City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches | Hearing begins 16th September 2024

MrMarcello said:
@antohan @Woziak

Not sure if this explains what either of you are discussing. There does appear to be language that keeps some income off UK tax rules. Also, the article mentions Haaland earned £865k per week salary this past season.

https://www.withersworldwide.com/en-gb/insight/read/blowing-the-whistle-on-the-‘non-dom’-regime-a-case-study
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Yeah, that's what I was referring to. I'm surprised that for the first three years Non-Dom is granted as standard even with a longer contract but I guess the argument is you could be sold at any time.

The remittance basis they mention is off though. You pay on the higher of remittance or "% of time in UK x total global income".

I was non-dom, received my salary offshore because it was an EMEA role whereby I happened to be UK based by choice and only transfered (remittance) what I needed for bills and stuff. I still wound up paying tax on the larger amount that resulted from spending 7-8 months in the UK.

It's a pretty penny for a footballer if you add all the days they are NOT in the UK at all (hols, preseason abroad, international breaks, European fixtures). On an 865k a week salary every day abroad your spend is essentially financed by the 50k+ tax you are avoiding. I used to think of my holidays that way and I was making nowhere near that :lol:
 
antohan said:
No, if you are domiciled in the UK and go for 10 days to the UAE to do work in the UAE and get paid in the UAE you still have to declare that income and pay tax on it. If the UAE doesn't tax you that makes it even easier and far less protracted.

Of course, you can skip it and consider it untraceable, but if it gets traced or there is sufficient proof from all the 115 charges investigations you have a bigger problem than the tax due. You've lied to HMRC.

Mancini isn't the best example as he may well have made the case for non-dom successfully. There's no way they non-dom someone like Agüero applying for a work permit with a 5 year contract in hand.
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And you genuinely believe that any Middle East club wants their players to declare these additional wages which would then have them bang to rights with undeclaring costs of running their club towards PSR and FFP as well as committing tax fraud, of course they are not declared what should be done and what is being done are two different entities, your confusing non domicile with actually turning a complete blind eye and not giving a S…?
 
It’s just so fecking depressing that they achieved 4 in a row and matched our greatest achievement. It gives their deluded fans more ammunition. It doesn’t count but unfortunately many people will never see that
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
It’s just so fecking depressing that they achieved 4 in a row and matched our greatest achievement. It gives their deluded fans more ammunition. It doesn’t count but unfortunately many people will never see that
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Most people do see it as fraudulent though. It's only really city fans who see it as genuine.
 
Top_Bins said:
If they are allowed to continue in this manner they will inevitably be joined at the top of the league by newcastle. Then it will be a fight for the other two spots. Maybe now and again someone will grab 2nd and even first if a miracle happens.
There will be no consequences if they fail in the transfer market or pick the wrong manager. They will just buy a whole new back line like Pep did when their signings all failed.
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Just like the Scottish top league, which is just a slog to watch.

Oooh, who will win this year?! Absolutely hollow if I'm honest.
 
I’ve said it before, but this will end with a “historic” fine (which won’t count against their PSR obligations, of course) and maybe a biggish points reduction of, like, 20-30 points.

Enough money and enough points for the PL executives to be able to say, “hey, we gave them an unprecedented punishment”.

And inconsequential enough for the City owners to say that they reluctantly accept so we can all move on.
 
Are the international sales of Premier league TV rights sold annually or over a multi-year deal?.

I would have thought that heads of La Liga, Serie A and MLS (now Messi is there and they’re looking to expand ) would have latched onto this to try a usurp their contracts.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Just like the Scottish top league, which is just a slog to watch.

Oooh, who will win this year?! Absolutely hollow if I'm honest.
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Yeah!
I remember a few years back there was hope for Dundee breaking that duopoly but that petered out in the end.

The sharing of the TV money equally was supposed to keep the premier league competitive, and to a degree we're starting to see that, with lower teams not needing to sell their top players anymore, or certainly be able to retain them for longer.
 
Nico87 said:
Are the international sales of Premier league TV rights sold annually or over a multi-year deal?.

I would have thought that heads of La Liga, Serie A and MLS (now Messi is there and they’re looking to expand ) would have latched onto this to try a usurp their contracts.
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The Premier League rights are sold in 4 season blocks usually.
 
Woziak said:
And you genuinely believe that any Middle East club wants their players to declare these additional wages which would then have them bang to rights with undeclaring costs of running their club towards PSR and FFP as well as committing tax fraud, of course they are not declared what should be done and what is being done are two different entities, your confusing non domicile with actually turning a complete blind eye and not giving a S…?
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I'm aware they are likely doing shady stuff to circunvent FFP and getting away with it.

I'm just establishing how it should be done legally and that doing otherwise isn't just the club/owners cheating but that those playing along are also in trouble.

You can't submit a tax return to HMRC that does not disclose what you are paid in the UAE for work done in the UAE, not without breaking the law in the process.
 
antohan said:
I'm aware they are likely doing shady stuff to circunvent FFP and getting away with it.

I'm just establishing how it should be done legally and that doing otherwise isn't just the club/owners cheating but that those playing along are also in trouble.

You can't submit a tax return to HMRC that does not disclose what you are paid in the UAE for work done in the UAE, not without breaking the law in the process.
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Ok I understand what you mean but I’ve worked in the Middle East and let me tell you they have very little regard for doing anything they would benefit the UK HMRC unless they absolute have too or it’s a benefit to them.

Islamic culture and business prides itself on not paying tax and not paying interest on loans.

Don’t get me wrong Arab banks still make money by charging management fees but they are very strict on shari’a Law especially SA and UAE.

If Mancini was paid ambassador fees in UAE while he was paid in the UK, I’m assuming everything at that time was under European Law not UK law, now he would need working visa to work in the UK? At the time he did not and I doubt very much that Manchini or City declared any income that he earned in the Middle East to UK HMRC because this would be proof that he was paid more as an amalgamated. Salary to be man city Coach and this full salary was not disclosed in the City financial accounts handed to the PL as they are obliged to do so.

This is listed as one of the 115 breaches so there must a case to be proven or not proven when the trial starts in November 24.
 
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thisisnottaken1 said:
It’s just so fecking depressing that they achieved 4 in a row and matched our greatest achievement. It gives their deluded fans more ammunition. It doesn’t count but unfortunately many people will never see that
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Nah it’s actually helpful - the entire argument they have looks utterly ridiculous, that the ‘red cartel’ has stopped and hindered them at every turn, exactly because of that. They would have a lot more sympathy if they weren’t dominant.
 
Woziak said:
Ok I understand what you mean but I’ve worked in the Middle East and let me tell you they have very little regard for doing anything they would benefit the UK HMRC unless they absolute have too or it’s a benefit to them.

Islamic culture and business prides itself on not paying tax and not paying interest on loans.

Don’t get me wrong Arab banks still make money by charging management fees but they are very strict on shari’a Law especially SA and UAE.

If Mancini was paid ambassador fees in UAE while he was paid in the UK, I’m assuming everything at that time was under European Law not UK law, now he would need working visa to work in the UK? At the time he did not and I doubt very much that Manchini or City declared any income that he earned in the Middle East to UK HMRC because this would be proof that he was paid more as an amalgamated. Salary to be man city Coach and this full salary was not disclosed in the City financial accounts handed to the PL as they are obliged to do so.

This is listed as one of the 115 breaches so there must a case to be proven or not proven when the trial starts in November 24.
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It doesn't matter what Arabs think about taxes or contributing to HM Government, if Mancini's tax return underreported global income he is at fault. It's his reported income, thus his ass that can be prosecuted for it.

I just say Mancini because you do, it applies to anyone else.
 
If the PL were not confident of convicting City, I don't think they would have set the precedent they did with Forest and Everton this season. And given that precedent for just one breach, what punishment does 115 breaches of the rules get? Nobody knows but it has to be proportional to the punishments they have already given out.
 
Woziak said:
Ok I understand what you mean but I’ve worked in the Middle East and let me tell you they have very little regard for doing anything they would benefit the UK HMRC unless they absolute have too or it’s a benefit to them.

Islamic culture and business prides itself on not paying tax and not paying interest on loans.

Don’t get me wrong Arab banks still make money by charging management fees but they are very strict on shari’a Law especially SA and UAE.

If Mancini was paid ambassador fees in UAE while he was paid in the UK, I’m assuming everything at that time was under European Law not UK law, now he would need working visa to work in the UK? At the time he did not and I doubt very much that Manchini or City declared any income that he earned in the Middle East to UK HMRC because this would be proof that he was paid more as an amalgamated. Salary to be man city Coach and this full salary was not disclosed in the City financial accounts handed to the PL as they are obliged to do so.

This is listed as one of the 115 breaches so there must a case to be proven or not proven when the trial starts in November 24.
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It’s quite a complex set up, if the emails that have been leaked tell the story as it actually is

Mancini was it seems working to a full time contract as manager under PAYE/ NIC. It doesn’t seem that there is any suggestion of anything wrong at all with this contract or how it operated for tax purposes

Again as I point out this is based purely on what was leaked.

The same individuals that signed off his Man City Contract also agreed and signed off another contract with a Mancini Company which seems to suggest that for a couple of days coaching each year at another club in the City Group based in the Middle East this Mancini company , based in Italy, would be paid more than he , Mancini, was paid to manage City.

The more details you have for instance that Italian Company invoiced City in Manchester not the other club and payment came from a Manchester City club account

As to taxation. Well there is nothing that I can see from an HMRC that would set alarm bells ringing but the issue here goes back to PL/ FA rules re contracts etc and the fact that if this was indeed a payment disguised then yes they will be very interested . I believe that this company claim to have paid all taxes as due so I would imagine that is under Italian jurisdiction.

Other little bits again if the leaks are correct and are interesting such as the two contracts appeared to have been signed off on the same day.
 
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Danny_ said:
If the PL were not confident of convicting City, I don't think they would have set the precedent they did with Forest and Everton this season. And given that precedent for just one breach, what punishment does 115 breaches of the rules get? Nobody knows but it has to be proportional to the punishments they have already given out.
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There isn’t a precedent .In total five panels have shown little consistency ( Everton charge1+appeal) Everton Charge 2 and Forest 1 charge + appeal
 
Danny_ said:
If the PL were not confident of convicting City, I don't think they would have set the precedent they did with Forest and Everton this season. And given that precedent for just one breach, what punishment does 115 breaches of the rules get? Nobody knows but it has to be proportional to the punishments they have already given out.
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I don't think any of Man City's 115 charges are the same as Forest or Evertons. It isn't as simple as "break FFP rules therefore you get 6 points".

It's like driving, doing 75 on a motorway and doing 100 in a 20 zone are both driving offences but the punishments are (rightly) wildly different.
 
Surely the biggest issue with these charges are a large amount of them specifically relate to a refusal to submit the requested documents for investigation. Like a missed drugs test these charges should be immediately considered as a failure and punished accordingly. That then leads us into the subsequent period of time where city have continued to refuse to comply with any investigations/submit any documents.

If this case ends with city being forced to submit all records the PL request I don't see how they possibly escape another huge round of charges for the period up to present day. It's no surprise City are fighting with everything they have - this could very well be a genuine house of cards situation

Someone said earlier that they'll inevitably bounce back anyway but I'm not so sure, if they get a full force punishment what's to stop Abu Dabhi throwing a strop, pulling the plug and going off to buy another French/Spanish/Italian club. The idea that these people have any affection for Manchester feckin City is laughable - they're a conduit nothing else and if they don't enable the sportswashing due to pesky 'rules' they'll be dropped in an instant

City will then fully realise the danger of unchecked investment into their club when they're unable to maintain their costs and they're sent out of business entirely.
 
Red Dreams said:
The oil states are a cancer on the English game.
They need to be eradicated.
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Might wanna reword that buddy... Removed from/kicked out of football.

Cause what you posted there reads like you wanna you know...
 
So apparently Villa now want to sue the PL. Which means they want to sue the other clubs. Do these idiot owners even understand the competition they are involved in?

Time for the tyrannical majority as some football league club once called them to exercise these abnormal clubs from the league.
 
padr81 said:
Might wanna reword that buddy... Removed from/kicked out of football.

Cause what you posted there reads like you wanna you know...
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Never want people killed.
But you know where I am coming from.

With what these people have done to your club, it may never recover.
When pushed, they hide behind Islam when they do not even practice the teachings of that faith.

The government will do nothing about these people buying our clubs.
Our economy is screwed.
Only the fans can stop this. Whatever the rivalry we must stand together.
 
Red_Aaron said:
Surely the biggest issue with these charges are a large amount of them specifically relate to a refusal to submit the requested documents for investigation. Like a missed drugs test these charges should be immediately considered as a failure and punished accordingly. That then leads us into the subsequent period of time where city have continued to refuse to comply with any investigations/submit any documents.

If this case ends with city being forced to submit all records the PL request I don't see how they possibly escape another huge round of charges for the period up to present day. It's no surprise City are fighting with everything they have - this could very well be a genuine house of cards situation

Someone said earlier that they'll inevitably bounce back anyway but I'm not so sure, if they get a full force punishment what's to stop Abu Dabhi throwing a strop, pulling the plug and going off to buy another French/Spanish/Italian club. The idea that these people have any affection for Manchester feckin City is laughable - they're a conduit nothing else and if they don't enable the sportswashing due to pesky 'rules' they'll be dropped in an instant

City will then fully realise the danger of unchecked investment into their club when they're unable to maintain their costs and they're sent out of business entirely.
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Re: bolded - fully agree with that. The minute they were over the deadline for providing documents, just suspend them until they provide them.
 
JagUTD said:
So apparently Villa now want to sue the PL. Which means they want to sue the other clubs. Do these idiot owners even understand the competition they are involved in?

Time for the tyrannical majority as some football league club once called them to exercise these abnormal clubs from the league.
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Its simple isnt it? Just kick them out the PL and let them play CL..

Villa, Chelsea, Everton and City can go set up their own competition and spend spend spend. They'll soon want to leave it when City blow all those clubs out the water with their spending power.
 
Adisa said:
Been reported that it’s secret. We won’t know.
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Feels bad that doesn’t it? I’m picturing envelopes stacking on the table and eventually there will be enough
 
It has as much chance of remaining a secret as Rishi had of watching Malcolm in the Middle. There will be more leaks than a United Utilities brand colander.
 
Red Dreams said:
Never want people killed.
But you know where I am coming from.

With what these people have done to your club, it may never recover.
When pushed, they hide behind Islam when they do not even practice the teachings of that faith.

The government will do nothing about these people buying our clubs.
Our economy is screwed.
Only the fans can stop this. Whatever the rivalry we must stand together.
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For sure man. I don't know much about the economy as I'm living in Ireland last 35 years but I do think football needs a cleaning.
 
Pexbo said:
Feels bad that doesn’t it? I’m picturing envelopes stacking on the table and eventually there will be enough
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The entire case was supposed to be confidential but it leaked out. The result of the case will leak out definitely.
 
strandty said:
The entire case was supposed to be confidential but it leaked out. The result of the case will leak out definitely.
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There’s huge money on the table for any leaker as this is one of the biggest scoops football in this country has known.


The scrambling behind the scenes and dodginess of this whole, sordid affair must be epic.
 
MegadrivePerson said:
We'll soon know as City will be going on a spending spree like we've never seen before if they win!
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Well they are apparently going to activate Bruno Guimarães' release clause which is roughly 100m (not sure if £ or €) so doesnt look like they are too bothered by anything going on around them.
 
YikesSchmeics said:
To be quite honest, every single conga dancing, banana waving, gloat merchant in that fanbase, who vehemently defends the owners and shuts every 115 discussion down with "cry" or waffle about grass length, deserves everything that they get.
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100% this. I've never seen a more rotten set of fans than these awful little City glory hunters. The way they squeal with delight about their latest illegal Premier League victory while simultaneously claiming to be the victims of the "red cartel" is just revolting.

I get that banter is a part of football rivalry. But this "football club" seems to attract some genuinely nasty, vile people who only seem to get pleasure out of the frustration of others. I can't tell you how many times I've seen City fans on reddit etc spewing out bile such as "I'm glad our club is upsetting so many people by winning all the time" and "LOL Pep has got you all so triggered" and stalking your profile and harassing you if you dare disagree with them.

I'm sure there are many genuine City supporters who have been fans since before the takeover and are decent folks. But I'd love to see all these horrible little "Cope" squealing glory hunters silenced.
 
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