Changes in Arabia

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Well neither deserved to be executed. Sheikh Nimr was heavily involved in SA's Arab Spring and galvanised the Shia majority. Likewise Skh Zahrani has been critical of the family for 10 years. It's a political move by the family to eradicate the voices that they don't want to hear. To me, killing Shk Nimr (and the fallout) is to distract from the other 46. And it's worked.

I don't think it's sectarian at all, but that won't stop SA from using sectarianism to distract from their own dealings.

You're right, neither them nor any of the other 45 deserved to have been executed. Yes they were both outspoken dissidents but the Saudis knew executing Nimr would have had serious sectarian repercussions and most logical states would have avoided the shitstorm they've now cultivated. Lets be honest no ones going to bat an eyelid if someone linked with AQ gets the chop (as wrong as it is), but when its a non-militant dissident who's revered by not only Shias in your country, but in neighbouring countries and the world, the intent appears to be somewhat more different since they knew the response they'd get.

The Saudis have been pushing for confrontation with Iran, they've failed to beg the US to pacify them as they'd done with Iraq so now they're resorting to provoking them while rallying the Sunni states. They're essentially playing with fire.
 
A Sunni scholar/cleric was on Sky yesterday. He had a lot of choice words for Saudi Arabia and their Wahabi creed. He implied Wahabism was the main problem in the Middle East. It surprised me cause being a Sunni, I thought he would be more critical of Iran.
 
A Sunni scholar/cleric was on Sky yesterday. He had a lot of choice words for Saudi Arabia and their Wahabi creed. He implied Wahabism was the main problem in the Middle East. It surprised me cause being a Sunni, I thought he would be more critical of Iran.

He's absolutely right. Without the poison of Wahabism there probably wouldn't be as much Sunni-Shia animosity.
 
I was talking about this incident specifically. I'm not fan of the Saud family, and their continued existence at the seat of the Hejaz irks me daily. And yes, there were Scholars executed. In fact, many men of knowledge (and teenagers involved in anti-gov't protests) were killed....(read below my reply to Kaos)



It is a political move.

Sheikh Faris al Zahrani was also executed. He was high up in AQ, but a fierce critic of al Saud family, and was a thorn in their side continuously. Both he and Shk Nimr called for action against al Saud family.

Here is his (Shk Nimr's) speech against Prince Nayyef and the family:


Here is Shk Zahrani and his speech against the Saud family:


Both are pretty vociferous in their speech, and Shk Nimr way more so.

They were cut from the same cloth (but with different ideologies), both were militant and staunchly anti House of Saud. The killing of Shk Zahrani has really ruffled the Salafi feathers (trust me). The killing of Sheikh Nimr was a distraction / tactical move to allow the family getting away with the killing of Salafi scholars and students of knowledge (of which there were many in the 46). Let's be honest, if it wasn't for Makkah and Medina, the Saud family would be beneath the people's feet. King Faisal was a ray of hope in an otherwise pretty pathetic bloodline. Most of the people / youth killed were from the fall out of Saudi's Arab Spring, and it is a move by the gov't to crush any dissent, which is why I said it wasn't a sectarian move, but a political one. There's a reason why the scholars who live to their old age are in the pockets of the family, and those that want change are either in jail or dead. It's frustrating for me seeing men of knowledge being slain in political moves, and yes, I agree, it stokes the sectarian fire killing Shk Nimr, but it's not a sectarian move. And doesn't it seem political that some of the executed were members of AQ...the same AQ that is sponsored and funded by the Saud family? SA played a huge role in training of some of these guys to fight Soviet oppression, and when these same guys saw that SA, a false monarchy, only really cared or their own national interests and protecting themselves, they turned their fight to them. So, in a political move, they struck off those that went against them.

To the rest of your post - they're all flawed trials. SA wants to show that they're the beacon of Islamic Law etc, when they're really really not. Do you think any one of these guys got anything close to a free trial? And out of the 47, 43-45 were Sunni (can't find exact figures).

I'll quickly point out what I disagree with.

- No they weren't. Al-Nimr isn't cut from the same cloth as Al-Qaeda. Also the goals of those two were very different. There is a difference between wanting equal rights, and wanting to build an "Islamic" caliphate. Also Al-Nimr never called for violence, and always insisted on peaceful protests. So when you say "Both he and Shk Nimr called for action against al Saud family." you're hiding the fact that the "action" was actually different. Al-Nimr was behind the protests. Al-Zahrani was behind the attacks. The case you're trying to make here that they're pretty much "the same" is simply not true.

- Al-Qaeda will not seriously go after the Saud family, because they can't spread without the Saudi cover. Most of the funds they get come from Saudi Arabia because of its alliance with the West, if they topple the Saudi family it will be more difficult for the West to deal with an open Al-Qaeda state, and they'll lose a lot of their funds. It's kind of like the "FSA" in Syria. They're pretty much all extremists, but some go public about it and some don't, and even if some were moderates, then Ahrar Al-Sham, Al-Nusra, ...etc. can easily wipe them out whenever they want to (as they've shown many times), but they keep them because they get a lot of help because of their name/cover. As long as the Saud family is making all the arrangements the Wahhabi terrorists need to grow and get stronger, there will never be a serious attempt to topple them by Al-Qaeda or any Wahhabi branch. Qatar did try to play a little game though by having their own backed terrorists, which led to some problems with Saudi Arabia, but it remained minor and I don't think it will result in anything serious.

- You dodged a question I asked in my last post so I'm gonna repeat it here: do you think the Saudi ruling family is sectarian or not (not talking only about this incident, but in general)?
 
The Saudi Coalition Bombed A Rehabilitation Center for Blind People in Yemen
By Samuel Oakford January 5, 2016 | 7:45 pm
United Nations officials have confirmed to VICE News that aircraft from the Saudi-led coalition struck a rehabilitation center for the blind in Yemen's capital Sanaa early on Tuesday morning.

A spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said that an airstrike hit the Al Noor Center for Care and Rehabilitation of Blind, in the Alsafyeh area of Sanaa. A UNICEF official in the capital also confirmed the strike.


Any human rights pretenders have anything to say?

...

Canada 'no intention' to cancel $15bn arms deal with Saudi Arabia
Ashley Cowburn - January 5, 2016
The deal will be the largest military exports contract in Candian history, according to research organisation Global Research


Saudi Arabia omitted from UK's death penalty strategy 'to safeguard defence contracts'
Oliver Wright - January 5, 2016
The British Government left Saudi Arabia off a list of thirty countries to be challenged by diplomats over their continued use of the death penalty - despite executing over 90 people a year.

The Kingdom is the only major death penalty state to be omitted from a 20-page Foreign Office document setting out the UK’s five-year strategy to reduce the use of executions around the world.


ok.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ina-and-iran-put-more-people-to-a6796351.html

The number of executions carried out by countries around the world has been revealed in a chilling new map.

While Saudi Arabia’s brutal mass beheading of 47 people continues to dominate headlines and outrage opponents of capital punishment around the world, it may come as something of a surprise to learn that the Sunni kingdom doesn’t even come close to topping the global execution chart.

With more than 1,000 state-organised executions in 2014 alone, China puts almost four times as many people to death each year than its nearest challenger Iran.

While the shock of China’s extraordinary execution figures may be dampened somewhat when its population of 1.3 billion people is taken into account, Iran is only the 16th most populous country in the world – making the 289 plus executions there in 2014 totally disproportionate to its population.

20160104_Executions_Ind.png
 
I'll quickly point out what I disagree with.

- No they weren't. Al-Nimr isn't cut from the same cloth as Al-Qaeda. Also the goals of those two were very different. There is a difference between wanting equal rights, and wanting to build an "Islamic" caliphate. Also Al-Nimr never called for violence, and always insisted on peaceful protests. So when you say "Both he and Shk Nimr called for action against al Saud family." you're hiding the fact that the "action" was actually different. Al-Nimr was behind the protests. Al-Zahrani was behind the attacks. The case you're trying to make here that they're pretty much "the same" is simply not true.
Here's a brief summary of Shk Nimr Al-Nimr's actions:

-Tried to bring down the Bahrain's government and create a state that follows the 'Iranian Guardianship of the Jurist' in its place. The 'Iranian Guardianship of the Jurist' is a political term that acknowledges that the Iranian supreme leader as the representative of God on Earth. I know from your previous posts you are extremely against the idea of a Sunni caliphate, but you're willing to turn a blind eye to a Shia one?

-He advocated the secession and segregation of Al Qatif from the rest of Saudi Arabia (a Shia city / town). Does this increase or decrease sectarian lines?

-He used his speech and lectures and platforms to instigate terrorism and violence.

-He called - repeatedly - for an armed insurgency against the Saudi government.

-He was arrested in 2006, 2008, 2009. His most recent arrest (2012) came after he explicitly "had called for the deaths of every member of the ruling dynasties of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and suggested Iranian intervention in Saudi Arabia".

-He also endorsed Iranian attacks on America and Israel. He sought to build a "Righteous Opposition Front" to fight the Saudis. He cried, “We do not fear death, we long for martyrdom.” "Iran has the right to close the Straits of Hormuz, to destroy the Zionist enemy, and to strike at American bases and American interests anywhere,”

-His most recent arrest came following a car chase and shootout with police.

-He founded a terrorist cell.

Of course they are cut from the same cloth. Any excuse to not claim they are not is just stupid.

Anyway - Nimr didn't deserve to be executed.

- Al-Qaeda will not seriously go after the Saud family, because they can't spread without the Saudi cover. Most of the funds they get come from Saudi Arabia because of its alliance with the West, if they topple the Saudi family it will be more difficult for the West to deal with an open Al-Qaeda state, and they'll lose a lot of their funds. It's kind of like the "FSA" in Syria. They're pretty much all extremists, but some go public about it and some don't, and even if some were moderates, then Ahrar Al-Sham, Al-Nusra, ...etc. can easily wipe them out whenever they want to (as they've shown many times), but they keep them because they get a lot of help because of their name/cover. As long as the Saud family is making all the arrangements the Wahhabi terrorists need to grow and get stronger, there will never be a serious attempt to topple them by Al-Qaeda or any Wahhabi branch. Qatar did try to play a little game though by having their own backed terrorists, which led to some problems with Saudi Arabia, but it remained minor and I don't think it will result in anything serious.

I'll type a response to this bit tomorrow as I'm tired and I have work in the morning.

- You dodged a question I asked in my last post so I'm gonna repeat it here: do you think the Saudi ruling family is sectarian or not (not talking only about this incident, but in general)?
Just like Assad, Hussein, Sisi, etc - I believe the Saud family is no different (King Faisal aside), and that they will use whatever means to hold onto their power. Whether that is faux-nationalism, playing on sectarian tension, Sunni / Shia nationalism, extortionate wealth, supporting 'enemies of the faith'. They are no different.

It's not a yes or no answer. They do whatever they can to hold onto power. The one thing that the Saud family has that no other ruling family / dictator doesn't is the Hejaz and that is why they've managed to stay there for so long (relatively) unperturbed.
 
Here's a brief summary of Shk Nimr Al-Nimr's actions:

-Tried to bring down the Bahrain's government and create a state that follows the 'Iranian Guardianship of the Jurist' in its place. The 'Iranian Guardianship of the Jurist' is a political term that acknowledges that the Iranian supreme leader as the representative of God on Earth. I know from your previous posts you are extremely against the idea of a Sunni caliphate, but you're willing to turn a blind eye to a Shia one?

-He advocated the secession and segregation of Al Qatif from the rest of Saudi Arabia (a Shia city / town). Does this increase or decrease sectarian lines?

-He used his speech and lectures and platforms to instigate terrorism and violence.

-He called - repeatedly - for an armed insurgency against the Saudi government.


-He was arrested in 2006, 2008, 2009. His most recent arrest (2012) came after he explicitly "had called for the deaths of every member of the ruling dynasties of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and suggested Iranian intervention in Saudi Arabia".

-He also endorsed Iranian attacks on America and Israel. He sought to build a "Righteous Opposition Front" to fight the Saudis. He cried, “We do not fear death, we long for martyrdom.” "Iran has the right to close the Straits of Hormuz, to destroy the Zionist enemy, and to strike at American bases and American interests anywhere,”

-His most recent arrest came following a car chase and shootout with police.

-He founded a terrorist cell.


Of course they are cut from the same cloth. Any excuse to not claim they are not is just stupid.

Anyway - Nimr didn't deserve to be executed.



I'll type a response to this bit tomorrow as I'm tired and I have work in the morning.


Just like Assad, Hussein, Sisi, etc - I believe the Saud family is no different (King Faisal aside), and that they will use whatever means to hold onto their power. Whether that is faux-nationalism, playing on sectarian tension, Sunni / Shia nationalism, extortionate wealth, supporting 'enemies of the faith'. They are no different.

It's not a yes or no answer. They do whatever they can to hold onto power. The one thing that the Saud family has that no other ruling family / dictator doesn't is the Hejaz and that is why they've managed to stay there for so long (relatively) unperturbed.
Wow. Can I have sources for the bold bits please?

By the way, this is what's written on his wikipedia page..

Points of view

Al-Nimr supported "something between" individual and council forms of guardianship of the Islamic Jurists as a form of government.[1] He supported Kurdish majority control of Iraqi Kurdistan.[1] Al-Nimr believed that Shia ayatollahs would not promote violence and "murder in the name of God". He supported "the idea of elections".[1]

Al-Nimr criticized Bahrain's Sunni monarchy, which brutally suppressed massive pro-democracy Shia-led demonstrations in Bahrain in 2011.[23]

In August 2008, he said that he saw US citizens as a natural ally of Shia as the thinking of both US citizens and Shia is "based on justice and liberty".[1] He told a diplomat that he believed in these “American ideals”.[24]

He believed that the Saudi state is "particularly reactionary" and that "agitation" is needed to influence the state in general and the Saudi state in particular.[1] According to John Kincannon, Counselor for Public Affairs at the U.S. embassy in Riyadh, Al-Nimr made statements "perceived as supporting Iran".[1] In August 2008, he stated that he believed that Iran and other states outside of Saudi Arabia act mainly out of self-interest, not out of religious solidarity.[1]

Al-Nimr stated that in the case of internal conflict in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Shia would have the right to ask for international intervention in analogy to requests for foreign military intervention by Kuwaitis and Saudis to the US in the 1990–91 Gulf War and people from Darfur during the War in Darfur.[1]

Al-Nimr criticised Nayef bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, who was crown prince of Saudi Arabia, following Nayef's death in June 2012. He stated that "people must rejoice at [Nayef's] death" and that "he will be eaten by worms and will suffer the torments of Hell in his grave".[25][26][27]

2009 sermon and arrest order

In February 2009, an incident occurred in Medina involving differences in Shia and Sunni customs at the tomb of Muhammad, filming of Shia women by the religious police, protests by Shia in Medina and arrests. Six children were arrested during 4–8 March for taking part in a 27 February protest in Safwa.[4]

Al-Nimr criticised the authorities' February actions in Medina and the Minister of Interior in particular for discrimination against Saudi Arabian Shia.[2][4] In a sermon, he threatened secession,[5][9] stating "Our dignity has been pawned away, and if it is not ... restored, we will call for secession. Our dignity is more precious than the unity of this land."[8]

A warrant for his arrest was issued in response. Protests took place in al-Awamiyah starting 19 March. Four people were arrested, including al-Nimr's nephew, 'Ali Ahmad al-Faraj, aged 16, who was arrested on 22 March.[4] The police started tracking al-Nimr in order to arrest him and tried to take his children hostage.[2] By 1 April, a total of 35 people had been arrested and security forces installed checkpoints on roads to al-Awamiyah. As of 1 April 2009, al-Nimr had not been arrested.[8]

The Arabic Network for Human Rights Information said that the authorities were "persecuting Shia reformist Nimr Bakir al-Nimr for his criticism of policies of sectarian discrimination against the Shia in Saudi Arabia and for his call for reform and equality."[2]

2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests

In October 2011, during the 2011–12 Saudi Arabian protests, al-Nimr said that young people protesting in response to the arrests of two al-Awamiyah septuagenarians were provoked by police firing at them with live ammunition. On 4 October,[3] he called for calm, stating, "The [Saudi] authorities depend on bullets ... and killing and imprisonment. We must depend on the roar of the word, on the words of justice".[10]

He explained further, "We do not accept [the use of firearms]. This is not our practice. We will lose it. It is not in our favour. This is our approach [use of words]. We welcome those who follow such [an] attitude. Nonetheless, we cannot enforce our methodology on those who want to pursue different approaches [and] do not commit to ours. The weapon of the word is stronger than the power of bullets."[3]

In January 2012, he called on authorities to "stop bloodshed", predicting that the government would be overthrown if it continued its "month-long crackdown" against protestors.[11] He criticised a list of 23 alleged protestors published by the Ministry of Interior. The Guardian described him as having "taken the lead in [the] uprising".[6]


I might follow up on other points later.
 
@Danny1982 - well, as you know, Wiki is edited by whomever.

Anyway - in relation to sources...here's the Saudi foreign minister who talks more in a very calm and eloquent manner, it has to be said. He comes across very well:
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000474366

(Can't embed for some reason).

On December 13, 2014, Tawfiq al-Sayf, a Saudi writer and intellectual who took off the clerical robe years ago and is one of the most prominent Shi‘a in the country, wrote a memorable comment on his Facebook page. He declared that Shi‘a Al-Qatif is suffering from its own, Shi‘a equivalent of ISIS—native sons bearing arms who terrify anyone who differs with them or who proffers an alternative view of realities in the city. (He received numerous death threats from denizens of Al-Qatif after posting the comment.) Sayf also asserted that during Nimr’s two years in hiding, he had been inciting, organizing, and steering the turbulence Al-Qatif witnessed—causing not only the destruction of government property but also the murder of civilians and members of the security forces—by gunfire and explosions.

Nimr bears some resemblance to Sunni Islamists who begin by expressing reasonable-sounding demands but descend into guerrilla warfare. Nimr’s repeated call in his sermons to establish an Iran-like regime, and for the secession of Shi‘a areas from the kingdom—the latter, an inherently violent goal—constituted, in the eyes of many Saudis, treason, and also led to his exclusion from moderate Shi‘a circles. As Nimr moved toward radicalism and armed activity, his revolutionary approach proved appealing to young men in the area. His followers included the remnants of Hizballah al-Hijaz, the Iranian-backed movement with which Nimr himself was firmly aligned, as well as other “true believers.” They also included drug dealers, wayward teens, and some among the ranks of the unemployed and disenfranchised. He goaded these youth to take up arms, burn government property, and commit murder. This wave of chaos, in providing simple and cheap answers to complex problems, siphoned away support from Shi‘a leaders and notables who have enjoyed considerable social and political esteem.

http://www.the-american-interest.co...itical-violence-and-the-future-of-saudi-shia/

Nimr al-Nimr and many of his supporters from al-Awamiyah village shared the same path, which relies on going armed against the security men and the Saudi government claiming being oppressed religiously and hiding the people who are wanted by Security agencies. Their resistance prefers sect over the nation.

The political Analyst, Fahd al-Ghayadh , told Asharq Al-Awsat that Nimr al-Nimr is not but an Iranian party working in Saudi Arabia as he called several times for applying the Providence of the Jurist) Wilayat al Faqih( in Saudi Arabia, during religious events. Al-Ghayadh considered that this act holds political aims as it is used to achieve political interests. He added that Hashemi Rafsanjani’s letter to the late King Abdullah that was sent to liberate al-Nimr from the Saudi prisons confirmed that Iran was satisfied with the role al-Nimr was playing in Saudi Arabia supporting the Jurist. He said that the Iranian defense lies in al-Nimr’s extremist religious acts.

Al-Ghayadh also added that the Providence of the Jurist, which was called for by Nimr al-Nimr and was punished for, resembles the Muslim Brotherhood calling for the adviser, and in both cases Saudi Arabia classifies them as extremist movements.

http://english.aawsat.com/2016/01/article55346156/why-does-iran-defend-nimr-al-nimr

There's countless videos online as well.

So yes - they were definitely 'cut from the same cloth' as I initially asserted. And denying that just highlights your own bias to the matter.

There's some of his own videos online, I'd watch them if you need more convincing (I posted one earlier).
 
@LeChuck

Those are your sources?!

You're quoting the Saudi foreign minister?? You're citing the executioner as "evidence"? That's a good one. Especially considering you objected to me referring to "Wikipedia" because you thought it's not very reliable as evidence, which in itself is not a bad point, until you provided your sources... The Saudi foreign minister, an article written by a Saudi writer, and an article in a Saudi newspaper owned by Faisal bin Salman. :lol:

And no, in the Al-Nimr video you posted above there is nothing at all about violence, terrorism, or calls to take arms (may be you should watch it again). I think if you have videos of him proving that then you should have posted them instead of posting a joke video for the Saudi foreign minister, quoting a Saudi writer and citing a Saudi newspaper.

"he talks in an eloquent manner, and comes across very well". :lol: No mate, that doesn't add any weight to your "source".
 
Yemen: Coalition Drops Cluster Bombs in Capital
Indiscriminate Weapon Used in Residential Areas
Saudi Arabia-led coalition forces airdropped cluster bombs on residential neighborhoods in Yemen’s capital, Sanaa, early on January 6, 2016.

“The coalition’s repeated use of cluster bombs in the middle of a crowded city suggests an intent to harm civilians, which is a war crime,” said Steve Goose, arms director at Human Rights Watch. “These outrageous attacks show that the coalition seems less concerned than ever about sparing civilians from war’s horrors.”


Doctors Without Borders hospital hit by rocket in Yemen
At least four dead and 10 injured in what NGO said is third incident targeting its facilities in as many months.
"There is no way that anyone with the capacity to carry out an airstrike or launch a rocket would not have known that the Shiara Hospital was a functioning health facility providing critical services and supported by MSF."

Saada province is a stronghold of Houthi rebels, who are at war with the Yemeni government and an Arab military coalition, which includes Saudi Arabia.

...

As a result Saudi Arabia expelled the representative of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in Yemen, and later only verbally agreed to allow him to stay, under some conditions?

Waiting for the next batch of weapons and bombs to be delivered by the human rights pretenders...
 
@LeChuck

Those are your sources?!

You're quoting the Saudi foreign minister?? You're citing the executioner as "evidence"? That's a good one. Especially considering you objected to me referring to "Wikipedia" because you thought it's not very reliable as evidence, which in itself is not a bad point, until you provided your sources... The Saudi foreign minister, an article written by a Saudi writer, and an article in a Saudi newspaper owned by Faisal bin Salman. :lol:

And no, in the Al-Nimr video you posted above there is nothing at all about violence, terrorism, or calls to take arms (may be you should watch it again). I think if you have videos of him proving that then you should have posted them instead of posting a joke video for the Saudi foreign minister, quoting a Saudi writer and citing a Saudi newspaper.

"he talks in an eloquent manner, and comes across very well". :lol: No mate, that doesn't add any weight to your "source".
Did you see the video? Nimr was a Saudi citizen, breaking Saudi laws, and punished in a Saudi context. Him (Nimr) trying to crowbar Iran into everything is ridiculous. It's like seeing Anjem Choudhry wanting Sharia law here. You're defending him just because he's Shia, and you have very little objectivity here. Let's not forget, students of knowledge, and other scholars were also executed in the 46. The way you're whining about it, you'd make it seem like he was the only one of importance killed. There were 17, 18, 19 y.o.s killed as well who committed no crime, but are at the whim of a corrupt family. But who cares about them as they're Sunni, amirite? Your stance is ridiculous. Nimr was involved in a gun shootout and dangerous car chase leading up to his arrest. He was arrested for sedition multiple times. I'm not saying he should have been executed, but this blind blanketing of what he has done is nonsensical, and it shows that you're totally bias to the whole situation. And at least my sources have credibility and objectivity, more than I can say for any glib Wikipedia you post. And the Saudi writer? The same Saudi writer who abhors all instances of radical terrorism whether they're Shia or Sunni? The Saudi writer who's exiled himself from Saudi, written essays and journals criticising the Islamist ideology, and trying to influence liberal ideals in the Saudi youth? You really are just digging yourself a hole here, with little or no solid argument. It's quite sad.
 
You're literally the only person here who ever quotes their propaganda.
Their propaganda?? The information presented by the foreign minister only corroborates with what's presented in other sources, and Nimr's videos themselves (which are all online in the public domain).

Unless you go there, do some investigative journalism and check it out for me, or provide me with something sound that offers a differing opinion, I'd keep the nonsense you type to yourself.

So far, all I've got from yourself in the discussion is a few smileys and puerile posts about nothing...as per usual.
 
Their propaganda?? The information presented by the foreign minister only corroborates with what's presented in other sources, and Nimr's videos themselves (which are all online in the public domain).

Unless you go there, do some investigative journalism and check it out for me, or provide me with something sound that offers a differing opinion, I'd keep the nonsense you type to yourself.

So far, all I've got from yourself in the discussion is a few smileys and puerile posts about nothing...as per usual.
The overwhelming reasons the death penalty has been proven to be wrong are enough. If you think either of us is going to come to any reasonable conclusion on any one specific case by searching the internet you've completely lost it. But the least you can do is not quote Saudi Ministers when they murder loads of people because they're going to be in full on PR mode, no matter how eloquent you think they might be. It's like asking a conservative MP what he thinks of Jeremy Hunt, they're not going to be objective.
 
The overwhelming reasons the death penalty has been proven to be wrong are enough. If you think either of us is going to come to any reasonable conclusion on any one specific case by searching the internet you've completely lost it. But the least you can do is not quote Saudi Ministers when they murder loads of people because they're going to be in full on PR mode, no matter how eloquent you think they might be. It's like asking a conservative MP what he thinks of Jeremy Hunt, they're not going to be objective.
Tbh - no one in the thread has agreed with Nimr being executed. If you bothered reading the conversation from the start, you'll see that Nimr was thought of in a different light by 1-2 posters, when in reality he is no different to the AQ Shk that was killed. That is what the conversation was about. And, let me get this right, talking about Nimr, a Saudi citizen, being killed by the Saudi govt, in a thread with Saudi in the title, when the last 5/6 pages have been talking about Saudi Arabia and the Saudi government...we shouldn't be looking at Saudi sources? Especially when they're concerned with the topic of conversation. So far, all we have from Danny is a Wiki link to work with. I don't know if you know this (being ignorant and all), but the Iran thread, from a government that kills more per year than Saudi, and is as impartial and inherently corrupt as Saudi...the posters - wait for it - quote from Iranian gov't sources. People use a variety of sources when they debate. What has the world come to! Anyway - your point lacks any substance. You meant Jeremy Corbyn, firstly, and asking a conservative MP about the leader from a rival party in a democracy, or asking a Saudi minister about the execution of a Shia cleric which has led to the severing international relations between the Gulf and Iran. Yea, great analogy, really made me sit up and think that did.

Btw - how old are you?
 
Tbh - no one in the thread has agreed with Nimr being executed. If you bothered reading the conversation from the start, you'll see that Nimr was thought of in a different light by 1-2 posters, when in reality he is no different to the AQ Shk that was killed. That is what the conversation was about. And, let me get this right, talking about Nimr, a Saudi citizen, being killed by the Saudi govt, in a thread with Saudi in the title, when the last 5/6 pages have been talking about Saudi Arabia and the Saudi government...we shouldn't be looking at Saudi sources? Especially when they're concerned with the topic of conversation. So far, all we have from Danny is a Wiki link to work with. I don't know if you know this (being ignorant and all), but the Iran thread, from a government that kills more per year than Saudi, and is as impartial and inherently corrupt as Saudi...the posters - wait for it - quote from Iranian gov't sources. People use a variety of sources when they debate. What has the world come to! Anyway - your point lacks any substance. You meant Jeremy Corbyn, firstly, and asking a conservative MP about the leader from a rival party in a democracy, or asking a Saudi minister about the execution of a Shia cleric which has led to the severing international relations between the Gulf and Iran. Yea, great analogy, really made me sit up and think that did.

Btw - how old are you?
No I meant Hunt, but Corbyn works too, they've got an agenda so their answer will hardly surprise. If you want another it's like asking a Texas governor about the scores of innocent people they've murdered, they still maintain they've done nothing wrong, and will continue to say they've done nothing wrong because it's in their interests to do so.

And you've still posted little that suggests he's no different to AQ, all you've mentioned is a shootout while he was being arrested which seems to be taking the word of officials as law (again, ones with an agenda so they're gonna lie), the beeb quotes his family as denying this. And a video that doesn't put him in that territory either. So really, in what is effectively a war of words, you've taken the Saudi side.
 
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Their propaganda?? The information presented by the foreign minister only corroborates with what's presented in other sources, and Nimr's videos themselves (which are all online in the public domain).

Unless you go there, do some investigative journalism and check it out for me, or provide me with something sound that offers a differing opinion, I'd keep the nonsense you type to yourself.

So far, all I've got from yourself in the discussion is a few smileys and puerile posts about nothing...as per usual.

I'm sorry that's nonsense, and the first time I've seen someone buy into Saudi propaganda who isn't a staunch supporter of their death cult regime.
 
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No I meant Hunt, but Corbyn works too, they've got an agenda so their answer will hardly surprise. If you want another it's like asking a Texas governor about the scores of innocent people they've murdered, they still maintain they've done nothing wrong, and will continue to suggest they've done nothing wrong because it's in their interests to do so.
This example doesn't work, at all.
And you've still posted little that suggests he's no different to AQ, all you've mentioned is a shootout while he was being arrested which seems to be taking the word of officials as law (again, ones which an agenda so they're gonna lie), the beeb quotes his family as denying this. And a video that doesn't put him in that territory either. So really, in what is effectively a war of words, you've taken the Saudi side.
I cba reiterating everything I've said. Everything I've posted over the last few pages answers ^ that.

-----------------------
I'm sorry that's nonsense, and the first time I've seen someone buy into Saudi propaganda who isn't a staunch supporter of their death cult regime.

There have been a lot of articles and amazingly fascinating fact boxes on the split between Shia and Sunni Muslims, written, I'm guessing, by people who don't know their Karbala from their Kellogs, in an attempt to explain the dispute between Saudi Arabia and Iran and the general beef in the region.

Normally, when I read an article that says something along the lines of "the people hate each other because of something that happened in 632 AD", I use my go to reply when I hear crap I can't be bothered to use brain cells to reply to: "u wot".

But, I've started to see so many articles like that that I feel the need to at least attempt to break it down, especially for journalists who may just want to finish yet another shoddy piece explaining those irrational Muslims and their wars so they can get to the pub on time. Ahem.

Middle Eastern politics is just that: politics.

Saudi-Iran isn't really about religion (although I'll get back to that) - it's about politics.

On one side you have a coalition of conservative monarchies, who are Sunni (and yet of course not every Sunni-majority Arab state is a monarchy). They're led by Saudi Arabia because petrodollars.

On the other side you have an admittedly religious Shia ideology, but this is the important bit, it's "revolutionary". It has a missionary like zeal and wishes to export its revolution around the Middle East and the wider Muslim world. This side is led by Iran, and is backed by groups such as Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Houthis in Yemen. Keep in mind that many leading Shia scholars, especially pre the Islamic Revolution in Iran, don't agree with the political ideology espoused by the Ayatollahs in Tehran (the rule of the jurist - i.e. a religious scholar who has to be of a certain lineage etc).

Both sides are pretty regressive.

"Conservative" politics vs "revolutionary" politics. That's bound to cause tensions. And guess what - it has.

The Saudi Royal family have one preoccupation - their security. There's not much point to a royal family that doesn't have power. And they've gotten used to the palaces.

Therefore, they will do anything to make sure they stay on top (as most other powers would do tbf) and their major fear is their population rebelling against them.

Now, as lovely as it is to think that people who only vote for X-Factor will suddenly spontaneously turn up on the streets and demand their rights (risking their lives) when things go bad, it most often doesn't happen unless they have some sort of ideology pinning them together, something to fight for, unite them, and perhaps even die for.

That's what the Saudis fear. They used a conservative religious ideology to initially get into power, and so they know how powerful ideologies are.

So what do you do to any potential strong ideology that could threaten Al-Saud within its borders or nearby? You destroy it. Or at least try to.

- Arab Nationalism (1960s) Communism (70s and 80s) and now Political Shia Islam (2000s): all Yemen (just our luck being next door)
- Muslim Brotherhood (Sunni just in case you hadn't realised) - all those billions sent to Egypt post-coup wasn't because they took a sudden liking to the Pyramids
- Political Shia Islam / Liberal Democratic Movement (Bahrain)
- Political Shia Islam / Al Qaeda and friends / Muslim Brotherhood (all within Saudi)

Now, as you may have noticed, not all of those are religious ideologies. And, as pointed out, the MB and al-Qaeda etc are Sunni, so no 632 AD tiff can really explain that.

You may often hear that we live in a post-ideological world. That a lot of these ideologies (Arab Nationalism and Communism especially) are dead or dying. That may be true, but one ideology, in its many many guises, is particularly powerful in the Middle East today (and I emphasise this has not always been the case so once again no 632) - Political Islam. It is by far the most powerful actor capable of getting people onto the streets (and no, don't embarrass yourselves with no 33 million on the streets ya roo7 mama)

Therefore, when people in the Mid East see the oppressive nature of the states they live in, that some struggle to put food on the table, or even that the bloody electricity doesn't stay on, they look for something that will change it for the better. In the past it may have been Arab Nationalism or Marxism. Many now turn to the current powerful ideology - Political Islam.

So back to Saudi-Iran. In essence what we are seeing is a power struggle, like any other. But thanks to the [insert SOAS terms here] conditions the Middle East finds itself in, many are particularly attracted to religious ideologies. In essence what we have is a power struggle coated with a veneer of religion.

And so, regular power struggle common throughout human history turns into look at those crazy Muslims stuck in their 1400 year old power struggle.

Now, of course, we can't ignore the religious and sectarian aspect. Saudi Arabia carrying a particularly anti-Shia sectarian ideology doesn't help. And Iran being on a mission to sow unrest across the region in a bid to spread their own religious ideology (which again I stress does not necessarily equal Shia Islam) also doesn't help.

But sectarianism is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more we go on about it and use it to cover up for the gaps in our cranial capacity, the more it takes roots and sows its seeds.

I haven't gone into Iran as much, because, in all honesty, I don't know nearly as much about that country (take note fellow journalists). But what I do know is that criticising and even being particularly anti-Iranian government does not mean you are sectarian. That is equating Shia Islam with Iran's anti-democratic and oppressive regime and political system (and don't come at me with the they've got a parliament we all know who makes the decisions and what the criteria is for him to be in that position) in the same way that Judaism is equated with Zionism in Israel. If you point out the apparent links between Saudi and ISIS and ignore the open links between Iran and the mass murderer who calls himself president of Syria then you my friend are a hypocrite.

And that's a wrap. There's a reason why this is a Facebook post and I'm sure there's some nonsense in there but what ya gonna do. Long story short: Saudi and Iran aren't gonna go to war because one prays with their hands folded and the other with their hands down.

I'm not one for Facebook debates so I probably won't be arsed to reply to "but how dare you say xyz". In the words of every pimple-ridden ISIS fanboy on Twitter: die in your rage.

Peace.
This was posted in the other thread by me, and I'm posting it in here as I started off by saying the killing of Shk Nimr was political. The above is posted by a Yemeni journalist friend of mine, and I think it articulates my POV on the situation perfectly.
 
Yeah I read it earlier. That article doesn't mention him and says nothing to indicate he's AQesque. It just points out the obvious, powerful rich men want to remain powerful and rich.
 
at least my sources have credibility and objectivity
And, let me get this right, talking about Nimr, a Saudi citizen, being killed by the Saudi govt, in a thread with Saudi in the title, when the last 5/6 pages have been talking about Saudi Arabia and the Saudi government...we shouldn't be looking at Saudi sources?
Are you honestly that thick or are you just that biased that you don't even see the stupidity of this?

I have a good analogy for you. From now on I'm only quoting Assad about the the conflict in Syria, and I dare you to raise any doubt about the accuracy of my source!

By the way you seem to trust the Saudi regime way too much for somebody who pretends to be "not a fan of them". ;)

Let's not forget, students of knowledge, and other scholars were also executed in the 46. The way you're whining about it, you'd make it seem like he was the only one of importance killed. There were 17, 18, 19 y.o.s killed as well who committed no crime, but are at the whim of a corrupt family. But who cares about them as they're Sunni, amirite? Your stance is ridiculous.
This is hilarious. The same source you used to "prove" that Al-Nimr is a terrorist didn't only say that those are terrorists, but also specified that they were responsible for the well-documented attacks in Saudi Arabia about a decade ago. And you suddenly decided this time to totally ignore the claims of the Saudi government? What happened to Mr. Speaks Eloquently? ... May be what you're trying to accuse me of is actually your problem? Amirite?

And can you quote my "whining" please? I honestly don't even know how to continue debating with you..


Anyway, here is another source, a little better than the Saudi Foreign minister.
Fact Check: The Truth About Sheikh Nimr

Since arresting leading Shia cleric Sheikh Nimr Baqir al-Nimr in July 2012, the Government of Saudi Arabia has worked to propagate a series of misperceptions aimed at degrading Sheikh Nimr’s record as a peaceful opposition figure. However, a review of Sheikh Nimr’s speeches and opposition activities demonstrates that government claims do not hold up to scrutiny.

Myth: Sheikh Nimr is an agent of Iran.

Fact: Sheikh Nimr has repeatedly called for improvements in the situation of the Saudi Shia and an end to government injustice against them, independent of any outside considerations. His efforts to draw attention to the systematic discrimination suffered by Shia in education, employment, religion, and the judiciary, among other sectors, have earned him a following among many in the predominantly Shia Eastern Province. These same efforts, however, have won him the stern disapproval of the Saudi government, which does not hesitate to label him as a Shia agent of Iran promoting unrest and cross-border sectarian unity.

In a sermon given in spring 2012, after providing a detailed history of how Saudi Shia uprisings predated the Iranian revolution, Sheikh Nimr stated, “We have no ties with Iran or any other country. We are connected to our values, and we will defend them, even if your media continues with its distortions.”

Myth: Sheikh Nimr called for violent resistance to the Saudi government.

Fact: The Saudi government claims that Sheikh Nimr incited violent resistance through his sermons and activities in the Eastern Province. In November 2015, advisors to Saudi Defense Minister Prince Mohammed bin Salman published a statement claiming, “the al-Nimr family members pursued violence and attacks on security forces and government facilities beside terrorizing civilians.” During Sheikh Nimr’s trial, the government accused and convicted him of inciting sectarian strife and encouraging rioting and the destruction of property.

But Sheikh Nimr’s speeches outline a different vision for resistance to the Saudi government. In explaining how the movement should operate, Sheikh Nimr repeatedly emphasized that “the roar of the word” is mightier than the sound of bullets. He explained that authorities would want protesters to use weapons, because the security forces know that they have the military advantage. As a result, Sheikh Nimr insists that the protesters rely on their words – they can defeat the government by adhering to their principles, but they have no chance if they choose the path of violence. In another sermon, he stated, “When we see an armed person in a demonstration, we will tell him this is unacceptable. Go home, we don’t need you.” Both morally and strategically, Sheikh Nimr believed that violence was not the way to achieve results.

Myth: Sheikh Nimr called for foreign intervention in the Eastern Province.

Fact: In March 2009, Saudi Arabia issued an arrest warrant for Sheikh Nimr after he suggested that the Eastern Province would consider secession if the government did not respect the rights and dignity of the Shia community. His words stoked government fears that Saudi Shia would call for foreign assistance in toppling the Saudi government. In 2008, Sheikh Nimr reportedly stated that he would always support “the people” in any conflict with the government and argued for the right of Saudi Shia to seek “external assistance” in self-defense against government aggression. He has never called for any other country to intervene in the Eastern Province or in Saudi affairs.

Myth: Sheikh Nimr violently resisted arrest by Saudi government officials.

Fact: The circumstances surrounding Sheikh Nimr’s arrest remain unclear, with different organizations reporting different versions of the story. According to the Saudi government’s report, Sheikh Nimr confronted security patrols during their pursuit of a wanted suspect who had attacked security forces in the past. Security forces called upon Sheikh Nimr to back down, but he failed to do so, and security forces moved in to make the arrest. While they were placing him in the patrol car, two other cars drove up and started firing on the patrol. In the confusion, Nimr sustained gunshot wounds.

However, local sources have informed ADHRB that the arrest took place differently. In this account, armed officials chased Sheikh Nimr in his car. The chase continued until he crashed his car, at which point authorities forced Sheikh Nimr out of the car and shot him in the leg. He suffered multiple injuries in the incident.

Human rights organizations tend to report that Saudi authorities “violently arrested” Sheikh Nimr, resulting in his injuries.

What is clear is that Sheikh Nimr suffered multiple gunshot wounds and injuries in the course of his arrest. At his trial, the government denied the defense team the opportunity to cross-examine the police officers who had violently arrested Sheikh Nimr.

Myth: Sheikh Nimr is a terrorist.

Fact: The government and the Saudi media have gone to great lengths to paint Sheikh Nimr as a terrorist. Recent media reports have lumped him in with al-Qaeda terrorists and “terrorists from Awamiyya.” One goes so far as to equate him with a leading al-Qaeda theorist, reporting that Nimr and the al-Qaeda member represent two sides of the same coin. Other Saudi officials have accused the Nimr family of terrorizing civilians. The Saudi government tried and convicted Sheikh Nimr in the Specialized Criminal Court (SCC), a national security tribunal ostensibly tasked with prosecuting crimes related to terrorism.

Sheikh Nimr has no connections to any terrorist cells and has not engaged in any violent activities directed toward the Saudi government or Saudi civilians. Since its inception in 2008, Saudi authorities have used the SCC to try numerous activists on terror charges related to their free expression. Similarly, its conviction of Sheikh Nimr stemmed from the expression of dissent through his sermons, and not from any violent activity.

Myth: Sheikh Nimr wants to overthrow the Saudi government.

Fact: Sheikh Nimr’s self-proclaimed main goal is to achieve equality and justice for Saudi Arabia’s Shia minority, not to topple the government. Despite this, the Government of Saudi Arabia leveled a number of charges against Sheikh Nimr based on his sermons and his involvement in the 2011-2012 protest movement. In the early sessions of Sheikh Nimr’s trial, the prosecutor presented a list of 33 charges against him, including giving speeches that threaten national unity and inciting people to demonstrate. The court sentenced Sheikh Nimr to death on 15 October 2014 for breaking allegiance with the ruler, inciting sectarian strife, and encouraging demonstrations, among other charges.

In a 2007 petition to the administrative governor of the Eastern Province, Sheikh Nimr presented a list of demands outlining his vision for reform. In the petition’s preamble, he stated, “We did not demand, do not demand, and will not demand anything threatening the security of the country or its people, or to undermine the pillars of the state, or to shorten its age or weaken its institutions.” His stated demands pertain to respecting religious freedom and achieving equality.

http://www.adhrb.org/2015/12/fact-check-the-truth-about-sheikh-nimr/


Oh and I saw the video. Stop this stupidity and show me which sentence and at which minute did he urge his followers to fight/take up arms/resort to violence?
 
Yemen conflict: Al-Qaeda joins coalition battle for Taiz

The BBC has found evidence in Yemen that troops from a Saudi-led coalition force and al-Qaeda militants are both fighting Houthi rebels in a key battle.

On a visit to the frontline near the city of Taiz, a documentary maker filmed jihadists and pro-government militiamen, supported by UAE soldiers.

...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35630194



When the BBC! is reporting this, then you know it's beyond any debate or discussion.. Of course this has been happening since the very start of the Saudi led war (since the battle in Aden), but it's nice to see that it's finally acknowledged by the supporters of the Saudi coalition.
 
Anyone that did not believe the Suadis and Al Qaeda are fighting together in Yemen is a fool.
I've always said it. The US calling Saudi an ally in the war against terror is a joke and they do themselves a disservice.
 
Yemen conflict: Al-Qaeda joins coalition battle for Taiz

The BBC has found evidence in Yemen that troops from a Saudi-led coalition force and al-Qaeda militants are both fighting Houthi rebels in a key battle.

On a visit to the frontline near the city of Taiz, a documentary maker filmed jihadists and pro-government militiamen, supported by UAE soldiers.

...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-35630194



When the BBC! is reporting this, then you know it's beyond any debate or discussion.. Of course this has been happening since the very start of the Saudi led war (since the battle in Aden), but it's nice to see that it's finally acknowledged by the supporters of the Saudi coalition.
Waiting for @LeChuck to say that they are fighting against each other, but it is all misinformation from the western media.
 
......and he´ll prove it by quoting a saudi minister. :lol:

Yemen is a disaster and a disgrace. Nobody is talking about it. Nobody seems to care, that one of the poorest countries in the world gets bombed back into the 18th century.
 
......and he´ll prove it by quoting a saudi minister. :lol:

Yemen is a disaster and a disgrace. Nobody is talking about it. Nobody seems to care, that one of the poorest countries in the world gets bombed back into the 18th century.

Don't be so sure about that. The Saudi's are getting their asses handed to them by the Houthi insurgency. If you don't mind looking at stuff on liveleak, there is some shockingly, hilariously inept displays by the Saudi forces there.

Dudes in flipflops walking up to Saudi outposts, talking, chatting, laughing and then just wiping the outpost out while the Saudi soldiers are apparently having a nap?
 
Great article about Saudi influence in Washington. Imo a must read for anyone who is interested in american foreign policy in the middle east.



http://www.vox.com/2016/3/21/11275354/saudi-arabia-gulf-washington


How Saudi Arabia captured Washington
America's foreign policy establishment has aligned itself with an ultra-conservative dictatorship that often acts counter to US values and interests. Why?
There was a moment almost exactly one year ago, in March 2015, that revealed some uncomfortable truths about America's relationship with Saudi Arabia.


That month, as Saudi Arabia prepared to launch what would become its disastrous war against Shia rebels in neighboring Yemen, the Saudi ambassador in Washington, Adel al-Jubeir, brought a list of "high-value targets" to CIA Director John Brennan. The Saudis were asking for American support in the war; the list was meant as a show of cooperation.

But when US intelligence agencies checked the list against their own information, they found that many of the targets had little or no military value, according to a report at the time by the Wall Street Journal's Maria Abi-Habib and Adam Entous. Many were civilian structures in or near population centers.

The US warned Saudi Arabia off the targets, and Saudi officials said they complied. But when the air war began, Saudi bombs fell heavily on "hospitals, schools, a refugee camp, and neighborhoods," according to the Journal.

The US initially held back from the war. But soon, in an apparent effort to purchase Saudi acquiescence to the nuclear deal with Iran, the US substantially increased support for the Saudi-led campaign, providing midair refueling, weapons and supplies, targeting information, and 45 dedicated intelligence analysts.

A year after the war began, it is now a disaster, as detailed in a New York Times account. Half of the 6,000 casualties are thought to be civilians; al-Qaeda's hold in Yemen has strengthened; Saudi Arabia has failed in its objective to force the war's end, instead only exacerbating the ongoing violence. The US has helped Saudi Arabia to accelerate the implosion of another Mideast state, with unknown but surely far-reaching implications.

You would think that Washington's foreign policy community — a close-knit network of think tanks, academic outfits, and other institutions that heavily influence the media and whose members frequently rotate into and out of government positions — would be outraged. That community is overwhelmingly focused on the Middle East, prides itself on high-minded humanitarian ideals and far-thinking strategy, and is often critical of President Obama's foreign policy.

"Frankly, think tanks are a very good investment for these guys. It's a low-cost, high-value proposition."
But aside from a few dissident voices, the Washington foreign policy community has been relatively quiet on America's involvement backing Saudi Arabia's war in Yemen. Instead, this week, much of that community expressed outrage over a very different story about the US relationship with Saudi Arabia: Obama, in an interview, had seemed to deride the Saudi leadership and its influence in Washington.

"Free riders aggravate me," Obama told the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg, apparently referring to European and Arab allies generally. He criticized Saudi Arabia's treatment of women and its practice of promoting fundamentalism abroad; he suggested it would have to learn to "share" the Middle East with its adversary, Iran.

Also in the story, administration officials anonymously described Washington, DC's Massachusetts Avenue, where many think tanks have their offices, as "Arab-occupied territory," implying that they are doing the bidding of oil-rich Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia, which provide those think tanks with heavy funding.

Whereas Obama's material support for a disastrous Saudi-led war had drawn little protest in Washington, his words of muted criticism for Saudi Arabia provoked days of sustained outrage. His comments were denounced as "play[ing] the blame game"; "betraying a grievous misunderstanding of what it means to be the world’s No. 1"; "the mark of a careless and clumsy amateur"; "turn[ing] allies overboard"; "overweening arrogance"; blaming others for his own failures; comparable to Donald Trump; and so on.
(...)
 
Great article about Saudi influence in Washington. Imo a must read for anyone who is interested in american foreign policy in the middle east.



http://www.vox.com/2016/3/21/11275354/saudi-arabia-gulf-washington

The Saudis do like to splash the cash don't they. But in reality, the relationship has been fairly continuous since FDR met with Saud back in the day. I don't think any of the current crop of Presidential candidates would do much to change the relationship, except perhaps Sanders.
 
The Saudis do like to splash the cash don't they. But in reality, the relationship has been fairly continuous since FDR met with Saud back in the day. I don't think any of the current crop of Presidential candidates would do much to change the relationship, except perhaps Sanders.

That is pretty much what the article says. It is slightly too long, but it explains in good detail, how lobbying actually works (in general). Money itself is just one part of it. The autor makes a lot of very nuanced points, that are worth understanding.


(...)
America's alliance with the Saudis began in the 1940s, famously, with oil, which has helped align US and Saudi interests ever since. But in those ensuing 75 years, the US and Saudi Arabia have also partnered up on the Cold War, in the 1980s for Afghanistan's proxy war, in the 1990s against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, in the 2000s against Islamist terrorism, and now against Iran. Nearly every major US effort in the Middle East has been in partnership with Saudi Arabia.

"This comes from a very long history," one of the Middle East experts said.

Any aberration from this alliance is thus a significant break with the status quo, and that's necessarily going to be controversial.
But more than that, Saudi Arabia is at the center of a larger status quo of American dominance over a Middle East that, in the past, was far more stable and predictable.

For decades, America has maintained hegemony over much of the Middle East through a system of alliances with Arab states, the most powerful of which has long been Saudi Arabia, as well as with Israel. "Our" Arab dictatorships were reliably pro-American, siding with the US on Israel (if only tacitly), on isolating Iran, and on fighting Islamist terrorists.

This system serves the United States, granting it generally pliant proxies in a region full of valuable resources but also anti-American ideology. It also serves Saudi Arabia, giving the rich but sparsely populated kingdom a powerful protector against its more populous foreign enemies and a useful friend in maintaining monarchical rule long after most royal families had given up or fallen from power.

The people I spoke to disagreed about the degree to which this status quo bias was more or less important than whatever role money might play. Rather, most saw the two as working in conjunction, exacerbating one another. The money, in this view, merely enables Washington's well-known habits for status quo bias and confirmation bias.

(...)
 
That is pretty much what the article says. It is slightly too long, but it explains in good detail, how lobbying actually works (in general). Money itself is just one part of it. The autor makes a lot of very nuanced points, that are worth understanding.

Its also a matter of relationships. Saudi royals have had excellent relations with most American Presidents since the 1940s, which makes it very difficult to view them as adversaries. Still, the US leadership should do a hell of a lot more than they have to pressure them to improve their human rights record.
 
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