Changes in Arabia

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This sounds hard to believe. Even the likes of ISIS and Al Qaeda know what a sacred site that is and wouldn't dare target it.
Not the 1st time there has been blood shed there and I'm not even talking ancient times.

Pakistani Special forces along with specialists from the French Special forces had to go in and take out militants after they seized the Grand Mosque in 1979.

Hundreds and Hundreds were killed.

Post that incident the clergy got even MORE power in Saudi Arabia.
 
Like they give a feck, they just recently blew up Mosul's most historic mosque.

But again this could also be complete BS and them just trying to masquerade their alleged anti-terror credentials.

This is one of the key landmarks in Islam. Just find it hard to fathom it would happen now.
 
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Not the 1st time there has been blood shed there and I'm not even talking ancient times.

Pakistani Special forces along with specialists from the French Special forces had to go in and take out militants after they seized the Grand Mosque in 1979.

Hundreds and Hundreds were killed.

Post that incident the clergy got even MORE power in Saudi Arabia.

Just find it hard to fathom it would happen nowadays. It would cause uproar across the whole Muslim world and forever tarnish the group that were responsible.
 
Admittedly, i am assuming an IS connection, but we've seen their contempt for historical site's on numerous occasions. And in the same way that they've used their extremist doctrine to justify mass cruelty against fellow humans, they'd likely find a way to do so in Mecca.
 
This is one of the key landmarks in Islam. Just find it hard to fathom it would happen now.

Their brand of Islam doesn't believe in idols or landmarks.

Look at the way the Saudi's are currently treating Mecca and the original landmarks there.
 
I don't know what to believe. On the one hand you have extremist groups that are vehemently monotheistic and anti-idolatry, on the other to bomb the grand mosque and that during the last days of Ramadan is unfathomable.

You never know, the Saudis might frame Qatar as behind this...
 
Not the 1st time there has been blood shed there and I'm not even talking ancient times.

Pakistani Special forces along with specialists from the French Special forces had to go in and take out militants after they seized the Grand Mosque in 1979.

Hundreds and Hundreds were killed.

Post that incident the clergy got even MORE power in Saudi Arabia.

Proper fascinating moment in history, good article on it here - http://hegghammer.com/_files/Hegghammer-Lacroix_-_Rejectionist_Islamism_in_Saudi_Arabia.pdf
 


Finally CNN has a reason (Trump) to tell the truth, and state some facts.. I love though the "Only now (with Trump) the US are signing up to the Saudi policy..." Yeah right. :rolleyes:

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Theresa May has been accused of burying a report about Saudi Arabian funding of Islamist extremism in the UK for fear it may damage relations with their ally.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...abia-isis-security-intelligence-a7822121.html
Saudi Arabia has 'clear link' to UK extremism, report says.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40496778
Well, they didn't know about that! And now that they know...

UK approved £283m of arms sales to Saudis after airstrike on Yemen funeral

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...is-continued-after-airstrike-on-yemen-funeral


By the way, why has the word "Saudi" been removed from the title of this thread?
 
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By the way, why has the word "Saudi" been removed from the title of this thread?

Because it referred to the death of Abdullah in 2015, bit out of date.
 
Because it referred to the death of Abdullah in 2015, bit out of date.
But the Saudi invasion of Yemen (which is in fact the main topic in this thread) is still ongoing, and Saudi Arabia has been the main focus in this thread.

Anyway...
 
But the Saudi invasion of Yemen (which is in fact the main topic in this thread) is still ongoing, and Saudi Arabia has been the main focus in this thread.

Anyway...

I'm not sure what the issue is, I just removed "Saudi King dead, Yemen president ousted" since the discussion has moved on to other things since 2015.
 
I'm not sure what the issue is, I just removed "Saudi King dead, Yemen president ousted" since the discussion has moved on to other things since 2015.
What issue? I'm asking why 'Saudi Arabia' isn't in the title when we're talking almost exclusively about Saudi Arabia here. What's so puzzling about my question? We have threads about Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey,... every time the name of the country is in the title, and I thought this was about Saudi Arabia.
 
What issue? I'm asking why 'Saudi Arabia' isn't in the title when we're talking almost exclusively about Saudi Arabia here. What's so puzzling about my question? We have threads about Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey,... every time the name of the country is in the title, and I thought this was about Saudi Arabia.

'Saudi Arabia' was never in the title. Initially the thread was about stuff happening in Yemen too. Hence 'Arabia' (as in the Arabian Peninsula).
 
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-off-bankers-lawyers-flocking-gulf?CMP=fb_gu

Don’t even think about getting the Sunday morning flight from Dubai to Riyadh. The same applies to the Thursday afternoon slots going back.

Both – and many in between – are booked solid by investment bankers, corporate lawyers, accountants, consultants and PR advisers who appreciate the weekend comforts of the UAE, but who know the big business is to being done in Saudi Arabia.

A huge economic transformation is planned for the kingdom, and the fees on offer are well worth a few days of strawberry juice in the puritan luxury of a five-star hotel in the Saudi capital.

Saudi Arabia is lining up a privatisation of state assets that dwarfs the Thatcher “revolution” of the 1980s, and rivals the 1990s dissolution of Soviet assets in scale and significance. It has hung a “for sale” sign on virtually every sector of Saudi economic life: oil, electricity, water, transport, retail, schools and healthcare. Even the kingdom’s football clubs are due to be auctioned off.

The sell-off programme is the central part of the economic transformation plan envisaged under the Vision 2030 strategy. With oil stuck around the $50 mark, Saudi budgets are creaking and deficits are widening. Around $75 is regarded as the break-even point for the national finances.

But in 13 years, if all goes to plan, the kingdom will be financially stable, with a more dynamic economy and society, less reliance on oil and government spending, and with a thriving private sector that releases the pent-up entrepreneurial spirit of Saudi men and (whisper it in the kingdom) Saudi women.

It is, of course, a big “if”, but for an economy stuck in the rentier mentality of the 1930s – when it became a country under the house of Saud and oil was discovered, and which has been ruled by the strict orthodoxy of Wahhabi Islam ever since – this will be nothing less than a revolution.

Rather than the Thatcher and Soviet analogies, some analysts compare it to the capitalist revolution brought about by Chinese moderniser Deng Xiaoping, which changed the economic shape of the world within three decades.

The centrepiece of the privatisation is the planned initial public offering (IPO) of Saudi Aramco, the country’s oil company and the source of all its wealth. If it goes ahead at the $2 trillion valuation hung on it by Mohammed bin Salman – Saudi’s crown prince and architect of Vision 2030 – it will raise $100bn on global markets, with London and New York vying for the lucrative IPO, in addition to Riyadh’s own stock market, the Tadawul.
What do people make of this? Seems like a potentially salutary development. Cultural globalisation might finally make inroads on the peninsula.
 
Talk is cheap. The current regime can't exist without the rentier economy. It makes no sense at all to compare it to China.
All of that sounds like them trying to cover their massive deficit by a mix of cutting spending and attracting FDI.
 
Nice to hear some genuinely positive news from the region, and from Saudi Arabia of all places. I wonder is MbS behind this?
 
Nice to hear some genuinely positive news from the region, and from Saudi Arabia of all places. I wonder is MbS behind this?
This not "genuine positive news". These are headlines they (and their friends like the US) are trying to use to hide the reality from the public (specifically their audience) about what's really going on in Saudi Arabia. It's interesting that @Raoul for example raced to post this 'news' (which is still not implemented by the way) within minutes, but neglected this important and alarming report by HRW from only a few days ago..

Saudi Arabia: Religion Textbooks Promote Intolerance

Textbooks Disparage Sufi, Shia; Label Jews, Christians ‘Unbelievers’

(Beirut) – Saudi Arabia’s school religious studies curriculum contains hateful and incendiary language toward religions and Islamic traditions that do not adhere to its interpretation of Sunni Islam, Human Rights Watch said today. The texts disparage Sufi and Shia religious practices and label Jews and Christians “unbelievers” with whom Muslims should not associate.

A comprehensive Human Rights Watch review of the Education Ministry-produced school religion books for the 2016-17 school year found that some of the content that first provoked widespread controversy for violent and intolerant teachings in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks remains in the texts today, despite Saudi officials’ promises to eliminate the intolerant language.

“As early as first grade, students in Saudi schools are being taught hatred toward all those perceived to be of a different faith or school of thought,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “The lessons in hate are reinforced with each following year.”

This research was part of a broader investigation into Saudi officials and religious clerics’ use of hate speech and incitement to violence for an upcoming Human Rights Watch report. The reviewed curriculum, entitled al-tawhid, or “Monotheism,” consisted of 45 textbooks and student workbooks for the primary, middle, and secondary education levels. Human Rights Watch did not review additional religion texts dealing with Islamic law, Islamic culture, Islamic commentary, or Qur’an recitation.

The United States Department of State first designated Saudi Arabia a “country of particular concern” under the International Religious Freedom Act for particularly severe violations in 2004. It has continued to do so every year since. The designation should trigger penalties, including economic sanctions, arms embargoes, and travel and visa restrictions. But the US government has had a waiver on penalties in place since 2006. The waiver allows the US to continue economic and security cooperation with Saudi Arabia unencumbered.

Saudi Arabia has faced pressure to reform its school religion curriculum since the September 11 attacks, particularly from the US, after it was revealed that 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens. Saudi officials have said repeatedly they will carry out these reforms, although past reviews of the curriculum over the last dozen years have shown these promises to be hollow. In February 2017, Saudi’s education minister admitted that a “broader curriculum overhaul” was still necessary, but did not offer a target date for when this overhaul should be completed.

Saudi Arabia does not allow public worship by adherents of religions other than Islam. Its public school religious textbooks are but one aspect of an entire system of discrimination that promotes intolerance toward those perceived as “other.”

As Saudi Arabia moves towards implementing its Vision 2030 goals to transform the country culturally and economically, it should address the hostile rhetoric that nonconforming Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, and non-Muslim expatriate workers face in Saudi Arabia, said Human Rights Watch.

Saudi Arabia’s al-tawhid, “Monotheism,” curriculum harshly criticizes practices and traditions closely associated with both Shia Islam and Sufism. In many cases, the curriculum labels practices, such as visiting the graves of prominent religious figures, and the act of intercession, by which Shias and Sufis supplicate to God through intermediaries, as evidence of shirk, or polytheism, that will result in the removal from Islam and eternal damnation.

The curriculum repeatedly condemns building mosques or shrines on top of graves, a clear reference to Shia or Sufi pilgrimage sites. The third book in the five-part secondary level curriculum, for example, contains a section, entitled, “People’s Violation of the Teachings of the Prophet with Graves,” stating that “many people have violated what the prophet forbade in terms of bida’ or ‘illicit innovations’ with graves and committed what he prohibited and because of that fell into illicit innovations or the greatest polytheism” by “building mosques and shrines on top of graves.” The text also states that people use shrines as a place to commit other acts of illicit innovations or polytheism, including: “praying at them, reading at them, sacrificing to them and those [interred] in them, seeking help from them, or making vows by them…”.




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Ministry of Education, Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Secondary Semester Program, Level Three, 2016-17, p. 104

The second semester of the seventh-grade text expresses similar sentiment, saying that “those who make the graves of prophets and the righteous into mosques are evil-natured.”

Toward the end of one chapter, “The Role of Reformers in Declaring and Defending the Correct Doctrine,” in a secondary-level textbook, a short glossary lists practices of those who have deviated from correct religious practice. It describes Sufism as “a perverse path that began with the claim of asceticism, or severe self-discipline, then entered into illicit innovation, misguidedness, and exaggeration in reverence to the righteous.”




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Saudi Ministry of Education, Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Secondary Semester Program, Level One, 2016-17, p. 40

The curriculum reserves its harshest criticisms for Jews, Christians, and people of other faiths, often describing them as kuffar, or “unbelievers.”

In one fifth-grade second semester textbook, the curriculum calls Jews, Christians, and Al Wathaniyeen, or “pagans,” the “original unbelievers” and declares that it is the duty of Muslims to excommunicate them: “For whoever does not [excommunicate them], or whoever doubts their religious infidelity is himself an unbeliever.”




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Saudi Ministry of Education, Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Fifth Grade, Second Semester, 2016-17, p. 55

In a chapter listing markers by which one can recognize the approach of the Day of Resurrection, one passage states: “The Hour will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews, and Muslims will kill the Jews.”




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Saudi Ministry of Education, Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Secondary Course, Level Two, 2016-17, p. 102.

A recurring and alarming lesson in the curriculum warns against imitating, associating with, or joining the “unbelievers” in their traditions and practices. One passage rejects and denounces the Sufi practice of celebrating the birth of the prophet, accusing Sufis of imitating Christians, i.e. “unbelievers,” in their celebration of the birth of Jesus.




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Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Fifth Grade, Second Semester, 2016-17, p. 279


[Translation: Celebrating the prophet’s birth in the spring of every year is prohibited; for it is a new innovation and is in imitation of the Christian celebration of what is known as the birth of Christ.]

In another chapter, “Loyalty to Unbelievers,” the text explicitly calls on Muslims to reserve loyalty to God, the prophet, and other believers and to express hostility and antagonism toward “unbelievers.” It warns Muslims that by imitating “unbelievers” or even joining them in their celebrations, one is at risk of expressing loyalty to them, and worse even, becoming one of them.




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Saudi Ministry of Education, Al-Tawhid, Student Book, Secondary Course, Level One, 2016-17, p. 165




The Saudi government’s official denigration of other religious groups, combined with its ban on public practice of other religions, could amount to incitement to hatred or discrimination. International human rights law requires countries to prohibit “[a]ny advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence.”

Article 18 of the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) states: “Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include the freedom to have or adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or in private, to manifest his religion or relief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.”

“Saudi Arabia’s officials should stop denigrating other people’s personal beliefs,” Whitson said. “After years of reform promises there is apparently still little room for tolerance in the country’s schools.”


https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/09/13/saudi-arabia-religion-textbooks-promote-intolerance

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And these are their own public government schools, not even what's being taught at mosques or religious schools, or what's being taught in their funded institutions/mosques/organizations around the world.


To be honest, for me, this report is far more "negative" and alarming news for the whole world, than a simple issue they're trying hard to portray as some "positive side" (if implemented) of Saudi Arabia.
 
Danny1982 said:
This not "genuine positive news".

I disagree. I can be happy for Saudi women without changing my view of the Saudi regime.
 
Yeah it's a weird thing to say, a step in the right direction.
 
I disagree. I can be happy for Saudi women without changing my view of the Saudi regime.
You didn't say I'm happy for the Saudi women, you said genuine positive news from Saudi Arabia. It's not. It's in reality not a big deal.

Great to see that Saudi women can drive now. Weird how some think this is a bad thing.
:) Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Why don't you answer what I said. I didn't say it's "bad" did I? ;) It's definitely not important though, considering the size of the problems Saudi Arabia is creating for the world, most importantly their crucial role in spreading global terrorism, which it's still doing in an even increasing magnitude. This is just a cover title to hide the truth, or the full picture, from the public, just like you and the US media hid the report above from the public. Disinformation and propaganda.

I really loved how you jumped within minutes to post it here though, I was actually waiting for you to post it, because I know how you work here. :)

Yeah it's a weird thing to say, a step in the right direction.
There is no direction. This is just an inconsequential issue that's being used to hide the real problems, which are showing no progress at all.
 
Stop talking nonsense and derailing. Saudi women being able to drive benefits them aswell as their economy.

It's definitely not inconsequential for those women.

And also doesn't mean the country doesn't have other issues.
 
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Stop talking nonsense and derailing. Saudi women being able to drive benefits them aswell as their economy.

It's definitely inconsequential for those women.

And also doesn't mean the country doesn't have other issues.
You didn't comment on the more alarming report about inciting hate and violence in the school books. What's your opinion about it? And which do you think is the more important issue to comment on?
 
You didn't say I'm happy for the Saudi women, you said genuine positive news from Saudi Arabia. It's not. It's in reality not a big deal.

:rolleyes: My god you're tiresome sometimes. Ok let me rephrase what is obvious to everyone else who read my initial reaction to the news: I believe this is "genuinely positive news" because it is a cause close to the hearts of many brave Saudi women who have campaigned for the right to drive for a long time, and who I now see celebrating this news - it may not be a big deal for people such as yourself, but it is for them.

I am able to hold this position independently of my opinion on any other stuff going on in Saudi Arabia right now.
 
I used to teach a lot of Saudis and they would tell me the reasons why women couldn't drive (don't know if this is what's actually said or not)... things like that they might get distracted by the thought of having babies and crash.
 
You didn't comment on the more alarming report about inciting hate and violence in the school books. What's your opinion about it? And which do you think is the more important issue to comment on?
Both are important issues, as @2cents pointed out women in SA have been campaigning for years for this basic freedom, some have even gone to jail for the cause, it's a big issue.

As for the intolerance, of course its not acceptable.

However issues such as intermediaries, praying at graves etc there are differences of opinions within Sunni schools regarding this issue and they they are entitled hold their own position. But what i don't agree is for them to have intolerant views of other schools of thought.
 
:) Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? Why don't you answer what I said. I didn't say it's "bad" did I? ;) It's definitely not important though, considering the size of the problems Saudi Arabia is creating for the world, most importantly their crucial role in spreading global terrorism, which it's still doing in an even increasing magnitude. This is just a cover title to hide the truth, or the full picture, from the public, just like you and the US media hid the report above from the public. Disinformation and propaganda.

I really loved how you jumped within minutes to post it here though, I was actually waiting for you to post it, because I know how you work here. :)

C'mon Danny you and I know this is a positive development. Just pretend Saudi is a Shi'a country and it will all make sense.
 
:rolleyes: My god you're tiresome sometimes. Ok let me rephrase what is obvious to everyone else who read my initial reaction to the news: I believe this is "genuinely positive news" because it is a cause close to the hearts of many brave Saudi women who have campaigned for the right to drive for a long time, and who I now see celebrating this news - it may not be a big deal for people such as yourself, but it is for them.

I am able to hold this position independently of my opinion on any other stuff going on in Saudi Arabia right now.
First of all, I know, not sometimes, always for people like Raoul, 2mufc0 and even you lately (for different reasons)...

Second, not for myself, Saudi Arabia has no direct effect on myself personally apart from me being part of the world that is being destroyed by the Saudi sponsored global terrorism.

I don't expect you to change your opinion, I'm simply giving my opinion about the big picture (which is actively being hidden), and what's the real aim of all this. You can disagree with me, and say "no this is great news, Saudi Arabia is changing! They're moving in the right direction!". However the harsh reality is very different, and there are many ways through which you can see which direction in reality Saudi Arabia is going.

C'mon Danny you and I know this is a positive development. Just pretend Saudi is a Shi'a country and it will all make sense.
What I really know is why you posted this within minutes, but completely ignored (just like the rest of the US media) the other report (which is far more serious and alarming and a giant step in the wrong direction). :)

And just pretend if Putin did something positive, ... You know the rest.
 
First of all, I know, not sometimes, always for people like Raoul, 2mufc0 and even you lately (for different reasons)...

Care to enlighten me, because I've no idea what you're implying here?

"no this is great news, Saudi Arabia is changing! They're moving in the right direction!"

I have not said that.
 
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