigation of potentially
, paying players and agent fees and not declaring them in their financial yearly accounts under Abrahmovic, the Chelsea scenario is likely heard just after City, so politically they probably need to tread very carefully right now, don’t you think?

 

[terraloo]

No but some clubs are giving evidence for their case and some against their case, Chelsea still have their ongoing investigation of potentially
, paying players and agent fees and not declaring them in their financial yearly accounts under Abrahmovic, the Chelsea scenario is likely heard just after City, so politically they probably need to tread very carefully right now, don’t you think?

All the PL clubs have been asked their opinion that’s correct but the arbitration will deal with simply the case bought by City against the PL and opinion of clubs will be of little interest to the arbitration panel who will try to resolve the dispute in accord with English Law

Chelsea do indeed have an ongoing investigation into incomplete records but we don’t really know an awful lot about what that entails save what has been reported . I have to be honest I am surprised it has taken so long but not quite sure Chelsea have to do anything other than make sure that everything post the change of ownership is 100% transparent

One of the problems that the PL may have is that the supposed payments came for RA and he no longer is duty bound to supply information, speak to or even engage with the authorities in any shape or form . If BlueCo have truly disclosed everything they have then I would have thought the investigation would have concluded by now

 

[90 + 5min]

You say that but ticket sales have never been higher. I remember only 20 years ago there were PL teams who had empty seats everywhere, whereas now those same teams sell out most games.

There is difference between fans and consumers. PR machine is working good and money is still there but it feels like house of Cards.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

The cartel introduced 5 subs, scrapping fa cup replays implemented rules to stop any challengers to them like Leicester Everton Newcastle Villa. No investment allowed restrictions.

Started off strong. Thomas Frank was in favour of the 5 subs rule and scrapping FA Cup replays. Bloody Brentford cartel.

Look at the last 30 years league placing trophies won, v the 30 years prior. The spread of trophies and revenue over them periods. Then tell me coupled with the above something not seriously wrong and there is not a protectionist cartel! the evidence is overwhelming.

Wait, are you saying City are part of this cartel? They've won 4 in a row and normalised getting 90+ points evey season, which had led to a far inferior league than previous decades.

United’s position on this is: City spent less than us over the last 10 years, and a bit to catch up, wahhhhhh, so we want the rules fixed in our favour. Sorry it just doesn’t wash with me, you want to swap corrupt crap with corrupt crap for your benefit. The whole thing needs a massive reset.

When did United push for bending the rules in our favour? They can only spend what they generate as a club. That’s the opposite of "corrupt crap" and relies on income generated from the fanbase.

 

[Wumminator]

That is interesting but in England viewing figures and match attendances are both going up.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3636215

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.li...ier-league-attendance-only-going-28378783.amp


I appreciate that your friends might be less interested in the game but certainly in England, it's going up, not down.

Hang on.

You need way more analysis than that to say the Premier League is getting more popular.

 

[duffer]

Hang on.

You need way more analysis than that to say the Premier League is getting more popular.

I'm talking about viewers and attendances. Both are up.

 

[Wumminator]

I'm talking about viewers and attendances. Both are up.

Well they are up for
a) The opening gameweek of last season on Sky.
b) Attendances on average (actually went down compared to last season)

A) Without the context for the games and the amount of games shown that is an absolutely pointless statistic.
B) Attendances are depending on the clubs in the Prem. Last year with Luton coming up and Leicester/Leeds going down they were always going to drop.

 

[OleGunnar20]

We should be able to hide all your posts under spoiler tabs so I don't have to scroll through the terrible content.

pesky 'Everton' fans.

 

[croadyman]

Sus behaviour from other clubs. Does beg the question how many clubs will actually end up backing City in the end. I think the PL will lose that City case next week.

That's the end of Premier League when another team can overpower them in a court of law

 

[alexthelion]

Net spend + wages I said, v Bayern we wouldn’t even be close not a chance. Without taking wages into account we are 10th in the premier league spend from your source(interesting got a wages or combined one?) since 2014 other teams near double net spend and if you take into account wages it will be double triple quadruple spend with league rivals. if you want to catch up you have to invest heavily before you get revenue like most business. Only problem is it’s not allowed.

https://football-observatory.com/WeeklyPost429

Our peak spend I believe was 6th and we finished 8th twice and since then FFP kicked in made to sell our players. The Ukraine war and stadium sent us over FFP. Fair play to Villa they’ve done well, see how long it lasts with FFP kicking in for them as well. Watkins to the cartel on the cheap is on the cards. Funny how Newcastle and Villa have to sell for FFP when they should be kicking on. No protecting the top 6 there clearly.


My issue with champions league expansion is I thought you guys couldn’t play more games yet more games? Just brings more revenue in a Mickey Mouse competition that’s rigged with coefficients so the same teams get through every year. 5 places to the premier league teams benefits the cartel so does prior league finishes gets you in.

The difference in revenue between 4th and 5th as Everton know very well form under Moyes is near impossible to breach without huge investment. Like Newcastle, Villa and City. And even when you do get top 4 you get a stinking group(coefficients) and not allowed to spend.

MUFC and Liverpool have way too much say on FFP hence the meeting with Richard Masters before he was signed off as league chairman. Corrupt. You think FFP is not heavily guided by them 2? And in their interest and the interest of sponsors? The idea is shut everyone else out. I guess that’s when the 12 minutes added time was added as well + VAR “clear and obvious”
Stick it to them City I say.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/liverpool-man-utd-enrage-rivals-21470741.amp

Do gross spend rather than net. Net only shows how good a team is at selling players.

 

[DarkLord1984]

Sus behaviour from other clubs. Does beg the question how many clubs will actually end up backing City in the end. I think the PL will lose that City case next week.

Awfully curious how when a case is brought against Abu Dhabi it drags on for years, yet the minute they bring a case against someone, it happens within a couple of weeks.

 

[whitbyviking]

Awfully curious how when a case is brought against Abu Dhabi it drags on for years, yet the minute they bring a case against someone, it happens within a couple of weeks.

Probably because the premier league won’t obstruct the case and drag it out for years, whereas that is exactly what Abu Dhabi FC have done

 

[Judas]

Yeah the quite clear and obvious reason is other clubs aren’t doing everything they can to delay and obstruct investigation. City have been doing that for years. Which is always a logical thing to do if you’ve got nothing to hide.

 

[terraloo]

That's the end of Premier League when another team can overpower them in a court of law

People keep saying a court of law it’s not it’s an arbitration panel.

Personally I don’t have a problem with the process simply because all clubs have the right to ask a question as it were in what is an independent setting.

We need to look at where we are. City believe or should I say argue that a rule that has been passed is contrary to UK Law.

Now I have no idea of the legal arguments but if legal experts come to the conclusion that the rule is indeed contrary to law then of course it should be either withdrawn or more likely amended

People are being overly dramatic in all this but just reflect and take matters to the extreme say the PL ruled that Utd say had to play all their home games behind close doors for no reason save it rains a lot in Manchester wouldn’t you expect Utd to challenge that even if it meant asking for the matter to go to arbitration

 

[terraloo]

Awfully curious how when a case is brought against Abu Dhabi it drags on for years, yet the minute they bring a case against someone, it happens within a couple of weeks.

The City 115 case went through the arbitration process quite a while ago.
Of course City have tried to delay the case at every stage but in terms of legal arguments and process this was always going to take time and people really want to look at the charge sheet each matter will be a separate legal case in its own right
I am ok with the PL not taking any short cuts, not dotting every i and crossing every T because as we know from the case at UEFA Cities tactics worked had UEFA dotted and crossed things it’s highly likely the ruling at CAS would have been different

 

[Berbaclass]

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[OldSchoolManc]

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Thoughts? Joleon Lescott thinks fans are too stupid to know that City are massive cheats