United didn’t spend £190m last year though. But there were plenty of people wanting our manager sacked halfway through the season. Only a run of title challenging form from February on has stopped those calls from most. There are still plenty who would. Chelsea fans trying to claim it’s ridiculous that a team that has spent £300m since the start of last year can’t be expected to challenge for the title is just silly. Make all the excuses you want but that’s all they are.
Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter duffer
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Uh, yeah you did:
And Chelsea haven't spend anywhere near £300m:
Arguing that these aren't comparable levels of investment is silly. If you weren't expecting United to be making a title push last season then you're in no position to argue Chelsea should be making one this.
Yeah that's delusional, acting like your front three are currently elite. On paper they are still nowhere near Aguero, Sterling, Salah & Mane level. Instead, they are much more on our front three level.
I'll start by saying my statement was probably a bit unfair in terms of expectations next season and worded poorly.
Given the amount Utd have spent, I think it would be reasonable to expect us to have been closer to the top 2. Its how we have spent the money that's been the issue. Also, if we'd had Bruno earlier, who knows how much closer to the top 2 we would have been?
Chelsea look set to break into the top 5 highest transfer window spends in a window when Liverpool and City have spent relatively little or nothing - so far, of course. If you have spent wisely, I think you could get close. Not saying you'll win it, but close. I suppose it comes down to what is an acceptable narrowing of the gap.
I would say that making a similar argument just on the basis of amount spent is also silly.
Utd spent 190m trying to fix positions of desperate need i.e. defense and a creative player. The squad is still not complete with no proper RW, would argue the same for LW because Rashford isn't a proper one. We have no proper backups for our full backs. Only midfield looks solid.
Whereas for Chelsea, they have basically addressed every position. Striker, wingers, CBs, GK, LB. Your midfield is already good enough with Kovacic, Kante and Jorginho.
You need to see how complete your squad is compared to what Utd had after the end of last summer.
I completely agree with you here. While yes on paper it looks like we have spent well, it's premature to say we should be instantly an elite team - many of our signings will take time to bed in, get adjusted to life in England / the PL, etc.
It's why anyone criticising United after last year is similarly off-base - spending isn't a guarantee of success by any means.
This is a bit bizarre - so because on paper before a ball has been kicked Chelsea did better business than United we should be expected to overthrow a 33 point gap where you failed to overhaul a 32 point gap?
Also, arguing our midfield is good enough with Kovacic, Kante, and Jorginho is hilarious given they've now played together for 2 years and we've finished 26 and 33 points off the top. They're plainly not good enough collectively; whether they can be deployed selectively in different setups for success remains to be seen.
Ah, last year was 2019. So we didn’t. When we signed Fernandes we showed close to title challenging form.
I said from the beginning of last year. That’s 2019. Pulisic and Kovacic weren’t free. Any team that spends £300m in less than two years should either challenge for the title or expect to be told they’ve underachieved. You’ll struggle to find me saying United haven’t underachieved for 7 years. That’s why we had to sack three managers and it’s why Solskjaer was under intense pressure prior to his spell of title challenging form. If you’ve missed that then you weren’t paying attention.
Pep is entering year 5 of his City project and Klopp year 6. It took Klopp until year 5 to finally win the title. These are teams with players totally in sync and completely used to their managers' ideas. They've had loads of transfer windows to shape their teams. Klopp and Pep also have huge pedigree of winning titles in previous jobs.
For Lampard this is year 2 of his project. He's had 1 transfer window to actually bring in his own targets. One! To expect him to overturn a 33 point gap is stupid after a single (albeit superb) transfer window. We should be taking a substantial step forward as a team but a title challenge will be a huge overachievement this season.
For Lampard this is year 2 of his project. He's had 1 transfer window to actually bring in his own targets. One! To expect him to overturn a 33 point gap is stupid after a single (albeit superb) transfer window. We should be taking a substantial step forward as a team but a title challenge will be a huge overachievement this season.
There isn’t a 33 point gap. That’s not how football works. Everybody starts at 0. There is a 0 point gap.
You can downplay expectations in whichever way you want.
Sure, and he may well be great for your club. But numbers in a lesser and more free scoring league can also in some cases be misleading. I actually think he's under the right manager to flourish - with Lampards high energy high press he should, like Salah and Mane, get a lot of chances winning the ball high up the field and hence tons of chances. But, like I said, you never know how players take to new environments. Certainly having an all round game like an Aguero, Benzema etc does give you that extra quality to succeed in any league etc Let's see what Werner is made of.
Lampard is better manager than most give him credit for. If Chelsea get better start than last season we will definitely in shout with title.
And if luck permitted with draw Chelsea also can reach later stages of CL too. I am pretty optimistic Chelsea will have 85+ point season with good CL run.
The second match we have this season against Liverpool will change most people' s perception about Chelsea and Lampard.
And if luck permitted with draw Chelsea also can reach later stages of CL too. I am pretty optimistic Chelsea will have 85+ point season with good CL run.
The second match we have this season against Liverpool will change most people' s perception about Chelsea and Lampard.
Basically the same thing you achieved last season are your targets this season after spending over 200m
Last season plus 20 points is what most Chelsea fans are expecting. Whether that's enough for 2nd, 3rd or 4th remains to be seen.
Of course many think about players integration will take time so that they are reluctant to say challenge for title is on the cards.
So why I said if chelsea have a good start we can challenge for title but we will see how good the start can be.
Anything with that spending but the title race must be a failure and the manager should be fired.
Pep won the league in his second season while spending less that what your final number will be.
Pep didn't have two of the greatest PL teams of all time to overthrow.
It doesn't have to be so black and white, people seem to talk like if we don't expect the title then we'd excuse a similar points total to last season. We won't, everyone expects solid progression in terms of results/performances, however the title will likely require a points haul above what even our old guard got. In a first season with loads of new players needing time to fully gel.
Yes. He only inherited Aguero, Silva, KDB, Fernandinho and Kompany. The spine he basically kept for his back to back titles.
So you want to look exclusively at 2019 without including 2020 for United, but for Chelsea our spending from 2019 obviously has to be included in what we're doing currently?
They were two different subjects and you were the one that said last year. United have spent around £200m since 2019. Chelsea have spent £300m. Both have underachieved. The important point is that when we reached £200m spent we actually showed title challenging form. Before that a host of people wanted our manager sacked. Of course spending that money creates an expectation to challenge. You’re the one making excuses. Of course you should be challenging when you’ve spent the money United have over the last 7 years.So you want to look exclusively at 2019 without including 2020 for United, but for Chelsea our spending from 2019 obviously has to be included in what we're doing currently?
Roman has bought Havertz etc for Frank in forward positions so it evens out.
He only inherited a team that won the EL and finishes 3rd the season before. No biggie.
And lost a player that contributed almost half of the teams goals that season
Everyone in this thread it seems....bar me and maybe you :P
Last year obviously being a colloquialism for last season, but oh well.
How on earth can you say Chelsea underachieved when 70% of our spending was on players who haven't played a minute for us yet?
Also, your title challenging form would have you finishing somewhere between 15 and 18 points behind Liverpool when projected out for a full season. Not exactly pulling up trees is it?
I'm not trying to WUM, but the point remains that spending doesn't necessarily translate to success immediately and deeming projects a failure after one season is premature. I fully expect you to be better this year, but this argument that Chelsea have to fight for the title or it's a failure is just silly.
You must be disappointed to still see Ole in a job?
Strictly speaking I think its too general. The reason the club spent so much was twofold; regardless of other teams the current squad had no spine and the quality wasn't good enough. Gk, cbs, midfield and strikers all needed upgrades or replacements. Remember, half arent signings on top of what we had. Ziyech and Havertz replace the outgoing Pedro and Willian. Pulisic (if we are choosing for some reason to start with his purchase in 2019) replaced hazard). Chilwell and Werner are the only ones directly bought to improve on what we had. Im trying to stress that this was all in one window because basically the whole of our attack since the 2017 title win has left and they have all been replaced in a short period of time.
Second, relative to other teams we are too far off the pace. An big injection of money to reduce the gap in quality is needed if a club is to be ambitious.
All this is to put in perspective why 250m+ doesn't necessarily result in the expectation or demand for a title challenge. Its too lazy. You have to take into account where the club is building from and where the other teams are ahead. Would united fans think Frank failed if united finish above Chelsea? Afterall, many here seem to think united have the better first 11 even after the money spent
Well on the basis of not challenging this year it would be underachieving for me. Granted that is yet to happen.
Our form post Fernandes would have us on 87 points for the season. And we had more than anyone in the same period so actually it was pulling up trees a little. Albeit over a small sample. None of it changes that United have underachieved for years and Chelsea will be if they don’t challenge this year.
Plenty wanted him sacked prior to showing title challenging form. He was hardly going to get sacked after that.
Doesn't seem like a hard thing for Lampard to do to keep his job.
I guess I just fundamentally disagree, I don't think spending directly necessitates success. Perhaps this is because I've seen some disastrous transfers in recent memory and I'm a bit jaded, but more broadly I think looking at context is key. I just don't think that you can spend your way past a 30+ point gap when you're behind a team that's totally settled and is years into their project. It takes longer, and from everything coming out of the club that's what Chelsea's management thinks as well. It seems pretty clear we're trying to position ourselves as the next big power once Liverpool and City's players start to decline with age - immediate success isn't the priority.
You have to rely on Chelsea's board having a change of heart about how the club is run.
Previously a manager has been sacked for doing very little wrong, now you've spent an absolute fortune in one window, essentially a new first team squad, you really think that Lamps job won't be under threat if he's sitting in 6th position in February?
Context won't matter then! But it's yet to happen, and I can't see it happening, as I reckon only Werner and Chilwell will be starters consistently out of the new signings. Havertz will rotate with Mount, Ziyech with pulisic.
You do realise there two midfield positions and two wide roles to compete for? Who do you suppose will occupy those spots if Ziyech/Pulisic are rotating for one position and Havertz/Mount rotating for another?
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I genuinely don't think so. Chelsea have been trying to find a long-term manager for years now - definitely at minimum at least since Jose came back. Obviously he won the league in year 2 but then he brought shame / a lawsuit on the club, forced our best player to play through injury and alienated him, and had us in the lower half of the table in year 3 so he had to go. Conte came in and hit the ground running, then made things completely untenable for the board - he was insisting on absurd and inefficient signings like Sandro for 75m and Nainggolan for 40m+, then he threw a strop when we wouldn't throw good money after bad. In the end, the working relationship became totally untenable and he was sacked justifiably. That said, the way we went after his compensation package was shameful; we should have just paid what he was owed to have a clean break for all parties. Subsequently, Sarri wasn't sacked, he asked to leave and Juve paid us 5m to release him from his contract.
The last manager we fired scandalously was Ancelotti in my opinion. Every move since then has been justifiable.
So ultimately to answer your question, if we're in 6th I'm not worried about Lampard's job. If we're in 16th, then I would be. The expectation this year is a CL place more comfortably than last year; given that it came down to the last matchday last year there's some leeway there I'd imagine.
Also, Havertz is going to be a guaranteed starter. Ziyech and Pulisic play on the opposite wings so they're not actually in competition. All those we've signed can expect to play regularly (except Malang Sarr, who looks to be going on loan).
Time will tell. Shouldn’t have been tough to finish above a fairly awful United side either.
We lost half the goals from our team and replaced it with Championship players - half the posters on here had us out of the top 6 (and not unjustifiably, I'd say).
It doesn’t guarantee it but it definitely necessitates it. It’s not a 30 point gap. Liverpool will have to do something that no team has ever done before to reach that points tally again. City couldn’t do it with a much better squad. It’s fine if Chelsea’s board are happy to wait two years to challenge. That doesn’t change the fact that the level of spending Chelsea have done on top of what they already had should see them challenge. And the same would apply to United.
And added £100m worth of new signings. Half the posters on here shouldn’t be trusted with metal cutlery though.