[roonster09]

I am not in total disagreement with you here. I actually my point is not exactly far from yours. Just that Ole's plan is not good for the exempt he received for his mess up.

I agree with this part, I dont rate Lindelof at all, so at least with benefit of hindsight, it was a wrong move. We should bring make Smalling or at least replace Lindelof with better CB.

 

[gajender]

My genuine question to posters who have watched Smalling in Italy and I haven't and believe he has been great success there then why Roma according to reports are low balling us with offers of around €15 m and why there are no other suitors for him in Italy or here in England.

 

[mu4c_20le]

My genuine question to posters who have watched Smalling in Italy and I haven't and believe he has been great success there then why Roma according to reports are low balling us with offers of around €15 m and why there are no other suitors for him in Italy or here in England.

His age would be the biggest reason, as well as Roma being actually skint.

 

[andersj]

I actually think Smalling + Maguire would be our best CB pairing as Smalling's pace would cover for Maguire a lot

Imagine that right side! Playing out from the back with Smalling and AWB next to eachother. Sounds like a Pep nightmare.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Imagine that right side! Playing out from the back with Smalling and AWB next to eachother. Sounds like a Pep nightmare.

Ole did buy AWB himself.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I am not in total disagreement with you here. I actually see that my point is not exactly far from yours. Just that Ole's plan is not good for the exemption he received for his mess up.

When there is a plan, it's not gonna change by few occasions very soon. It took so much shit show from Pereira, Lingard, Mata in central position, and both Pogba & McTominay long injuries for Matic to be reestablished as a starter; and finally got Bruno Fernandes deal over the finishing line. Ole can be one hell of stubborn person, too.

I agree with these a lot.

 

[ti vu]

My genuine question to posters who have watched Smalling in Italy and I haven't and believe he has been great success there then why Roma according to reports are low balling us with offers of around €15 m and why there are no other suitors for him in Italy or here in England.

I don't call Smalling time with Roma as great success. It's same old Smalling. Same ability with same flaw. Our situation is that we can make use of that ability while his same flaw ain't as liable as it's made out to be, seeing this team doesn't play the same kind of possession football that can justifying Smalling as deadwood.

Beside Juventus, €15 mil is still a good money for the rest of the league, where they're still having plenty of these accountants' creativity deal going around. Roma already paid us €3 mil loan fee. Smalling is on a very good wage, especially for a CB in Italy. His age is a factor meaning he would has very little resale value for Roma. So not exactly a cheap deal.

Regarding PL club interest, we know PL clubs prefer not to sell to rivals, as well as style of play. With all that in mind, PL options for Smalling is limited. It's not like we can just sell Smalling to relegation battlers and Smalling has no say n it. Smalling can choose where he would want to go. Roma came into the scene and offered a good option for both the club and Smalling.

Smalling was rumored to attract attention from both Milan clubs. Just Google it. Smalling was speaking in a press conference saying he didn't want any distraction when being questioned!

 

[andersj]

Ole did buy AWB himself.

He did.

 

[AshRK]

That's how it works though. We seem to naturally overrate transfer targets and the like, and once they come to the club are underwhelmed by the reality.

This time it just happened in reverse, but it shows that perhaps if Smalling had never played for us, and we had never seen all his flaws week in week out, he'd have been much higher rated. Maybe also showing that some of the players we think are "shite" and the like, aren't really that bad and would be higher rated if they were at another club.

I understand that mentality that grass is always greener other side but still the overrating of smalling is quite amusing. People act as if we let go of prime rio or vidic when in reality many even in the blog were sick of him and knew we couldn't reach the next level with him. Again, not saying he was a bad defender, I feel he could still have done a job for us but it wasn't a huge loss like some make it seem.

Again people saying he is better than Maguire, well if he was that better then he would have been still here or would have been a target of a big club than roma (irrespective of how crap his ball playing ability was). Let us not forget City were after Maguire and were willing to pay up to 60m for him. I still believe city would have been in a better position with Maguire than not this season, anyways that is a different topic.

I am not going to pretend I watch roma week in week out but I have seen some highlights and watched odd games when they play big guns and I don't see him as someone who would have taken us to the next level.

 

[He'sRaldo]

He did.

That's one case where Ole has valued defensive ability over technique and playing out.

I wonder why he didn't use Smalling and buy a more attacking RB. Makes more sense than a more defensive RB and attacking CB.

 

[A-man]

Agree 100%. He is easily our best defender, other than his ball-playing skills. The only thing the other defenders have over him is passing the ball around. Not that his ball-playing skill cost us in a big way.

This is obviously not true. If people had watched Roma and Smalling with the same forensic approach as they watch Lindelof and Maguire, they would have seen that he is not the great defender they think he is, and definitely not “easily our best defender”. Besides, it’s modern football with high press we’re talking about. You can’t just disregard skills with the ball.

This team was rank average before we signed Bruno, so don't be fooled by them. You can't be watching these performances by these defenders and think there's any greatness in them especially for a front foot team.

I’m not sure what you mean with this? It looks like we finally got our midfield working thanks to Bruno. That unleashed the goal scoring. But still the defence has been great. During the 19 games we scored 50 goals and conceded 8, or something like that. Many clean sheets. I’m happy with that. Don’t see how it could have been so much better with Smalling. If that is the kind of football we plan to play, then the CBs seem to fit and support that football very well (50-8).

 

[andersj]

So there is a case where Ole has valued defensive ability over technique and playing out. Makes you wonder why he didn't just use Smalling and buy a more attacking RB.

Or maybe he just got AWB wrong? Thought it was more about Palace.

Anyway, we have been trying to play out from the back the last few games so it is clearly something he want us to do. And to be fair, a club like Man Utd should. Do not look good. Would be even worse, probably a lost cause, with Smalling.

I will also note that being poor attacking wide and in build up is not the same. AWB is alot worse in the build up play than the final third (not saying he is great in the final third either). And I actually do think it is more important that the CB is good in the buildup than the RB.

 

[A-man]

His age would be the biggest reason, as well as Roma being actually skint.

Also think it is the age. He has been out three times for injuries this season, and there is always a risk to buy a 30+ player.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I think Ole wants Smalling to stay but as a 4th choice and Smalling probably refused. Smalling is good in defending and if anything he's also very good dealing with crossings. The first goal and third goal against Chelsea won't happen if Smalling actually plays, he has aggressiveness, strength & quick to deal in that type situation and we won't conceded that last minute from corner vs Southampton if Smalling takes the Lindelof's place.

Smalling's ball distribution isn't bad as well. However, his main issue is that he lacks composure when on the ball. He can't do like this:

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That's one case where Ole has valued defensive ability over technique and playing out.

I wonder why he didn't use Smalling and buy a more attacking RB. Makes more sense than a more defensive RB and attacking CB.

Bissaka is still young and he has plenty of time to make improvement through coaching. Smalling is the opposite, at his age, don't think he can improve to his weakness.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Or maybe he just got AWB wrong? Thought it was more about Palace.

Anyway, we have been trying to play out from the back the last few games so it is clearly something he want us to do. And to be fair, a club like Man Utd should. Do not look good. Would be even worse, probably a lost cause, with Smalling.

Yeah, to be fair I think AWB has gotten a lot of stick and isn't as bad as has been made out.

As @ti vu said, the decision-making probably wouldn't have been scrutinized that closely if the sums weren't astronomical and the gain seemingly not that much in comparison. Ideally we should at least one Van Dijk level CB and one Maguire/Smalling level CB, but we ended up with a Maguire level CB and a Lindelof level CB after the money spent and the decisions made.

And you're right about playing out, but that can be done with an average level technical CB as well (as we saw under LVG). The DM's still come very deep to collect the ball off the CB's, something that people blamed on a lack of ball playing CB's in the past. That shows that even with technical CB's it's still more of a structural thing than purely technical.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Imagine that right side! Playing out from the back with Smalling and AWB next to eachother. Sounds like a Pep nightmare.

You have a point. But then I'm not a huge fan of AWB anyway so I don't think he will be first choice for many more seasons.

Laird will be better than him soon. That kid can actually trap a ball, pass and take people on as well as defend well.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Bissaka is still young and he has plenty of time to make improvement through coaching. Smalling is the opposite, at his age, don't think he can improve to his weakness.

Yeah I don't expect Smalling to improve much there. I do think he could still have been a net positive, but at this point it's academic isn't it.

 

[ti vu]

I understand that mentality that grass is always greener other side but still the overrating of smalling is quite amusing. People act as if we let go of prime rio or vidic when in reality many even in the blog were sick of him and knew we couldn't reach the next level with him. Again, not saying he was a bad defender, I feel he could still have done a job for us but it wasn't a huge loss like some make it seem.

Again people saying he is better than Maguire, well if he was that better then he would have been still here or would have been a target of a big club than roma (irrespective of how crap his ball playing ability was). Let us not forget City were after Maguire and were willing to pay up to 60m for him. I still believe city would have been in a better position with Maguire than not this season, anyways that is a different topic.

I am not going to pretend I watch roma week in week out but I have seen some highlights and watched odd games when they play big guns and I don't see him as someone who would have taken us to the next level.

The thing is you sounded like you think we're on course to the next level, when as of right now, we're just going sideway ability wise as a team while changing player profile. There is no structural next level change in our style.

Bailly, Alexis, Fred were wanted by Pep's City, it doesn't prove anything regarding Maguire. They may fit Pep's style better like John Stones (much) better than someone like Smalling, doesn't mean the player's quality itself. The underlying point is the system, the philosophy of the manager. Pep has a blueprint, while Ole hasn't shown any kind of resemblance in playing style even to first Pep season at City. Even when we're not making individual mistake, our system would be tactically picked apart by some textbook play. Comparing that to Pep where team were solely exploit on personnels's weakness, individual mistake, rather than fighting fire with fire (style, possession).

 

[andersj]

You have a point. But then I'm not a huge fan of AWB anyway so I don't think he will be first choice for many more seasons.

Laird will be better than him soon. That kid can actually trap a ball, pass and take people on as well as defend well.

I agree but the injuries are a big worry. And I really trust the coaching team as well (in terms of judging talents). It is so easy when you see them every day next to eachother.

Do not know why they have not pushed him forward more. Immature maybe? Looks like a huuuuuge talent!

 

[ti vu]

I think Ole wants Smalling to stay but as a 4th choice and Smalling probably refused. Smalling is good in defending and if anything he's also very good dealing with crossings. The first goal and third goal against Chelsea won't happen if Smalling actually plays, he has aggressiveness, strength & quick to deal in that type situation and we won't conceded that last minute from corner vs Southampton if Smalling takes the Lindelof's place.

Smalling's ball distribution isn't bad as well. However, his main issue is that he lacks composure when on the ball. He can't do like this:

You're comparing apple to orange, and missing the point.

Pep would be crazy with that sequence of play: Maguire doesn't involve the GK as passing option thus outnumbering opposition in 2 occasion. Good on ball ability, but took unnecessarily risk for nothing. Next Fred has time to look before receiving the pass, and turn; but didn't. Ended up with Maguire switching play and opposition team could challenge for that ball (Looked like Ashley Young lost that duel too). The outcome didn't show the issue about beating the pressing!

This kind of sequence still happens nowadays. Can't blame DDG, Lindelof positioned well, why the distrust in teammates?

Here we have 2 players known to be pursued by Pep's City! They have ability, but the missing point is coaching instruction. Even players eventually got the boot from Pep, would get them to follow his instructions. They can make individual mistake like Koralov John Stones did in his first season at City. They're still involved heavily, since they're following the tactical work Pep wanted.

So the question remains: is Ole having such style that demand such on ball ability, that justifying deeming certain other players as deadwood? Why someone like DDG is given this long and expensive contract, when a GK with great distribution should be the next thing on the list if modernizing our style is really our goal?

 

[AshRK]

The thing is you sounded like you think we're on course to the next level, when as of right now, we're just going sideway ability wise as a team while changing player profile. There is no structural next level change in our style.

Bailly, Alexis, Fred were wanted by Pep's City, it doesn't prove anything regarding Maguire. They may fit Pep's style better like John Stones (much) better than someone like Smalling, doesn't mean the player quality itself. The underlying point is the system, the philosophy of the manager. Pep has a blueprint, while Ole hasn't shown any kind of resembles in playing style even to first Pep season at City. Even when we're not making individual mistake, our system would be tactically picked apart by some textbook play. Comparing that to Pep where team were solely exploit on personnels weakness than fighting fire with fire (style).

Yes Lindelof and Maguire may not be the answer and we may end up replacing Lindelof or god forbid both in future but still don't get how and why smalling is the answer. It's like going backwards if we are going to have him back. Again repeating this point if smalling was that better than Maguire then he would have beem here irrespective of how crap his ball playong ability or atleast there would have been multiple big clubs after him.

I may share a different opinion to you all but for me the overrating of smalling is pretty amusing.

 

[devips]

This playing from the back. I don't see it much particularly with Lindelof. Most of the time he passes sideways to Maquire, as Smalling was prone to do. Smalling, apart from being a better defender, was far more dangerous from set pieces than either Lindelof and Maquire.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You're comparing apple to orange, and missing the point.

Pep would be crazy with that sequence of play: Maguire doesn't involve the GK as passing option thus outnumbering opposition in 2 occasion. Good on ball ability, but took unnecessarily risk for nothing. Next Fred has time to look before receiving the pass, and turn; but didn't. Ended up with Maguire switching play and opposition team could challenge for that ball (Looked like Ashley Young lost that duel too). The outcome didn't show the issue about beating the pressing!

This kind of sequence still happens nowadays. Can't blame DDG, Lindelof positioned well, why the distrust in teammates?

Here we have 2 players known to be pursued by Pep's City! They have ability, but the missing point is coaching instruction. Even players eventually got the boot from Pep, would get them to follow his instructions. They can make individual mistake like Koralov John Stones did in his first season at City. They're still involved heavily, since they're following the tactical work Pep wanted.

So the question remains: is Ole having such style that demand such on ball ability, that justifying deeming certain other players as deadwood? Why someone like DDG is given this long and expensive contract, when a GK with great distribution should be the next thing on the list if modernizing our style is really our goal?

What the feck are you on about. You are stretching way off the topic. I was talking about Smalling inability to stay compose in possession.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

This playing from the back. I don't see it much particularly with Lindelof. Most of the time he passes sideways to Maquire, as Smalling was prone to do. Smalling, apart from being a better defender, was far more dangerous from set pieces than either Lindelof and Maquire.

Agree on this. However Lindelof can keep compose on possession which allow us to maintain possession while Smalling will end up giving it away more if he's pressed.

 

[ti vu]

Yes Lindelof and Maguire may not be the answer and we may end up replacing Lindelof or god forbid both in future but still don't get how and why smalling is the answer. It's like going backwards if we are going to have him back. Again repeating this point if smalling was that better than Maguire then he would have beem here irrespective of how crap his ball playong ability or atleast there would have been multiple big clubs after him.

I may share a different opinion to you all but for me the overrating of smalling is pretty amusing.

Smalling is in no way the answer for future. No other CBs either, GK, even FBs. The point being, at this moment, we're yet to see a blueprint of style. We're still in the middle of the road so thing can swing either way again. So Smalling is not that liable in such situation.

As for transfer, we can only go by gossip. Smalling is not short of suitor with Milan clubs, Tottenham, Arsenal all being reported in past months showing interest.

I'm called a Smalling basher myself in the past, so if anyone overrating Smalling, it's definitely not me.

 

[ti vu]

What the feck are you on about. You are stretching way off the topic. I was talking about Smalling inability to stay compose in possession.

Let me repeat it again: if you don't have a style to make use of A B C abilities, it means feck all.

So what is so great about Maguire's composure in that sequence of play? Did we beat the pressing and cut opposition wide open? Or it turned out to be a flashy display of individual skill but same old losing possession and continued being pressed? Reach a solution or just paying millions on new players for similar flashier mess.

Smalling lack ability on ball doesn't mean he just gave out possession to opposition for fun. Stats proves that.

 

[andersj]

Ideally we should at least one Van Dijk level CB and one Maguire/Smalling level CB,

I agree that we needed a Rio/Vidic, but that player was not available. I actually think Maguire, while not being a Rio/Vidic, was a significant improvement on Smalling.

This is one of our best defensive records in a long time. Even more so if you look at shots and chances conceeded. Despite de Gea making quite a few errors we are level with Man City in terms of «goals against». It will probably (and hopefully) be an improvement of more than 15 goals from last year. That is huge!

At the same time, Roma are having one of their worst seasons the last decade in terms of «goals against». The level in Serie A is also significantly below the Premier League at the moment. Playing for a side like Roma in Serie A you would expect a player aspiring to play for Man Utd in the PL to make a big positive difference. Instead, Romas defence have been getting worse.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Let me repeat it again: if you don't have a style to make use of A B C abilities, it means feck all.

So what is so great about Maguire's composure in that sequence of play? Did we beat the pressing and cut opposition wide open? Or it turned out to be a flashy display of individual skill but same old losing possession and continued being pressed.

You're ridiculous. You're using one moment in the clip to make conclusion without knowing what happened.

Let me tell & show you something what happened from that sequence of play. We managed to keep possession in a tight situation, managed to play the ball from the back to forward & from that play we created chance. Have a look the extend of the clip. Did we beat the pressing and cut opposition wide open? Answer is YES!

 

[ti vu]

You're ridiculous. You're using one moment in the clip to make conclusion without knowing what happened.

Let me tell & show you something what happened from that sequence of play. We managed to keep possession in a tight situation, managed to play the ball from the back to forward & from that play we created chance. Have a look the extend of the clip. Did we beat the pressing and cut opposition wide open? Answer is YES!

So what's this kind of style we should call it? Possession, percentage let opposition touch the ball one football?

That's some genius coaching right there calculating in opposition touch as part of the its own team passing pattern. Please do give more example of us replicating this pattern of play, letting the opposition touch the ball passing it to our players.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

So what's this kind of style we should call it? Possession, percentage let opposition touch the ball one football?

That's some genius coaching right there calculating in opposition touch as part of the its own team passing pattern. Please do give more example of us replicating this pattern of play, letting the opposition touch the ball passing it to our players.

Direct football. That's United way. Possession is never our style, playing from the back doesn't mean playing possession.

On the ball we will try to supply the ball to our creative player while the creative player will play key passes to our attackers. When off the ball we will play counter attack with the same concept that we will play direct to the attackers after we won the ball back. When you are playing direct, there is always risk to lose possession.

 

[RedStarUnited]

This playing from the back. I don't see it much particularly with Lindelof. Most of the time he passes sideways to Maquire, as Smalling was prone to do. Smalling, apart from being a better defender, was far more dangerous from set pieces than either Lindelof and Maquire.

Its not about passing sideways. Smalling just looks awkward as hell on the ball. Worse version of AWB.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Smalling is still a problem against high press though which collectively as a team, we have problems dealing with.

Lindelof, Mag and Bailly are better suited in dealing high press than him.

Smalling is best when we faced top teams that doesn't do good high press and the park-the-bus teams.
Would also explain how he's suited to LVG's and Mou's football despite the lack of on-the-ball abilities.

 

[Isotope]

Yes Lindelof and Maguire may not be the answer and we may end up replacing Lindelof or god forbid both in future but still don't get how and why smalling is the answer. It's like going backwards if we are going to have him back. Again repeating this point if smalling was that better than Maguire then he would have beem here irrespective of how crap his ball playong ability or atleast there would have been multiple big clubs after him.

I may share a different opinion to you all but for me the overrating of smalling is pretty amusing.

I think it was discussed on other thread. It depends on our plan next season. Are we going to buy an upcoming talent CB (that may cost 50+m) or not? If yes, there's no reason to have Smalling back. If not, having Smalling back is priority, instead of getting 15-20m from his sale.

 

[ti vu]

Direct football. That's United way. Possession is never our style, playing from the back doesn't mean playing possession.

On the ball we will try to supply the ball to our creative player while the creative player will play key passes to our attackers. When off the ball we will play counter attack with the same concept that we will play direct to the attackers after we won the ball back. When you are playing direct, there is always risk to lose possession.

K. I see your point.

So Smalling was bought and nurtured by SAF when he's still young, did SAF not understand the United way? Let's not forget SAF with Rio Vida and VDS (ball playing GK), couldn't beat the pressing against Pep Barcelona with us ending up shadow chasing.(Smalling was bought after that final in Rome. Why?). Are we not supposed to find a way to solve that issue instead of turning the wheel of history building same thing with worse personnels? Or are you suggesting we have better personnels now than back then, both/ either playing staffs and coaching staffs?

When the risk of conceding possession is higher in direct play, which would mean we would require more orthodox defenders right? So why do we have 2 slow(er than standard) defender, who also is not very good at man marking, 1vs1? One of which can be considered weak in several aspects of orthodox way of defending.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

K. I see your point.

So Smalling was bought and nurtured by SAF when he's still young. Did SAF not understanding the United way? Let's not forget SAF with Rio Vida and VDS (ball playing GK), couldn't beat the pressing against Pep Barcelona with us ending up shadow chasing. Are we not supposed to find a way to solve that issue instead of turning the wheel of history building same thing with worse personnels? Or are you suggesting we have better personnels now than back then, both/ either playing staffs and coaching staffs?

When the risk of conceding possession is higher in direct play, which would mean we would require more orthodox defenders right? So why do we have 2 slow(er than standard) defender, who also is not very good at man marking, 1vs1? One of which can be considered weak in several aspects of orthodox way of defending.

Back then club don't play from the back like right now. Football back then is completely different to football now. You are also forgetting that we have Anderson & 38 years old Giggs playing against Barcelona, not sure why Rio & Vidic alone is enough to beat team with such a quality like Barcelona. Such a ridiculous points of view, you are so desperate to win an argument without realising how ridiculous your point is.

When conceded possession from direct play, we can always win it from the midfield. Maguire was bought to offer composure & leadership in the team. Lindelof wasn't his signing.

 

[ti vu]

Back then club don't play from the back like right now. Football back then is completely different to football now. You are also forgetting that we have Anderson & 38 years old Giggs playing against Barcelona, not sure why Rio & Vidic alone is enough to beat team with such a quality like Barcelona. Such a ridiculous points of view, you are so desperate to win an argument without realising how ridiculous your point is.

When conceded possession from direct play, we can always win it from the midfield. Maguire was bought to offer composure & leadership in the team. Lindelof wasn't his signing.

K. I am being ridiculous, and "football back then is completely different to football now" is normal. Let's is leave this at that and let other people decide who is "so desperate to win an argument"

 

[Isotope]

I agree that we needed a Rio/Vidic, but that player was not available. I actually think Maguire, while not being a Rio/Vidic, was a significant improvement on Smalling.

This is one of our best defensive records in a long time. Even more so if you look at shots and chances conceeded. Despite de Gea making quite a few errors we are level with Man City in terms of «goals against». It will probably (and hopefully) be an improvement of more than 15 goals from last year. That is huge!

At the same time, Roma are having one of their worst seasons the last decade in terms of «goals against». The level in Serie A is also significantly below the Premier League at the moment. Playing for a side like Roma in Serie A you would expect a player aspiring to play for Man Utd in the PL to make a big positive difference. Instead, Romas defence have been getting worse.

Hah?? Smalling had been around when we've always had one of the best defensive record for years. That's with having two inverted/failed wingers as fullbacks.

2015/16 - Conceded 35 goals
2016/17 - 29
2017/18 - 28
2018/19 - 54
2019/20 - 35 goals, with 2 games to go

So this year could be the second worst defensively, in the last 5 years.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Hah?? Smalling had been around when we've always had one of the best defensive record for years. That's with having two inverted/failed wingers as fullbacks.

2015/16 - Conceded 35 goals
2016/17 - 29
2017/18 - 28
2018/19 - 54
2019/20 - 35 goals, with 2 games to go

So this year could be the second worst defensively, in the last 5 years.

I think 15/16 is much more fair comparison than 16/17 & 17/18. Team under Mourinho will always look good defensively, the guy can convince some people to believe Eric Dier will be a top centre back.

Either way. There is one massive difference here. DDG was on his prime saving everything back then.

 

[VeevaVee]

My genuine question to posters who have watched Smalling in Italy and I haven't and believe he has been great success there then why Roma according to reports are low balling us with offers of around €15 m and why there are no other suitors for him in Italy or here in England.

The most obvious reason is that Smalling is saying he wants to be there.