Christopher Nkunku to Chelsea | Confirmed

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bucky said:
I don't care. If you post shite, you get called out. As if other leagues are irrelevant and only the EPL matters. One of the dumbest takes that I've read on here recently.
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It's not 'the only league that matters', it's just significantly stronger than the Eredivisie and the Bundesliga - hence my concern that we seem to being linked with a tonne of players from these leagues.

Not that it really matters, because we all know most of these players that are linked with us are just lazy journalists putting 2+2 together and getting 5.
 
L1nk said:
So people in this thread seem to believe we should only sign players from the Premier League then? Every other league is complete trash apparently and its rare for players to come from other leagues and do well? Christ
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No, that doesn't work for the Brexit FC goons.
Basically there are no right signings for a massive chunk of the forum.
 
Lentwood said:
It's not about rejecting Nkuku specifically. Go through this forum now and see how many lists there are of "United must sign these 5 players"....and they are almost all exclusively hipster signings from the Eredivisie, Ligue Un and the Bundesliga.

Now, sure, there must be currently 5-10 players in each of those leagues who are yet to 'explode' and will become fantastic players. However, most of the players touted as 'must-signs' by this forum will have middling to average careers.

You see it all the time, go back five years, trawl through the swathes of 'must-sign' lists people put together and see how many end up producing even one world-class player.

As I said, the mistake I made was putting this here, so it looks like a specific attack on one player. It's not an attack on one player, I could just as easily have put this in the Timber thread, or Antony thread. It's an attack on the idea that we can just fill the side with lads from the European hipster leagues and we'll suddenly be fine next season.

Going back to my concern, and the reason I posted in the first place....we have Ralf Rangnick and Erik ten Haag now setting part of the agenda on transfers. I am slightly worried that they might end up filling the squad with mediocre players who have been playing almost exclusively at a lower level. Although, Rangnick himself did say recently the Bundesliga is an inferior league.
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Huge difference is that in the last 5 years data and sporting analysis has exploded so it’s now far easier for anyone including fans to objectively rate players. Of all the players I’ve seriously backed in the last 2 years for various roles most of them have gone on to be very successful at their respective clubs.

It’s so much easier to now spot what is a good player and who will suit what you need.

In fact I’ll quite happily give you a free choice of any top club and any position and I’ll be able to find you a comparable player for that same role based on their profile.

If you want to have an opinion that isn’t ridiculed inform yourself more of the topic you’re discussing.

This is why Nkunku is a low risk move relative to other players:
https://fbref.com/en/players/7c56da38/Christopher-Nkunku

This is why Antony is riskier but with a high upside:
https://fbref.com/en/players/99127249/Antony

Most people now aren’t plucking names out of thin air from hipster leagues.
 
Lentwood said:
It's not 'the only league that matters', it's just significantly stronger than the Eredivisie and the Bundesliga - hence my concern that we seem to being linked with a tonne of players from these leagues.

Not that it really matters, because we all know most of these players that are linked with us are just lazy journalists putting 2+2 together and getting 5.
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So what do you suggest we do? We can't bully our EPL rivals into giving us Kane, Son, Rice or someone like that. Signing one of the best players from the Bundesliga, that isn't playing for Munich, who's recently also broken into the most stacked national team, doesn't seem like the worst idea, especially if we have a plan for him.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Huge difference is that in the last 5 years data and sporting analysis has exploded so it’s now far easier for anyone including fans to objectively rate players. Of all the players I’ve seriously backed in the last 2 years for various roles most of them have gone on to be very successful at their respective clubs.

It’s so much easier to now spot what is a good player and who will suit what you need.

In fact I’ll quite happily give you a free choice of any top club and any position and I’ll be able to find you a comparable player for that same role based on their profile.

If you want to have an opinion that isn’t ridiculed inform yourself more of the topic you’re discussing.

This is why Nkunku is a low risk move relative to other players:
https://fbref.com/en/players/7c56da38/Christopher-Nkunku

This is why Antony is riskier but with a high upside:
https://fbref.com/en/players/99127249/Antony

Most people now aren’t plucking names out of thin air from hipster leagues.
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I don't know what I am supposed to take from information though? It's one thing having a tonne of Data but interpreting it in a manner which produces useful results is exceptionally difficult. Which of those statistics am I meant to be using to determine whether this lad is going to be an elite Premier League forward player?

How, for example, do you qualify an 81.3% passing success rate in the relatively calmer waters of the Bundesliga and determine what that passing success rate might look like in the Premier League, against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham etc...? How do we know how Jadon Sancho's statistics might have compared with Nkunku's statistics, had they swapped teams this season?

I am a huge fan of horse racing and I could give you a subscription to a Database which contains every single piece of information about a horse you could care to imagine. How fast it ran each race in fps, how fast it ran each furlong, how that compares with the average, it's stride length and frequency, it's finishing sectionals, it's times against standard, it's height, weight, colour, age, performance in every single race, bloodline etc....

99.99% of people couldn't do anything useful with that Data, though. If anything, I think they would end up losing even more money than if they just backed horses based on the far more limited information available in the Racing Post.

Generally, Data and statistics are 75% of the puzzle and experience and the "eye test" make-up that crucial 25%. I'll be criticised for saying that, but if I were wrong, we wouldn't bother with Scouts and all of our players would be selected by a computer algorithm. Likewise, if interrogating Data and statistics alone could pick the winner of a horse race, there would be no bookmakers left....but there hasn't been a computer program powerful enough yet to pick winners regularly enough to win money....but humans can do it.
 
Lentwood said:
I don't know what I am supposed to take from information though? It's one thing having a tonne of Data but interpreting it in a manner which produces useful results is exceptionally difficult. Which of those statistics am I meant to be using to determine whether this lad is going to be an elite Premier League forward player?

How, for example, do you qualify an 81.3% passing success rate in the relatively calmer waters of the Bundesliga and determine what that passing success rate might look like in the Premier League, against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham etc...? How do we know how Jadon Sancho's statistics might have compared with Nkunku's statistics, had they swapped teams this season?

I am a huge fan of horse racing and I could give you a subscription to a Database which contains every single piece of information about a horse you could care to imagine. How fast it ran each race in fps, how fast it ran each furlong, how that compares with the average, it's stride length and frequency, it's finishing sectionals, it's times against standard, it's height, weight, colour, age, performance in every single race, bloodline etc....

99.99% of people couldn't do anything useful with that Data, though. If anything, I think they would end up losing even more money than if they just backed horses based on the far more limited information available in the Racing Post.

Generally, Data and statistics are 75% of the puzzle and experience and the "eye test" make-up that crucial 25%. I'll be criticised for saying that, but if I were wrong, we wouldn't bother with Scouts and all of our players would be selected by a computer algorithm. Likewise, if interrogating Data and statistics alone could pick the winner of a horse race, there would be no bookmakers left....but there hasn't been a computer program powerful enough yet to pick winners regularly enough to win money....but humans can do it.
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You're 100% correct.

I read an article about Mathew Benham (Brentford owner) and he talks about the use of data which they're known for. Says it has a lot of noise, and two crucial bits of information are needed in addition:
1) The eye test as you say, which I'd also increase in scope to include whether the players style of play would fit into the team you're trying to build / a modern top team
2) The context of the team and league the player plays for, which affects the underlying stats of the player.

It was in this article https://atthematch.com/article/a-profile-of-brentfords-owner-matthew-benham

Lentwood said:
It's not about rejecting Nkuku specifically. Go through this forum now and see how many lists there are of "United must sign these 5 players"....and they are almost all exclusively hipster signings from the Eredivisie, Ligue Un and the Bundesliga.

Now, sure, there must be currently 5-10 players in each of those leagues who are yet to 'explode' and will become fantastic players. However, most of the players touted as 'must-signs' by this forum will have middling to average careers.

You see it all the time, go back five years, trawl through the swathes of 'must-sign' lists people put together and see how many end up producing even one world-class player.

As I said, the mistake I made was putting this here, so it looks like a specific attack on one player. It's not an attack on one player, I could just as easily have put this in the Timber thread, or Antony thread. It's an attack on the idea that we can just fill the side with lads from the European hipster leagues and we'll suddenly be fine next season.

Going back to my concern, and the reason I posted in the first place....we have Ralf Rangnick and Erik ten Haag now setting part of the agenda on transfers. I am slightly worried that they might end up filling the squad with mediocre players who have been playing almost exclusively at a lower level. Although, Rangnick himself did say recently the Bundesliga is an inferior league.
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Also agreed. I think the hardest thing for any team is identifying talents that just aren't going to be very good, but could go on to be excellent. It's why managers like SAF and Klopp are so special - they get these signings consistently right (or the Liverpool transfer committee if that's the case in the later). For instance players like Depay, Mikhitaryan, Martial - all very good players that play for top European clubs. But none of them really had the potential to be the best in their position.

Of course style of play matters, SAF was renowned for making average players look better than they are, but I think it's equally a case of filling a team with elite talents as the spine first, who will then elevate the rest of the very good but not quite elite players.
 
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This is surreal, the lad is still arguing about a player he has never seen and is now talking about eye test.
 
Lentwood said:
I don't know what I am supposed to take from information though? It's one thing having a tonne of Data but interpreting it in a manner which produces useful results is exceptionally difficult. Which of those statistics am I meant to be using to determine whether this lad is going to be an elite Premier League forward player?

How, for example, do you qualify an 81.3% passing success rate in the relatively calmer waters of the Bundesliga and determine what that passing success rate might look like in the Premier League, against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham etc...? How do we know how Jadon Sancho's statistics might have compared with Nkunku's statistics, had they swapped teams this season?

I am a huge fan of horse racing and I could give you a subscription to a Database which contains every single piece of information about a horse you could care to imagine. How fast it ran each race in fps, how fast it ran each furlong, how that compares with the average, it's stride length and frequency, it's finishing sectionals, it's times against standard, it's height, weight, colour, age, performance in every single race, bloodline etc....

99.99% of people couldn't do anything useful with that Data, though. If anything, I think they would end up losing even more money than if they just backed horses based on the far more limited information available in the Racing Post.

Generally, Data and statistics are 75% of the puzzle and experience and the "eye test" make-up that crucial 25%. I'll be criticised for saying that, but if I were wrong, we wouldn't bother with Scouts and all of our players would be selected by a computer algorithm. Likewise, if interrogating Data and statistics alone could pick the winner of a horse race, there would be no bookmakers left....but there hasn't been a computer program powerful enough yet to pick winners regularly enough to win money....but humans can do it.
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Ok clearly not on the WUM here so happy to discuss.

You’re absolutely correct interpretation of the data is paramount but if you’re willing to put in time you can learn quite a lot of things about data analysis in football and how to identify player types key metrics and what they mean etc.

What we are looking for is a reasonable profile of a players traits and a rough likelihood of them being able to display similar traits in other environments or systems. So I’m not always looking for 95th percentile players sometimes your looking for a high level 85+ but in worse circumstances/youth on their side.

If you know what you’re looking for and can interpret the data this is the easy bit. The hard bit is perfectly translating those over because people aren’t statistics they have emotions, problems etc.

You never look at the stats in isolation and instead need to look at them in certain groupings to determine player type and then crucially you need to watch them play but you cannot dismiss the data for being in an easier league when you can see the data holds up for long periods of time (365 days). This reduces the likelihood of the statistic to be filled with anomalies and instead gives a more rounded view of the profile of the player in their given system.

We could go further into data analysis but it would need its own thread and more time than I have this evening. But if you are interested there are plenty of taster courses online you can try out to learn more.

marktan said:
You're 100% correct.

I read an article about Mathew Benham (Brentford owner) and he talks about the use of data which they're known for. Says it has a lot of noise, and two crucial bits of information are needed in addition:
1) The eye test as you say, which I'd also increase in scope to include whether the players style of play would fit into the team you're trying to build / a modern top team
2) The context of the team and league the player plays for, which affects the underlying stats of the player.

It was in this article https://atthematch.com/article/a-profile-of-brentfords-owner-matthew-benham
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Absolutely and this is often missed by the casual viewer.
 
Lentwood said:
I don't know what I am supposed to take from information though? It's one thing having a tonne of Data but interpreting it in a manner which produces useful results is exceptionally difficult. Which of those statistics am I meant to be using to determine whether this lad is going to be an elite Premier League forward player?

How, for example, do you qualify an 81.3% passing success rate in the relatively calmer waters of the Bundesliga and determine what that passing success rate might look like in the Premier League, against City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham etc...? How do we know how Jadon Sancho's statistics might have compared with Nkunku's statistics, had they swapped teams this season?

I am a huge fan of horse racing and I could give you a subscription to a Database which contains every single piece of information about a horse you could care to imagine. How fast it ran each race in fps, how fast it ran each furlong, how that compares with the average, it's stride length and frequency, it's finishing sectionals, it's times against standard, it's height, weight, colour, age, performance in every single race, bloodline etc....

99.99% of people couldn't do anything useful with that Data, though. If anything, I think they would end up losing even more money than if they just backed horses based on the far more limited information available in the Racing Post.

Generally, Data and statistics are 75% of the puzzle and experience and the "eye test" make-up that crucial 25%. I'll be criticised for saying that, but if I were wrong, we wouldn't bother with Scouts and all of our players would be selected by a computer algorithm. Likewise, if interrogating Data and statistics alone could pick the winner of a horse race, there would be no bookmakers left....but there hasn't been a computer program powerful enough yet to pick winners regularly enough to win money....but humans can do it.
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"Calmer waters" compared to the PL? In terms of passing success? I think you have a few serious misconceptions about football in Bundesliga.
 
Hansi Fick said:
"Calmer waters" compared to the PL? In terms of passing success? I think you have a few serious misconceptions about football in Bundesliga.
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He absolutely does but I think he might be open to learning a bit. Don’t think he’s on the wind up.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
Huge difference is that in the last 5 years data and sporting analysis has exploded so it’s now far easier for anyone including fans to objectively rate players. Of all the players I’ve seriously backed in the last 2 years for various roles most of them have gone on to be very successful at their respective clubs.

It’s so much easier to now spot what is a good player and who will suit what you need.

In fact I’ll quite happily give you a free choice of any top club and any position and I’ll be able to find you a comparable player for that same role based on their profile.

If you want to have an opinion that isn’t ridiculed inform yourself more of the topic you’re discussing.

This is why Nkunku is a low risk move relative to other players:
https://fbref.com/en/players/7c56da38/Christopher-Nkunku

This is why Antony is riskier but with a high upside:
https://fbref.com/en/players/99127249/Antony

Most people now aren’t plucking names out of thin air from hipster leagues.
Click to expand...

Or even better than going from stats, get an opinion of a player by watching them a few timesusing your eyes.

There is an absolute tactical and statistical obsession in the modern game. "So and so cant play in alow block" "they are a numbe r6 not a number 8" "they have more interceptions in zone blah than other players"

Of coruse the game is more technical and tactical than ever, especially in the premiership, I would say the difference in stlye between all the leagues in Europe is smaller than before......but quality players should be well rounded in all areas, I think for example midfield wise Gerrard seems to be one of the last ones none of this talk was attributed too, he was a quality midfielder that could defend, attack, cross, shoot, tackle....Of coruse players of this quality are few and far between but look at some of our great sides and they were about attitude, belief, work rate, tempo and working as a team attackign and defending.

I see you make a lot of good posts on here, so this isnt aimed at yourself....but I swear lots of people give these in depth expert opinions on players from reading just the type of material you mention without even seeing a player perform, just a youtube video and a press link makign them flavour of the month
 
The evolving conversation reminds me of a story I read a few years ago about a player called Zinedine Zidane (some of you might have heard of him) who at the age of 24 was still on the books of Bordeaux in the French top flight. And as the story goes, he was offered to Blackburn in the mid 90s and they turned him down because they had Tim Sherwood. Newcastle were also offered the chance to sign the 24 year old Zidane , but didn't take up the offer due to him not being good enough for the league.

Not sure what came of the ex Bordeaux player, but Nkunku at least has made progress by leaving for the German Bundesliga at a younger age and making his mark.
 
Lentwood said:
Clearly not :lol:

Point still stands though...we're talking about this bloke and I keep seeing this 'Antony' bloke talked about constantly on this forum....how many players have come directly from the Bundesliga or the Eredivisie in recent years and made an impact at a top club? It's not many and those that have tend to have played regularly in their National team and the Champions League (i.e. Gundogan)

I'm concerned that ETH might be tempted to fill the squad with mediocre Dutch/German players and address too many positions at once. I also keep hearing talk of him bringing DvdB back...it would be a huge mistake, he's just nowhere near good enough.

Again, I (clearly) haven't seen the bloke play, but if he's good enough to lead the line for Manchester United, then why does he only have two caps for France? Anthony Martial has 30!
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De Bruyne is pretty well.
 
Hansi Fick said:
"Calmer waters" compared to the PL? In terms of passing success? I think you have a few serious misconceptions about football in Bundesliga.
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I assume you don't dispute that the Bundesliga is weaker than the Premier League though?

So my point is, how do you translate and compare statistics from one league to another,

As I said, Data and statistics is something I am very interested in, but after a decade studying them in the context of horse racing, I am firmly of the opinion statistics and Data can be incredibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

I spent years trying to create a "perfect" model for rating a horses performance so I could rate and compare the performance of a horse over 7F on soft ground at Newmarket against the performance of a horse over 6F on firm ground at Chester but it doesnt ever work. If you take the numbers literally and don't use your eye and experience, you will lose.

So going back to the point of this thread...occasionally in horse racing I will see a horse suddenly post an exceptional performance or "number" that is an outlier from the average. Very occasionally, this horse genuinely has improved, but 90% of the time the horse benefitted from some kind of unseen advantage or set of circumstances that resulted in a well above average performance that can never be replicated.

My concern with Nkunku is as follows....at face-value, his career statistics have not been standout before this season. He's had just the two caps for France. He is 24 and (no disrespect to Leipzig) hasnt been snapped up by a "big" club.

So, going back to racing, if I see a horse who has ran 25 times between CL4 and CL5 races suddenly post a performance that would rate as a CL2 performance, seemingly out of nowhere, I dismiss it. Because for every 1 time I am wrong to dismiss it, I am right 9 times. So i dont need to watch the performance or consider backing the horse. I intrinsically know the vast majority of 5yo horses don't suddenly improve 20lbs in one run. Likewise, I don't need to watch hours of video footage to say generally that 24yo strikers/CAMs with one standout season under their belt and who turn 25 in 5-months dont, as a general rule, become elite players.

So, there are people on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to using Data and statistics to assess a footballer...but purely at face vale, I would question is a lad who will be 25 early in next season really an elite talent or going to become an elite talent?

Genuine question for @BenitoSTARR - how did Depay's stats look? Or DvdB? Or Pepe? Or Jadon Sancho? Or Timo Werner?

Did they standout? Would you have recommended signing these players based on their statistics?
 
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Lentwood said:
I assume you don't dispute that the Bundesliga is weaker than the Premier League though?

So my point is, how do you translate and compare statistics from one league to another,

As I said, Data and statistics is something I am very interested in, but after a decade studying them in the context of horse racing, I am firmly of the opinion statistics and Data can be incredibly dangerous in the wrong hands.

I spent years trying to create a "perfect" model for rating a horses performance so I could rate and compare the performance of a horse over 7F on soft ground at Newmarket against the performance of a horse over 6F on firm ground at Chester but it doesnt ever work. If you take the numbers literally and don't use your eye and experience, you will lose.

So going back to the point of this thread...occasionally in horse racing I will see a horse suddenly post an exceptional performance or "number" that is an outlier from the average. Very occasionally, this horse genuinely has improved, but 90% of the time the horse benefitted from some kind of unseen advantage or set of circumstances that resulted in a well above average performance that can never be replicated.

My concern with Nkunku is as follows....at face-value, his career statistics have not been standout before this season. He's had just the two caps for France. He is 24 and (no disrespect to Leipzig) hasnt been snapped up by a "big" club.

So, there are people on this forum who are far more knowledgeable than me when it comes to using Data and statistics to assess a footballer...but purely at face vale, I would question is a lad who will be 25 early in next season really an elite talent or going to become an elite talent?

Genuine question for @BenitoSTARR - how did Depay's stats look? Or DvdB? Or Pepe? Or Jadon Sancho? Or Timo Werner?

Did they standout? Would you have recommended signing these players based on their statistics?
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Was Salah really that great at Roma at 24? Was Mané really that great at Southampton at 24?
 
Lentwood said:
Well, let's see. As usual, people don't want to debate the general point being made and just go straight to "oh, well player x had very few international caps and they were great". Again, not the point being made (specifically) and nobody ever said there aren't exceptions that prove the general rule.

One more time, I'll say it...IF Nkuku is an elite striker, or has the potential to be one, why, when he will be 25 in 5-months, has he largely been ignored by France and is still playing for RB Leipzig? Nobody has answered that. I'm not interested in a few YouTube videos, I can make any player look good in a series of two-minute clips. It's not about 'player X must categorically have achieved Y by Z', it's about asking the very logical and reasonable question - why has this lad been ignored for nearly half of his career?

Just a reminder the point is that we are quick to write-off some of the players we have but I'm not convinced at all that some posters understand 'levels' in football when they ask for the likes of Shaw and Maguire to be sold and recommend we sign players like Timber or Nkuku or whoever.

The mistake I have made really is posting this in the Nkuku thread, so it seems like a personal attack (although I stated I had never seen him play in my first post). It's a general point about the difficulty of finding players who are better than what we have, with the budgets we have, and given the fact that all clubs will add "United tax"
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So you repeat the same thing and when people gives you examples of players who are elite but were playing in Bundesliga or French league, they are exceptions. Maybe you should stop with your narrow mindedness about other leagues and stop beating "omg PL is GOAT" thing. PL best players are all signed from other leagues like French league, Bundesliga, La Liga.

You haven't seen player, you didn't even know position but you are somehow qualified to talk and argue about how good or bad the player is based on some made up criteria which failed with just couple of examples.
 
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Lentwood said:
It's not about rejecting Nkuku specifically. Go through this forum now and see how many lists there are of "United must sign these 5 players"....and they are almost all exclusively hipster signings from the Eredivisie, Ligue Un and the Bundesliga
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Maybe because PL best players comes from Bundesliga, French league. Not from PL.
 
macheda14 said:
Was Salah really that great at Roma at 24? Was Mané really that great at Southampton at 24?
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I would say yes...

Search my post history. I advocated signing Mane several times fŕom Southampton.

Didn't Salah score some outrageous number of goals for Roma in Serie A?

I'm sorry if people are getting upset because I'm being critical of the Bundesliga, I am sure there are some very good sides....but there are also a good number of very weak sides who also play an open style of football. In my opinion, scoring the number of goals Salah did for Roma in Serie A is impressive because attackers haven't ever generally posted big numbers in Serie A
 
roonster09 said:
Maybe because PL best players comes from Bundesliga, French league. Not from PL.
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Of course there are tonnes of great Dutch, German and French players playing in the Premier League...but as a general rule, the elite players move away from Holland/Germany/France earlier than 24/25*

*unless, of course, they play for Bayern/PSG and possibly Dortmund in the recent past
 
Lentwood said:
I would say yes...

Search my post history. I advocated signing Mane several times fŕom Southampton.

Didn't Salah score some outrageous number of goals for Roma in Serie A?

I'm sorry if people are getting upset because I'm being critical of the Bundesliga, I am sure there are some very good sides....but there are also a good number of very weak sides who also play an open style of football. In my opinion, scoring the number of goals Salah did for Roma in Serie A is impressive because attackers haven't ever generally posted big numbers in Serie A
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The short answer is no.
 
roonster09 said:
So you repeat the same thing and when people gives you examples of players who are elite but were playing in Bundesliga or French league, they are exceptions. Maybe you should stop with your narrow mindedness about other leagues and stop beating "omg PL is GOAT" thing. PL best players are all signed from other leagues like French league, Bundesliga, La Liga.

You haven't seen player, you didn't even know position but you are somehow qualified to talk and argue about how good or bad the player is based on some made up criteria which failed with just couple of examples.
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Because, for the millionth time, it's not about Nkunku specifically, its about these nonsense lists I keep seeing popping up of "must-signs" to replace players like Maguire, Shaw and Fernandes.
 
Lentwood said:
I would say yes...

Search my post history. I advocated signing Mane several times from Southampton.

Didn't Salah score some outrageous number of goals for Roma in Serie A?

I'm sorry if people are getting upset because I'm being critical of the Bundesliga, I am sure there are some very good sides....but there are also a good number of very weak sides who also play an open style of football. In my opinion, scoring the number of goals Salah did for Roma in Serie A is impressive because attackers haven't ever generally posted big numbers in Serie A
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Don't know how this is anything but an outdated cliché considering which Premier League flops manage to put up great numbers in Italy (see Lukaku, Abraham, etc.)
 
Lentwood said:
Because, for the millionth time, it's not about Nkunku specifically, its about these nonsense lists I keep seeing popping up of "must-signs" to replace players like Maguire, Shaw and Fernandes.
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And people are telling you that you keep showing your complete lack of knowledge about anything relating to Football. I mean here you listed what are two PL flops and a player that comes from a league that is inferior to the Bundesliga.
 
JPRouve said:
The short answer is no.
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Almost one in two over two seasons for Roma in Serie A age 23 and 24

Now, I am 32 so my knowledge might be outdated, but growing up watching Football Italia, getting 15/20 goals in Serie A was exceptional.

Genuinely, what's the standard now? How many do the top five goalscorers usually get?
 
Lentwood said:
Almost one in two over two seasons for Roma in Serie A age 23 and 24

Now, I am 32 so my knowledge might be outdated, but growing up watching Football Italia, getting 15/20 goals in Serie A was exceptional.

Genuinely, what's the standard now? How many do the top five goalscorers usually get?
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Which isn't outrageous, he had 4 or 5 players scoring more than he did and 14-15 goals in Serie won't see you anywhere near the top goal scorer. Serie A hasn't been a low goalscoring league in more than a decade. The low end of the top 5 is around 15-19 goals and the top goalscorer is anywhere between 27 and 35 goals.
 
Lentwood said:
Almost one in two over two seasons for Roma in Serie A age 23 and 24

Now, I am 32 so my knowledge might be outdated, but growing up watching Football Italia, getting 15/20 goals in Serie A was exceptional.

Genuinely, what's the standard now? How many do the top five goalscorers usually get?
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Ciro Immobile has averaged more than 20 league goals a season in Serie A over 6 years now.

You are purely talking in cliché about Serie A defences, it’s a very open league for more than half a decade already. You have to go back to sth like 15/16 to have a season where the total goals scored was below 1000. They average 2.7-3 goals per match.
 
Lentwood said:
Because, for the millionth time, it's not about Nkunku specifically, its about these nonsense lists I keep seeing popping up of "must-signs" to replace players like Maguire, Shaw and Fernandes.
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The same nonsense list also had players like Gundogan, Dias, KdB, Cancelo and many great players our rivals signed.

So you see must-sign list and started posting randomly without even knowing the player or his position.
 
Lentwood said:
Of course there are tonnes of great Dutch, German and French players playing in the Premier League...but as a general rule, the elite players move away from Holland/Germany/France earlier than 24/25*

*unless, of course, they play for Bayern/PSG and possibly Dortmund in the recent past
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Yeah, now I will give you the list and it will be exception to the rule.

Again, there is no rule. It's just a lazy assumption with 0 effort, it's something you expect to see from shit pundits like Merson.
 
JPRouve said:
And people are telling you that you keep showing your complete lack of knowledge about anything relating to Football. I mean here you listed what are two PL flops and a player that comes from a league that is inferior to the Bundesliga.
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The phrase "two PL flops" almost sums up my point entirely in a nutshell.

You label Maguire and Shaw as flops but they are unbelievably good players.

If you don't believe/understand how good those two players are, then you have summed up my entire point better than I have been able to.
 
Lentwood said:
If you take the numbers literally and don't use your eye and experience, you will lose.
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See, here's the problem: you're not using your eyes at all, you think attacking midfielders are center backs. And you're actually using the most superficial stats - such as caps for France - to pass strong verdicts on players. For good measure you also sprinkle your "analysis" with some wild, very broad and outdated stereotypes.

But the fun part is that apparently you think this is all reasonable and you are in a position to lecture people about sensible player evaluation.
 
Lentwood said:
The phrase "two PL flops" almost sums up my point entirely in a nutshell.

You label Maguire and Shaw as flops but they are unbelievably good players.

If you don't believe/understand how good those two players are, then you have summed up my entire point better than I have been able to.
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Maguire and Shaw are unbelievably good players?
 
Lentwood said:
The phrase "two PL flops" almost sums up my point entirely in a nutshell.

You label Maguire and Shaw as flops but they are unbelievably good players.

If you don't believe/understand how good those two players are, then you have summed up my entire point better than I have been able to.
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I think the fact you describe Shaw and Maguire as unbelievably good players is enough reason to take your opinions on Nkunku with a pinch of salt
 
Lentwood said:
The phrase "two PL flops" almost sums up my point entirely in a nutshell.

You label Maguire and Shaw as flops but they are unbelievably good players.

If you don't believe/understand how good those two players are, then you have summed up my entire point better than I have been able to.
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Except they aren't. Shaw has been really good at times - especially last season and then at the Euros but really poor this season. Maguire was pretty good last and then rubbish this season.

Nobody would call either unbelievably good.
 
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