What do you mean no team's ever done? They finished with more or less the same point total as the previous year, when they finished 2nd. That's the whole point - right now City and Liverpool are at an unprecedented level. Expected to compete with them instantly is silly and this is literally all us Chelsea fans have been trying to say!
Chelsea 2020/21 - General discussion
- Thread starter duffer
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What do you mean no team's ever done? They finished with more or less the same point total as the previous year, when they finished 2nd. That's the whole point - right now City and Liverpool are at an unprecedented level. Expected to compete with them instantly is silly and this is literally all us Chelsea fans have been trying to say!
Genuinely chuckled!And even though we got Pulisic and Kovacic, the former was viewed generally as a marketing signing whilst the latter was a purchase after a (generally) uninspiring loan deal. I don't think anyone argued that Pulisic would be an adequate Hazard replacement - I certainly didn't think so despite being an ex-pat American Chelsea fan.
Yes, they did it twice. City did it twice and couldn’t do it a third time. I think you’re in such a rush to disagree you aren’t taking the time to actually pay attention to what’s being said. City were not at an unprecedented level last season.
Well, they were from an xG perspective. It's why I'm generally convinced they'll win the league this year fairly comfortably.
Unless you're arguing that City will continue their malaise from last year and Liverpool will start to fall off? I'd find this hard to believe personally but obviously I could be wrong.
I wouldn't be so sure regarding the new signings playing all together.
Havertz won't start every game, no chance Lampard turns his back on mount. I expect Havertz to play champs league and the big games, Mount to play the so called easier games.
As for Pulisic and Ziyech, they are versatile players, can play any attacking position, I expect both if these players to rotate depending on opposition.
The expectations for Chelsea fans on here appears to be consolidation of top four, but the board will have grander ideas, no chance they'll settle for another season with no silverware.
That would probably be good enough for first or second. I don't see another 90+ point champion this year with the compressed season, I just don't.
What does that post even mean??
Chelsea usually play with two wide forwards and two non-defensive midfielders, but you suggested that somehow Havertz and Ziyech won't be regular starters because they'll be rotating with Mount and Pulisic. My question to you was perfectly reasonable response.
I think they’ll be slightly better but unless they improve their defence they could have a similar struggle. And they need to be replacing Aguero pretty sharpish. I expect Liverpool to win it again but I’ll be stunned if they hit 99 points again.
I don't get what your saying at all.
Lampard will change his system to fit the players he has purchased, potentially a back 3/5 or a repeat of what he played against Brighton a few weeks back.
If Werner is a bona fide starter, which he will be, then depending on the formation lamps is going to have to rotate, doesn't leave enough space for Ziyech, Mount, Havertz, Pulisic, Kovacic, CHO, he will rotate Ziyech and Havertz, they will play Champions League games and the big premiership games. No chance Havertz starts against West Brom for example.
This will quickly be proved wrong. Mount was one of our best players last season. He presses the opposition better than most players in the league. He will play 40+ games this season again without a shred of doubt.
It's genuinely baffling to me that rival fans seem to think that Havertz and Mount are playing the same position and are mutually exclusive. When everyone is available, they'll be our two starting 8s almost certainly.
We'll be playing a 4-3-3 this year if everyone is available.
Pulisic ------- Werner ------- Ziyech
Mount---------------------------Havertz
---------------------Kante---------------------
Chilwell - Silva - Zouma - James
--------------------Mendy--------------------
Kovacic and CHO will be rotation options. Havertz isn't being brought in to compete with Ziyech for the RW spot, that's just ridiculous to suggest.
Against Brighton we played with this formation off the ball but in possession we went to 4-2-4 with RLC stepping up into the striker role from the right sided 8. This seems the ideal way to use Havertz.
Also, why would Havertz have no chance to start against West Brom? Bizarre statement.
CHO may have the potential to be a starter eventually but he wasn't one last season and I don't consider him to be one this season. Ziyech will start the majority of the games he's fit for. The formation Lampard favoured the most last season was 433, in this formation Havertz and Mount feature alongside each other. In a 343, yes a midfielder will have to be sacrificed and it could well be Havertz sometimes, but my guess is it will be someone else most of the time.
One of the biggest issues this team had last season was breaking down and scoring vs lower table teams who defend deep. The idea that our close to record signing will be held back for big league games is quite absurd to me. Mount may have to rotate in and out sometimes with Kovacic, but I don't foresee a scenario in which Havertz doesn't start that isn't down to injury or rest.
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Which managers have been sacked for doing little wrong?
Yes I am.
Fair enough.
This is our probable starting XI and rotation options( if everyone is fit and available + no further sales or purchases) :
4-3-3 formation
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger - Chillwell
Havertz - Kante - Mount
Ziyech - Werner - Pulisic
We might see an alternative formation of 4-2-3-1 with:
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger - Chillwell
Kante - Kovacic
Ziyech - Havertz - Pulisic
- Werner-
And occasionally the 3-4-3 formation mostly to match teams who use it (Wolves, Sheffield, Arsenal these days)
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger
James - Kante - Kovacic - Chillwell
Ziyech - Werner - Pulisic
Rotation options for our starters in a 4-3-3 (again bar any further movement in the market and all players available)
GK = Kepa - (Willy)
RB = Azpi - (James)
RCB = Tiago - (Zouma)
LCB = Rudiger - (Christensen)
LB = Chillwell - (Alonso, Emerson)
CDM = Kante - (Jorginho, Gilmour)
RCM = Havertz - (Barkley, RLC*)
LCM = Mount - (Kovacic, RLC)
RW = Ziyech - (CHO, Havertz*)
LW = Pulisic - (CHO, Mount*, Werner*)
CF = Werner - (Tammy, Giroud, Havertz*)
* means player can be shoehorned into role.
Also, players still on our books but are excluded here based on impending loan moves or sales :
Tomori (loan)
Malang Sarr (loan)
Zappacosta (loan or sale)
Bakayoko (Loan or sale)
Drinkwater (loan or sale or banishment)
Conor Gallagher (loan)
Lewis Baker (loan or sale)
Note : Out of all these players, only Tomori was assigned an official squad number.
Also, I think some Chelsea fans might differ on the preferred CB partner for Tiago. Its an ongoing debate in Chelsea fandom and I only placed my preference(Rudiger) there. Others may prefer Zouma or Christensen, with viable arguments.
Other(minor) arguments include, but not exclusive to :
’should Kepa be sold/loaned or kept as second choice.
’Kante/Jorginho or a new, taller,stronger natural CDM (Rice, Soumare)
’new 4th choice winger (Sarr,Benhrama) or put all our eggs in CHO basket
’is Werner better off with a Target man CF (Giroud,Tammy) as partner or he will be okey as lone CF with the support cast behind him.
Hope this provides a bit of insight for opposition fans who are interested in the squad status of Chelsea.
4-3-3 formation
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger - Chillwell
Havertz - Kante - Mount
Ziyech - Werner - Pulisic
We might see an alternative formation of 4-2-3-1 with:
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger - Chillwell
Kante - Kovacic
Ziyech - Havertz - Pulisic
- Werner-
And occasionally the 3-4-3 formation mostly to match teams who use it (Wolves, Sheffield, Arsenal these days)
Kepa
Azpi - Tiago - Rudiger
James - Kante - Kovacic - Chillwell
Ziyech - Werner - Pulisic
Rotation options for our starters in a 4-3-3 (again bar any further movement in the market and all players available)
GK = Kepa - (Willy)
RB = Azpi - (James)
RCB = Tiago - (Zouma)
LCB = Rudiger - (Christensen)
LB = Chillwell - (Alonso, Emerson)
CDM = Kante - (Jorginho, Gilmour)
RCM = Havertz - (Barkley, RLC*)
LCM = Mount - (Kovacic, RLC)
RW = Ziyech - (CHO, Havertz*)
LW = Pulisic - (CHO, Mount*, Werner*)
CF = Werner - (Tammy, Giroud, Havertz*)
* means player can be shoehorned into role.
Also, players still on our books but are excluded here based on impending loan moves or sales :
Tomori (loan)
Malang Sarr (loan)
Zappacosta (loan or sale)
Bakayoko (Loan or sale)
Drinkwater (loan or sale or banishment)
Conor Gallagher (loan)
Lewis Baker (loan or sale)
Note : Out of all these players, only Tomori was assigned an official squad number.
Also, I think some Chelsea fans might differ on the preferred CB partner for Tiago. Its an ongoing debate in Chelsea fandom and I only placed my preference(Rudiger) there. Others may prefer Zouma or Christensen, with viable arguments.
Other(minor) arguments include, but not exclusive to :
’should Kepa be sold/loaned or kept as second choice.
’Kante/Jorginho or a new, taller,stronger natural CDM (Rice, Soumare)
’new 4th choice winger (Sarr,Benhrama) or put all our eggs in CHO basket
’is Werner better off with a Target man CF (Giroud,Tammy) as partner or he will be okey as lone CF with the support cast behind him.
Hope this provides a bit of insight for opposition fans who are interested in the squad status of Chelsea.
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Lots of options that is for sure. I do wonder if Mount, Kante, Havertz would work as a midfield. Not balanced, Kante would get exposed.
Might have to play 4 2 3 1 to get Mount and Havertz in the same team.
Do we know what Ziyech injury situation is?
Might have to play 4 2 3 1 to get Mount and Havertz in the same team.
Do we know what Ziyech injury situation is?
I agree on the midfield bit. There is the hope that Kante’s engine would mitigate for things he clearly lack for the role like height. I was hoping we get a natural DM to rotate with Kante but hopefully last year was a blip and we get the good old Kante back.
I'm afraid 4-2-3-1 won't see Mount on the pitch often as that will mean a pairing of Kante - Kovacic/Jorginho at the base with Havertz at CAM. First option off the bench for Havertz I think, which should still see him get a lot of minutes.
PS: I think that will be good for Mount as well. There is a saying on WAGNH (Chelsea SB Nation forum) that “a rested Mount is the best Mount” in that his performances tended to tailor off when started for a consecutive stretch of matches. Made sense based on how Lampard deployed him last season (leading the press and workhorse in midfield)
Ziyech is definitely out for GW1. So far no timeline has been given for his return but if I'm guessing, he'll probably be available for GW3. Unfortunately too early for Liverpool.
Mine would be. Obviously this is dependent on Frank playing 4231
Kepa/Mendy probably be the latter eventually
Azpi Silva Zouma Chilwell
Kante Kovacic/Mount
Ziyech Havertz Pulisic
Werner
Just prefer Azpi to James overall. So James, Kepa/Mendy, Jorginho, RLC, Abraham, CHO, Rice (if it happens) bench.
I do like that lineup, although id start Azpi over James, just prefer Azpi overall. If we go 4231, the 2 would be Kante and Mount or Kova for me. If Rice came in, i think he'd eventually end up CBIf we somehow, some way pulled off the signing of Rice I think our expectations of a comfortable top 4 finish have to be adjusted to a genuine title push. We will have addressed literally every area of weakness in our team with absolute quality. Rice seems impossible this summer, though.
That's a team good enough to challenge for the title I think.
Azpi wont be around forever
James was up and down last season but will nail that position for years
oh no doubt, but as of now i just give azpi the nod.
I forgot about this guy, but it appears we stand to make a couple of millions out of his move to Villa.
Lampard is one of my very favourite people in football outside of Manchester United. Speaks so much sense in this interview. He is still so young, in managerial terms. Would happily see him as a Manchester United manager sometime in the next 10 years.
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There's a growing view among pundits that because Chelsea have spent so much they have to challenge or even win the title this season, and if they don't Frank will be under pressure or even sacked. These views, perhaps justifiably, are based on the short tenures of a number of Chelsea managers in the past. Jose came and went twice with two reasonably short stints. Go right back and Ranieri, Scolari, AVB and Matteo didn't last long at all. Abramovich was seen as a hire and fire owner with little patience and a hunger for success at all costs. I understand these views. They stack up. They've stacked up for a long time now and Abramovich has been there over 15 years. Yes I'm a fan but I think something has been changing for a while now and I just can't see that Abramovich will want his legacy at CFC being one of a mercinary henchman.
I say legacy because he has ongoing problems with his visa and he doesn't attend matches any more. From day one RA was a fan. Its not much reported but in his early days he walked down the Fulham Rd and sat in the Shed end with the fans. Obviously this changed as his profile grew but we have all seen him squirming in his seat and emotionally involved in the games for a long time now. He has proven himself to be a fan as well as an owner and he has also shown how much he enjoys the success of the team. He always celebrated with the team. His connection with the club goes beyond this and he always showed a huge interest in the development of the training ground at Cobham. I know this from the experience of working on the construction of the site and seeing him there regularly. He wasn't just a "sugar daddy" owner and frequently turned up to have a laugh and a joke with the team. He also had a hands on approach with the construction. Despite his enforced exclusion from matches he will still feel he has invested more than money in the club and I'm sure that emotional connection is still there.
Franks appointment is proof of that connection. Frank embodies the success of Chelsea during RA's time and I suspect there is a connect between the two. Yes, with the ban, it would have been really difficult to recruit a top quality manager last season but the ban didn't include managers and Franks appointment carried a significant risk. I believe there is more to Franks appointment than his predecessors. He has grown under the stewardship of RA but his appointment is far more than nepotism. Frank is smart, hard working and committed to Chelsea and if there was ever going to be a change in the way the club recruited and looked after its managers it would surely be with the appointment of man who learned his trade under the worlds top managers and the watchful eye of Roman Abramovich.
Frank is part of a three year plan and he will not get sacked at the end of this season. The club has shown its faith in Frank this window and it will know that sacking Frank after one slightly shaky season would dismantle the dream of building a homegrown legacy under the ownership of Abramovich.
I say legacy because he has ongoing problems with his visa and he doesn't attend matches any more. From day one RA was a fan. Its not much reported but in his early days he walked down the Fulham Rd and sat in the Shed end with the fans. Obviously this changed as his profile grew but we have all seen him squirming in his seat and emotionally involved in the games for a long time now. He has proven himself to be a fan as well as an owner and he has also shown how much he enjoys the success of the team. He always celebrated with the team. His connection with the club goes beyond this and he always showed a huge interest in the development of the training ground at Cobham. I know this from the experience of working on the construction of the site and seeing him there regularly. He wasn't just a "sugar daddy" owner and frequently turned up to have a laugh and a joke with the team. He also had a hands on approach with the construction. Despite his enforced exclusion from matches he will still feel he has invested more than money in the club and I'm sure that emotional connection is still there.
Franks appointment is proof of that connection. Frank embodies the success of Chelsea during RA's time and I suspect there is a connect between the two. Yes, with the ban, it would have been really difficult to recruit a top quality manager last season but the ban didn't include managers and Franks appointment carried a significant risk. I believe there is more to Franks appointment than his predecessors. He has grown under the stewardship of RA but his appointment is far more than nepotism. Frank is smart, hard working and committed to Chelsea and if there was ever going to be a change in the way the club recruited and looked after its managers it would surely be with the appointment of man who learned his trade under the worlds top managers and the watchful eye of Roman Abramovich.
Frank is part of a three year plan and he will not get sacked at the end of this season. The club has shown its faith in Frank this window and it will know that sacking Frank after one slightly shaky season would dismantle the dream of building a homegrown legacy under the ownership of Abramovich.
Poor performance. No control at all, struggled against the Brighton press but I suppose the old cliche of we got the 3 points.
Werner looked quick and sharp. Very impressed with him. Difficult evening for Havertz. If we can keep picking up points while the team gels then we could be in a good position.
Brighton are an impressive team. I don't know how much longer Graham Potter will have Brighton playing like this before he's poached by a big club.
Werner looked quick and sharp. Very impressed with him. Difficult evening for Havertz. If we can keep picking up points while the team gels then we could be in a good position.
Brighton are an impressive team. I don't know how much longer Graham Potter will have Brighton playing like this before he's poached by a big club.
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I genuinely don't understand why we'd play a formation with a hybrid striker / 8 role and then play RLC and Barkley there whilst leaving Havertz out on the right wing. Between them RLC and Barkley contrived to spoil half our decent chances this match, probably lost possession about 25 times, and were both utterly useless when pressing.
Lampard seems to have an odd fixation on playing 8s in wide areas. I just don't get it.
Werner looked great I thought; our other players are gonna have to get used to him though because there were so many times when he made excellent runs and he wasn't passed the ball. In particular the break where Barkley carried it for about 3 touches too many and then put Werner well wide of the goal instead of through was infuriating.
Lampard seems to have an odd fixation on playing 8s in wide areas. I just don't get it.
Werner looked great I thought; our other players are gonna have to get used to him though because there were so many times when he made excellent runs and he wasn't passed the ball. In particular the break where Barkley carried it for about 3 touches too many and then put Werner well wide of the goal instead of through was infuriating.
Lampard on a mad ramble there
I honestly believe that guy has a temper issue, any talk of pressure being applied to Chelsea due to the fortune they have spent seems to irk him, he really doesn't like it.
Hopefully the press continue with this line of questioning
I honestly believe that guy has a temper issue, any talk of pressure being applied to Chelsea due to the fortune they have spent seems to irk him, he really doesn't like it.
Hopefully the press continue with this line of questioning
Poor showing all round. We were too lethargic on the ball and our midfield was really struggling to impose themselves on the game. Brighton played very well and with a bit of quality in attack this could have been a different scoreline. I'm so impressed with Lamptey though, great little player. He also demonstrated why Chillwell’s pace alone would be a massive difference for us at LB.
All in all, an okey performance for a first PL game of the season, away from home with very little preseason.
Werner was very lively all game, he's going to be a great player for us.
Havertz might need this season to bed into the league, hopefully Lampard still got a little bit of the gold dust he used on Pulisic lying around.
Kepa was okey, got beat by the bounce of the ball just underneath his arm.
James making it hard for Lamps to drop him for Azpi by saving our asses there. Not his best game defensively but delivered in the attacking phase.
I'm afraid we may have just seen the best of Loftus-Cheek in the Sarri era. Him going off actually gave us a bit more control of the game with Barkley.
Mount did what he does best....press. Got us the first goal though so not complaining, but he needs to show more on the ball.
Kante had a great game defensively. Jorginho failed to control the midfield.
Zouma and Christensen had the best games I've seen from either in a while. Those individual blocks and interceptions were good to see.
AlonSlow as usual. Did his best to handle Lamptey a bit, could have been worse.
Okey run out for the boys, but we'll need to be a lot more quick and decisive on the ball if we hope to get anything from the game against Liverpool.
All in all, an okey performance for a first PL game of the season, away from home with very little preseason.
Werner was very lively all game, he's going to be a great player for us.
Havertz might need this season to bed into the league, hopefully Lampard still got a little bit of the gold dust he used on Pulisic lying around.
Kepa was okey, got beat by the bounce of the ball just underneath his arm.
James making it hard for Lamps to drop him for Azpi by saving our asses there. Not his best game defensively but delivered in the attacking phase.
I'm afraid we may have just seen the best of Loftus-Cheek in the Sarri era. Him going off actually gave us a bit more control of the game with Barkley.
Mount did what he does best....press. Got us the first goal though so not complaining, but he needs to show more on the ball.
Kante had a great game defensively. Jorginho failed to control the midfield.
Zouma and Christensen had the best games I've seen from either in a while. Those individual blocks and interceptions were good to see.
AlonSlow as usual. Did his best to handle Lamptey a bit, could have been worse.
Okey run out for the boys, but we'll need to be a lot more quick and decisive on the ball if we hope to get anything from the game against Liverpool.
They didn't look good today, but a win is a win.
Still not buying they've somehow leaped a level above us.
Still not buying they've somehow leaped a level above us.
Well, I think this is part of the point - we still have Pulisic, Ziyech, Chilwell, Silva, Kovacic, and probably Mendy to come into the team. Going away and winning with roughly half the best XI out on the back of no preseason is a very good result any way you slice it.
I think you still edge us in terms of the quality of the best XI, but we have much better strength in depth at this point. I'm not sure your team would win at Brighton with Maguire, Shaw, DDG, Rashford, Greenwood, and Fred unavailable. Especially in a compressed season, the quality of our reserves might give us an edge overall. Obviously there's still time in the transfer window but as things stand now that'd be my take at least.
Good post, agree with most of it.
United have a very good first 11.
It all crumbles when we replace anyone of them, we have absolutely zero depth, zero top 4 depth anyway.
Chelsea's attackers looked like a group of guys that had never played together before, which is exactly what they were. It may take a while for them to gel but I wouldn't be too worried on that count in the longer run.
The more worrying thing for them, IMO, is that they couldn't really control the match in midfield and, while not committing any major gaffes in defense, still managed to give away a good number of chances to a club without a lot of firepower (only 39 league goals last year). Take away the penalty and the xg was about 1.5 - 0.6 in favor of Brighton.
The more worrying thing for them, IMO, is that they couldn't really control the match in midfield and, while not committing any major gaffes in defense, still managed to give away a good number of chances to a club without a lot of firepower (only 39 league goals last year). Take away the penalty and the xg was about 1.5 - 0.6 in favor of Brighton.
I still think they will end up playing Giroud with Werner behind him. A posession and build up team like Chelsea cannot be constantly pinging long balls to Werner and losing the ball in most cases (because its a low percentage play).
Seeing Giroud startIng games for them after all the spending and the hype around them would be hilarious.
And of course I could see him being the one scoring the winner against us.
I think expecting Chelsea to challenge is a bit much, unless Liverpool and Chelsea drop off this year. Better way to look at is your own position and points tally. I'd say 3rd place and a jump from 65 (which was low due to loanees/Lampard 1st season/Kepa) odd points to around 78/80 points would be a significant step forward and in line with the investment.
The problem with us is that Ole was doing a very poor job initially and also that we got rid of a lot of true 1st teamers which sort of nullified the gains made in terms of quality albiet they were correct decisions in the long run.