I am an Ole supporter, but I think that leaving Smalling out is a big mistake he had made. Coupled with the decision to keep De Gea in at a hefty fee, I am now beginning to doubt his vision and maturity.
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Smalling isnt the answer for United. Thats not to say Lindelof is either. Maguire is in his first season and has done ok, but can get better.
I would have liked Smalling as a CB backup but Smalling didnt want that so fair play to him, he left to play regularly.
I would have liked Smalling as a CB backup but Smalling didnt want that so fair play to him, he left to play regularly.
Have a sneaky feeling lots of commenters haven't watched Smalling post Christmas
You can see Smalling was being diplomatic here.
If it's a based on merit, then it would be whoever perform better get to play. Here it's made to sound like Ole clearly told Smalling, he would be second pick no matter what. Smalling talking about challenge, meaning that you can prove your worth eventually when now it's set in stone based on "philosophy", which even now doesn't look like to take shape. In Smalling case, he needs to play as much as possible (based on merit) to prove Southgate wrong. Hindering that, and it's basically supporting Southgate's point.
Ole gets credit for managing all these talk with departing players well. He knows how to push the right button without offending them, lest everyone burning bridge, taking each other out to do the laundering in the public.
I think it was because Ole not only preferred Maguire /Lindelof, he also put Tuanzebe ahead of him.
From memory Jones and I think even Rojo got more minutes than Smalling in preseason. He appeared to be literally last choice out of all our options, despite showing season after season that he was better than them.
He's no worse than the two playing. He's not great on the ball but he's quicker than both Maguire n Lindelof, more dominant in the air, more of a goal threat. He's been thrown in with Jones unfairly. Had a good time with Roma too and I'm not shocked.
Ole's biggest mistake so far as manager. Smalling should still be here.
Managers have some sort of set team that they plan to use, Smalling wasn't first choice in any of the season, he played his way into the team as his performance was better than other CBs. He had similar challenge again (IMO that was wrong move, Smalling should have been our first choice CB). Also there is nothing set in stone. Every position is up for grabs. Don't think Greenwood or James thought they would be first choice players at various times this season, everyone thought (even player himself) James would be squad player but for more than half a season he was first choice player. Then post restart Greenwood became first choice as his performance means he was easy choice.
Matic started as back up for McTominay - Pogba midfield and it looked like he will be leaving, but when he played well he became first choice midfielder alongside Pogba.
Now that Smalling has left and bailly, Tuanzebe, Jones are very injury prone, we don't have anyone who can challenge for CB spots. If Smalling stayed, he could have easily forced his way into first 11.
Anyways can't hold against him, after all the shit got from fans, it was his time to enjoy some other league.
Phill Jones was the worst thing to ever happen to Smalling. Unfairly they were put on the scrap heap together and Smalling is miles better than Jones its not even close.
I actually think Smalling + Maguire would be our best CB pairing as Smalling's pace would cover for Maguire a lot. We'd also have more than just Maguire to aim for on set pieces. Smalling scored quite a few goals for us too that many forget.
Never been a fan of Lindelof. He doesn't excel at anything. Okay on ball at best, slow, weak, poor in the air. What is so good about him? I have yet to see it.
I actually think Smalling + Maguire would be our best CB pairing as Smalling's pace would cover for Maguire a lot. We'd also have more than just Maguire to aim for on set pieces. Smalling scored quite a few goals for us too that many forget.
Never been a fan of Lindelof. He doesn't excel at anything. Okay on ball at best, slow, weak, poor in the air. What is so good about him? I have yet to see it.
Smalling is having a good time of it in Rome, where he is getting so much more time on the ball and his heading ability has really come to the fore, along with his pace.
The PL is an altogether different intensity game and the intense press which the likes of even Southampton are capable of, caused major issues for Mike. He kept clearing the ball effectively only to land up at the opposition half the time.
He would be a rather bad fit now, given that we have an even more attacking set up and it'll need the CB to be very comfortable on the ball and be able to pick a pass once in a while.
The PL is an altogether different intensity game and the intense press which the likes of even Southampton are capable of, caused major issues for Mike. He kept clearing the ball effectively only to land up at the opposition half the time.
He would be a rather bad fit now, given that we have an even more attacking set up and it'll need the CB to be very comfortable on the ball and be able to pick a pass once in a while.
Yes I can see why he wanted to move. And he understood that his strengths and weaknesses did not fit the football vision Ole had.
I certainly havent. Expand on this please
Are you saying hes excelled and got even better?
Or hes really bad and not the answer?
He started off great as we all know but fell off a cliff after Christmas. If he was serving up the same performances here he'd be criticized just as much, if not more, than our current CBs.I certainly havent. Expand on this please
Are you saying hes excelled and got even better?
Or hes really bad and not the answer?
Cannot wait for him to be sold so that we stop hearing people wanting him back and acting as if he is some kind of a top defender. It seems people who wants smalling back have short memories he was here at the club for 8 years (or even more than that) and never produced consistently great performances. He made stupid mistakes himself. He was a decent defender but that was his level. Is he better than lindelof? Maybe/Maybe not but he definitely is not the answer.
I personally can't imagine any of current defenders serving up a performance like him vs Barca at home in the CL last season. Maguire would be too busy being turned here, there and everywhere and Lindelof would be getting outmuscled by Puig.
I watched most of his games, he didn't fall off a cliff at all. I actually have a sneaky feeling most commenters are getting their opinion from this forum whenever someone posts one of his mistakes. He is one of the first names on their team sheet and has started almost every single match, and is rated pretty well over there. He looks nothing like the shaky defender from our last season. In fact, one thing that impressed me was how he had the mentality to brush off mistakes and continue on with the game.
I completely understand this mindset, believe me. It hurts when you see players do well elsewhere after they leave us, especially when they could've done that job right here and saving us money. People had the same attitude with Zaha a few years ago, I couldn't understand the animosity every time I brought up his name and mentioned that he wasn't given a fair chance.
Well it’s easy thinking imo Smalling is a better defender than Maguire and Lindelof it’s just we play from the back which he isn’t the best at but pure defending he is better, overall I’m not sure
He's been nowhere near his form at the start since Christmas as have Roma in general. I don't know how you can watch them and dispute that.
He's one of the first names on the team sheets in a team that is 5th in Serie A and has the 9th best defensive record. Congrats to him for that I guess but it doesn't mean he should be here starting for us. He's also prone to his usual stupid errors just like he was during his time here. Milik done him like a schoolboy in his last game before injury only for him to be saved by the keeper. Can only imagine what the reaction on here would have been if it was Lindelof or Maguire.
If he was as half as impressive as Smalling fans try to claim he is then a better team than Roma in Serie A would be in for him.
I'm not disputing that his form dipped, I'm saying that he didn't fall off a cliff, because when yo put it like that, especially to people who haven't watched him, it makes him sound like a disaster. Which I don't think he's been. His last season with us was reminiscent of Evans' last season, it didn't reflect his true ability, form is temporary, etc. Good point about the defensive record though, because every time I watch Roma they seem to concede at least one. Sometimes he can do better for a couple of the goals, but more often than not its because the fullbacks let people cross at will and the cb's are faced with 4-5 big chances every game.
A feckin wheelie bin would be more of an obstacle than lindelof. Yet people want to persist with him but choke on their own shit when smalling is mentioned. Go figure.
Anyways Ole has made his call on this guy fairly early so hope he gets his permanent move
Ole has finally got things together and we were unbeaten for 19 matches I think, with many clean sheets and scoring plenty of goals. One poor match and supporters want to replace players.
We should bring back private Mike.
He is dependable, better than Lindeloff, what more do you need.
Sometimes the best thing is the simplest thing.
I am always comfortable with Smalling defending. Cant say the same for Lindeloff. As a squad player, Smalling is perfect.
He is dependable, better than Lindeloff, what more do you need.
Sometimes the best thing is the simplest thing.
I am always comfortable with Smalling defending. Cant say the same for Lindeloff. As a squad player, Smalling is perfect.
Smalling was part of our possession football with LVG. Why is it made out that he can't play in that kind of system?
Because Maguire is the reason why our front three are hitting more goals than liverpool's... or something like that. Anyways I agree with gb, the Smalling ship has sailed I think, can't see Ole doing a 180 with him. This is all just hypothetical discussion about how he would have fared because neither of our cbs have been covered in glory lately.
Possession football under LVG was mostly passing it between defenders and midfielders with no pressure.
It was often we would have 65% possession under no pressure but not creating chances and sometimes losing it and being hit on a counter and conceding
Not saying that's smallings fault but the system is different to what we have now or trying to have where we try to move it around with one touch stuff / triangles to create spaces and advance the ball
I don't think it hurts or it is any kind of animosity against Smalling. The truth is people have been overrating him since he left which is what happens with most of our players once they leave. The history is rewritten and all their mediocre times here at the club is forgotten. The fact is if smalling was that good (irrespective of his style or how good he wasn't with the ball) he would have still been here. People did the same with evans stating he should have stayed here, same happened with Rafael and Welbeck. I bet same will happen if Jones leaves and plays bunch of games for Everton or West ham. People be like we should have kept him instead of "insert the new defender".
Smalling was not a bad defender but he had his time here and had many ordinary games(past threads would confirm that). This is why I want him to be sold as that would end this bs of having him back.
Two times Premier League champion. It's hard to believe.
Good luck to him at Roma.
Good luck to him at Roma.
That's how it works though. We seem to naturally overrate transfer targets and the like, and once they come to the club are underwhelmed by the reality.
This time it just happened in reverse, but it shows that perhaps if Smalling had never played for us, and we had never seen all his flaws week in week out, he'd have been much higher rated. Maybe also showing that some of the players we think are "shite" and the like, aren't really that bad and would be higher rated if they were at another club.
Agree 100%. He is easily our best defender, other than his ball-playing skills. The only thing the other defenders have over him is passing the ball around. Not that his ball-playing skill cost us in a big way.
When we really played from the back at an elite level I'm pretty sure he was in the defence.
Maguire is being done on a game by game basis at this point by a variety of players. Say what you want about Smalling but that never used to happen when he was here. On top of that Maguire never seems to have dominant game which Smalling does have from time to time.
This team was rank average before we signed Bruno, so don't be fooled by them. You can't be watching these performances by these defenders and think there's any greatness in them especially for a front foot team.
It's his first season there on new League. So maybe some adaptation is required to get consistency. Anyway, whoscored rates Smalling higher than Koulibaly for their Serie A performance. Would you take Koulibay here?
Also I'm not sure he's famous for his "prone to his usual stupid errors" on his time here. Usual? Are you sure about that? DDG is what you call prone to usual stupid errors. At least he's not as "prone to his usual stupid errors" as Lindelof and Maguire, i'd think.
At least, he'd be an extremely valuable squad player here, and have a sneaky feeling that he might be back as a starter, as he's proven track record with any managers we've had before Ole.
Asking the real questions here. The rationale of sending out a CB like Smalling while signing a RB like AWB eludes me too. I can only guess that either the scouts didn't pick on his technical deficiencies (doubtful) or that because of his young age Ole thought he could be coached into a ball playing RB. In the case of the latter, that would be a massive gamble to take on a 22yo footballer. Consistency and decision making improve with age, but ball-control, first touch and passing? Those fundamentals rarely do.
This. If Ole persists with Maguire and Lindelof, I can understand that as Manager has their favorites. But it's true that I'd be more comfortable if whe have Smalling as one the option. Even coming in as a sub, or when resting one of the main CB.
I am not in total disagreement with you here. I actually see that my point is not exactly far from yours. Just that Ole's plan is not good for the exemption he received for his mess up.
Pep had to use Yaya Toure in later part of his first season, despite the whole world knows how the two ain't getting along. Yaya was still there in the first place due to no taker, not that Pep would try to provoke him to perform. In the end Yaya was kicked out. Similarly the Eto'o situation in Pep first season at Barcelona. The point being: the plan is set in stone (these players would get the boot when they have any takers). Manager have to a job to do, so they wouldn't just ignore an useful player to the point their jobs security affected.
In Smalling case, this summer initially was EURO time. Smalling was told the plan for him is that he would be way down the pecking order, not just behind Maguire. See Smalling question for Ole. That's too many CBs we have, Lindelof, Tuanzebe, Jones, Bailly, even Rojo before he was sent out on loan. By the sound bite of the plan, it's about ability on ball, which Smalling is among the worst.
When there is a plan, it's not gonna change by few occasions very soon. It took so much shit show from Pereira, Lingard, Mata in central position, and both Pogba & McTominay long injuries for Matic to be reestablished as a starter; and finally got Bruno Fernandes deal over the finishing line. Ole can be one hell of stubborn person, too.
Now look at our CB situation, even now the plan for ball playing CB is still intact given statistically our defense is not terrible, even though it's not very good when it comes to highest standard (passing well to isolate opposition attack, or dominate forward with quality in certain aspect). I don't see any change to the plan for Smalling, had he stayed. He may play a little more than what was discussed between him and Ole, such as being introduced to contain Giroud this past game, but ultimately, when the dust settle down, Smalling would still be down the pecking order, as the odd one out. Not the same situation compare to how Mourinho adapt to his opposition strength to set up the defense; or LVG barebone squad policy where there ain't as much competition.
Now back to Ole. He wants the CBs that can pass better, but there is no blueprint for a fluid system (yet to be seen) that justifying to tell someone like Smalling, that his playing time would be limited, not based on merit of performance. This team is still relying on the midfield to mainly supply the forwards, and our best weapon is still counter attack. It's confusing to say the least.
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Koulibaly hasn't been good this season, and last season a few mistakes started to creep into his game. People still saying we should buy him at all costs obviously haven't watched him recently.
It's fairly simple with Smalling. He can be here if he's happy as a squad player, which he's not. He's never going to be a starter if we ever want to get anywhere. Against well organised teams his ability on the ball makes him a liability, and with so many teams moving towards front 3s and 4s his poor reading of the game exposes him to good attacking movement.
You only need to watch how Chelsea play with Zouma & Rudiger to realise the whole ball playing CB idea is a bit of a myth. Zouma is pretty much the same technically as Smalling and Rudiger is hardly Pirlo in his passing. The PL is such a fast and physical league that the best CBs tend to be fast and good aerially as a priority & then it's a bonus if they are good on the ball like VVD. Ole wants to play this aggressive style of fast football but yet we have some real slouches in the starting XI.
Here where problem lies. Smalling wants to play. He's supposed to enter his prime as CB, and has a point to prove against the agenda. Being sub for not so good partnership, and rotation with other suns, is not something to help his case.
The key point in this mess is playing time based on merit vs playing time based on philosophy. Smalling was told the policy is the latter.
I am questioning Ole's "philosophy" in this case.
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