Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion

I have been moaning since the start of the season (or since Pulisic returned) that we have a great squad to play 4231. It would also utilise our best players in their actual positions, something Lampard seems clueless about.

Pulisic (left)
Hudson Odoi right, when Ziyech is out.
Werner striker and Havertz slightly behind.

It’s not exactly rocket science. Lampard would rather play Mount ahead of anyone in the team, including playing him at LW earlier in the season as opposed to Hudson Odoi. To accommodate Tammy, he shoves Werner left and Pulisic to the right, effectively moving two players out of position to accommodate another favourite.

It’s beyond ridicule now. Lampard has to go.
 
MayosNoun said:
I have been moaning since the start of the season (or since Pulisic returned) that we have a great squad to play 4231. It would also utilise our best players in their actual positions, something Lampard seems clueless about.

Pulisic (left)
Hudson Odoi right, when Ziyech is out.
Werner striker and Havertz slightly behind.

It’s not exactly rocket science. Lampard would rather play Mount ahead of anyone in the team, including playing him at LW earlier in the season as opposed to Hudson Odoi. To accommodate Tammy, he shoves Werner left and Pulisic to the right, effectively moving two players out of position to accommodate another favourite.

It’s beyond ridicule now. Lampard has to go.
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Wow :eek:

Interesting that the tide is turning amongst Chelsea fans.
 
Feed Me said:
Wow :eek:

Interesting that the tide is turning amongst Chelsea fans.
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I didn’t want Lampard as manager from the start. I don’t like appointing a club legend because of this situation. You almost feel guilty when giving fair criticism.

He’s clueless though. He has the worst in game management of any manager at a top club. Against West Brom, we were down by three and got back to 3-2. The tide had turned and he inexplicably went 3 at the back against no strikers. It killed our momentum and it took a very late equaliser as opposed to keeping the shape which got us back into the game earlier.

His treatment of Hudson Odoi is embarrassing. He would rather play Werner, Mount and Havertz out of position than giving him a chance. Actually, he even moved Tammy to LW (against West Brom?) and brought on Giroud in one game.

He will always try and accommodate Abraham and amount regardless of form. If these were young German players they’re be relaxing on the bench at the moment. It may seem harsh on Tammy who actually has a decent goal return but his all round game is utterly horrific. The ball bounces off him on repeat all game. Giroud is miles ahead in terms of ability.

Mount is a good player but he’s a squad player, not first on the team sheet as Lampard sees it. Bringing on Jorginho yesterday when chasing a game...... you honestly couldn’t make it up.
 
Topgun1 said:
I've said this time and time again about Chelsea, they spent a fortune and they're still fielding championship players like Mount, Reece, Abraham etc. Chelsea fans on here were defending these players saying that Lampard isn't showing favouritism....but he clearly is. These players are championship players at best. Keep fielding them and you'll just keep losing to us. Why was Giroud on the bench? Why did Havertz come on so late? Baffling from Lampard.
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Behave.
Its debatable whether they are top 4 players yet, but they are cleverly better than championship level. Reece James is a very solid fullback. TA has scored a decent amount in the PL already, I’m sure other clubs would snap their hands off to get him.
 
Gazza said:
Chelsea/Mourinho have been reminded constantly about KDB, Salah and also Lukaku, tbf. There was plenty of media coverage about how they fecked up with Salah and KDB in particular
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Let’s put it into context though. Jose was in charge abs he was very successful at the time playing his favourites. Young players coming from other countries were gonna find it hard to break into that.

I think it’s a silly argument anyway, you could do it with any club and say look at the ones that got away
 
rhajdu said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Frank's spending is nearly the same amount as Ole's spending.
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United is a shit-show when it comes tonp
Knux said:
That bloke James on the RB seems rated very highly in London. I’ve watched him two last games now and looks very good going forward but a defensive disaster at times. I think he’s been at fault for two penalties in two games now?

Lampard can’t be too happy with him surely. Didn’t they sign a new RB in the summer? Or was it LB?
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He might be too happy with him. I still don’t get the hype. He was an idiot yesterday, so stupid.
 
3 loses in the last 4 league games, it’s a big 3 weeks coming up in their season so far you feel. After the Villa game tomorrow they’ve got Man City and Leicester (away) in the following 3 league games. Even Fulham away isn’t easy when you’re not picking up points (their other league game). They’ve got to bounce back at home in the next game and certainly have the players to do it but fingers crossed Villa can get something as Chelsea will be a close rival for us this season.
 
duffer said:
PSG would not sell us Kimpembe for £120 million and even if they accepted the bid, the player would not make that move. Varane is the same. Mings? Come on, he's a clogger.

Leicester won the league with Morgan and Huth. We won the league with Cahill and Luiz. Zouma & Silva are not a step down from all of those, not a chance.

As for Chelsea scouting team, of course they know about all of the young talent in european football. The club obviously don't think there was anyone available for a decent price out there that was better than Silva, Zouma, Christensen, Rudiger and Tomori. Silva is one of the greatest centre backs of the past decade, it's a fantastic signing on a free.
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So that’s it then, settled. There aren’t any CBs available for less than £100m who would improve Chelsea.

If we take your word for it, and Zouma and Silva are better than Luiz/Cahill and Huth/Morgan (amongst others) what’s going wrong?

Also, just on the Silva point, it shouldn’t really need addressing (but i’ll do it anyway)...the bloke is 36! He’s hardly in his prime is he?
 
Lentwood said:
So that’s it then, settled. There aren’t any CBs available for less than £100m who would improve Chelsea.

It was £120m for 2 CBS earlier!

If we take your word for it, and Zouma and Silva are better than Luiz/Cahill and Huth/Morgan (amongst others) what’s going wrong?
Midfield and forwards are being shite in the last few weeks, it's not Zouma and Silva's fault. If we win tomorrow we can go 3rd, it's not some disaster.

Also, just on the Silva point, it shouldn’t really need addressing (but i’ll do it anyway)...the bloke is 36! He’s hardly in his prime is he?
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He's still a lot better than most. Giggs won player of the season when he was the same age I think (and then played until he was 40!).
 
Lampard is taking the team backwards, but in the last 3 or 4 years Kante is the only signing who's been of real title winning quality and even he's in clear decline now. No manager can seriously be expected to challenge the best when the club keep on signing so many mediocre or rubbish players. The clowns responsible for years of bad signings are a bigger problem than the manager.
 
Lentwood said:
So that’s it then, settled. There aren’t any CBs available for less than £100m who would improve Chelsea.

If we take your word for it, and Zouma and Silva are better than Luiz/Cahill and Huth/Morgan (amongst others) what’s going wrong?

Also, just on the Silva point, it shouldn’t really need addressing (but i’ll do it anyway)...the bloke is 36! He’s hardly in his prime is he?
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Thiago Silva is 36 indeed but I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Duffer didn’t state he would be our long term centre back, he was brought in to steady the ship and develop our young defenders. The improvement on Zouma and Reece James has been incredible. They will still be prone to errors, however nowhere near where they were last season.

Thiago Silva has been a fantastic signing and the least of our worries right now.
 
Red & White said:
3 loses in the last 4 league games, it’s a big 3 weeks coming up in their season so far you feel. After the Villa game tomorrow they’ve got Man City and Leicester (away) in the following 3 league games. Even Fulham away isn’t easy when you’re not picking up points (their other league game). They’ve got to bounce back at home in the next game and certainly have the players to do it but fingers crossed Villa can get something as Chelsea will be a close rival for us this season.
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If there is an a chance of a us being in danger of missing out on top 4, I don't think the club will stand by and do nothing. I don't know if Chelsea will treat Lampard different than other managers because of who he is but there is next to no track record of the club persisting with a situation that is threatening to get out of hand.

He needs to turn it around. We can't go into next year with a record of 5-6 defeats in 7-8 games. That's the kind of run that gets you sacked so he should probably try and avoid that scenario.
 
MayosNoun said:
Thiago Silva is 36 indeed but I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Duffer didn’t state he would be our long term centre back, he was brought in to steady the ship and develop our young defenders. The improvement on Zouma and Reece James has been incredible. They will still be prone to errors, however nowhere near where they were last season.

Thiago Silva has been a fantastic signing and the least of our worries right now.
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What I’m getting at is Chelsea have spent £120m on two attacking players who shouldn’t have been the priority when the obvious problems are with the back 5
 
Lentwood said:
What I’m getting at is Chelsea have spent £120m on two attacking players who shouldn’t have been the priority when the obvious problems are with the back 5
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They also spent £75 million on 2 defensive players and got Silva on a free. With a goalie and back 4, we have 3 new defensive players out of 5.

Our attack needed sorting just as much as our defence.
 
Lentwood said:
What I’m getting at is Chelsea have spent £120m on two attacking players who shouldn’t have been the priority when the obvious problems are with the back 5
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The guys you mentioned as potential buys [Upamecano, Mings etc] are either no better or actually worse than Zouma. The others [the PSG pair and Varane were lokely completely unattainable. Getting Silva allowed Chelsea to bring in an experienced guy ready to contribute immediately and kick the can down the road on the CB search.

It was a sensible move and one that has completely worked out - 4th best defence at moment with the 3rd most clean sheets. Defence personnel is the least of our worries, if you ask me.
 
WeePat said:
The guys you mentioned as potential buys [Upamecano, Mings etc] are either no better or actually worse than Zouma. The others [the PSG pair and Varane were lokely completely unattainable. Getting Silva allowed Chelsea to bring in an experienced guy ready to contribute immediately and kick the can down the road on the CB search.

It was a sensible move and one that has completely worked out - 4th best defence at moment with the 3rd most clean sheets. Defence personnel is the least of our worries, if you ask me.
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4th best defence isnt a brag!
 
cyberman said:
4th best defence isnt a brag!
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No-one is bragging. It's a big improvement on what was there before. I'm only pushing back on the idea that we somehow made a terrible decision on Thiago Silva.
 
WeePat said:
No-one is bragging. It's a big improvement on what was there before. I'm only pushing back on the idea that we somehow made a terrible decision on Thiago Silva.
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Nobody said it was a terrible decision. If you’ve got two good CBs and a young up and coming CB and you add Silva as the 4th I’d call it shrewd.

What I am questioning is why spend £75m on a #10 who isn’t better the one you have (and one Lampard clearly rates highly) and £50m on a CF who you then proceed to stick on the flank?

The funny thing about this argument is that I recently said Chelsea had the 2nd best squad in the league and Chelsea fans lined up to tell me how crap all your players are. Today I suggest some of your starting XI aren’t title-winning standard (namely the back 5) and should have been strengthened now you’ve got three posters lining up to tell me how good they all are!
 
golden_blunder said:
Behave.
Its debatable whether they are top 4 players yet, but they are cleverly better than championship level. Reece James is a very solid fullback. TA has scored a decent amount in the PL already, I’m sure other clubs would snap their hands off to get him.
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But Cleverley is in the Championship with Watford!
 
MayosNoun said:
I have been moaning since the start of the season (or since Pulisic returned) that we have a great squad to play 4231. It would also utilise our best players in their actual positions, something Lampard seems clueless about.

Pulisic (left)
Hudson Odoi right, when Ziyech is out.
Werner striker and Havertz slightly behind.

It’s not exactly rocket science. Lampard would rather play Mount ahead of anyone in the team, including playing him at LW earlier in the season as opposed to Hudson Odoi. To accommodate Tammy, he shoves Werner left and Pulisic to the right, effectively moving two players out of position to accommodate another favourite.

It’s beyond ridicule now. Lampard has to go.
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It does seem crazy from outside looking in

Chelsea have IMO what could be a great 1st eleven and very good rotation options playing 4231. But instead Lampard seems to enjoy playing players out of position and accommodating his favourites.

Can’t claim to have seen much of Chelsea this year but

First choice seemingly should always be Werner, Pulisic, Havertz & Ziyech when available.

With Tammy/Giroud, CHO, Mount all to come in.

CHO in particular getting plenty of minutes. Crazy that Lampard brings him in sporadically and then leaves him out for a handful of games. More so with Ziyech out for a while now

Midfield of Kante, Jorgino & Kovacic rotating is a solid base.

Funny how we both have club legends leading our clubs. I can’t imagine too many (if any) top clubs looking to hire them if/when they get the boot

I’m still Ole in. Must be said. He’s taking the club in a positive direction...although his game management has a lot to be desired for.

Similarly Lampard appears to be taking the club in right direction and introducing new/younger players like James, Chilwell even Zouma looks to be fulfilling the potential everyone expected in his early career. In game management sounds to be missing though
 
I think Lampard will be fine in the longer term. It will take time for the likes of havertz, werner to get settled in. The club has an embarrassment of riches in midfield though the Transfer Window podcast said Hudson Odoi is being made available for transfer by Chelsea.

Gilmour looked a good player last season havent seen much of him this season, then again i only see Chelsea on MOTD. James and Chilwell will hve fullback slots covered for alomg while yet.

Like Ole and Utd frank needs time to get the balance of the squad right and like Utd, Chelsea are in need of a top top CB for the long term.

Personally i think chelsea fans who think frank should be sacked should give him more time. Us Utd fans are sticking by Ole for now (ok he has his shortcomings), but a merry go round of managers leaves teams with a mess of a squad ala Utd before Ole became manager.

Personally i think the Chelsea squad is better than the Man City squad. Chelsea have some very good young players.
 
Lentwood said:
Nobody said it was a terrible decision. If you’ve got two good CBs and a young up and coming CB and you add Silva as the 4th I’d call it shrewd.

What I am questioning is why spend £75m on a #10 who isn’t better the one you have (and one Lampard clearly rates highly) and £50m on a CF who you then proceed to stick on the flank?

The funny thing about this argument is that I recently said Chelsea had the 2nd best squad in the league and Chelsea fans lined up to tell me how crap all your players are. Today I suggest some of your starting XI aren’t title-winning standard (namely the back 5) and should have been strengthened now you’ve got three posters lining up to tell me how good they all are!
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Havertz was seen as a player who maybe wasn't initially a target and didn't fill a particular need, but Chelsea viewed him as a potential elite world class player who became available in a window where all the main competitors in the transfer market were inactive. I have no problems with this purchase because he was bought for his potential and I'm excited to see that potential develop

Havertz himself says that though he can play to a good level in other positions he's an 8 and that's where Lampard has featured him except when he has to fill in for injured players.

But anyway, it seems like your main criticism is Lampard's tactics and line-up choices which is an entirely different conversation from the transfer strategy that brought the players here in the first place.
 
WeePat said:
Havertz was seen as a player who maybe wasn't initially a target and didn't fill a particular need, but Chelsea viewed him as a potential elite world class player who became available in a window where all the main competitors in the transfer market were inactive. I have no problems with this purchase because he was bought for his potential and I'm excited to see that potential develop

Havertz himself says that though he can play to a good level in other positions he's an 8 and that's where Lampard has featured him except when he has to fill in for injured players.

But anyway, it seems like your main criticism is Lampard's tactics and line-up choices which is an entirely different conversation from the transfer strategy that brought the players here in the first place.
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I think the issue with Havertz is he looks nothing like a potential elite talent at the moment and when you pay upwards of £75-80m for a player you're not really taking a punt; you expect them to deliver.
 
TheReligion said:
I think the issue with Havertz is he looks nothing like a potential elite talent at the moment and when you pay upwards of £75-80m for a player you're not really taking a punt; you expect them to deliver.
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You also don't expect them to get a severe case of the virus causing the global pandemic, to be fair! He was bedridden for a significant part of November; this really shouldn't be downplayed. Before that he looked fit and put in plenty of hard work running; since then he's been lethargic. Pogba has spoken about the way COVID affected him and I really think it's harsh to go all in on Havertz when there are many cases of athletes requiring time to fully get back to their best.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
You also don't expect them to get a severe case of the virus causing the global pandemic, to be fair! He was bedridden for a significant part of November; this really shouldn't be downplayed. Before that he looked fit and put in plenty of hard work running; since then he's been lethargic. Pogba has spoken about the way COVID affected him and I really think it's harsh to go all in on Havertz when there are many cases of athletes requiring time to fully get back to their best.
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How long does this excuse last for though mate? He is obviously fit to play and must be passing all the tests required. Covid also doesn't make you unable to control a football either. It would just make him tire?

He's an huge money signing and there's really no hiding place. He's not a punt on some youth player. He's in his 20s and should be ready to make an impact.
 
TheReligion said:
How long does this excuse last for though mate? He is obviously fit to play and must be passing all the tests required. Covid also doesn't make you unable to control a football either. It would just make him tire?

He's an huge money signing and there's really no hiding place. He's not a punt on some youth player. He's in his 20s and should be ready to make an impact.
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Pogba said it took him months to recover fully. Anecdotally as I'm obviously not a world class athlete, but I had it 2 months ago and I'm still nowhere close to where I was physically. There's a lot of documentation from college sports in the US that athletes are suffering potentially major ramifications - a college basketball player has had to retire because he has inflammation of his heart now and it'd be too risky for him to continue playing.

Re: Havertz specifically, for me the most poignant and relevant critique of Lampard is that he's doing a bad job of putting his players in a position to succeed. I don't think Havertz is 100% right now but he's being rushed back due to our lack of options - you also saw this yesterday with our fullbacks.

I also think there's a case to be made that Havertz is a player who doesn't fit neatly into any particular archetype - you can see this given the number of positions he played. I have questions over whether Lampard has come to grips over where would be best to deploy our players - especially exacerbated by Werner continually playing on the left.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Pogba said it took him months to recover fully. Anecdotally as I'm obviously not a world class athlete, but I had it 2 months ago and I'm still nowhere close to where I was physically. There's a lot of documentation from college sports in the US that athletes are suffering potentially major ramifications - a college basketball player has had to retire because he has inflammation of his heart now and it'd be too risky for him to continue playing.

Re: Havertz specifically, for me the most poignant and relevant critique of Lampard is that he's doing a bad job of putting his players in a position to succeed. I don't think Havertz is 100% right now but he's being rushed back due to our lack of options - you also saw this yesterday with our fullbacks.

I also think there's a case to be made that Havertz is a player who doesn't fit neatly into any particular archetype - you can see this given the number of positions he played. I have questions over whether Lampard has come to grips over where would be best to deploy our players - especially exacerbated by Werner continually playing on the left.
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All I'm saying is if he wasn't fit to play then he wouldn't be in the squad and passing fitness tests would he? It would be truly negligent of the club to take a chance on the long term fitness of a near 100m investment for the sake of nothing.

I'll have it he may have been a bit off the pace but just don't see this as a realistic excuse anymore with him.
 
The midfield is shit so why isn't Jorginho getting a chance?
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
You also don't expect them to get a severe case of the virus causing the global pandemic, to be fair! He was bedridden for a significant part of November; this really shouldn't be downplayed. Before that he looked fit and put in plenty of hard work running; since then he's been lethargic. Pogba has spoken about the way COVID affected him and I really think it's harsh to go all in on Havertz when there are many cases of athletes requiring time to fully get back to their best.
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I don't think bringing up Pogba is the way to win United fans to your side when a majority of the fan base wants him sold in January due to his poor mentality and below average work-rate. If anything, it makes Havertz look worse.
 
TheReligion said:
All I'm saying is if he wasn't fit to play then he wouldn't be in the squad and passing fitness tests would he? It would be truly negligent of the club to take a chance on the long term fitness of a near 100m investment for the sake of nothing.

I'll have it he may have been a bit off the pace but just don't see this as a realistic excuse anymore with him.
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Well, therein lies the question re: Lampard - he clearly risked the fitness of both our starting fullbacks so using Havertz prematurely wouldn't be beyond the pale, would it?

I guess I just give him some leeway because before November I thought he looked like a player with obvious talent who was coming to grips with a new league and setup. The contrast between him then and now is pretty stark for me and especially given his age I'd argue patience is warranted.

sport2793 said:
I don't think bringing up Pogba is the way to win United fans to your side when a majority of the fan base wants him sold in January due to his poor mentality and below average work-rate. If anything, it makes Havertz look worse.
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I wasn't bringing up Pogba as a direct comparison, just pointing out that one of your own players has spoken publicly about the long-term effects COVID can have especially in severe cases. They don't approach the attacking midfield role the same way at all anyhow.
 
I can understand why they signed Werner but I never understand why they spent lot of money on Havertz after Mount had good season last season. I also remember first half of last season, lot of social media criticised Havertz performance.

I always thought and I even posted it in Havertz’s thread last season that they need Sancho or Grealish more than Havertz. Someone with more creativity rather than someone with less creativity but more of goalscorer like Havertz. When you lost 3 wingers Pedro, Hazard & Willian then you should replace them with 3 wingers not 2 wingers and 1 Germany Dele Alli with less flair. Even better is that Sancho or Grealish and Ziyech can play the attacking mid behind striker as well.

If I’m being honest, Havertz is one of the main reason for why I was not scared of Chelsea attackers. I can make argument about Werner to be around Rashford level since he did very well in bundesliga last season but I knew Havertz isn’t on Bruno’s level. If I’m being honest, Grealish on the left, Mount in the middle, Werner no 9 and Ziyech or Pulisic on the right will give me more warning vibes. Lucky they spent the 70m plus adds on on havertz last summer not Grealish (he was set around that fees last summer).
 
Must win tonight and i reckon we will. Bounce back. City up next and I hate playing them, so need to enter that match with 3pts secured. Plus a win would really help Lampard at the minute, much rather go into City with a win than a loss, of course

Do I want Lampard to turn it around? Absolutely 100%, and stay in charge for as long as he wants any other answer would be ridiculous

I just worry a loss to Villa and City would start a rut, and when that happens our boardroom knives start to sharpen.

At the end of the day Roman won't make decisions based on sentiment. Have to seperate Lampard the manager from Lampard the club legend. No matter how much we'd love him to stay regardless
 
WeePat said:
If there is an a chance of a us being in danger of missing out on top 4, I don't think the club will stand by and do nothing. I don't know if Chelsea will treat Lampard different than other managers because of who he is but there is next to no track record of the club persisting with a situation that is threatening to get out of hand.

He needs to turn it around. We can't go into next year with a record of 5-6 defeats in 7-8 games. That's the kind of run that gets you sacked so he should probably try and avoid that scenario.
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Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see if Abramovich is as ruthless as usual when it comes to Lampard. I think you have too many good players to go on a really horrendous run but this next month will certainly be telling.
 
I’d like Roman to be ruthless now and give Lampard his marching orders. I don’t want it getting to the stage where I am continuously criticising Frank Lampard, the guy is a Chelsea legend. It would be unfair to keep him in a job where he is completely out of his depth.

Tuchel and Allegri are good managers.
 
Feed Me said:
It strikes me that the sentiment towards Lampard is starting to shift amongst the Chelsea fan base.
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Not the media though. I called the framing of this defeat as soon as the final whistle went. The phrase Lampard will have learned a lot about his players is his catchphrase now and it subtlety absolves him of blame. That and Lampard will be furious with what hes seeing.
 
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